But if we let down “Higher Truth” and if we look on the plate:
- we can discuss just one problem from many problems which will follow us, if we neglect varnasrama.

MEMBERS OF OUR MOVEMENT IN OLDAGE.
1. Its not ok, if a devotee, who has served for 25-30 years in the temples, should start to work at the age of 55-60, to pay a rent and cover all other expences.
2. Its not ok, if a devotee who was a brahmacarie (-ini) for 25-30 years in different temples/BBT, should marry at the age of 55-60, because no one can take care about him/her in the oldage and when he/she is sick.
3. Its not ok, if a sankirtana devotee, who was ill, should be left alone in the house for olders.
4. Its not ok …

Actually - there was a beautifull speach by Bhakti Tirtha Swami maharaja, before He left this planet - when He was laying with cancer, and so many devotees helped him - He was thinking about those devotees who are not Gurus and who didnt get any help…

So many problems and questions arises from that simple ignoring of varnasrama simple truths. Because reality around us calls - deva dvija guru prajna pujanam.

So - this is varnasrama. And if we came back to the topic - womens should never be left alone without father, husband or sons. This is a care about womens, this is protection of womens. And new division of women diksa gurus will never be able to replace protection, prescribed by The Lord.

ys
Nataraja dasa

From The Harmonist, May 1932, issue number 11. Article originally titled, Sree Chaitanya in South India. Pages 325-326. By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

“The world stands in no need of any reformer. The world has a very competent person for guiding its minutest happenings. The person who determines that there is scope for reform of the world, himself stands in need of reform. The world goes on in its own perfect way. No person can deflect it even the breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for it by providence. When we perceive any change being actually effected in the course of events of this world by the agency of any particular individual, we must know very well that the agent possesses no real power at any stage. The agent finds himself driven forward by a force belonging to a different category from himself. The course of the world does not require to be changed by the agency of any person. What is necessary is to change our outlook on this world. This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of his mercy. The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee. As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, he clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance. It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, whose supreme necessity and nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the eternally continuing mercy of the Supreme Lord.”

It appears through your comments that you are still seeing the jiva as the doer of activities. Krishna gives various instructions in the Gita to those on that stage of spiritual evolution (i.e., vaidhi sadhana), however there are higher truths of reality revealed in sastra.

Mahaprabhu incarnated to give the most direct and efficient means of self realization. Although 9 processes of sadhana bhakti are described by the 6 Goswamis for those in a conditioned state, Mahaprabhu only emphasized the need for 2…sravanam and kirtanam. He did not in any way say that varnashrama dharma was necessary for self realization…nor has a single previous acharya.

Even though the teachings of the Gita and the Bhagavatam ask us to see Krishna in everything we encounter, still many devotees see the world around them as a manifestation of mahamaya. The message of the Bhagavata exhorts us to see Krishna in all of our experiences in this world. Krishna tells us we should adopt a worldview wherein God is seen as the substance and controller of reality, therefore enabling us to be in communion with God at all times through all we experience. Thus, one can see and fully understand that everything in this world is occurring exactly according to Krishna’s plan. Varnashrama dharma does not exist in any correct shape or form today because that is not Krishna’s plan. Mahaprabhu did not see the importance of VAD implementation in this age, nor did the direct followers of Mahaprabhu.

Once you see that Krishna is much more a direct part of your life and experiences, and you start to see Krishna’s hand behind all you experience, your desire to change and control the state of the world to various degrees will come to a grinding halt.

Dear BBD prabhu.
I will left to a side your comment “You have zero experience of what varnashrama…” .
You have no clue who I am and about my life.

Even if someone have zero experience, He has a right to choose and perform prescribed varnasrama duties, even if we all are varnasankaras and mlecchas and yavanas - because we will do this for Krishna, because Srila Prabhupada wanted that.

Considering our specific varnasrama duties, we should know that there is no better engagement for us than performing devotional service based on varnasrama dharma religious principles; and so there is no need for hesitation.

Considering all aspects, we have no reason to refrain from sva-dharma.

Yes, even if someone is completely surrendered unto Krishna, Mukunda, and has a right to give up all other duties (because he is no longer a debtor, nor he is obliged to anyone — not the demigods, nor the sages, nor the people in general, nor kinsmen, nor humanity, nor forefathers) - even then, he has no reason to not follow rules and regulations - as Srila Prabhupada showed.

