Our constitutional body is eternal, could it be that we are presently dreaming?

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By Bhakta Rod

Could it be we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

Some interesting quotes are as follows -

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

‘Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.’ Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila
5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam
4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

Srila Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,
1975)

So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

So many misunderstand our eternal constitution or eternal devotional ’svarupa’ foundations. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ‘ ‘When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Dhirasanta: Srila Prabhupada was walking in St. James’s Park, tapping his cane on the ice that had formed overnight. At one point he asked, ‘What does this mean?’ We looked at each other and wondered what we should say. Prabhupada asked again, ‘What does this mean?’ We couldn’t fathom what Prabhupada meant. Suddenly he said, ‘Ice is maya. The original constitution of water is liquid, but when it comes in contact with freezing weather it becomes hard ice. And when there is ice, there is the possibility that you may slip.’ Prabhupada may have been breaking the ice because he didn’t want anyone to slip. He continued the analogy, explaining that the heart becomes hard, but just as the sun rises and melts the ice, in the same way the continued chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra softens the heart and reinstates the individual in his natural constitutional position.

If one is in an imperishable atmosphere then the very meaning of ‘imperishable’ is no one ever leaves as that constitution or foundational Krishna Conscious body they eternally are in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

One can leave if they choose to reject Krishna however, they can only leave Goloka ’sub-consciously’ like one leaves their present body while dreaming.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ or ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ (nitya-baddha consciousness) is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones imperishable marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha identity, which is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and ‘always’ in Goloka.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15 reads as follows, explaining what imperishable means which is beyond the confines of material time and space:

Babaji: The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time. therefore, whenever we make statements such as, ‘the Jivas were created’, ‘thereafter the Jivas became bound by maya’, ‘the spiritual world became manifest’, ‘there is no aspect of maya in the constitution of the Jiva’, material time influences our language. These kinds of statements are unavoidable in our conditioned state. For this reason, no statement concerning the Jiva and spirit is exempt from the jurisdiction of material time. Feelings of past present and future naturally creep in. therefore, while experiencing the import of the descriptions of the spiritual world an spiritual objects, people who are devoted to pure thinking experience the changeless nature of present time. Be very careful in this respect. Giving up the unwanted sense which is unavoidable (due to the influence of material time) try to experience the spirit…….. I know at present you will not be able to digest these subtleties so quickly. As the spiritual influence will increase in your heart, so the spiritual understanding will easily increase, distinguishing it from the material conception. You body is inert and so are all the bodily activities, but you are not; you are an atomic conscious being. The more you are able to understand yourself, the more you will experience yourself as superior to the material world. Therefore, even if I explain it and you listen, you will not able to grasp it. The more you awaken your spiritual consciousness by taking shelter of the holy name, the more you will experience the spiritual world.”
(Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15.).

Hare Krsna, your servant and sincerely Bhakta Rod

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We are supposed to be awakening our dormant love of God. If we are in Goloka now then our love of God is awake and we just have to remember it. This post has an interesting idea, but not sound in my opinion.

Quoting Jaiva Dharma about time/space being inconceivable does not support any siddhanta you are proposing. Why don’t we quote Jaiva Dharma about the position of the nitya-baddha soul? There are many sections which do not support the proposition being suggested here.

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya’s enjoyments, maya’with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

Comment posted by amalagaura on September 13th, 2007
2 Unregistered

Bhagvad Gita 15.16
There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

Comment posted by amalagaura on September 14th, 2007
3 Unregistered

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan” as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa or atma (self) vigraha (bodily form) devotional body. The living entity did notoriginate from tatastha although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions.

Srila Prabhupada can and does say that the living entity (nitya-siddha) never actually falls from the spiritual world however the forgetful consciousness of the living entity (The projected nitya-baddha consciousness) can ‘fall down’ and enter the mahat-tattva in a dream state that simultaneously leaves one authentic body back in Goloka .

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the Spiritual World and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krishna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krishna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?

Srila Prabhupada: - “Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krishna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krishna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).

We have wrongly come to believe that all nitya-siddha devotee’s can never fall to their sub-conscious lower self or nitya-baddha dreaming state, however it is possible to fall from ones full bodily self due to non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts, choices and free will, but most do not take that path. It is only the many, many expansions of Krishna that can never fall down.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

“Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

Dormant devotional service to Krishna is within everyone. Simply by associating with devotees, hearing their good instructions and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra, dormant love for Krishna is awakened. In this way one acquires the seed of devotional service. Guru-krishna-prasade paya bhakti-lata-bija. http://caitanyacaritamrta.com/madhya/19/… Dormant love for Krishna exists in everyone’s heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga
Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

Srila Prabhupada “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

ALL those who choose to use their free will and forget ffice:smarttags” />Srila Prabhupada writes: “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga
Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [Maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” CC. Madhya 20.117.

There is no origin to ones nitya-siddha-svarupa body. Every marginal living entity has an authentic nitya-siddha svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can again realize while trapped in their lower nitya-baddha dreaming self if they turn to Krishna Conscious, or can never realize it for an almost eternity if they choose to miss use their fee will and not to be Krishna Conscious

Because the Kingdom of God is an Eternal Personal Active Loving Devotional Place that is ever lasting and never aging, the nitya-siddha-svarupa bodies are always there – Nitya-siddha means — eternally established. This is what permanence, perpetual and eternity means – no beginning, no end and never changing (although lila-rasa — the mellows of a pastime, can change in the spiritual universe).

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We have wrongly come to believe that all nitya-siddha devotee’s can never fall to their sub-conscious lower self or nitya-baddha dreaming state, however it is possible to fall from ones full bodily self due to non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts, choices and free will, but most do not take that path. It is only the many, many expansions of Krishna that can never fall down.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

“Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of good devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107)

“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [Maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.” CC. Madhya 20.117.

There is no origin to our ‘svarypa or nitya-siddha’ body. Every marginal living entity has an authentic nitya-siddha svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-atma-vigraha body they can realize while trapped in their lower nitya-baddha dreaming self if they turn to Krishna Conscious, or can never realize if they continue to choose to misuse their free will and not be Krishna Conscious.

Srila Prabhupada – “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Srila Prabhupada - “Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada: - “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their Lila with Krishna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, merging into the Brahma-sayujya (Impersonal Brahmajoyti) after being killed three times as demons. This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent”.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets Krishna. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya
zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”.

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya is only attained after one first enters the mahat-tattva from their perpetual original and authentic body in the Vaikuntha’s. Such Impersonal liberation is only attained when one abandons their original perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha and further abandons the ethereal and biological vessels one has ‘consciously’ transferred to within the mahat-tattva. This is what His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada means when he says:

“Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

This is an important revelation at a time (the beginning of the 21st century) when some Vaishnava traditions foolishly mislead others to believe their origins are from the Brahma-sayujya, Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Tatasta. All these states of impersonal consciousness are only attained after ones nitya-baddha consciousness first passing through the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: “We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . .”

All Quotes from Bhaktivedanta Archives http://vedabase.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 14th, 2007
4 Unregistered

Bhakta Rod, your points seem to be a valid way of understanding Shrila Prabhupada’s teachings and we should leave it at that. Trying to enforce a particular point of view on this issue is not ideal, particularly when Prabhupada says in the same letter you quoted: “Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila—both may be possible.” He makes the point that we are always in Krishna lila, even now. So even if the Jiva has origin in brahmajyoti, that is also Krishna’s lila, that should be clear.

Your point is interesting that since the jiva’s spiritual body is eternally with Krishna prema how could it not be with Krishna.

As a point of Vaishnava etiquette I do not think we should consider other Gaudiya Vaishnava traditions and learned acharyas to “foolishly misled others” There are also many exalted disciples of Shrila Prabhupada who are in a position of guru to us and who clearly went back to Godhead who may not agree with your interpretation. Not to mention other Gaudiya Vaishnava acharyas even more senior. Maintaining some Vaishnava etiquette will help us to understand these subtle spiritual subject matters which mere exercises in logic will not allow us to attain.

Quotes are below, primarily from Shrila Prabhupada’s purports:

Vaishnava Siddhanta Mala - Bhaktivinod Thakur

QUESTION: Where do the nitya-baddha, baddha-mukta and nitya-mukta souls reside?
ANSWER: The nitya-baddha and baddha-mukta souls reside in the material world. The nitya-mukta souls reside in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha (the place of no anxiety).

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature’s, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

Comment posted by amalagaura on September 15th, 2007
5 Unregistered

QUOTE ‘QUESTION: Where do the nitya-baddha, baddha-mukta and nitya-mukta souls reside?
ANSWER: The nitya-baddha and baddha-mukta souls reside in the material world. The nitya-mukta souls reside in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha (the place of no anxiety).

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature’s, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport) END OF QUOTE

QUESTION ‘What point are they (nitya-baddha consciousness) coming from tatastha’?

ANSWER ‘ When the nitya siddha chooses to miss use their free will in Goloka,they enter the mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body but as a secondary dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha), they then become deluded over billions of life times by the impermanance of the mahat-tattva, then seek out impersonal liberation and find temporary refuge in tatastha.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

No, I do not agree with uour interpretation of Shastra, our nitya baddha consciousness may appear to come from tatastha which I believe your quote is referring too, but originally we are all nitya-siddha and in a state of perpetual servitude to Krishna beyond time ans space. In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad Gita as it is 4.6

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes. Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant conaciousness. We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from Tatastha, no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation, that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – “This love is already there within the heart of everyone (nitya-siddha krishna-prema). http://caitanyacaritamrta.
com/madhya/22/…

Srila Prabhupada – “Dormant love for Krishna exists in everyone’s heart, and it simply has to be awakened by the regulative process of devotional service. One has to learn to use a typewriter by following the regulative principles of the typing book. One has to place his fingers on the keys in such a way and practice, but when one becomes adept, he can type swiftly and correctly without even looking at the keys. Similarly, one has to follow the rules and regulations of devotional service as they are set down by the spiritual master; then one can come to the point of spontaneous loving service”.

Everyone has dormant krishna-bhakti — love for Krishna — and in the association of genuine devotees, that love is revealed. As stated in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 22.107):

Srila Prabhupada – “”Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. http://caitanyacaritamrta.
com/madhya/22/…

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Everyone thinks, “My relationship with Krishna is the best.”
HANSADUTTA: So it’s not a matter of aspiring to some–
PRABHUPADA: No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna.

PRABHUPADA: Even the trees in Vrindaban, they want to serve Krishna silently in that way, supplying fruits and flowers. That is their ananda. Everyone enjoying the supreme bliss. When Krishna comes, takes a flower or fruit, that is their enjoyment. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, 10 February 1971, Gorakhpur

Even though one can enter the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya as a spark of inactive effulgence, this state of temporary dreaming inactive or comatose consciousness is not ones original or perpetual fullness.

The fullness of the jiva soul is sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA or ones nitya-siddha-avarupa identity that is eternally situated in Goloka or Vaikuntha beyond of mundane concept of divided time that only exists within the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Amalagaura Prabhu do you understand what eternal time means?

Only ones nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva or tatastha. It is only after much struggle trapped in ethereal and biological vessels, ones nitya-baddha consciousness may find the mistaken illusionary freedom within the impersonal characteristic of marginal consciousness known as the collective (along with other nitya-baddha consciousnesses) impersonal Brahmajyoti or tatastha. Individuality is never lost within the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti nor is the connection to ones original authentic nitya-siddha bodily self ever broken, it is only forgotten.

The imperishable aspect of the jiva is ones eternal svarupa Krishna Conscious body, which is ones perpetual nitya-siddha constitutional position. Therefore the ‘perishable’ nitya-baddha secondary conscious state is nothing other than a dreaming phenomenon emanating from ones ‘imperishable’ marginal identity while unconscious to their full constitutional nitya-siddha personality.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. That is a… Just like you are son of some gentleman. That is a fact. It is not that the son becomes father or father becomes son. No. The son is son; the father is father. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada: “Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord”. - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This extended conscious projection, known as the nitya-baddha consciousness, is then provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu so one can give their dreams form within His mahat-tattva creation. This enables the inferior non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation and seek out their mistaken desires of grandeur.

All life enters the maha-tattva originally from Goloka or Vaikuntha, no life or jiva souls can originate from the mahat-tattva or Maha-Vishnu, or its delusional temporary escape (Brahma-sayuyja or tatastha) Maha-Vishnu facilitates those nitya-siddhas who use their free will in Goloka or Vaikuntha to choose to enter His impermanant creation. Like darkness can only exist when light is absent, the nitya-baddha consciousness only exists when one chooses to turn away from their nitya-siddha bodily identity.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Unless one enters the mahat-tattva as a pure devotee or is playing a part within Krishna’s pastimes, one can only otherwise enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that becomes trapped in a world of forgetfulness divided into past, present and future. In this way the nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of the jivatma or soul (nitya-siddha) is encaged in perishable ethereal and biological bodies which are ornaments or vessels that are non different from the mahat-tattva or material creation.

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 18th, 2007
6 Unregistered

“Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila—both may be possible.” He makes the point that we are always in Krishna lila, even now. So even if the Jiva has origin in brahmajyoti, that is also Krishna’s lila, that should be clear’. - Amalagaura

(Adi.1.92): “The foremost process of cheating is to desire to achieve liberation by merging in the Supreme, for this causes the permanent disappearance of loving service to Krishna.”

