Swedish man (3): Is there free will?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. Therefore if you misuse your freedom, then you become punishable. The government gives you freedom, but if you misuse your freedom, if you violate the laws, then you are criminal. Yes? >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.1-3 — Stockholm, September 10, 1973

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Why God gave to man free will if He knew the man would fall down in the material world?
Prabhupada: If you have no free will, then you are a stone. The stone has no free will. You want to be stone? Then you must be, must have free will. But don’t misuse your free will. But don’t try to become stone. That is not life. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 15.15 — August 5, 1976, New Mayapur (French farm)

Hayagriva: Why can’t we have free will and at the same time…
Prabhupada: Free will means…
Hayagriva: …infallible judgment?
Prabhupada: Free will means that you can act wrongly. That is free will. Unless there is chance of doing wrong or right, there is no question of free will. Where is free will then? If I act only one sided, that means I have no free will. Because we act sometimes wrongly, that means free will.
Hayagriva: A man may know better but still act wrongly.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Hayagriva: Yes.
Prabhupada: But that is free will. He misuses his. Just like a thief, he knows that his stealing, it is bad, but still he does it. That is free will. He cannot check his greediness, so in spite of his knowing that he is doing wrong thing — he will be punished, he knows; he has seen another thief, he was punished, he was put into prison — everything he knows, but still he steals. Why? Misuse of free will. Unless there is misuse of free will, there is no question of free will.>> Ref. VedaBase => Rene Descartes
(to be continued)

Hrdayananda: So Prabhupada, if some people say, “Well, I have no free will,” that means that they are actually lazy.
Prabhupada: Yes. You have got free will, but must utilize it properly. That is free will. Free will means to utilize it properly. That is free will.
Svarupa Damodara: So people… Sometimes Krsna interferes in the free will?
Prabhupada: Ah?
Svarupa Damodara: Our free will.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Svarupa Damodara: God interferes.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is Krsna’s special favor. Because by your free will you are going to hell. If Krsna interferes, that is Krsna’s special favor. Just like a child is going to touch fire by free will, and father, “Eh, don’t do it.” That is his special favor. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk — December 4, 1973, Los Angeles

From these quotes it is rather clear that our natural sense of free will is not a total illusion. We may say that it is a limited free will, because there are inherent limits to our options, yet the opportunity to make various relevant choices in life is really there. Otherwise, how could we be creating good or bad karmic reactions? Our choices may be influenced by many factors, such as the prevailing modes of material nature, yet free will is a reality.
Just like a sailor is not completely free to pick any course he likes, because he is limited by the wind, currents, lay of the land, the type of craft he is sailing, his skill - still, he can steer many different courses, thus affecting his ultimate destination.

Our friend Keshava Krishna das attempted to explain the place of free will for the jiva soul, but I think there may be a slight misunderstanding. The jiva souls are part of Krishna, and they do possess free will…that reinforces the possibility for the soul to remember and lovingly serve Krishna or to turn to a life of self-centeredness. However, Sri Krishna is the Supreme Controller of His creation. eko bahunam yo vidhadhati kaman. He is aware of our will or desire and He alone can arrange the environment for events to take place. But, He does not take away our free will. This is the basis for love.
In the Bhagavad Gita, it is clear that the material nature is not under the control of the jiva soul (BG 13.21). Rather, due to proper or improper attachment and knowledge, the jiva soul is responsible for their own happiness and distress. That is dependent upon the jiva soul. Thus, the acharyas recommend Krishna consciousness…seeing everything in relation to Krishna, which is the truth. Happiness and distress are not the eternal condition of the soul, whereas the constitutional nature of the soul is qualitatively like that of God, ie, Sat Chit Ananda Vigraha. Other conceptions are like dreamlike, phantasmagoria, as Srila Prabhupad would often say.
So, we must not diminish the potency of the free will of the jiva soul, even as we are always dependent upon Krishna’s mercy to arrange the environment for us. However, Krishna is not an order supplier, since His plan may be inscrutable to us. Still, we understand that Krishna becomes virtually a servant to the bhakta out of love and affection, just as Krishna became a Charioteer for Arjuna. That is Krishna’s nature and mercy. Love is a two way street, and every attempt we make to approach Krishna is not overlooked by Him.
Pusta Krishna das

I think it is interestingly presented that for the atheistic scientific there is a problem of how to blame wrongdoers. I remember reading a very thoughtful essay by (atheistic) philosopher David Hume on this subject in college, and in law school a friend of mine presented a paper based on writings of Nietzsche that our sense of blame and punishment of criminals was primitive and illogical.