Because, if we do not perform our religious varnasrama duties, then we will certainly incur sins for neglecting our duties and thus we will lose our reputation as a devotees.

People will always speak of our infamy, and for a respectable persons, dishonor is worse than death.

Lord Sri Krishna directly says that we should perform our duties for the sake of performing our duties, because He desires that!

There are two classes of men. Some of them are full of polluted material things within their hearts, and some of them are materially free. Krishna consciousness is equally beneficial for both of these persons. Those who are full of dirty things can take to the line of Krishna consciousness for a gradual cleansing process, following the regulative principles of devotional service. Those who are already cleansed of the impurities may continue to act in the same Krishna consciousness so that others may follow their exemplary activities and thereby be benefited. Foolish persons or neophytes in Krishna consciousness often want to retire from activities without having knowledge of Krishna consciousness.

Our desire to ignore varnasrama dharma activities are not approved by the Lord. One need only know how to act. To reject our sva dharma duties and to sit aloof making a show of Krishna consciousness is less important than actually engaging in the field of activities for the sake of Krishna.

ys

You said: “Lets be straight.
What dos it mean - bhakti?”

Bhakti simply means an attitude of devotion, adoration, and love. Sentiments of bhakti cannot be checked by anything external. Bhakti in it’s pure meaning is about emotion, attitude, mood, mindset, etc.

You said: “Looks like a varnasrama dharma is like a poison for most of the peoples. But reread please Bhagavad Gita”

You are proving my previous point. You have zero experience of what varnashrama actually is, or how it works. But still, you are proposing this ancient concept, of which you have no idea about. It’s similar to a modern day priest explaining how an ashvamedha yajna is performed properly.

Krsna says in the Gita that everything is to be given up as external except for…

BG 18.5: Acts of sacrifice, charity and penance are not to be given up; they must be performed. Indeed, sacrifice, charity and penance purify even the great souls.

The rest is ultimately unimportant, Krsna says to give up everything else…sarva-dharmān parityajya…abandon all varieties of dharma. Mahaprabhu even rejected varnashrama dharma as proposed by Ramananda as the means to prema bhakti. Mahaprabhu said varnashrama dharma was external to Krishna prema. Mahaprabhu’s mission was not to implement some ancient concept of varnashrama dharma. His mission is simply described as this:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.4

“May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Śrīmatī Śacī-devī be transcendentally situated in the innermost chambers of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has appeared in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most sublime and radiant mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.”

Lets be straight.
What dos it mean - bhakti?
Did bhakti means falling gurus, jumping disciples, free mixing between boys and girls, unwanted kids, divorces and marriages by agreement? Did bhakti means to be elephants and elephantinis?
Did bhakti means kids who do not want anymore anything with Krishna Consciousness and broken hearts of rejected relatives…
Did bhakti means lone elders without any help, late marriages in the time, when one should accept vanaprastha, brahmacaries businessmans and grihasthas beggars?

Are we apasampradayis?

One can say : IF YOU HAVE A BHAKTI - YOU WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM IN FOLLOWING VARNASRAMA DHARMA. And one can say opposite - If you will have no problem in following varnasrama dharma by prolonged period of time, you will have no problem in following 4 regulative principles, and you will have no problem with your Bhakti.

Looks like a varnasrama dharma is like a poison for most of the peoples. But reread please Bhagavad Gita - varnasrama is like a happiness in sattva guna. Yes - its like a poison in the beginning, but in th end its a sweet like a nectar.

May be the problem of modern days mentality is that we want everything NOW, immediately and if we have no resources - lets go to the bank. But its do not work like that. At least anymore.
Or?

ys
Nataraja dasa

It doesn’t mean that the verse can’t be used to support female guru issue, as Srila Prabhupada did so himself. Yet even that conversation with Prof. O’Connell is open to interpretation in the light of the current situation - GBC acknowledges that some women devotees already act as siksha gurus but none yet been approved as initiating spiritual masters.

Obviously, even if all the gurus are equal, in practice some differences are always there and need to be observed, and that is open to interpretation.

We should consider the context of stri-dharma for the Vedic age, i.e. in pre-modern cultures women were vastly more vulnerable to exploitation than they are now. The rules for women were based upon that reality. If you lived in a society with little law enforcement compared to modern societies, and with much less government support for the people in general, the weakest in that society were clearly at a much greater disadvantage than the weakest in modern societies. In order to protect women, the elderly, and children, in pre-modern societies, family based clans and tribes were the basis for support in those societies.