Therefore, those who have reached mature spiritual realization look upon merging into the Brahman effulgence as a great mistake.

Sri Nandanandana dasa - “Since the Brahman effulgence is considered to be but one of the opulences of the Supreme, it should be understood that whenever the Vedic texts speak of Brahman, they are indicating the Supreme Personality of God. In fact, it is stated that in the Vedic literature the word Brahman means, “in whom all the attributes reach to the infinity.”

In this way, it is clear that Brahman primarily means the Supreme Person, of whom the Vedic literature is full of descriptions of various aspects of His infinite qualities and characteristics.

The Caitanya-caritamrita clearly states: “The word ‘Brahman’ indicates the complete Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is Sri Krishna. That is the verdict of all Vedic literature.” (Cc.Madhya-lila, 6.147)

The Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.7.112) also explains that, “Everything about the Supreme Personality of Godhead is spiritual, including His body, opulence and paraphernalia. Mayavadi philosophy, however, covering His spiritual opulence, advocates the theory of impersonalism.”

One can be liberated from material existence by merging into the Brahman or the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where there is eternity and knowledge. However, there is no real ananda or bliss there. The only pleasure in the brahmajyoti is the freedom from all material suffering.

Some yogis think such pleasure, which may be felt on elementary levels of meditation, is a sign of reaching the final goal. But real ananda is found only in spiritual engagement. Without understanding this, one’s spiritual knowledge is incomplete.

Sarva-gattah - “The goal of the impersonalists is to merge into the Brahman effulgence or Impersonal Brahmajyoti, where they lose all of their individual characteristics that is simply another form of dreaming. If the nitya-baddha consciousness succeeds to enter a dormant dreamless state, they remain there as an inactive spiritual spark, (nitya-baddha consciousness) floating in the rays of the brahmajyoti. They do not realize that they have a nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha that again gives them the opportunity to engage in various spiritual personal activities because they do not know about their full bodily identity in Goloka. The whole creation including the maha-tattva exist within the Brahman effulgence.

Therefore there are three aspects to the Brahmajyoti effulgence, the original source is perpetually Personal and active in bodily form, while the Impersonal is inactive, bodyless and devoid of devotional service. The third is the mahat-tattva or material creation.

So, if the nitya-baddha consciousness in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti again has any yearning for engaging in activities, they cannot go back to the spiritual planets because they are not qualified to do so, so they are forced to seek shelter in the mahat-tattva or material world where they start over again confoned to ethereal and biological bodily vessels.

Sri Nandanandana dasa -’The idea of achieving spiritual liberation by merging into the Brahman effulgence is considered the process of a cheating religion. Why it is considered this is that it destroys the opportunity for people to re-establish their loving relationship with the Supreme’.

This is confirmed in the Caitanya-caritamrita (Adi.1.92): “The foremost process of cheating is to desire to achieve liberation by merging in the Supreme, for this causes the permanent disappearance of loving service to Krishna.”

Therefore, those who have reached mature spiritual realization look upon merging into the Brahman effulgence as a great mistake.

Sarva-gattah - ‘From this verse it is clear that without going beyond the Brahman effulgence (Impersonal Brahmajyoti), one cannot see the real perpetual bodily form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or their own perpetual ‘svarupa’ active bodily identity.

If one reaches the stage of realizing the Brahman (IMPERSONAL BRAHMAJYOTI) and becomes convinced that he has attained the ultimate, then he does not have complete understanding or full realization of his full constitutional bodily origins and potential. He still must go further until he has reached the source of the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, according to the Isa Upanishad, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead where one is eternal actively serving Krishna as an eternal bodily form without end or beginning. This is the real position of all marginal living entities

Your servant Svarupa

Comment posted by Svarupa on September 19th, 2007
7 Unregistered

Is this the correct Understanding of the nitya-siddha body and nitya-baddha consciousness?

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

So what does Srila Prabhupada mean here? Obviously we are presently eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha) outside of the personal active devotional pastimes of Vaikuntha and Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA SELF) because we are experiencing existence within the maha-tattva or the tatastha as our dreaming nitya-baddha secondary conscious self. This eternally conditioned state (nitya-baddha) can never enter the active pastimes in the Vaikuntha’s or Goloka just as darkness can never enter the light, in fact there is no such phenomenon.

In this way the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness is dissolved as one becomes more Krishna Conscious, just as the darkness dissipates as the sun gradually rises.

The ‘eternally conditioned-nitya-baddha’ therefore becomes the ‘eternally liberated nitya-siddha’. This is what Srila Prabhupada means when he says “We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?… You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated”

Could this means as our nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness dissipates, our nitya-siddha body is gradually re established and realized?

Yes - Through our Krishna Conscious endeavour, even while so called ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha consciousness), we all can re-establish our Krishna Conscious bodily active devotional self in our original perpetual position as nitya-siddha that is without beginning or end within the devotional personal Goloka and Vaikuntha realm beyond mundane time and space that is only found within both the temporary mahat-tattva and the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti (tatastha, Brahma-sayuyja etc). In this way all living entities are originally nitya-siddha and have a perpetual bodily form serving Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. . (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

In the service of Srila Prabhupada Bhakta Rod

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 20th, 2007
8 Unregistered

Bhakta Rod you wrote:

The living entity did not originate from tatastha although ones nitya-baddha consciousness may have visited there on many occassions.

When the nitya siddha chooses to miss use their free will in Goloka,they enter the mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body but as a secondary dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha), they then become deluded over billions of life times by the impermanance of the mahat-tattva, then seek out impersonal liberation and find temporary refuge in tatastha.

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

No, I do not agree with uour interpretation of Shastra, our nitya baddha consciousness may appear to come from tatastha which I believe your quote is referring too, but originally we are all nitya-siddha and in a state of perpetual servitude to Krishna beyond time ans space. In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

You also made many other similar statements about tatastha. All of which are misconceptions. The jiva is the tatastha sakti of the Lord, also called the jiva sakti or marginal potency, the jiva doesn’t go there, it is not a place you can go to, it is what he is.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’
krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’
suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya
svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains these verses as follows: Sri Sanatana Gosvami asked Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Krsna. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Krsna as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Adi-lila, Chapter Two, verse 96.

In his Paramatma Sandarbha Jiva Goswami writes:

evam ekasya purusasya nanatvam upapadya tasya punar amsa vivriyante. atra dvi-vidha amsah svamsa vibhinnamsac ca. vibhinnamsas tatastha-cakty-atmaka jiva iti vaksyate. svamsas tu guna-lila dy-avatara-bhedena vividhah. tatra lila dy-avatarah prasagga-saggatya sri-krsna-sandarbhe vaksyante.

evam thus; ekasya - of one; purusasya - purusa-avatar; nanatvam - variety; upapadya - is explained; tasya - of Him; punar - again; amsa - parts; vivriyante are explained; atra - here; dvi-vidha - two kinds; amsah - parts; svamsa - own parts; vibhinnamsac - separated parts; ca. - also; vibhinnamsas separated parts; tatastha-cakty- atmaka - marginal potency; jiva - individual souls; iti - thus; vaksyate. - will be explained; svamsas own parts; tu - but; guna- lila dy-avatara-bhedena - with differences oif guna and lila avataras; vividhah. - various; tatra - there; lila dy- avatarah beginning with lila avataras; prasagga-saggatya - by contact; sri-krsna-sandarbhe - in Sri Krsna-sandarbha; vaksyante. - will be explained; gunavatara guna avataras; yatha as.

In this way it has been explained that although the purusa- avatara is a single person, He nevertheless expands in many different forms. The Supreme Personality of Godhead has two kinds of expansions: 1. svamsa (personal expansions), and 2. vibhinnamsa (separated expansions). The Lord’s separated expansions are the individual spirit souls, who are all the Lord’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). The Lord’s personal expansions are His many incarnations, such as His guna-avatars and lila-avataras. The Lord’s lila-avataras and other incarnations will be described later in the Sri Krsna-sandarbha.

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them.

tatra prathamo ‘ntaragga-sakti-vilasanugrhito nitya- bhagavat-parikara-rupo garudadikah. yathoktam padmottara-khande tri-pad-vibhuter lokas tu ity adau bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte. asya ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav apravecat.

tatra - there; prathamah - first; antaragga-sakti - internal potency; vilasa - pastimes; anugrhitah - attained the mercy; nitya - eternal; bhagavat - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; parikara-rupah - the form of associates; garudadikah. - beginning with Garuda; yatha - as; uktam - said; padmottara-khande - in thje Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda; tri-pad-vibhuteh - of three fourths of the Lord’s potencies; lokah - the world; tu - indeed; iti - thus; adau - beginning; bhagavat-sandarbhodahrte - dessribed in the Bhagavat-sandarbha; asya - of this; ca - also; tatasthatvam - the state of ebing the marginal potency; jivatva-prasiddheh - of the proof of being the individual spirit souls; isvaratva - of the status of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; kotau - on the edge; apravecat - because of not entering.

The first group consists of Garuda and the other eternal associates of the Lord, These devotees take shelter of the Lord’s internal potency and enjoy pastimes with Him. They reside in the spiritual world, which will be described in the Bhagavat- sandarbha (anuccheda 78) where the following words of Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda are quoted:

“Countless blissful spiritual planets are in the spiritual sky, which is three fourths of the entire creation.”

Thus, although the nature of the individual souls is on the borderline of the nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the individual souls do not enter that nature. Thus they remain different from the Lord.

tad evam paramatmanas tatasthakhya saktir vivrta. antaraggakhya tu purvavad eva jYeya. atha bahiraggakhya vivriyate

tat - that; evam - thus; paramatmanah - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tatasthakhya - called the marginal potency; saktih - potency; vivrta. - revealed; antaraggakhya - called the internal potency; tu - indeed; purvavat - as before; eva - indeed; jYeya - should be known; atha - now; bahiraggakhya - called the external potency; vivriyate - is revealed.

In this way we have described the Lord’s marginal potency. we have already described the Lord’s internal potency.

This is from Srila Prabhupada’s “Teachings of Lord Caitanya”

The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognizance.

This is from “Sri Caitanya’s Teachings” by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

Vishnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal Abode, another potency is for creating all human souls who are emanation from His Tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human souls has two different predilections. If he desires to serve God-head he is allowed into the eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding potency.

This position, which is like a geometrical line, is designated tatastha-sakti, the fountain-head of all human souls. Tatastha-sakti is located between the two potencies of Vishnu one of which maintains this transforming world and the other is the source of the manifestation of the eternal world that does not change like this world. These potencies belong to the Personality of God-head Vishnu

Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

jivera ’svarupa’ haya — krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’
krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’
suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya
svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ’sakti’ haya

SYNONYMS

jivera — of the living entity; svarupa — the constitutional position; haya — is; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; nitya-dasa — eternal servant; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tatastha — marginal; sakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakasa — manifestation; surya-amsa — part and parcel of the sun; kirana — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvala-caya — molecular particle of fire; svabhavika — naturally; krsnera — of Lord Krsna; tina-prakara — three varieties; sakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION

It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.

Comment posted by shiva on September 22nd, 2007
9 Unregistered

We did not originate from tatastha consciousness

Jiva prabhu, your understanding of what I presented about tatastha consciousness has not been correctly understood by you. On many occasions in my writing I have made it clear that tatatstha is a state of consciousness of the marginal living entity, namely the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness.

What I have said all along is that tatastha consciousness is actually the dreamless dreaming state of the nitya-baddha consciousness ACHIEVED after passing through the mahat-tattva. Therefore jiva tatastha is not the foundation or origin of whom the living entity really is. No living entity can originate from tatastha condition of individual consciousness, they can only enter that dreamless dreaming conscious condition temporarily.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘He (the living entity) thinks that (impersonal Brahmajyoti) may be his origin , but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada - ‘You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

And why is this so? Because the permeant imperishable condition of all living entities is their perpetually nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is eternally liberated and always situate in Goloka or Vaikuntha,

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

In other words our Svarupa body is eternal even if we are dreaming we are in the maha-tattva or tatastha condition of consciousness. Also being in tatastha is NOT spiritual in the sense of devotional mellows as Srila Prabhupada has explained.

Also the meaning of the Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

Actually what you are presenting are misconceptions and a collection juggled quotes that give an incorrect presentation of Srila Prabhupada teachings. What you are trying to present to others is not understanding the essence of his teachings nor the depth, in fact it appears to be polluted by other so called Vishnava sects that also could never understand that Srila Prabhupada made it very clear we all never originated from ‘tatastha consciousness’.

Also it was Srila Prabhupada who said we never originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of individual consciousness. He made it very clear we did not originate from tatastha consciousness which is the impersonal condition of ones nitya baddha dreaming consciousness, which is a secondary conditional state of the marginal living entity activated when they want to attempt to be lord and forget Krishna and their own nitya-siddha eternal body.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada: - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the propensity of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2,
1975)

The tatastha condition of consciousness is simply the dream of the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness after they become fed up of actively dreaming within the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu and controlled by His wife Maya.

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krishna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada - “But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousnesses. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

The nitya baddha dreaming consciousness that enters the material dreaming creation of Maha-Vishnu as self centred dreams can later proceed to the tatastha impersonal condition of a dreamless dream. This is certainly not a separate place, but rather a conditional state of individual consciousness manifesting in a cluster called the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Tatastha is simply a state of individual consciousness sometimes referred to as jiva tatastha or s’akti, or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti sometimes called jiva sparks or rays of living individual particles of light, which is really a cluster of marginal living entities manifesting as their dreaming dreamless nitya-baddha consciousness. Every marginal living entity has both a perpetual nitya-siddha body and the propensity to manifest a nitya baddha consciousness due to free will. Without free will everything would be all one consciousness

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krishna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles).