In yesterday’s Bhagavatam class we were reading Lord Manu’s instructions to Dhruva Maharaja to persuade him to stop slaughtering all the Yaksas. Manu said (4.11.22):

“The differentiation among varieties of life and their suffering and enjoyment is explained by some to be the result of karma. Others say it is due to nature, others due to time, others due to fate, and still others say that it is due to desire.”

Today we will read the next verse (4.11.23), which gives the Bhakti-Vedanta conclusion: “The Absolute Truth, Transcendence, is never subject to understanding of imperfect sensory endeavor, nor is He subject to direct experience. He is the master of varieties of energies, like the full material energy, and no one can understand His plans or actions; therefore it should be concluded that although He is the original cause of all causes, no one can know Him by mental speculation.”

Krsna is the ultimate cause of everything, and yet He is not responsible for the injustice and suffering found in the material creation, and is always blameless. Those who turn their backs on Him are immediately placed (by His grace) in the state of forgetfulness wherein material actions and reactions under the control of material nature and her laws take place. The suffering and injustice here should remind us that this is not the enlightened part of God’s creation, but the dungeon meant for those criminals who are determined to remain in ignorance. We have to get out, which is only possible by bhakti.

“The embodied spirit, master of the city of his body, does not create activities, nor does he induce people to act, nor does he create the fruits of action. All this is enacted by the modes of material nature.”

“Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone’s sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of ignorance which covers their real knowledge.”

“When however, on is enlightened with the knowledge by which nescience is destroyed, then his knowledge reveals everything, as the sun lights up everything in the daytime.”

(B.G. 5.14-16)

It reminds me of the story of the Punishment and Reward of Kali, told by Suta Goswami in the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam. King Pariksit tours his kingdom to prevent any trace of injustice, but then he comes upon the personality of Kali Yuga, who appears as a low class man dressed as a king, torturing a cow (mother Earth) and a bull (the personality of Dharma). He has already broken three legs of the bull, representing cleanliness, mercy and austerity, and Dharma is tottering on the last remaining pillar of righteousness, which is truthfulness.

Pariksit Maharaja immediately acts to punish the sinful Kali, but first he asks the victim to give evidence against the perpetrator. It is the highest duty of the pious ruling king to give protection to the law-abiding persons and to chastise those who violate the law.

But the Personality of Righteousness, Dharma, does not give straightforward testimony blaming the Personality of Kali Yuga. Instead he says, “…it is very difficult to ascertain the particular miscreant who has caused our sufferings, because we are bewildered by all the different opinions of theoretical philosophers.” Some declare that one’s own self is responsible for his personal happiness and distress, others say that superhuman powers (demigods) are responsible, and others (like modern scientists) say material nature is the ultimate cause. Still others believe that the cause of distress cannot be ascertained by argument, known by imagination, nor expressed by words.

After hearing the bull’s explanation of why he would not identify the perpetrator of these crimes against him, Pariksit Maharaja recognized that he was Religion Personified, for no one else could understand such fine intricacies of the codes of religion.

“A devotee’s conclusion is that no one is directly responsible for being a benefactor or mischief-monger without the sanction of the Lord…in both cases he takes it for granted that either benefit or loss is God-sent, and thus it is His grace.”

Of course this is never used by a devotee to excuse his own misdeeds, nor did the dutiful King Pariksit abandon his duty to punish the law-breaking Personality of Kali. But the devotee, understanding the truth about the causes and effects within this world, is personally very tolerant of reverses and accepts so-called suffering as the grace of God.

Part One:

I was expecting some sort of opposition. I had read through Srila Prabhupada’s various statements and responses to the question of free will, and still wrote this brief article.

The fact is: (BG 7.13): “Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.”

And: (BG 7.27): “O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, bewildered by dualities arisen from desire and hate.”

Within this deluded state, and not knowing who the Lord is, or what is proper freedom, all bound beings are acting out their so-called free will. We will notice how Srila Prabhupada often uses the examples of free will in the context of being bound.

When we are bound, we use our free will, just as Srila Prabhupada says, but it is still under the delusion of material energy, which makes it bound will. It remains bound until we make a choice to become free: (BG 7.28): “Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life and whose sinful actions are completely eradicated are freed from the dualities of delusion, and they engage themselves in My service with determination.”

By receiving some contact with Bhakti-Devi, knowingly or unknowingly, the path to real freedom is opened. We can only speak of real free will when someone engages in Bhakti, free from delusion.