In the modern world most people rely on the intimidation of police and all the legal protections of the modern world to keep them feeling somewhat safe from rogues. With modern weaponry it doesn’t matter if you’re a woman or a man, everyone is equally vulnerable or equally threatening, which is why guns have been called “the great equalizer.”

Ultimately, varnashrama dharma is an ancient social structure without a single functioning model existing showing how it all works. This ancient concept of varnashrama dharma really has no place in modern western societies, and ultimately no bearing on bhakti.

Varnashrama dharma doesn’t exist today…can we say that there is no bhakti in today’s world because of the absence of varnashrama dharma? No.

In which types of societies are women least protected and most susceptible to exploitation in the grossest sense? All the statistics and research show that societies that suppress women’s equal social opportunities have the worst record (India, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, South Africa, etc.).

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/m.....93942.html

http://m.thestar.com/news/worl.....-is-common

If you look into how often Prabhupada mentioned “stri-dharma”, you won’t find a single reference outside of a passing reference in the Sanskrit of one verse in the Bhagavatam, and one reference by Hridayananda Maharaja in the 11th canto. That may not be everything Prabhupada ever said, but it shows very clearly how important Prabhupada saw the concept for his teachings, i.e for ISKCON.

It appears that many current ISKCON devotees think that Prabhupada vigorously promoted “stri-dharma” as a template for his female disciples, and for women in general. In fact, it’s a fairly recent introduction in the ISKCON community, and it fools people into thinking Prabhupada supported the wholesale subjugation of women. Although Prabhupada made several statements about a woman’s role in society, he made exceptions for his female disciples and all those interested in Krsna Consciousness. For example, he allowed women to enter the brahmacari (ini) ashrama and live as monks and priests…this is clearly outside of any context of varnashrama dharma we know of.

“Another examination will be held sometimes in 1971 on the four books, Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam, Teachings of Lord Caitanya, and Nectar of Devotion. One who will pass this examination will be awarded with the title of Bhaktivedanta. I want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta, so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975, all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the numbers of the generations. That is my program.” (Letter to Hamsadutta 01/03/69)

Dear prabhu. I didnot say that womens are restricted from being guru. Opposit - with all my heart I stand for:

vaco vegam manasah krodha vegam jihva-vegam udaropastha-vegam
etan vegan yo visaheta dhirah sarvam apimam prthivim sa sisyat

A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind’s demands, the actions of anger and the urges of the tongue, belly and genitals is qualified to make disciples all over the world.

But - we speak about establishing varnasrama dharma - as Srila Prabhupada wanted. We discuss and hopefully we will continue discuss this topic till some important conclusions AND WE WILL START ACT accordingly. There are WORDS which are very, very, very important.
…is qualified to make disciples…
Its the same like with ISKCON - its International Society FOR Krishna Consciousness. If we are in ISKCON - this dosnt mean, that we are somehow in Krishna Consciousness by definition. But if we stand for it - so, its our home. And as I understand - we stand for ISKCON. Therefore we discuss.
IS QUALIFIED TO MAKE DISCIPLES dosnt mean that this person will make disciples or should make disciples.

Chaste wife, perfect stridharma practitioner is qualified to make disciples - no doubt, according qualification standart from Sri Upadesamritas first verse. Will She? We should ask Matajis, who are stridharma practitioners in our movement. They are qualified to speak about it.

For example - many devotees has a big problems with womens diksa guru issue. And not because they are against. But because they have a chaste wifes.

To know, what kind of rascals we are, and to know, what kind of tapasya our wifes perform with theyr lifes, to be able to live with us; To see everyday, how they perform theyr duties, despite all this socioeconomical system, which make normal family life allmost impossible - How we can go and listen to some Women Diksa Gurus, who will teach others in seminars/festivals/lectures how to live in family life, if those womendiksagurus had failed with qualification to back up the talk with theyr own lifes? How?

This is the problem - and not only because its on the border of aparadhas - towards women diksa gurus. But because its allready a aparadha - neglecting a stridharma womens in our movement…

If I am wrong - please correct me.

ys
Nataraja dasa

What is the duty of a woman ? SB 7 canto chapter 11 text 29 states it very clearly …so no matter how it is turned and twisted without referring to sastra these arguments if not based on sastra has zero value..Womens duty is never as diksa Guru, this is adharma