Srila Prabhupada - “In the spiritual sky of the Brahmajyoti there is no change of various kalpas or millenniums, and there are no creative activities in the Vaikuntha worlds. The influence of time is conspicuous by its absence. The rays of the transcendental body of the Lord, the unlimited Brahmajyoti, are undeterred by the influence of material energy. Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.3 purport,

This goes way deeper than many can presently comprehend. There is a paradox in trying to understand this. You are right if you say the nitya-baddha consciousness does not come from Goloka because only the nitya-siddhas are in Goloka. So what is nitya-baddha consciousness? If it does not came from Goloka where does it come from? This is hard to understand and explain in English.

I think the best way to understand this is let’s compare the nitya-siddha body to a bright Sun and the nitya-baddha consciousness to darkness. In the presents of the sun there is no darkness, it simply does not exist. In the same way, in the presents or awareness of ones nitya-siddha body, there is no nitya-baddha consciousness, it simply does not exist. Also when there is darkness (nitya-baddha) it’s not that there is no sun (nitya-siddha), it simply means we cannot see it.

Srila Prabhupada – “’This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The darkness or the nitya-baddha consciousness is compared also to the tatastha condition of consciousness that is a characteristic born of darkness, such consciousness is tatastha s’akti of the jiva. In fact within that darkness also exists the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Now this place is a real manifestation in the spiritual Sky that takes up 25%, so it is not an illusion it is simply a temporary phenomenon

Srila Prabhupada – “.We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

In this way the jiva as there nitya-baddha secondary self originates from the darkness, from tatastha however, the full potential of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka or Vaikuntha as their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving Krishna.

It is very clear that we never originated from tatastha consciousness because we are already a resident of Goloka and have been there without beginning or end; presently we cannot see that because we are dreaming.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada - ‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

The true facts of Spiritual life and the identity, personality, individuality of all marginal living entities, is their full Svarupa, expression of Vigraha (bodily form) eternal loving selfless devotion to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna, the cause of all causes. Our full spiritual identity does not originate from tatastha only our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can enter the mahat-tattva and then the tatastha condition of inactive or dormant consciousness. We (our full constitutional nitya-siddha body) certainly do not originate from tatastha consciousness; no jiva soul (marginal living entity) originates from such an impersonal foundation that is not possible because perpetually we are eternal bodily servants of Krishna.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 24th, 2007
10 Akruranatha

Bhakta Rod:

Please do not feel defensive, but listen to Shiva. You are conflating different concepts and making things overly complicated.

The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal. The jivas belong to the marginal energy, also known as “tatastha sakti”.

That means, although they are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy, they may misuse their independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords over His material energy.

In so doing, they falsely identify with the Lord’s material energy, and in fact it predominates over them and defeats them. (Although they have the illusion or “dream” that they may predominate over the Lord’s energy, they are repeatedly defeated in their attempts, again and again).

It is not a question of “tatastha consciousness”. Where are you getting that phrase from?

A jiva is a jiva, and is always a jiva. The jiva devotees are led by Srivasa Thakur in the Panca Tattva. Even Srivasa Thakur and Narada Muni are tatastha sakti.

Some jivas are eternally liberated, but they are still jivas. They may not at any time become shakti tattva any more than they may become vishnu tattva. They are jiva tattva or “tatastha sakti” by their very nature. It is good to be a jiva, as long as we constantly chant Hare Krishna and do not misuse our marginal independence.

Krishna describes the jivas in the 7th Chapter of Bhagavad Gita as “para prakrti”: apareyam ithas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param jiva bhuta maha baho yayedam dharyate jagat (7.5)

What you are saying about “dreaming” is alright. When we surrender to Krishna we will wake up from the “dream” of being masters of material energy and will see our real position, as well Krishna’s real position as the master and origin of all the energies.

You are correct that the false ego or contaminated consciousness is also a material covering or one of the elements of Krishna’s material energy: bhumir apo ‘nalo vayu kham mano buddhir eva ca ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir asthada (7.4)

As such it is material (Krishna’s external energy). The mind, the intellegence, and even the false ego (ahankara), are inert. They have no power to act unless touched by the jiva or spirit soul. They also do not have eternal existence.

It seems you are conflating the phrase “tatastha sakti” with ahankara or false ego. Actually the phrase “tathastha sakti” refers to Krishna’s marginal energy, which is made up of unlimited jiva spirit souls.

It may be a semantic distinction, but semantics are important. We have to understand the terminology that Lord Caitanya and the acaryas used to be able to explain their teachings in the right way.

The whole debate about whether the jiva falls or never falls is pretty much useless and uninteresting as far as I am concerned. Srila Prabhupada did not encourage us to debate this point.

At San Francisco Ratha Yatra this year (and last year), a good portion of the Question & Answer booth time was taken up with some devotees’ peculiar interest in this topic. Even a little seven-year-old boy came up this year to ask Trivikrama Swami a question (and I was hoping we would finally get to a better subject), and then it turned out his parents or someone had put him up to asking about whether the jiva ever fell from Vaikuntha. It mostly always ends up as a dry, speculative discussion without any real juice.

We really need to learn to just humbly and submissively hear from Srila Prabhupada rather than get involved in such scholastic-style controversies.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 24th, 2007
11 Unregistered

Yes we are dreaming our material continuation as well as our existence in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti (tatastha) if we dare go to that dreaming dreamless impersonal state of our own nitya-baddha consciousness.

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (nitya-baddha)beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation)

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position”. Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu - “We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth” Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

Srila Prabhupada - “we are dreaming life after life. As human being, as animal, as tree, as aquatics. Jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati. This evolutionary process is going on”.Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “You are right when you say our past life is a dream only. Just like at night we see so many dreams and in daytime we forget everything. Similarly we forget everything of our past life and as such so long we do not be reposed to our spiritual factual life, all these changes of lives one after another are considered to be dreams” Letter to Nandakisora, Sunday, December 24, 1967

According to Srila Jiva Goswami the living entity may be designated as jiva-maya, whereas matter is called guna-maya. The living entity places his living potency (jiva-maya) in the grip of the mundane qualitative potency (guna-maya) and falsely dreams that he is part and parcel of the material world. Such an artificial mixture is called illusion or ignorance

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972

When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being’s dream, or a display of His thought energy. Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed “beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

Srila Prabhupada - “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination” (Bhag.11.2.38)

Srila Prabhupada “Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power.

Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep.

When Krishna is forgotten, the jiva (as there nitya-0baddha secondary self) comes to imagine himself different from serving Krishna and, thus, starts turning endlessly on the wheel of birth and death.

He who fails to take advantage of his human body through which he can acquire Self-knowledge and devotion, can never hope to live in peace. One should, therefore, stop indulging in activities which appear to be conducive to freedom and happiness, but from which one reaps nothing but misery. Using discrimination and wisdom one should give up the sense-pleasure of this world and the next and develop devotion to Krishna. For only through intense concentration of hearing and chanting the glories of Krishna can the mind acquire the power to realise the original identity and svarupa of the jiva (nitya-siddha) and their perpetual rasa with the Supreme Personality of Godhead (Krishna) whom is the sole aim of all human endeavour.

Srila Prabhupada - “A spirit soul who falls down from the Brahmajyoti to the kingdom of maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha or to Goloka Vrindaban. From the Brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the Bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha”. 69-07-24. Letter: Rupanuga

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’ Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka
We all can enter Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva creation, however no one originates from Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming mahat-tattva creation. We can only enter His dark cloud as our dreaming nitya-baddha lower self that is then given vessels by Maha-Vishnu to act out our mistaken desires within His mahat-tattva (material creation)

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

Srila Prabhupada -”Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency” CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krishna, so Krishna is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.”

Srila Prabhupada- ‘That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - “And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is… ”

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity”April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly… The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

Srila Prabhupada -”As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada -”Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka,(not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness -

Guru-krpa - “They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . .”
Acyutananda - “The original sin”.

Sudama- “Why we are envious”.

Guru-krpa - “How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . .”

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Yes’.

Guru-krpa - “How is it that . . .

Srila Prabhupada - “That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate”.

Sudama - “It is very hard to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Acyutananda - “In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krishna’s associates?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

Srila Prabhupada - “Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position” Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

Comment posted by Svarupa on September 24th, 2007
12 Unregistered

Swarupa or Bhakta Rod, I don’t know where you get the idea that tatastha is analogous with brahmajyoti, and that it’s a place where jivas can go to, nor where your ideas about “tatastha consciousness” are coming from. You claim that Srila Prabhupada supports your views on this, but in fact as has been shown, he does not. Your insistence that Srila Prabhupada supports your ideas about tatastha is based upon your extrapolations from what he has actually written and said which in fact directly contradicts what he says and what the sastra and other acaryas have written about tatastha sakti.

Akruranath prabhu what you said is correct, although there was one little bit that was a bit off. You wrote:

Some jivas are eternally liberated, but they are still jivas. They may not at any time become shakti tattva any more than they may become vishnu tattva. They are jiva tattva or “tatastha sakti” by their very nature.

Sakti-Tattva is not a category of living entity like tatastha-sakti or Visnu-tattva. In gaudiya vaisnavism it is a term which refers to the sakti principle. Jivas are part of the sakti principle, therefore jivas are sakti-tattva.

But Advaita Acarya is isvara-tattva. He’s not sakti-tattva. He’s isvara-tattva. And we are all sakti-tattva; therefore there is difference. Sakti-saktiman. Although there is no difference abhinna, but still, sakti-tattva is superior, er, saktiman tattva is superior than sakti-tattva. (ACBS Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 1.12 — Mayapur, April 5, 1975)

So jiva-bhuta, we jivas, we are all prakrti. Purusa is only Krsna. All living entities… Visnu-tattva is purusa-tattva, and we are sakti-tattva, sakti, energy, marginal energy of Krsna. So energy is prakrti. The prakrti is not purusa. (ACBS Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 1.13-14 — London, July 14, 1973)

The idea of sakti-tattva is that whatever belongs in the sakti category can be called sakti-tattva. I have seen where some people claim that sakti-tattva refers solely to Sri Radha’s personal expansions or to expansions of the swarupa or cit-sakti. In that conception they teach the idea that there is a type of living entity which can be called sakti-tattva in the same sense that jiva’s are called tatastha-sakti and Bhagavan is called Visnu-tattva or Isvara-Tattva. They have created a third type of living entity besides God and the jiva with that type of philosophy. In reality there are only two types of living entities. There is God and there is the jiva. Jiva Goswami makes thise clear in Krsna Sandarbha Anuccheda 27

TEXT 17

This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

” The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

TEXT 18

” There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them.”

And also in the Caitanya Caritamrta Mahaprabhu says:

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 22.8-9

svamsa-vibhinnamsa-rupe hana vistara
ananta vaikuntha-brahmande karena vihara

Krsna expands Himself in many forms. Some of them are personal expansions, and some are separate expansions. Thus He performs pastimes in both the spiritual and the material worlds. The spiritual worlds are the Vaikuntha planets, and the material universes are the brahmandas, gigantic globes governed by Lord Brahma

svamsa-vistara — catur-vyuha, avatara-gana
vibhinnamsa jiva — tanra saktite ganana

Expansions of His personal self — like the quadruple manifestations of Sankarsana, Pradyumna, Aniruddha and Vasudeva — descend as incarnations from Vaikuntha to this material world. The separated expansions are the living entities. Although they are expansions of Krsna, they are counted among His different potencies.

PURPORT

The personal expansions are known as visnu-tattva, and the separated expansions are known as jiva-tattva. Although the jivas (living entities) are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, they are still counted among His multipotencies.

So there are only two types of living entities, Visnu tattva and Jiva Tattva. The people who claim that there is a third type of living entity whom they refer to as sakti-tattva usually claim that Radha and her plenary expansions belong to that third category and that they are not Visnu Tattva. The fact is that Sri Radha and her plenary expansions are both Isvara-Tattva (Isvari) or Visnu-Tattva and sakti-Tattva. Because sakti-tattva refers to the general principle of being a sakti of the Lord, and not to a specific type of living entity, therefore they are both. Sri Radha is the not only the primary sakti of the Lord she is also identical to the Lord. She is Visnu Tattva.

From Srimad Bhagavatam 6.19.13

guna-vyaktir iyam devi
vyanjako guna-bhug bhavan
tvam hi sarva-sariry atma
srih sarirendriyasayah
nama-rupe bhagavati
pratyayas tvam apasrayah

Mother Lakshmi, who is here, is the reservoir of all spiritual qualities, whereas You manifest and enjoy all these qualities. Indeed, You are actually the enjoyer of everything. You live as the Supersoul of all living entities, and the goddess of fortune is the form of their bodies, senses and minds. She also has a holy name and form, whereas You are the support of all such names and forms and the cause for their manifestation.

PURPORT

Madhvacarya, the acarya of the Tattvavadis, has described this verse in the following way: “Vishnu is described as yajna personified, and mother Lakshmi is described as spiritual activities and the original form of worship. In fact, they represent spiritual activities and the Supersoul of all yajna. Lord Vishnu is the Supersoul even of Lakshmidevi, but no one can be the Supersoul of Lord Vishnu, for Lord Vishnu Himself is the spiritual Supersoul of everyone.”