One example cited by Kulapavana Prabhu citing Srila Prabhupada is the choice of a thief. The thief knows he will be punished if he steals because he knows he is bound by his desires to do so. Suppose one day the thief gives up stealing and gets a normal honest job, still that choice made, is under the delusion we all are subject to.

His apparent free will to become honest was still a bound choice, because he still remains in delusion. If however, he might have unknowingly given a donation to a sadhu in a previous life – which would have been an act of gradual freedom - and this sukrti helps him to want to become a devotee, then we can say that his choices are in the direction of freedom.

If we look at Srila Prabhupada’s use of the term ‘free will’ there is no argument. But the free will is still subjected to the same delusion. While under this delusion the free will is not truly free, it is bound by delusion. This is why he usually referred to the “misuse” of it. “Don’t become a stone… don’t degrade oneself…” and so on.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Part Two:

If anyone is convinced they are acting freely while bound, then: (BG 3.27): “The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.”

We cannot escape the fact that there is only apparent free will acted out while being in delusion, until true free will is displayed in devotion to the Lord. So there is no contradiction to Srila Prabhupada’s words. Rather, we should see his words on free will within the backdrop of delusion.

In any case, Srila Prabhupada often responded in kind to the nature of questioning and for the sake of conversation or argument. If we analyse his other quotes on free will, we’ll also see how he placed the concept of free will in the context of delusion or conditioning.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

There was a well written article in “The Spiritual Scientist” clarifying this point. Destiny determines the consequences of our actions, not the actions themselves. This is a statement made by Vidura, which clearly says that the jiva has free will to act; but he has no freewill to choose the consequences of the action.

Your servant
Muralidhara dasa

Here is another way of looking at how the free will we are accustomed to is not real free will, but bound will. Let us categorise into two groups: (1) Bound free will, and (2) Free, free will.

The free will Srila Prabhupada usually speaks of in response to questions of free will, come in the category of bound free will. He emphasises how we each have our minute independent. Once having chosen to turn our backs to the Lord, the curtain of delusion covers us all.

Under the influence of delusion, our bound free will causes further bondage and consequence. The free will mentioned in comment 8 refers also to bound free will. The simple logic is that anyone who is bound, will commit further bound results from bound free will.

A free agent, on the other hand, cannot cause bound results. A free agent can only cause acts of freedom. So this comes in the second category of free, free will. Anyone who accepts the lotus feet of such a free soul will also act freely.

It is worth remembering that a bound person cannot produce free results, for his so-called free will is bound by delusion. Any ‘free will’ that causes further bondage or consequence, can never be true free will. This is why there is no such thing as free will in the first category of Bound Free Will.

If these differences are understood then we can better get to grips with the notion of free will as it should be. Otherwise, we’ll belabour ourselves with incompatible explanations.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Dear KK Prabhu, you write: “If these differences are understood then we can better get to grips with the notion of free will as it should be. Otherwise, we’ll belabour ourselves with incompatible explanations.”
‘Incompatible explanations’ are often a matter of opinion. It can be argued, based on Srila Prabhupada’s statements, that our fall into this material world is a result of exercising of our free will. Thus your claim that “a free agent can only cause acts of freedom” is not quite true. We were a free agent once as well, and our will was very free inddeed, but look at us now… Only Lord Krsna is never subject to illusion - everyone else, from Lord Brahma, who is the parama-guru of our sampradaya, down to an insignificant ant, all can become deluded and become bound or conditioned.
I understand what you are trying to say, that by surrendering to a liberated person one can become liberated himself, yet the only real free agent is Krsna (Mukunda) and it is through His power and mercy that this process of liberation is possible. I believe that is an important point to make. What you call the “free, free will”, or the free will of a liberated person, is certainly different than the free will of an average person reaching for a beer, yet it also exists in a framework of the laws set forth by the Supreme Lord.

Hamlet, Act II, scene 2:

The Player King:

I do believe you think what now you speak;
But what we do determine oft we break.
Purpose is but the slave to memory,
Of violent birth, but poor validity;
Which now, like fruit unripe, sticks on the tree;
But fall, unshaken, when they mellow be.
Most necessary ’tis that we forget
To pay ourselves what to ourselves is debt:
What to ourselves in passion we propose,
The passion ending, doth the purpose lose.
The violence of either grief or joy
Their own enactures with themselves destroy:
Where joy most revels, grief doth most lament;
Grief joys, joy grieves, on slender accident.
This world is not for aye, nor ’tis not strange
That even our loves should with our fortunes change;
For ’tis a question left us yet to prove,
Whether love lead fortune, or else fortune love.
The great man down, you mark his favourite flies;
The poor advanced makes friends of enemies.
And hitherto doth love on fortune tend;
For who not needs shall never lack a friend,
And who in want a hollow friend doth try,
Directly seasons him his enemy.
But, orderly to end where I begun,
Our wills and fates do so contrary run
That our devices still are overthrown;
Our thoughts are ours, their ends none of our own:
So think thou wilt no second husband wed;
But die thy thoughts when thy first lord is dead.