According to Madhvacarya, there are two tattvas, or factors. One is independent, and the other is dependent. The first tattva is the Supreme Lord, Vishnu, and the second is the jiva-tattva. Lakshmidevi, being dependent on Lord Vishnu, is sometimes counted among the jivas. The Gaudiya Vaishnavas, however, describe Lakshmidevi in accordance with the following two verses from the Prameya-ratnavali of Baladeva Vidyabhushana. The first verse is a quotation from the Vishnu Purana.

nityaiva sa jagan-mata
vishnoh srir anapayini
yatha sarva-gato vishnus
tathaiveyam dvijottama
vishnoh syuh saktayas tisras
tasu ya kirtita para
saiva sris tad-abhinneti
praha sishyan prabhur mahan

“O best of the brahmanas, Lakshmiji is the constant companion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vishnu, and therefore she is called anapayini. She is the mother of all creation. As Lord Vishnu is all-pervading, His spiritual potency, mother Lakshmi, is also all-pervading.” Lord Vishnu has three principal potencies — internal, external and marginal. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has accepted para-sakti, the spiritual energy of the Lord, as being identical with the Lord. Thus she is also included in the independent vishnu-tattva.”

In the Kanti-mala commentary on the Prameya-ratnavali there is this statement:

nanu kvacit nitya-mukta jivatvam lakshmyah svikritam, tatraha — praheti. nityaiveti padye sarva-vyapti-kathanena kalakashthety adi-padya-dvaye, suddho ‘pity ukta ca mahaprabhuna svasishyan prati lakshmya bhagavad-advaitam upadishtam. kvacid yat tasyas tu dvaitam uktam, tat tu tad-avishta-nitya-mukta jivam adaya sangatamas tu.

“Although some authoritative Vaishnava disciplic successions count the goddess of fortune among the ever-liberated living entities (jivas) in Vaikuntha, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in accordance with the statement in the Vishnu Purana, has described Lakshmi as being identical with the vishnu-tattva. The correct conclusion is that the descriptions of Lakshmi as being different from Vishnu are stated when an eternally liberated living entity is imbued with the quality of Lakshmi; they do not pertain to mother Lakshmi, the eternal consort of Lord Vishnu.”

In his his Govinda Bhasya commentary on the Vedanta Sutra, Baladeva Vidhyabhusana adds some more to this:

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

The Lord’s forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them.

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

“Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.”

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted. As Lord Visnu has limitless transcendental qualities, so does Goddess Laksmi. In the scriptures it is said:

“O Goddess, even if we had tongues like the demigod Brahma, we still could not describe all Your transcendental qualities. O Lotus-eyed Goddess Laksmi, please do not ever abandon your devotees.”

When Lord Visnu assumes different forms, Goddess Laksmi also assumes different forms and follows Him. In the scriptures it is said:

“When Lord Visnu assumes the form of a demigod, Goddess Laksmi assumes the form of a demigoddess. When He assumes the form of a human man, she assumes the form of a human woman. In this way she assumes a form to match the form of Lord Visnu.”

Sri Radha is the origin of all the forms of Goddess Laksmi. Sri Krsna is the origin of all the forms of Lord Visnu. In the Purusa-bodhini Upanisad it is said:

“In the land of Gokula in Mathura-mandala, Lord Krsna resides. At His two sides are Radha and Candravali.”

There it is also said:

“Laksmi, Durga, and the Lord’s potencies are expansions of Sri Radha.”

So the plenary expansions of Sri Radha do not belong to a third category of living entity called sakti-tattva. They are sakti-tattva but that refers to the principle of their being the hladini-sakti and the swarupa-sakti of the Lord, which are identical to the Lord.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes in his Sri Tattva Sutra:

In Visnu Purana (1.22.53) it is said:

“Just as the illumination of a fire, which is situated in one place, is spread over, the energies of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Parabrahman, are spread all over the universe.”*

In the Markandeya Purana, Devi-mahatmya, the sage explains:

“O king, now I will describe to you the glories of the goddess. By her power she sustains the entire world.

“She is the potency of Lord Visnu. From her comes transcendental knowledge. You and many others have attained transcendental knowledge by her grace.”

In the Narada-pancaratra, Second Night, Third Chapter, Lord Siva explains:

“The Supreme Lord is one. Still, He is manifested in two forms. One form is female: the potency of Lord Visnu. The other form is male: Lord Visnu.”

From the intro to Srila Prabhupada’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya:

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna (Radha’s display). Although we speak of “when” Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that They also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested himself in the separate form of Radharani.

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi Lila

CC Adi 4.72: “I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hladini]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa.”

CC Adi 4.73: Now please listen to how Lord Krsna’s consorts help Him taste rasa and how they help in His pastimes.

CC Adi 4.74-75: The beloved consorts of Lord Krsna are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Radhika.

CC Adi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Krsna, is the cause of all incarnations, so Sri Radha is the cause of all these consorts.

CC Adi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Srimati Radhika, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

CC Adi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilasa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakasa.

CC Adi 4.79: The Vraja-devis have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

CC Adi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Srimati Radharani to assist in the Lord’s pastimes.

CC Adi 4.81: Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna’s pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

The plenary expansions of Krsna’s personality are called vaibhava-vilasa and vaibhava-prakasa, and Radha’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilasa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakasa forms. The personal associates of Radharani, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Krsna, under the supreme direction of Srimati Radharani. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Radharani, who are also known as gopis or sakhis. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Sri Krsna, and therefore these expansions from Srimati Radharani are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Sri Krsna. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vrndavana. By these expansions of Srimati Radharani’s personal body, She helps Lord Krsna taste the rasa dance and other, similar activities. Srimati Radharani, being the central petal of the rasa-lila flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

Comment posted by shiva on September 26th, 2007
13 Unregistered

Associates of Sri Caitanya

His Divine Grace
Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
Srila Prabhupada

In this immortal work of spiritual genius, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura describes the method by which the Lord descends to deliver the fallen souls. Although composed in very high English, the sincere seeker will find in this short essay profound explanation as to the nature and function of Guru.

SRI KRSNA CAITANYA IS SRI KRSNA HIMSELF. The associates of Sri Krsna Caitanya are ‘constituents of Himself. It is our object in this short paper to study the implications of these doctrines. Sri Krsna’s active existence involves the undivided operation of the following six divine entities viz., gurus, devotees, avataras (divine descents), divine manifestations, divine powers, and Godhead Himself. All these are jointly and severally divine.

As Sri Krsna Caitanya is identical with Sri Krsna the active existence of Sri Caitanya also implies the cooperation of the above six divine categories.

When Sri Krsna Caitanya was pleased to manifest His appearance on this mundane plane all the six constituents of Himself also necessarily made their appearance as part and parcel of Himself. In the marvelous work, Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika, we have the detailed identification of the several characters who are Divinely associated in the performances of Si Krsna Caitanya with the corresponding characters in the Dvapara lila of Sri Krsna. This correspondence is an essential part of the religion of pure devotion propounded by Sri Krsna Caitanya. In the opening verses of his great work Sri Caitanyacaritamrta, Sri Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami accordingly makes his obeisance to Sri Krsna Caitanya in His above six-fold form.

APPEARANCE OF THE DIVINE

The appearance of Godhead in this world implies the co-appearance of all His divine paraphernalia. Godhead must not be conceived as in any way separable from His entourage. Godhead shorn of any of His paraphernalia is a delusion. In the same way the appearance of divine paraphernalia involves the appearance of the divinity. The two are distinct yet inseparable forms of the one Supreme.

Sri Caitanya is the Divine Personality Himself. His associates share His divine nature. Sri Krsna Caitanya is an extended subject. All the six divine forms have to be worshipped if it is the intention to worship Sri Caitanya.

The guru is one of His constituents. It is necessary to receive initiation from him. It is also necessary to be instructed by him. As teacher the guru has two forms. He guides from within. He also appears as a guide and instructor existing outside his disciples. Initiation is received from one person only. Instructions may be had from many gurus. Sri Kaviraja Gosvami himself was instructed by the famous six Gosväniins.

GUIDE TO THE ABSOLUTE

The guru is the embodiment of the manifestation of the divinity to the pure receptive spiritual essence of the disciple. The guru is the real and original recipient of the Truth. He communicates his knowledge to the disciple. The disciple is too small a particle to be able by himself to receive the whole truth. He is enabled to receive Him through the power of the guru. The guru, as it were, takes the disciple by the hand and guides his every step on the plane of the Absolute. It is perpetual tutelage on the part of the disciple. This fact may be expressed in another way. The cognitive faculty of the individual soul can have no ground to stand upon unless the Divinity Himself condescends to be the legs as well as the ground on which he is to stand to function at all. This function of the divinity is performed by the guru. As a matter of fact the Divinity actually reveals Him only to Himself. The individual soul is a separable constituent of the guru. It is only when he happens to be associated by his own free choice with the guru in a completely dependent manner that he can be on the plane of the guru’s service of the Divinity. He may or may not choose to be so associated. The guru may or may not choose to admit him to his association. When there is active willing assent to such association on the part of both then it is possible for the individual soul to attain to the service of the Divinity in the really conscious form.

ALONE FIT TO INSTRUCT

Every one who is cognizant of the true nature of Krsna is alone fit to instruct another in the knowledge of Krsna. The Divine paraphernalia are the gurus of an individual souls. In this sense all the six divine categories are identical with the guru. It can be so by reason c the fact that on the plane of the Absolute there is no separative difference. On that perfectly wholesome plane there is distinction without difference. But there is also the distinctive function of the guru which must be considered as also simultaneously distinct from that of any of the other categories. One who neglects to see] the special favor of the guru and to enter into the relation of discipleship with the spiritual guide will miss entry to the spiritual plane. Nityananda is the Primary Manifestive Constituent of the Divinity. Nityananda alone possesses the distinctive function of the guru. In Nityananda the function is embodied. Nityananda is the servant-God. He serves Sri Gaurasundar by the distinctive method of reverential servitude. He is identical with Sri Balarama of krsna-lila Sri Balarama is not the chum of Krsna, but His respected elder brother. It is intimate relationship characterized by becoming reserved on one side and of respectful deference on the other. Individual souls are under the direction of Nityananda. They receive their service of Sri Gaurasundar i.e. of Krsna, at his hands. Nityananda is not a jiva. He is Divinity He is the ultimate source of the jiva. The jiva is a potency of Nityananda. No jiva can be the medium of the service of the Absolute to another jiva. The Absolute alone may communicate His service to the separable constituents of Himself. This is the real nature of the function of the guru.

NEVER TOUCHED BY MAYA

But all jivas are not liable to be eclipsed by the deluding potency. Those who are so liable are again distinct from the eternally free jivas. The eternally free jivas are inseparable associates of Nityananda. They an integrated part and parcel of Himself. They never fall into the clutches of maya. When Nityananda manifests His appearance on the mundane plane His inseparable constituents also appear in His company. They sometimes manifest their function on this lower place in a visible form on the errands of Nityananda. They are Vaisnavas whose subordination to Nityananda is natural and ingrained in their nature. It is not necessary for such souls to undergo the process of enlightenment for being restored to the spiritual plane. Unless this fact is borne in mind the conditioned soul may be tempted to undervalue the constant guidance of the guru on the hypocritical plea of following in the footsteps of the eternally free pure devotees. Those, therefore, who suppose that deliverance from the bondage of this world should be practicable without the constant guidance of the spiritual preceptor, confound the conditioned state with the free.

The guidance of the guru is no curtailment of one’s spiritual freedom. Those who are eternally free also follow his guidance by the spontaneous undeviating impulse of their perfectly pure nature. Guidance of the guru is the only divine guidance. Only atheists who are by their choice opposed to the service of Godhead, can be consistent opponents of the obligation to serve the guru in the same unconditional way as one should be prepared to serve Godhead Himself. There is no difference between the two functions. If the claim of the one is denied it necessarily involves the denial of the claim of the other. Nityananda and His companions form one of the five groups of the associates of Sri Krsna Caitanya, whose distinctive function is that of the guru.

SRIMATI RADHIKA

But Nityananda does not directly instruct in the confidential service of Krsna. Srimati Radhika is the guru of the inner circle of the servants of Krsna. Srimati, however, accepts the offer of service of only those souls who are specially favored by Nityananda and are deemed by Him to be fit for Her service. There is, therefore a most intimate relationship between the function of Nityananda and that of Srimati which is at once supplementary and inclusive of the former.

The guru admits to the service of Krsna. The next category is the bhakta or devotee. In this case also as in that of the guru, service of the divinity which is the distinctive function of the bhakta, is not confined to him only. The servants have been divided into two classes viz., (1) servants other than consorts and (2) consorts. The guru has distinctive function as master. The servant has no distinctive function as master. This distinguishes the guru from the bhakta. The bhakta is also Godhead in the distinctive form of this servant to whom the guru manifests the divinity. The mercy of the bhakta enables the dissociable soul to receive the mercy of the guru. The guru and the bhakta are the inseparable divine counterparts of one another.

The guru and the bhakta are thus two distinct entities forming the five categories. The avataras (descending divinities) are the third category They are their distinctive functions in the maintenance and deliverance of jivas inclined to divine service. They have distinctive functions as master. The difference between the avataras and the divinity as master consists in this that the avatäras are derivatives from the divinity possessing the plenary divine nature. The relation between the two is analogous to that between the original self-existing source-light and other shining lamps that have been lighted from the source. There is no substantive or magnitudinal difference between the two. But there is distinctiveness in function. The avataras have distinctive natures of their own. But the divinity is their common source possessing all their distinctive functions in a synthesis which distinguishes Him from the avataras without suffering any diminution of His divinity by the eternal parallel coexistence of the distinctive activities and personalities of the avataras also as divinities.

Another divine category is the group of the divine manifestations. The manifestations are divine forms who are either identical with that of the divinity or of a distinctive nature. Krsna can appear simultaneously in the same form or in different forms to different persons and also simultaneously retain His own form. All these other forms are His own manifestations.

The fifth divine category is divine power. Divine power is the Predominated Moiety of the divinity who is Predominating Whole. Sri Radhika is the Predominated Counter-Whole of Sri Krsna. Sri Radhika has Her duplicates and constituents who are also of the nature of plenary powers of the divinity. Sri Radhika is the female consort in the Supreme Divine Pair. She is the source of all the distinctive divine powers that serve as the corresponding counter-wholes of the infinite manifestations and avataras of the divinity. She also directly serves Sri Krsna in an infinity of ways in Her countless distinctive plenary and secondary forms.

NECESSITY TO SERVE THROUGH AN
ASSOCIATE OF MAHAPRABHU

The associates of Sri Krsna Caitanya are made up of the five divine categories. If any of these categories be left out the Truth who is indivisibly one, refuses to present Himself to the arrogant aptitude of the pedant who does not fully submit to be enlightened by grace regarding the necessity of serving the divinity in and through the distinctions.

The pedant is disposed to be skeptical by reason of a lurking belief that it is the look-out of the divinity to make Himself known to him. But the jiva is a dissociable particle of the divine essence with the onus of choosing for himself from among the alternatives of a serving, a neutral and a disobedient career, his own relationship to the divinity. He cannot escape the privilege of exercising this responsibility except by conscious self-deception on by hypocrisy.

MARGINAL POTENCY

The dissociable individual soul is distinct from the divine categories. He is a particle of the marginal potency of the divinity. Sri Nityananda who is identical with Balarama is the ultimate source of the jiva. The conditioned soul is a particle of the marginal potency, who has been sent into this world by the will of the Purusa, viz., Visnu reposing in the Causal Ocean, who is a plenary part of Nityananda exercising the divine function of creator of all mundane existence including the conditioned state without Himself belonging to the mundane plane.

Comment posted by SriGopaldas on September 26th, 2007
14 Unregistered

There is a mistake in comment #11. Second sentence, Svarupa has copied that from sarva gattah, it should read - Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka as our (NITYA-SIDDHA ENDLESS BODY)serving Krishna beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation)

The mistake is corrected in capitals

Hare Krishna, your servant Bhakta Rod

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 26th, 2007
15 Unregistered

MARGINAL POTENCY

“The dissociable individual soul is distinct from the divine categories. He is a particle of the marginal potency of the divinity. Sri Nityananda who is identical with Balarama is the ultimate source of the jiva. The conditioned soul is a particle of the marginal potency, who has been sent into this world by the will of the Purusa, viz., Visnu reposing in the Causal Ocean, who is a plenary part of Nityananda exercising the divine function of creator of all mundane existence including the conditioned state without Himself belonging to the mundane plane”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

This subject is very difficult to comprehend however, Srila Prabupada clearly states that we, the marginal living entity, did not originate from a tatastha state of consciousness BECAUSE ALL marginal living entities or jivas have a perpetual bodily form that NEVER leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha, we only ‘think’ or ‘dream’ that we leave Goloka.

One should try and understand this and forget about this nonsense idea we, the marginal living entity or jiva, originates from some nonsense Impersonal tatastha s’akti concept of their own marginal consciousness. Such Impersonalism has unfortunately polluted so many Vaishnave groups and their presentation or translation of the Acarayas and Shastra.

What does that mean and what is the trueth? It simply means that our own marginal identity (also known as jiva) as its dreaming secondary bodiless consciousness is really the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. This secondary consciousness of the jiva soul or marginal living entity is simply a manifestation of the marginal living entities or jiva souls dormant or inactive as nitya-baddha secondary dreaming dreamless consciousness achieved only after actively travelling through the maha-tattva. Let me gradually explain as follows -

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls secondary (nitya-baddha) condition of being or inactive consciousness when they attempt to become inactive after experiencing frustration within the mahat-tattva. Attempting to obliterate their consciousness means they have no information or realization that they (every marginal living entity or jiva soul) have a perpetual body eternally established within the timeless realm of Goloka-Vrndavana.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and personally told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, not as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, but as a dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is facilitated with bodily costumes provided by Maha-Vishnu, or can eventually merge as an individual spark of consciousness within His body, which is true but only after we have ’sub-consciously’ come down from Goloka as our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming sub-conscious thoughts .

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because they never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Technically there is no origin to the jivas or living entities because they all have an eternal bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is there without beginning or end.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God’s creation is the three-fourths manifestation . . . This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, transformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada – “All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, tranformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world”. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu”.

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the jiva-tattva and can also be the jiva-tatastha and about 170 other jiva definations however, they are all the extended secondary consciousness of their nitya-siddha body when one chooses to use their free will and ignore Krishna.

It therefore can be correct that the jiva soul comes from tatastha however, they all (nitya-baddha consciousness) have to first travel through the the mahat-tattva first before reaching that dormant state of their own dreamless dream.

The nitya-baddha or secondary dreaming condition of the jiva-tattva are the same, such a sub-conscious projection of the marginal living entity while forgetful of their nitya-sidda genuin and eternal bodily form serving Krishna in Goloka, is devoid of form until they are either given form by Maha-Vishnu or return back home back to Godhead as their original perpetual svarupa or rasa bodily form in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

It is clear when Srila Prabhupada refers to our “Old” consciousness he meant that we are eternally with Lord Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan as our imperishable devotional eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa (bodily form) devotional body eternally.

Comment posted by Svarupa on September 26th, 2007
16 Akruranatha

Thanks, Shiva, for your exposition on “Shakti Tattva”. I do not know much about Gaudiya siddhanta on this topic, nor the sastric evidences, but I am eager to learn. I will read what you have written carefully (just now I am in the middle of some pressing deadlines).

My (probably mistaken) impression was that the Panca Tattva described by Sri Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami in Sri Caitanya Caritamrta actually referred to five fundamentally different types of being, namely: (1) The Supreme Lord; (2) His expansion (guru); (3) His avatar (plenary expansion); (4) His shakti; and (5) His vibbhinamsa expansion (jiva).

I recall hearing years ago that one difference between the Sri sampradaya’s theology and the Gaudiya-Madhva-Brahma’s is on the question of whether the expansions of the goddess of fortune were jivas or a separate “shakti tattva” category. I thought it was the Gaudiyas who said the Laksmis (and Radharani with all her expansions as gopis or queens) were in a separate category, but maybe it was the other way around.

That is, maybe the Sri sampradaya says goddess Sri is a special category, and we say she is a jiva (but I thought it was the reverse). Or, as you suggest, maybe it is that we say she is in the category of Vishnu as the predominated aspect of His unified (simultaneously one and different) existence of Shaktiman and Shakti.

The truth is, I have not studied these things (these days I have been studying the “nectarean” topic of U.S. Federal bankruptcy procedure….blech)

I see that SriGopal has also written something about this issue (Panca Tattva), which I have not had time to read, but appears to be a quotation from Bhaktisiddhanta that adds a sixth category of “divine manifestation” to the well known 5 listed above.

I am happy to read and learn about these “graduate level” topics. I wish I had more time but at the moment I am swamped with mundane work.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 26th, 2007
17 Akruranatha

I do see now that the 1972 letter to Australian devotees appears to be where this idea of “tatastha consciousness” comes from, in that Srila Prabhupada says impersonal liberated condition is also known as “tatastha”.

So I beg your pardon Bhakta Rod for suggesting earlier that this was just a misconception or concoction. It originates in Srila Prabhupada’s own words.

These are semantic issues. The word “tatastha” usually refers to marginal potency, but apparently sometimes it also refers to the “avisudha buddhaya” (impure intellegence) condition of impersonalists who think themselves liberated but are still subject to falling back into fruitive activities due to their not having become devotees (i.e., having no regard for the Lord’s lotus feet). (ye’nye ‘rivindaksa vimukta maninas … S.B. 10.2.32)

At least, Srila Prabhupada did use it that way in this one letter to Australian devotees.

It does make sense, I suppose, that one situated between the world of devotional service and the world of ignorant fruitive activity — i.e., those merged in impersonal liberation — could be seen as situated on the brink or cusp or dividing line between devotees and karmis.

But that seems to be a completely different use of the word from the use in which it denotes marginality because of the jiva’s ability to be situated either in external energy (maha maya) or the Lord’s internal energy.

Are the two uses of the word “tatastha” (literally, “situated on the brink”) related? Or is it just a coincidence that the same word is used these two different ways?

I think all of us here would probably say it is just a coincidence. At least I take it the main thrust of Bhakta Rod’s argument is that we jivas (also known as “tatastha shakti”), do *not* really belong in impersonal liberation (also sometimes known as “tatastha”, at least in this 1972 letter from Srila Prabhupada). That impersonal liberation is sometimes referred to as “the last snare of maya” and is never accepted by pure devotees. How could it be our “original” or “natural” condition?

Some of the partisans in the “jiva fall” debate may have been confused by these two different sense of the word “tatastha” to think that the (”tatastha shakti”) jivas actually in some sense more properly belong to or “originate in” the (”tatastha”) state of impersonal liberation, from which they then proceed forth either into the spiritual world or the world of mundane fruitive activity.

That is, because the same word is being used in these two ways, some may think (erroneously, I believe) that the impersonal liberated condition (sometimes known as “tatastha”) is natural for the jivas because they are denoted as “tatastha shakti”.

But we followers of Srila Prabhupada (all of us here) know that the impersonal liberation known as sayujya mukti, or the liberation of merging with the supreme, is not original or natural for the jiva but is “spiritual suicide” and is regarded as hellish by pure devotees.

Srila Prabhupada tells us we really belong to the world of devotional service, which is our natural, long lost home, but that as “nitya baddhas” we have been in maya so long that we are said to have been this way “from time immemorial”, i.e. from a fathomless beginningless past so distant that we are said to be “eternally” bound.

I still think the “jiva fall” debate is just a catastrophe. It does not make sense to try to trace out when our ignorance started. It is beginningless, “eternal” in that sense.

To say “nitya baddha” in one sense means we should not concern ourselves with the mechanics of exactly how and when our ignorance started. Trying to search out the original cause in some historical episode is not the way to disentangle ourselves.

If different apparently inconsistent scenarios have been described by various infallible authorities, we can accept them as valid ways of describing something beyond our limited ability to comprend.

I think Srila Prabhupada did not want us to waste time becoming champions of one scenario or another. He mainly warned us not to concern ourselves too much with this question, other than to know that our ignorance results from our own misapplication of our “marginal” free will, and that we now have to be trained to properly apply our free will in devotional service.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 26th, 2007
18 Akruranatha

Okay, Shiva, I have had a chance to read your post and SriGopal’s. (I still have to read them a few more times at least).

I see that we (Gaudiyas) *definitely* do not say that Laksmi is a jiva. Maybe the Tattvavadi followers of Madhvacarya or some other sampradayas may say that, but we do not. That much you have made crystal clear.

We say that she belongs to the same category as Vishnu, but that she is His predominated aspect (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada says “predominated Moiety”). In that sense, although she is nondifferent and inseparable from Krishna, it also does make sense to speak of her as His separate pleasure potency.

Isn’t this expressed in the Caitanya Caritamrta (and in the quote supplied by SriGopal) as a separate category in the Panca Tattva (i.e., that of Sri Gadadhara)?

For example, although we put tulasi leaves on the lotus feet of Lord Caitanya, Lord Nityananda and Lord Advaita, we never put tulasi leaves on Sri Gadadhara’s lotus feet, because he is not Vishnu tattva in that sense, but is in a different category as the Lord’s pleasure potency.

I love the explanation Bhaktisiddhanta gives in the quotation provided by SriGopal, that only those especially favored by Lord Nityananda are admitted into the service of Srimati Radharani, who is the guru in confidential intimate service to Lord Krishna.

And it appears from what you have written that, because the jivas are particles of the marginal shakti, they are also prakrti or “shakti” in that sense. But still they are definitely in a different category from Srimati Radharani and her expansions.

And then there is the whole other fascinating subject of Lord Shiva and how he interacts with that specific expansion of Lakshmi who is Devi, the deluding potency, who is Shiva’s shakti and never touches Vishnu. That subject is discussed to some extent Sri Brahma Samhita.

All this stuff is over my head but I enjoy hearing all the authoritative statements from Caitanya Caritamrta and Bhaktisiddhanta, Jiva Goswami, etc.

I always find with Bhaktisiddhanta that I have to slow down and read each sentence or few sentences very carefully and even then often I haven’t gotten it. We could profitably discuss SriGopal’s quotation above for many, many pages I think.