In Shakespeare’s Hamlet, the prince has persuaded a troupe of actors to perform a play about the murder of a king by his brother to wed his wife. By watching his uncle’s reaction, he hopes to learn whether his uncle had similarly poisoned his father.

In the beginning of the play, the wife of a dying man swears to him that she will not remarry, that to do so would be treason to his memory. In his poetic response, above, he cautions her that we often promise something and mean to do it, but as circumstances change we do not keep our promise. If we cannot keep true to our intentions, how can it be said we have free will? Even our love tends on fortune, showing how untrue and lacking freedom we are, as conditioned souls.

Bhaktivinode Thakur writes, in “Jiv Jago”, that Lord Caitanya is saying: “You came into this world saying, ‘My Lord, I will certainly worship You’, but you have forgotten this promise and remained in great ignorance.”

Kulapavana Prabhu,

It is true we were all free agents, and by exercising our free will, we ended up here, by choice. I neglected to mention that not all free agents are the same.

The choice I mentioned now, makes us nitya-baddha (Not you, of course). The nitya-baddha requires the independent mercy of Sri Bhaktdevi, given through a devotee. Bhakti begets Bhakti. This Bhakti can be given through free or unfree agents. Unfree…?

Krishna may be the only being not subjected to illusion, but one category of free agent, the nitya-siddha – once knowing the purpose of being here – also never becomes deluded, though there may be apprehension causes by Yoga-maya. This not to be confused with material delusion.

It cannot be true that only Krishna is the cause of freedom. Philosophically we can trace everything back to Krishna, but He acts through His devotees. And it is through His devotees that the free path of Bhakti is given, along with mercy and so on.

The free agents are the nitya-siddha, the sadhana-siddha and the krpa-siddha. Another agent that may set one on the path of Bhakti but may yet not be entirely free, is the vartma-pradarska guru. But here we are drifting into details or technicalities, which are nonetheless important.

Though a vartma-pradarsaka might not be free, somehow the free path of Bhakti is given - they know the path of freedom, or are treading the path. Otherwise free agents are capably of encouraging freedom.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

thank you devotees for this discussion. if i may, i’d like to contribute with two points from the BG, because as far as i have understood, the explanation is there in the BG, in full:

in 11.33 Krishna says

mayaivaite nihatah purvam eva
nimitta-matram bhava savya-sacin

which means, “They are already put to death by My arrangement, and you, O Savyasaci, can be but an instrument in the fight.”
nimitta-matram means ‘just a cause’, and that is our free will. i’ve found it unnecessarily complicating to divide this subject to bound free will, free free will or other subdivisions of the only two aspects defined in the BG (the only two regarding the subject of the free will. further division has been given to the question of the doer etc, but not regarding the free will).

then, at the end of the BG, 18.57, Krishna gives final instructions:

“In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.”
in the purport Srila Prabhupada clarifies this point of the free will, beyond any further questioning:
“When one acts in Krsna consciousness, he does not act as the master of the world. Just like a servant, one should act fully under the direction of the Supreme Lord. A servant has no individual independence. He acts only on the order of the master. … Sanskrit word mat-parah is very important in this verse. It indicates that one has no goal in life save and except acting in Krsna consciousness just to satisfy Krsna.”

in 18.58-59 Krishna says even further:

“If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost. If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be engaged in warfare.”

Acarya’s commentaries reveal the point that whether one is free or bound, the result will be just the same - nimitta-matram, one can become just a cause in the supreme plan, and nothing more than that. whatever we decide to do we are bound, either by the modes of material nature or by Krishna consciousness. but Krishna consciousness has been termed ‘free will’ because one has taken the choice of surrendering to the supreme will and therefore arising the innate quality of freedom, which has been fully ‘exercised’ only by the Supreme Lord.

this last point is also stated in the text 18.60 and in my humble opinion this is the absolute definition:

“Under illusion you are now declining to act according to My direction. But, compelled by the work born of your own nature, you will act all the same, O son of Kunti.”

in the purport Srila Prabhuapda explains that there are only two aspects of the will - it can be bound or liberated, according to one’s position:

“If one refuses to act under the direction of the Supreme Lord, then he is compelled to act by the modes in which he is situated. Everyone is under the spell of a particular combination of the modes of nature and is acting in that way. But anyone who voluntarily engages himself under the direction of the Supreme Lord becomes glorious.”

i haven’t been able to find any third or further scientificly explained subdivision or any need for that.
accordingly, to follow the understanding given to me, free will means to willingly execute the Lord’s desire PLUS to willingly submit oneself to be bound by it. it does not mean independence of any kind, because either free or bound, the means remain the same and the doers remain the same. one’s surrender is the only thing that can change.