Thanks to all the devotees for this opportunity to discuss and learn about “shakti”.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 27th, 2007
19 Unregistered

Akruranatha prabhu; about the quote from a letter from Srila Prabhupada where in parenthesis it states:

(impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha)

That is an addition by Bhakta Rod into the letter. The quote he inserted into is part of a well known letter often called “Crow-And-Tal-Fruit Logic” the whole essay can be seen at http://btg.krishna.com/main.php?id=703

Here it is without the insertion by Bhakta Rod:

This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna

Probably where Bhakta Ron is getting the idea that tatastha is analogous with the brahmajyoti is from something written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. But Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did not say that tatastha is analogous with the brahmajyoti, or as Bhakta Ron claims; some type of nitya baddha consciousness, that is an extrapolation by Bhakta Rod. The simple fact is that the jiva is always tatastha-sakti. These are just words meant to convey spiritual concepts. The jiva is a manifestation of Krsna’s energy. The name given to that energy when it manifests itself as the jiva is tatastha-sakti. The name given to that energy when it manifests itself as the material world is maya-sakti or bahiranga-sakti. The name given to that energy when it manifests itself as the spiritual world is cit-sakti or swarupa-sakti or antaranga-sakti.

Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma writes

From the internal potency, Sri Radha, are manifested the three potencies ‘cit-shakti’, ‘jiva-shakti’, and ‘maya-shakti’. These three are seen to be three different kinds of kriya-shakti (potency of action). The cit-shakti is also called ‘antaranga-shakti’, and the jiva shakti is also called ‘tatastha-shakti’. The maya-shakti is also called ‘bahiranga-shakti’. Although it is one, the Lord’s internal potency assumes these three forms in order to act in these different ways

And also from Jaiva Dharma

Bhagavan Visnu is the embodiment of supreme consciousness, and He is the one supreme controller of all. Everything that exists is His potency. Potency is not an independent object (vastu), but rather the functional power inherent within an object (vastu-dharma). To say that sakti (potency) is the root of everything is thoroughly opposed to tattva, metaphysical truth. Sakti cannot exist independent of the object from which it originates. We must first accept the existence of an object that possesses full spiritual consciousness, otherwise accepting sakti by itself is like dreaming of a flower in the sky.

The commentary on Vedanta states, sakti-saktimator abhedah:“There is no difference between the potency and the possessor of potency.” This means that sakti is not a separate object. The Supreme Person who is the master of all potencies is the one truly abiding substance. Sakti is the quality, or inherent function, that is subordinate to His will. You have said that sakti is the embodiment of consciousness, that it possesses will, and that it is beyond the influence of the three qualities of material nature. This is correct, but only insofar as sakti operates fully under the support of a pure conscious entity, and is thus considered identical with that powerful entity. Desire and consciousness depend on the Supreme Being. Desire cannot exist in sakti; rather, sakti acts in accordance with the desire of the Supreme Being. You have the power to move, and when you desire to move, that power will act. To say “the power is moving” is merely a figure of speech; it actually means that the person who possesses that power is moving.

Bhagavan has only one sakti, which is manifest in different forms. When it functions in a spiritual capacity, it is known as cit-sakti, and when it operates in a material capacity, it is known as maya, or jada-sakti. It is stated in the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.8), parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate, “The Vedas say that Bhagavan’s divine sakti is full of variety.”

The sakti that supports the three modes of material nature –sattva, rajah, and tamah – is known as jada-sakti, and its functions are to create and destroy the universe. The Puranas and the Tantra refer to it as visnu-maya, mahamaya, maya, and so on. There are many allegorical descriptions of her activities. For example, it is said that she is the mother of Brahma, Visnu, and Siva, and that she slew the demoniac brothers Sumbha and Nisumbha. The living entity remains under the control of this sakti as long as he is engrossed in material enjoyment. When the jiva is endowed with pure knowledge, he becomes aware of his own svarupa, and this awareness enables him to transcend maya-sakti and attain the liberated status. He then comes under the control of cit-sakti and obtains spiritual happiness.

Digambara: Are you not under the control of some power?

Advaita: Yes, we are jiva-sakti. We have abandoned maya-sakti and come under the protection of cit-sakti.

Digambara: Then you are also a sakta.

Advaita: Yes, the Vaisnavas are true saktas. We are under the control of Sri Radhika, who is the embodiment of cit-sakti. It is only under Her shelter that we render service to Krsna, so who is more of a sakta than the Vaisnavas? We do not see any difference between the Vaisnavas and the real saktas. Those who are only attached to maya-sakti, without taking shelter of cit-sakti, may be called saktas, but they are not Vaisnavas; they are only materialists. In the Narada-pancaratra, Sri Durga Devi explains:

tava vaksasi radhaham rase vrndavane vane

In the forest known as Vrndavana, I am Your internal sakti, Sri Radhika, who adorns Your chest in the rasa dance.

From this statement of Durga Devi, it is clear that there is only one sakti, not two. That sakti is Radhika when She manifests as the internal potency, and she is Durga when she is manifested as the external potency. In the condition of freedom from contact with the material modes of nature, visnu-maya is the cit-sakti. That same visnu-maya is the jada-sakti when it is endowed with the modes of nature.

Digambara: You said that you are jiva-sakti. What is that?

Advaita: Bhagavan has said in the Bhagavad-gita (7.4-5):

bhumir apo ‘nalo vayuh kham mano buddhir eva ca
ahankara itiyam me bhinna prakrtir astadha
apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param
jiva-bhutam maha-baho yayedam dharyate jagat

My inferior, or material prakrti, is comprised of the eight components: earth, water, fire, air, space, mind, intelligence, and ego. These eight elements are under the control of jadamaya. There is however another prakrti which is superior to this jada-prakrti and which consists of the jivas. By it this material world is perceived or seen.

Digambara, do you know the glory of Bhagavad-gita? This sastra is the essence of the instructions of all the sastras, and it resolves all conflicts between the various philosophical ideologies. It establishes that the category of entities known as jiva-tattva is fundamentally different from the material world and is one of Isvara’s potencies. Learned authorities refer to this tattva as the tatastha-sakti. This sakti is superior to the external potency and inferior to the internal potency. Therefore, the jivas are a unique sakti of Krsna.

Comment posted by shiva on September 27th, 2007
20 Unregistered

Akruranatha dasa everything you have written I agree with and have explained, except of course that we originate from tatastha consciousness.

What is tatastha consciousness?.

Tatastha means those living entities who are neutral, inactive or dormant in consciousness, who are border line, neither in the Vaikuntha’s or the mahat-tattva

The tatastha-shakti is located on the boundaries between the material and spiritual energies. Tatastha means “in between”. It also means that this consciousness condition of the marginal living entity is sometimes manifested and sometimes not manifested, like the material energy. Yet the potency is always there since it exists within the Supreme Lord. What is the marginal living entity? What is the jiva soul? What is the nitya-siddha perpetual body? What is nitya baddha consciousness? What is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman?

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya and Impersonal Brahman is not a place where one goes; it is not some empty place or void, it is rather the dormant state of the marginal living entities or jiva souls condition of being or inactive consciousness when they attempt to become inactive.

This motionless individual consciousness that can also be active or energetic in the mahat-tattva (material creation) is called the nitya-baddha inferior self or the secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity. This nitya-baddha consciousness is the inferior dreaming condition that all marginal living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will to ‘dream’ of self importance and indulgence.

Srila Prabhupada- “There are many energies, but they have been divided into three principal ones: the external energy, the internal energy, and the marginal energy. We living entities are the marginal energy. Marginal means that we may remain under the influence of the external energy or we may remain under the influence of the internal energy, as we like”. From “The Journey of Self Discovery - His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

In other words, the marginal living entity, referred to as the jiva soul, has two aspects of consciousness; one is a perpetual Krishna Conscious bodily form (nitya-siddha) while the other is a non-Krishna conscious dreaming state (nitya-baddha)

The living entities are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy as perpetual bodily servants known as nitya-siddhas, when the marginal livig entity misuses their independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords; they are transferred to the material energy or mahat-tattva, not as their nitya siddha body, but as a secondary consciousness called nitya-baddha.
The Lord has three basic energies: internal, external and marginal.

The jivas don’t belong to the marginal energy, because they ARE the marginal energy that is embodied in their original full constitutional foundation, which is expressed as nitya-siddha in their innovative perpetual position. The marginal living entity can also be known as “tatastha sakti” due to their inferior or secondary nitya-baddha consciousness when it enters a dormant inactive state of consciousness, ONLY after being liberated from the mahat-tattva, which is really and factually the Impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti, or their own individual consciousness.

That means, although we are properly situated within the Lord’s internal energy in our ‘svarupa’ body eternally beyond mundane time and space, we always have the propensity to misuse our independence and try to act as enjoyers or lords that immediately disqualifies us from being aware of our ‘svarupa’ body and instead try to lord it over Krishna’s material energy that is under the jurisdiction of the sleeping and dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

In this way the jiva or marginal living entity, as their secondary dreaming sub-conscious self, falsely identifies with the Lord’s material energy, and in fact it predominates over them and defeats them repeatedly in their attempts, again and again to be the controller. The impermanent perishable nature of the mahat-tattva frustrates the nitya-baddha consciousness and eventually AGAIN they seek the shelter of Impersonalism or tatastha falsely thinking this is their original position..

————————————————————————————-
Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition also known as tatastha), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

In this context, the Brahma-sayujya and tatastha s’akti is a description of the marginal living entities in their dormant condition of consciousness

Srila Prabhupada – “The spiritual potency of the Lord is manifested in three phases — the internal or spiritual potency, the marginal potency, which consists of the living entities, and the external potency, known as māyā-śakti. We must understand that in each of these three phases the original spiritual potencies of pleasure, eternity and knowledge remain intact. When the potencies of spiritual pleasure and knowledge are both bestowed upon the conditioned souls, the conditioned souls can escape the clutches of the external potency, māyā, which acts as a cover obscuring one’s spiritual identity. When freed, the living entity awakens to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and engages in devotional service with love and affection”. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 6.160

Srila Prabhupada - “The original characteristics of a substance are called svarūpa, and the subsequent corollaries are called taṭastha-lakṣaṇa, or marginal characteristics. The glories of the Lord’s marginal characteristics prove Him to be the original Supreme Personality of Godhead, the son of Mahārāja Nanda. As soon as one understands this, one accepts Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Śrī krishna.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 18.126

The forgetful jiva (marginal living entity manifesting as their secondary inferior consciousness), is now unaware of their perpetual ‘svarupa’ body in Goloka, becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with shelter within His Body, The marginal position of the jīva soul or living entity manifesting as their secondary nitya-baddha conscious projection, is completely forgetful of their perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what is his relationship with Krishna, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projection relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu”.

The nitya-baddha consciousness is the jiva-tattva and can also be the jiva-tatastha and about 170 other jiva definations however, they are all the extended secondary consciousness of their nitya-siddha body when one chooses to use their free will and ignore Krishna.

Comment posted by Svarupa on September 27th, 2007
21 Unregistered

Akruranath Prabhu I think in the Madhva Sampradaya there is some disagreement on the position of Laksmi with the gaudiya position, to them Laksmi is different from Visnu but not a jiva. She is a third type of living entity, to them she controls all of nature. In the Sri Sampradaya there are different schools of thought on the position of Laksmi. The Tenkalais say that Laksmi is a jiva, and the Vadakalais consider Laksmi to be both infinite and paramatma along with Narayana. As for Lord Siva, there are 2 different categories of Siva. One is Sadasiva who is Visnu Tattva and the other is the demigod Siva who is a jiva. Whenever the sastra speaks of Siva as being the same as Visnu or as the supreme lord it is speaking of Sadasiva, and whenever it speaks of Siva as different from Visnu and not the supreme lord it is speaking of the demigod Siva. Jiva goswami explains this in his Paramatma Sandarbha Anuccheda 17

Text 45

tad etad uktanusarena sada-civecvara-tri-devi-rupa-vyuho ‘pi nirastah. tasmad eva ca sri-bhagavat-purusayor eva caivagame sadaSivadi-samjYe tan-mahima-khyapanaya dhrte iti gamyate. sarva-sastra-ciromanau sri-bhagavate tu tri-devyam eva tat-taratamya-jijYasa. purusa-bhagavatos tu tat- prasagga eva nasti.

tat - this; etat - that; ukta - said; anusarena - following; sada- civecvara - of Lord SadaSiva; tri-devi-rupa-vyuhah - the forms of the three goddesses; api - also; nirastah - rejected; tasmat - therefgore; eva - indeed; ca - also; sri-bhagavat-purusayoh - of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara; eva - indeed; caivagame - in the Siava ssriptures; sadaSiva - with Lord SadaSiva; adi - beginning; samjYe - names; tan-mahima- khyapanaya - for dessribing His glories; dhrte - held; iti - thus; gamyate - is attained; sarva-sastra-ciromanau - in the crest jewel of all ssriptures; sri-bhagavate - in Srimad-Bhagavatam; tu - but; tri-devyam - in the three goddesses; eva - indeed; tat-taratamya - of the gradations of higher and lower; jijYasa - the desire to understand; purusa-bhagavatoh - of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tu - but; tat-prasagga - in association with Him; eva - indeed; na - not; asti - is.

In may also be noted in the context of these words that Lord CadaSiva is not the same as the demigod Siva of the three guna- avataras. In the Siva ssriptures it is clearly said that Lord SadaSiva is an expansion of the purusa-avatara and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Srimad-Bhagavatam (in Canto Ten. Chapter Eighty-nine), the crest jewel of all ssriptures, the question “Who is the most exalted of the three guna- avataras?” is raised. In the answer given there it is clear that the demigod Siva is not an expansion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the purusa-avatara.