We have heard how Srila Prabhupad has emphasized that Krishna is the Cause of all causes. The Supreme Lord is the Supreme Controller. We may be baffled at how seemingly bad events take place in the world. We may think that seemingly good events are brought about by God, but that bad events are caused by ’something else’. The spiritual culture of Krishna consciousness provides the answers for these daunting questions, since Krishna Personally taught the science to Arjuna. The parampara is intended to be a transparent medium to Krishna and His teaching. Speculation is not encouraged, and the truth can be known by an honest inquiry with submission and service (tad viddhi pranipatena…).

We are “in” this world, but not “of” this world. The external events of the apara-prakriti are controlled by Krishna directly and indirectly. The first sloka of the Srimad Bhagavatam defines God, and declares that Krishna is aware of everything, both directly and indirectly, including material and spiritual reality. He is aware of our desires and our will. The example is given that the Paramatma (Supersoul, Holy Spirit in biblical terms) perceives our desire and will, similar to one who can smell the scent of a flower. Obviously, that example cannot fully express the wisdom and all-knowing nature of Krishna. Krishna is aware of our history, our present condition, and our future. I and others had asked Srila Prabhupad about the future being known to Krishna, as for example when Arjuna sees the gnashing of fallen warriors by the Virata Purusha before the battle of Kurukshetra had even taken place by Arjuna’s experience. This understanding led to the question to Srila Prabhupad: “If Krishna knows our destiny, then He also knows when we might surrender unto Him?” Srila Prabhupad’s answer was always the same: “then you surrender to Krishna now, rascal!” In other words, the conditioned souls are adverse to cooperating with God, and they are seeking independence, albeit falsely, through their sojourn through the material world, to squeeze out the last…
Thus, the issue of free will comes down to this point…I shall surrender to Krishna and lovingly serve Him, or I shall live in ignorance of Krishna. Living in unfavourable Krishna consciousness is not surrender in as much as demons may also think of Krishna but with an unfavorable mood. So, Srila Prabhupad’s advice should be taken…”then you surrender to Krishna now, rascal!” Pusta Krishna das

It is also true that there are really only two situations: either being bound or free. The Bound free will and Free, free will are not the latest thesis’s in philosophy, but were used to differentiate some free will concepts we take for granted.

A thief who becomes a clean-cut motivation speaker is still exercising his unfree will, whereas another thief who throws flowers at the feet of a pure devotee has begun his freedom journey, however long it takes. These sorts of scenarios can render a one-sided understanding of free will as a mismatch when trying to explain free will vs predestination.

As with many clear-cut issues, there are usually exceptions to the rule, or grey areas that we neglect to think of, and can cause us to be ineffective or unconvincing when preaching or trying to explain common-held world views.

Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to analyse his books and philosophical matters pertaining to his books, from different angles of vision. This is just another example of this. Srila Prabhupada himself was actively variegated in his coverage of world and social issues in his earlier writings.

It is worth remembering that someone like Arjuna is – daivim-prakrtim-asritah – always under the divine protection of the internal energy of the Lord, as are all nitya-siddha free souls. The example made of him being in apparent delusion, is not material delusion. It is the Lord’s arrangement.

SB 1.1.1 certainly says that all souls are deluded, but this does not refer to those eternally liberated souls who are also protected under – daivim-prakrtim.

We need to be able to think outside of normal acceptance and apply analysis in areas we don’t normally think. We may have been taught Bhagavad-Gita in a certain way, and we may have been taught philosophical concepts in a certain way, but from a buddhi-yoga stance, there are many more angles of vision – it is unlimited.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Based on Keshava Krishna Prabhu’s #16 above, I want to raise the question: If the soul is not of this world, and consciousness exists beyond the lower nature (although can be expressed through the covering of matter like dust covering a mirror), then the question is raised: Is free will of the soul or something lower? For example, the ahankara is the most subtle of material elements, pervading all of the mahatattva. But, ahankara is a subtle material covering of the conscious soul. The atma is beyond matter, yet tatashtha, is inbetween the material and spiritual natures, on the shore so to speak.

Let me propose a practical and concrete example…when we are chanting japa with some attentiveness. Detachment is practically a byproduct of hearing the Holy Names with some attentiveness. We can perceive thoughts intruding into our mind, disturbing the concentration of hearing the Holy Names. Or does it disturb one’s concentration? Rather, is it a misuse of one’s spiritual free will to pay any attention to intrusive thoughts? We try to bring our attention back to the shelter of the Holy Names, again by free will. But, the environment is being arranged, is it not, by Sri Krishna (eko bahunam yo vidhadhati kaman). So, free will is the intention of the soul, and Krishna is the Permiter (man proposes and God disposes). Free will does not mean independence. We are eternally dependent. We have such a relationship with Krishna.

Ultimately, Krishna is the reservoir of pleasure and love. The jiva souls are seeking pleasure and love, fully expressed in relationship with Krishna. Krishna’s mercy is fully independent and we pray that He will grant us His Mercy. By the grace of Sri Gurudeva, our vision can be purified with transcendental knowledge, and we may be able to begin to realize the sambandha, relationship of all things with Krishna. Then, through devotional service, abhideya, practice of loving service can awaken a higher taste for Krishna consciousness than for lording over matter. Finally, if we shall be most fortunate, prayojana might be granted to the jiva soul, love of God. Free will may then take on the flavor of rasa, wholehearted attempts to lovingly please Krishna, as Krishna lovingly reciprocates. Krishna’s beauty and charm are all attractive. The 7th canto of SB describes the infinite magnetism of Krishna, comparing Him to a great magnet and the jiva souls to iron filings. Where is free will then? Pusta Krishna das

Pusta Krsna prabhu, i find this most interesting, thank you very much! :-)

This understanding led to the question to Srila Prabhupad: “If Krishna knows our destiny, then He also knows when we might surrender unto Him?” Srila Prabhupad’s answer was always the same: “then you surrender to Krishna now, rascal!”

this reminds me of the case of Bali Maharaja. the Supreme Lord knew exactly when to appear in order to obtain full surrender from Bali. he surrendered as soon as he saw Lord Vamanadeva. so i think that is significant. Krishna says that as Paramatma, He is situated in the heart of every individual jiva, so there is no wonder that He knows exactly what to do with us and when. by being situated in the heart of jiva, He knows all our most hidden propensities, the diversities, the qualities and the quantities, so to speak, and consequently He can guide us in favor of our advancement toward the pure consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada’s instruction is most mercifull. why waste time… thank you!

It might be argued that since Lord Krsna has inherently free will, the atomic jivas - being part and parcel of Him - have an inherent free will as well, however minute. Remember: we are the same in quality and different in quantity.

Pustakrishna Prabhu raises the question: “If the soul is not of this world, and consciousness exists beyond the lower nature (although can be expressed through the covering of matter like dust covering a mirror), then the question is raised: Is free will of the soul or something lower?”
Srila Prabhupada clearly says that free will is inherent to the soul:
Swedish man (3): Is there free will?
Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Just like you are sitting here. If you don’t like, you can go away. That’s your free will. There is free will. Because we are part and parcel of God, God is completely free to do anything. And because we are part and parcel of God, therefore we have got minute quantity of freedom. Just like a drop of ocean water, it is also salty, but the quantity of salt in that drop is not equal to the salt in the ocean. Similarly, you have got a little quantity of freedom, but not as freedom as God has got. That is not possible. You are subordinate. Your freedom is subordinate to God’s freedom. >>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.1-3 — Stockholm, September 10, 1973

Pusta Krishna Prabhu,

First, I would like express my sadness at the passing of Her Grace Yamuna Mataji. And it appears there is some hope our Bhagavad-Gita As It Is can be saved. It is all happening, and yet here we are discussing free will.

The questions you raised sre excellent. I’m sure you know of the answers, but we can share this with readers of Dandavats.

For the first paragraph, the answer is that free or bound will emanates from the soul. The moment we misuse our original free will, the soul gets covered by ahankara, which causes us to mistake illusion for reality. When a person performs bound activities, that is actually the expression of the soul perversely enacted through ahankara.

This is why, when covered by ahankara or delusion, the original free will has now become bound will, because there is no freedom under ahankara or delusion. The freedom is there, but it is bound freedom, and so is not truly free.

For the second paragraph, you correctly described the workings of free will with the example of chanting japa. Doesn’t Arjuna ask why such distractions come unsought as if by force? Lust is the answer given by Krishna. Ahankara and lust are the same thing, because our original love for Krishna has transformed into lust. While impelled by lust or bound desire, and being habituated with them, they intrude upon our japa concentration.