Text 46

brahmadayo yat krta-setu-pala
yat karanam vicvam idam ca maya ajna-kari yasya picaca-carya
aho vibhumnac caritam vidambanam

brahmadayah - demigods like Brahma; yat - whose; krta - activities; setu - religious rites; palah - observers; yat - one who is; karanam - the origin of; vicvam - the universe; idam - this; ca - also; maya - material energy; ajYa-kari - order carrier; yasya - whose; picaca - devilish; carya - activity; ahah - O my Lord; vibhumnah - of the great; caritam - character; vidambanam - simply imitation.

The demigod Lord Siva is dessribed in the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.14.29):

“Demigods like Brahma also follow the religious rites observed by him (Siva). He (Siva) is the controller of the material energy, which causes the creation of the material world. he is great, and therefore his devilish activities are simply imitation.”*

Text 47

ity asya trtiye gunavataratvena paramecvarabheda-drstya tathatvam uktam iti jneyam.

iti - thus; asya - of this; trtiye - in the Third Canto; gunavataratvena - as a guna-avatar; paramecvarabheda-drstya - by the explanation that he is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead; tathatvam - the state of being like that; uktam - said; iti - thus; jneyam - to be known.

From these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam it should be understood that the demigod Siva is one of the guna-avataras. He is different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Text 48

nanu

na te giritrakhila-loka-pala-
virinca-vaikuntha-surendra-gamyam
jyotih param yatra rajas tamac ca
sattvam na yad brahma nirasta-bhedam

ity asya tasya paratvam sruyate evastame.

nanu - is it not said?; na - not; te - of your Lordship; giritra - O king of the mountains; akhila-loka-pala - all the directors of departments of material activities; viriYca - Lord Brahma; vaikuntha - Lord Visnu; surendra - the king of heaven; gamyam - they cann understand; jyotih - effulgence; param - transcendental; yatra - wherein; rajah - the mode of passion; tamac ca - and the mode of ignorance; sattvam - the mode of goodness; na - not; yad brahma - which is impersonal Brahma; nirasta-bhedam - without distinction between demigods and human beings; iti - thus; asya - of Him; tasya - of Him; paratvam - supremacy; sruyate - is heard; eva - indeed; astame - in the Eighth Canto.

Here someone may protest: Is it not so that the following words are found in the Eighth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.31):

“O Lord Girica, since the impersonal Brahman effulgence is transcendental to the material modes of goodness, passion, and ignorance, the various directors of the material world certainly cannot appreciate it or even know where it is. It is not understandable even to Lord Brahma, Lord Visnu, or the King of heaven, Mahendra.”*

These words of Srimad-Bhagavatam’s Eighth Canto clearly show that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Text 49

maivam. mahimna stuyamana hi deva viryena vardhate iti vaidika-nyayena tad-ayukteh. sa hi stavah kalakuta-nacartham eva.

ma - not; evam - like that; mahimna - glory; stuyamana - praising; hi - indeed; deva - demigods; viryena - with power; vardhate - increase; iti - thus; vaidika - of the Vedas; nyayena - by the example; tad- ayukteh - not logical for that; sa - that; hi - indeed; stavah - prayer; kalakuta-nacartham - to destroy the kalakuta poison; eva - indeed.

To this protest I reply: It is not so. The idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is disproved by the following words of the Vedas:

“By glorifying Lord Visnu, the demigods become powerful.”

The Srimad-Bhagavatam verse you quoted was an appeal to Lord Siva begging him to destroy the ocean of Kalakuta poison.

Text 50

tatraiva prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti.

tatra - there; eva - indeed; prite harau bhagavati priye ‘ham sa-caracarah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.40.

In that same chapter of Srimad-Bhagavatam (8.7.40) Lord Siva himself affirms the supremacy of Lord Visnu. Siva says:

“My dear gentle wife Bhavani, when one performs benevolent activities for others, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is very pleased. And when the Lord is pleased, I am also pleased, along with all other living creatures.”*

Text 51

tatha navame

vayam na tata prabhavama bhumni.
yasmin pare ‘nye ‘py aja-jiva-kosah
bhavanti kale na bhavanti hidrcah
sahasraco yatra vayam bhramamah. iti.

tatha - so; navame - in the Ninth Canto; vayam - we; na - not; tata - O my dear son; prabhavama - sufficiently able; bhumni - unto the great Supreme Personality of Godhead; yasmin - in whom; pare - in the Transcendence; anye - others; api - even; aja - Lord Brahma; jiva - the living entities; kosah - the universes; bhavanti - can become; kale - in due course of time; na - not; bhavanti - can become; hi - indeed; idrcah - like this; sahasracah - many thousands and millions; yatra - wherein; vayam - all of us; bhramamah - are rotating; iti - thus.

That Lord Siva is not the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by these words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.56) where Lord Siva himself explains:

“My dear son, I, Lord Brahma, and the other demigods, who rotate within this universe under the misconception of our greatness, cannot exhibit any power to compete with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for innumerable universes and their inhabitants come into existence and are annihilated by the simple direction of the Lord.”*

Text 52

ete vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti ca tad-vakya-virodhat.

ete - vayam yasya vace mahatmanah sthitah cakuntha iva sutra-yantritah iti - Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.17.23; ca - also; tad- vakya-virodhat - because of refuting those words.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (5.17.23) Lord Siva himself affirms:

“Therefore, I worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is greater than any of us and under whose control are situated all the demigods, material elements, and senses, and even Lord Brahma and I myself, like birds bound by a rope.”*

These two verses of Srimad-Bhagavatam clearly refute the idea that Lord Siva is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

Text 53

athava yat Sivasya jyotis tatra sthitam paramatmakhyam caitanyam tat-samyag-jnane tasyapy aksamata yuktaiva.

athava - or; yat - which; Sivasya - of Lord Siva; jyotih - effulgence; tatra - there; sthitam - situated; paramatmakhyam - called the Supersoul; caitanyam - coscious; tat- samyag-jnane - in right knowledge; tasya - of Him; api - also; aksamata - inability; yukta - proper; eva - indeed.

Or, considering this from another point of view, it may be said that Lord Siva’s effulgence, which is dessribed in the verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 8.7.31, quoted here in text 48) previously quoted by you, is the home of all-knowing Lord Visnu, who is known as the Paramatma, or Supersoul. Understood in this way, it is quite proper that Lord Siva’s effulgence is beyond the living entities’ understanding. Text 54

yad uktam dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti.

yat - what; uktam - said; dyu-pataya eva te na yayur antam anantataya tvam api yad antaranda-nicaya nanu savaranah iti - Srimad- Bhagavatam 10.87.41.

That Lord Visnu is the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also confirmed by the following words of Srimad-Bhagavatam (10.87.41), where the Personified Vedas pray to Lord Visnu:

“Our dear Lord, although Lord Brahma, the predominating deity of the highest planet, Brahmaloka, and King Indra, the predominating demigod of the heavenly planet, as well as the predominating deities of the sun planet, the moon planet, etc. are all very confidential directors of this material world, they have very little knowledge about You. And what to speak of ordinary human beings and mental speculators? It is not possible for anyone to enumerate the unlimited transcendental qualities of Your Lordship. No one, including the mental speculators and the demigods in the higher planetary systems is actually able to estimate the length and breadth of Your form and characteristics.”*

Text 55

brahma-samhita-mate tu bhagavad-agga-vicesa
eva sadasivah. na tv anyah. yatha tatraiva
sarvadi-karana-govinda-kathane

brahma-samhita-mate - in the opinion of Brahma-samhita; tu - indeed; bhagavad-agga-vicesa - as a limb of Lord Krsna’s body; eva - indeed; sadaSivah - Lord SadaSiva; na - not; tv - but; anyah - another; yatha - as; tatra - there; eva - indeed; sarvadi-karana - the original cause of all causes; govinda - of Lord Krsna; kathane - in the dessription.

In the words of Brahma-samhita it is said that Lord SadaSiva is a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. However, the other Siva, the demigod Siva, is not a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. This is dessribed in the following words of Brahma- samhita (5.8 and 5.10) where Lord Krsna’s status as the original cause of all causes is dessribed in these words:

Text 56

niyatih sa rama devi
tat-priya tad-vacamvada

niyatih - regulatrix; sa - she; rama - goddess Rama; devi - goddess; tat-priya - dear to him; tad-vacamvada - under cotnrol.

“Ramadevi, the spiritual (cit) potency, beloved consort of the Supreme Lord, is the regulatrix of all entities.”**

Text 57

tal-liggam bhagavan Sambhur
jyoti-rupah sanatanah ya yonih sa para saktih ity adi.

tal-liggam - the emblem of Him; bhagavan - Lord; Sambhuh - Sambhu; jyoti-rupah - the form of light; sanatanah - eternal; ya - which; yonih - place of birth; sa - she; para - divine; saktih - potency; iti - thus; adi - beginning.

“The divine plenary portion of Krsna creates the mundane world. at creation there appears a divine halo of the nature of His own subjective portion (svamca). This halo is divine Sambhu, the masculine symbol or manifested emblem of the Supreme Lord. This halo is the dim twilight reflection of the supreme eternal effulgence . This masculine symbol is the subjective portion of divinity who functions as progenitor of the mundane world, subject to the supreme regulatrix (niyati). The conceiving potency in regard to mundane creation makes her appearance out of the supreme regulatrix. She is Maya, the limited non-absolute (apara) potency, the symbol of mundane feminine productivity.”*

Text 58

tasminn avirabhul ligge
maha-visnuh ity ady-antam.

tasmin - in that; avirabhut - maniefsted; ligge - emblem; maha- visnuh - - Lord Maha-Visnu; iti - thus; adi - beginning; antam - end.

“the Lord of the world Maha-Visnu is manifest in him (Siva) by His subjective portion in the form of His glance.”**

Text 59

tad etad abhipretya sadasivatvadi-prasiddhim apy aksipyaha

tat - this; etat - that; abhipretya - underdtanding; sadasivatva - the status of Lord sadaSival adi - beginning; prasiddhim - proof; api - also; aksipya - throwing away; aha - said.

Lord SadaSiva is thus a direct expansion of Lord Visnu. Therefore the words of the following verse (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.18.21) refer not to Him, but to the demigod Siva:

Text 60

athapi yat-pada-nakhavasrstam
jagad-viriYcopahrtarhanambhah secam punaty anyatamo mukundat
ko nama loke bhagavat-padarthah

atha - therefore; api - certainly; yat - whose; pada-nakha - nails of the feet; avasrstam - emanating; jagat - the whole universe; viriYca - Brahmaji; upahrta - collected; arhana - worship; ambhah - water; sa - along with; icam - Lord Siva; punati - purifies; anyatamah - who else; mukundat - besides the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna; kah - who?; nama - name; loke - within the world; bhagavat - Supreme Lord; pada - position; arthah - worth.

“Who can be worthy of the name of the Supreme Lord but the Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna? Brahmaji collected the water emanating from the nails of His feet in order to award it to Lord Siva as a worshipful welcome. This very water (the Ganges) is purifying the whole universe, including Lord Siva.”*

Text 61

spastam. sri-sutah.

spastam - clear; sri-sutah - Sri Suta Gosvami.

The meaning of this verse is clear. The verse quoted in the beginning of this anuccheda was spoken by Srila Suta Gosvami.

As for Gadadhara Pandita, he is an incarnation of Sri Radha. Sri Radha is visnu tattva. But in her role as Gadadhara Pandita he is not representing visnu tattva, he is representing sakti tattva.

Comment posted by shiva on September 27th, 2007
22 Akruranatha

Thank you Shiva for once again clearing up my illusion. There was something confusing about the way Bhakta Rod and Svarupa keep these parenthetical comments within the quotation marks. It makes it look like that is part of the quotation, so I thought Srila Prabhupada actually said it. I should have known better.

Bhakta Rod/Svarup (are you really the same devotee or two different devotees?): Do you have any authoritative basis for using the word “tatastha” to refer to a temporary state of consciousness? It seems to be causing mischief. Where does that peculiar usage come from?

I do not really know Sanskrt, other than what I pick up from memorizing verses and word-for-word meanings and from reading Srila Prabhupada’s books.

From what I know, though, it probably *could* make sense in Sanskrt for anyone standing on the bank of a river, or a beach, or on the side of a hill, or perhaps even in a doorway or on the boundary line in a football field, to be referred to as “tatastha”.

Just as hrt-stha means “situated in the heart”, tata-stha means “situated on the tata”. A “tata” is a river bank, and by extension it could mean any threshold or margin or dividing line. Monier-Williams says “tata” means “a slope, declivity, or shore”, and “tata-stha” means “standing on a declivity or bank”.

For example, in the Gopinatha mantra, He is described as “vamsivata-tata-stithah” (standing on the shore in Vamsivata). So, such meanings are possible.

But when Srila Prabhupada uses the word he is referring to marginal energy (i.e., the jivas), not a particular kind of consciousness. At least, that is the only usage I am aware of.

(You had me thinking Srila Prabhupada said something different in a letter to Australian devotees. I know you do not want to mislead or confuse anyone about what Srila Prabhupada said, so please be careful on this point that your own words are not passed off as Srila Prabhupada’s. Amalagaura already raised this point with you earlier.)