The chanting of japa is a freedom process, but because our ahankara hasn’t dissolved yet through purity, the thoughts and desires related to ahankara will persist. This is not the Lord doing this. He only proposes. It is our desire to want to be distracted, as if by force. We are responsible. Depending on our sincerity, the Lord, as the holy name, can help give us buddhi-yoga and – drdha-vrata – determination to act freely.

This force that Arjuna asks about is really the force of our perverted desires expressed through delusion or ahankara, and the material modes are a force to be reckoned with, and they will enforce those desires. Here is the reason why people always ask why, when things go ‘wrong.’

It can also be said that if our chanting is not sincere and is ruined by intentional aparadha, that helps solidify our ahankara, although this is a freedom process. We are still bounding ourselves. It becomes another example of bound free will. This is to say that to be truly free, is a rare achievement.

Your third paragraph is self-explanatory.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

Truly, I stand in awe of the great philosopher devotees whose comments I have the privilege to read and to digest. I thank you for the deep thought you have placed into your comments, one and all. As regards Jamuna dd, I also offered a brief eulogy to her grace on Dandavats. How fortunate is she, who tended toward a reclusive nature, who passed on with hand in beadbag, no doubt, while meditating upon the Holy Names of Hare Krishna Mahamantra. Pusta Krishna das

Keshava Krsna Prabhu said:

Many times devotees try to reconcile this essentially Christian concept with Vedic understanding

This conflict between Fate and Freewill has been going on long before Christ, and in fact it entered into Christianity because it was endemic in the essentially Hellenistic society where Christianity developed (the New Testament was written in Greek not Latin), the Eastern Mediterranean region.

The following information derived from Frederick Cramer sum up the situation. Fate and Free Will can only be reconciled if we have the correct understanding of the Law of Karma based on the teaching of the Upanishads, Vedanta Sutra, Gita, Srimad Bhagavatam etc

Shyamasundara Dasa

www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com

krsne matirastu

In the ancient world of the Mediterranean there long raged a philosophical controversy between the Fatalists headed by the Stoic philosophers Zeno, Seneca, Epictetus, Diogenes of Babylon, Posidonius, etc., along with their allies the Hellenistic Astrologers, against the champions of Free Will. The forces of Free Will were lead into battle by the leaders of the schools of the Platonists, Sceptics, Cynics, Epicureans and Parapathetics (Aristoteleans). They were men such as Plotinus, Cicero, Lucretius, Carneades, etc. (These different schools, Platonists etc. were divided on many points but united against the Stoics.)*

*Cramer, pp 44-81

Cramer, Frederick, 1954, Astrology in Roman Law and Politics, Memoirs of the American Philosophical Society Volume 37, Philadelphia: The American Philosophical Society.

Syamasundara Prabhu,

It is true that this has long been the subject of thought and discussion. Perhaps I could have written of an “Age old” unanswered question as opposed to it being a “Christian concept.”

It nonetheless became a Christian problem because the early church fathers and ‘authorities’ such as Aquinas attempted some finality on the matter. When concepts of ‘Original sin,’ and the ‘Holy Trinity’ still raise questions today, as they did back then – at great risk to one’s life – we see how it has helped influence modern thought, at least in the West.

Since we are faced with such as we preach, or share through interfaith forums, it is nice to be able to have a clear-cut explanation on the perennial question of Free Will vs Predestination. Besides, this is also a relative issue you raised, and it is on this level that historical veracity can be endlessly disputed. What truly matters is that we leverage philosophical clarity in line with Gaudiya siddhanta.

As for being well versed in Vedanta-sutra, the Upanisads and so on before being able to understand Free will concepts, I cited Bhagavad-Gita because it is the synthesis or the composite aggregate of Vedic thought.

Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.

This is a poetic article by Dave Eggers published in “The Guardian” in January, 2005:

“Like the fur of a chinchilla. Like the cleanest tooth. Yes, the fishes say, this is what it feels like. People always ask the fishes, ‘What does the water feel like to you?’ and the fishes are always happy to oblige. Like feathers are to other feathers, they say. Like powder touching ash. We smile and nod. When the fishes tell us these things, we begin to understand. We begin to think we know what the water feels like to the fishes. But it’s not always like fur and ash and the cleanest tooth. At night, they say, the water can be different. At night, when it’s very cold, it can be like the tongue of a cat. At night, when it’s very very cold, it’s like cracked glass. Or honey. Or forgiveness, they say, ha ha. When the fishes answer these questions – which they are happy to do – they also ask why. They are curious things, fish are, and thus they ask, ‘Why? Why do you want to know what the water feels like to the fishes?’ And we are never quite sure. The fishes press further. ‘Do you breathe air?’ they ask. The answer is yes. Well then, they say, ‘What does the air feel like to you?’ And we do not know. We think of air and we think of wind, but that’s another thing. Wind is air in action, air on the move, and the fishes know this. Well then, they ask again, ‘What does the air feel like?’ And we have to think about this. Air feels like air, we say, and the fishes laugh mirthlessly. ‘Think!’ they say. ‘Think,’ they say, now gentler. And we think and we guess that air feels like hair, thousands of hairs, swaying ever so slightly in breezes microscopic. The fishes laugh again. ‘Do better, think harder,’ they say, encouraging us. It feels like language, we say, and they are impressed. ‘Keep going,’ they say. It feels like blood, we say, and they say, ‘No, no, now you’re getting colder.’ The air is like being wanted, we say, and they nod approvingly. The air is like being pushed and pulled and yanked, punched and slapped and misunderstood and loved, we say, and the fishes sigh and touch our forearm sympathetically.”

“It feels like language”… yes, we are discussing in the medium of language and oblivious to its influence on us, but we are being immersed and controlled by it.

Like being misunderstood and loved, too, even deeper than language.

We are surrounded by our conditioning, like flies struggling in thick amber. Our karmic existence, controlling our destiny, is like the very air we breathe.

And yet, we have the God-like ability to glimpse and understand our situation, as we move closer to the mode of goodness…

BG 3.27: The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

BG 4.11: As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.

BG 9.10: This material nature, which is one of My energies, is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, producing all moving and nonmoving beings. Under its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again.

BG 13.30: One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.

BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

BG 18.59: If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be engaged in warfare.

yad ahankaram asritya / na yotsya iti manyase
mithyaiva vyavasayas te / prakritis tvam niyokshyati
You were thinking that you will not fight, na yotsya iti manyase. But that is due to your misconception of your self and reality, yad ahankaram asritya . That resolution was in vain, mithyaiva vyavasayas te, prakriti will engage you (make you fight), prakritis tvam niyokshyati.

BG 18.60: Under illusion you are now declining to act according to My direction. But, compelled by the work born of your own nature, you will act all the same, O son of Kuntī.

svabhava-jena kaunteya / nibaddhah svena karmana
kartum necchasi yan mohat / karishyasy avaso ‘pi tat
Your will not to act is illusory, kartum necchasi yan mohat. Bound by actions, nibaddhah svena karmana, born of your nature son of Kunti, svabhava-jena kaunteya, helpless, you will act karishyasy avaso ‘pi tat.

BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone’s heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

isvarah sarva-bhutanam / hrid-dese ‘rjuna tishthati
bhramayan sarva-bhutani / yantrarudhani mayaya
The supreme controller is at the heart of all beings Arjuna, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrid-dese ‘rjuna tishthati, driving the movements of all living beings, bhramayan sarva-bhutani, who are mounted on the machine of his universal potency, yantrarudhani mayaya.

SB 3.26.28: The mind of the living entity is known by the name of Lord Aniruddha, the supreme ruler of the senses. He possesses a bluish-black form resembling a lotus flower growing in the autumn. He is found slowly by the yogīs.

SB 11.13.24: Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

From The Harmonist, May 1932, issue number 11. Article originally titled, Sree Chaitanya in South India. Pages 325-326.
By Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur

The world stands in no need of any reformer. The world has a very competent person for guiding its minutest happenings. The person who determines that there is scope for reform of the world, himself stands in need of reform. The world goes on in its own perfect way. No person can deflect it even the breadth of a hair from the course chalked out for it by providence. When we perceive any change being actually effected in the course of events of this world by the agency of any particular individual, we must know very well that the agent possesses no real power at any stage. The agent finds himself driven forward by a force belonging to a different category from himself. The course of the world does not require to be changed by the agency of any person. What is necessary is to change our outlook on this world. This was done for the contemporary generation by the mercy of Sri Chaitanya. It can only be known to recipients of his mercy. The scriptures declare that it is only necessary to listen with an open mind to the name of Krishna from the lips of a bona fide devotee. As soon as Krishna enters the listening ear, he clears up the vision of the listener so that he no longer has any ambition of ever acting the part of a reformer of any other person, because he finds that nobody is left without the very highest guidance. It is therefore his own reform, by the grace of God, whose supreme necessity and nature he is increasingly able to realize, by the eternally continuing mercy of the Supreme Lord.

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