The Mayavadis associate jivas with a temporary phase of ignorant consciousness. They say, when the pot is broken the sky in the pot becomes one with the whole sky. They argue that the jiva-bhuta existence of struggling in this world is only a result of us not realizing that we are the unlimited supreme absolute truth. However, that is, as Srila Prabhupada says, “nonsense”.

The Vaisnavas do not say such things. A jiva is always a jiva. I know we all agree.

“Tatastha sakti” is a way of describing what the jiva is. It is not describing a temporary state of consciousness the jiva may have.

Shiva has made that clear already. Do you have any reason for persisting with your use of the word “tatastha” in a different way? Is there any authority for that usage?

It seems you have somehow been confused into identifying the phrase “tatastha shakti” with “sayujya mukti”, “impersonal brahman realization” and so on, but as far as I can tell our acaryas have not used the phrase in that sense.

Please speak directly to this point: Where did you get that idea from and why do you persist is using it that way?

We are all friendly devotees here, and I think addressing this point directly should support the rest of your thesis (i.e., that the jivas do not “originate” in impersonal realization).

So why should you cling to this peculiar phraseology of “tatastha consciousness”? I am not trying to get on your case but just to clear up what appears to be a persistent confusion, for your benefit.

Once again, jivas, or minute spiritual sparks, being small, atomic, or infinitesimal, are susceptible to be in maya, or conditioned consciousness, (unlike the Parabrahman or Supreme Brahman, who is never covered by His maya.) Therefore they are called “tatastha” or marginal.

The natural or constitutional position of the jiva is to be situated in Krishna consciousness. The jiva is really brahman, but to *act* like brahman she has to engage in Krishna’s devotional service. Otherwise, she is in ignorant, covered, or conditioned consciousness.

To merely identify with brahman but not to *act* like brahman is also maya. It is “avisuddha buddhaya” or not pure intelligence. Therefore the so-called liberation of “sayujya mukti” is still defective. It is a kind of liberation never accepted by pure devotees.

I know we all agree with the above, basic formulation of our basic philosophy.

However, I am not familiar with the phrase “tatastha consciousness”. It seems to be a made up conception that is causing you trouble. Where has this conception come from? Why do you identify “tatastha shakti” with “sayujya mukti”? I cannot imagine why you would want to. Why not just give it up?

What are its hidden charms or attractions that make you defend this formula? I predict you will feel much happier when you let it go. :-)

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 27th, 2007
23 Gauragopala dasa

Interesting understanding of Srila Prabhupadas teachings, however this subject can only be correctly realized by accepting the proper concept of time within the material creation, and the absents of time as we know it in Goloka. This is the secret of accepting the correct eternal identity of all marginal living entities, and who they really are in their full brilliance as eternal loving servants of Krishna, I remember discussing this in 1972 as we travelled around Australia -

We are always marginal regardless of being in Goloka or ‘dreaming” we are in the mahat-tattva or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti.

Only the inferior nitya-baddha ‘dreaming’ consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha or jiva s’akti etc and not the marginal living entities superior nitya-siddha body because ones original ’svarupa’ bodily form never leaves its personal constitutional position as eternal servant of Krishna in Goloka. This is not an easy subject to comprehend

Srila Prbhupada - “The conditioned soul is the marginal potency overpowered by the external potency. However, when the marginal potency comes under the jurisdiction of the spiritual potency, it becomes eligible for love of Godhead.” Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

Jai Srila Prabhupada, Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on September 29th, 2007
24 Unregistered

Our constitutional body is eternal

Only the nitya-baddha ‘dreaming’ secondary consciousness or lower self manifests as jiva-tatastha while our ‘svarupa’ or nitya-siddha body remains undisturbed always in Goloka.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly… The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’ or dream we have fallen, but actually we are not fallen – it is simply a condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada -”As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to Krishna, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position” Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This restricted conscious awareness or dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness dreaming condition.

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in Krishna’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) like the dreams one has at night.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity”April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Only the nitya-baddha ‘dreaming’ consciousness manifests as jiva-tatastha and not ones nitya-siddha body because ones original ’svarupa’ form never leaves Goloka.

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will. Such Vishnava groups do not understand the two facades of each and every marginal living entity.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha or jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna, in this way their Impersonal understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness entered the mahat-tattva and then, after much struggle in the maha-tattva (material creation) , entered the temporary borderline jiva-tatastha condition of consciousness, they were with Krishna, not as their insubstantial nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha consciousness, but as their endless beautiful perpetual nitya-siddha- Svarupa body that can never ever fall down from Goloka.

Nitya-siddha can never fall down from Goloka, therefore non of us fall down however we do sometimes dream or think we fall down, such dreaming and thinking creates the living entities nitya-baddha consciousness that is also called the jiva-tatastha, jiva-bhutah, jiva-s’akti and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on the condition of consciousness the nitya-baddha sub-consciousness ‘dreams’ to be in outside of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

The nitya-baddha dreaming lower consciousness state of the living entities caracture can also appear to resemble an Impersonal inactive spark of consciousness as part of a collective in the Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya (individual dormant consciousness as their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness, they had first chose to extend from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha serving Krishna, as an unconscious dream called the nitya-baddha sub-conscious desires, thoughts and non-Krishna conscious dreams that first enter the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, going on for millions upon millions of births until eventually reaching that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness, or by the mercy of a pure devotee of Krishna begins to re-establish the connection to their genuine identity.

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Srila Prabhupada -”Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this.April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on September 29th, 2007
25 Akruranatha

Shiva Prabhu:

Thank you for your clear explanations from Jiva Goswami’s sandharbas and other advanced scriptures.

I can see it makes sense that fundamentally there are only jiva and Vishnu tattvas: The monists say there is only brahman, but we say there is a difference between brahman in its minute, atomic form as jiva and in its complete, plenary form as Vishnu tattva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

So Lord Caitanya’s slogan “acintya bhedabheda tattva” is not monist, but is not exactly dualist either because the jiva is also nondifferent from the Absolute Truth.

But then the question arises, what are all these additional “tattvas” we often hear about? Where did they come from? If our slogan is just that there is this “acintya bhedabheda tattva”, then why do we also say there are five tattvas (panca tattva)?

The Panca Tattva is not just an array of specific personalities like the Catur-Vyuha, but it represents five fundamental aspects of ontological reality.

And in SriGopal’s quote from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada, he separates “divine manifestation” and “divine power” into two separate categories, giving us six “divine entities” or divine “categories” or “constituents of Lord Caitanya”.

And then in Nectar of Devotion Srila Prabhupada explains to us that Sri Rupa Goswami Prabhupada is describing the unique position of Lord Shiva as displaying more qualities than a jiva but not as much as Vishnu. Sometimes we use the expression “Shiva tattva” to refer to this unique position which is more than a jiva but less than Vishnu.

And in Sri Brahma Samhita this dim twilight reflection of the supreme effulgence (Shiva), who is a plenary expansion of Vishnu but as progenitor of the mundane creation is subject to Ramaadevi’s control, and who unites with her expansion Maya Devi to create the faculty of perverted cognition and all the bodies of all the mundane beings, is described later in the Brahma Samhita as being neither the same as nor different from Govinda, in the way that yogurt is neither the same as nor different from milk.

And what of Shiva’s consort, Maya herself? Even though she is “apara potency”, she is nevertheless divine potency. Srila Prabhupada often describes her as a “pure devotee”. Is she, like Radha and Lakshmi, a “predominated” aspect of Vishnu tattva? [It would seem so, only more particularly in his Shiva form.]

Or is she just an extremely powerful goddess who is only a jiva playing that role? [But could a jiva play the role of deluder of all conditioned jivas? It seems like a terribly powerful and important role, but since a jiva is really a spark of unlimited Vishnu I suppose it can do anything.]

She is “predominated” in a special way, because she has the thankless task of deluding the impure and preventing them from escaping the clutches of mundane existence. Out of shyness she never appears in front of Vishnu (she is like darkness, who always retreats before light), but sometimes she does assert herself with her great husband Mahesvara, doesn’t she?

Whew! It starts to sound like there are lots of different “tattvas” out there, and not just the simple picture of brahman in its complete form as the Supreme Personality of Godhead and in its jiva form as the minute sparks of His energy.

But I *think* I understand from what you are saying that Shiva, at least Sada Shiva (i.e., Lord Advaita) is really Vishnu tattva but he assumes a special, more limited role when he becomes the husband of the mundane conceiving potency Maya (who makes her appearance out of the cit potency).

[There is a demigod Shiva and even a demigod Vishnu, too, or at least I have read that there is a demigod *named* Vishnu. So there can be jivas who fulful those roles as guna avatars and live for some time in the bodies of these great demigods who personify the material gunas? (Or is the demigod Vishnu different from the guna avatar for sattva guna?)]

Is Shiva always the demigod, jiva form of Shiva when he appears to be predominated by Maya, for example sexually agitated by Parvati? And what of the lila when he is bewildered by the beautiful form of Lord Vishnu as Mohini Murti? Is that the jiva Shiva or the Vishnu Shiva who gets bewidered?]

And then Maya, being a special expansion of Lakshmi, must also technically in that sense be Vishnu tattva too? Correct?

Can you quote additional authoritative statements about these topics?

Comment posted by Akruranatha on September 30th, 2007
26 Unregistered

Dear Akrurantha Das Prabhu:

Sri Radha is Divine Power, inner pleasure potency (ahladini sakti) of Sri Krishna and it is very clear if you read the Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada’s titled “Associates of Lord Chaitanya.”

SRIMATI RADHIKA
“But Nityananda does not directly instruct in the confidential service of Krsna. Srimati Radhika is the guru of the inner circle of the servants of Krsna. Srimati, however, accepts the offer of service of only those souls who are specially favored by Nityananda and are deemed by Him to be fit for Her service. There is, therefore a most intimate relationship between the function of Nityananda and that of Srimati which is at once supplementary and inclusive of the former.”

“The fifth divine category is divine power. Divine power is the Predominated Moiety of the divinity who is Predominating Whole. Sri Radhika is the Predominated Counter-Whole of Sri Krsna. Sri Radhika has Her duplicates and constituents who are also of the nature of plenary powers of the divinity. Sri Radhika is the female consort in the Supreme Divine Pair. She is the source of all the distinctive divine powers that serve as the corresponding counter-wholes of the infinite manifestations and avataras of the divinity. She also directly serves Sri Krsna in an infinity of ways in Her countless distinctive plenary and secondary forms.” (Associates of Lord Chaitanya, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada)

Spiritual topics cannot be realized simply arguing back and forth and presenting volumes of quotes. Sri Radha is Divine Power and Sri Krishna is Divinity, Sri Radha’s function is different from Sri Balarama’s. In our Gaudiya Vaishnava line if we have to understand spiritual topics then we have to apply Sriman Mahaprabhu’s “acintya abhedabheda tattva” formula otherwise it will baffle anybody. In our Gaudiya vaishnava line we undertake similar fasting like we do on Ekadashi (no grain type) for Vishnu Tattva Avataras including the Supreme Lord however we do not conduct fasting like the ones we do for the Avataras for Srimati Radharani or any of the Supreme Lord’s consorts.

tarko ’pratisthah srutayo vibhinna
nasav rsir yasya matam na bhinnam
dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam
mahajano yena gataù sa panthaù

“Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu continued, “‘Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate.” This is a verse spoken by Yudhishtra Maharaja in the Mahabharata, Vana-parva (313.117)” (CCM: 17.186)

Here is an excerpt from the writing of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada titled Thakura Bhaktivinoda.

“There have, however, already arisen serious misunderstandings regarding the proper interpretation of the life and teachings of Srila Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the acarya are disposed to unduly favor the method of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes.”

Service of the Pure Devotee is Essential For Understanding

“The personal service of the pure devotee is essential for understanding the spiritual meaning of the words of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. The editor of this journal, originally started by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, has been trying to draw the attention of all followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda to this all-important point of his teachings. It is not necessary to try to place ourselves on a footing of equality with Thakura Bhaktivinoda. We are not likely to benefit by a mechanical imitation of any practices of Thakura Bhaktivinoda on the opportunist principle that they may be convenient for us to adopt. The guru is not an erring mortal whose activities can be understood by the fallible reason of unreclaimed humanity. There is an eternally impassable line of demarcation between the savior and the saved. Those who are really saved can alone know this. Thakura Bhaktivinoda belongs to the category of the spiritual world teachers who eternally occupy the superior position.”

“The present editor has all along felt it his paramount duty to try to clear up the meaning of the life and teachings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda by the method of submissive listening to the transcendental sound from the lips of the pure devotee. The guru, who realizes the transcendent meaning of all sounds, is in a position to serve the absolute by the direction of the absolute conveyed through every sound. The transcendental sound is Godhead the mundane sound is non-Godhead. All sound has got these opposite aptitudes. All sound reveals its divine face to the devotee and only presents its deluding aspect to the empiric pedant. The devotee talks apparently the same language as the deluded pedant who had got by heart the vocabulary of the scriptures. But notwithstanding apparent identity of performance the one has no access to the reality while the other is absolutely free from all delusion.”

Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the above powers of the pure devotee of Godhead. His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened to from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one’s own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

What are the scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the divine message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the scriptures. Any meaning of the scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the divine message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Those who think that the sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the divine message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the truth. The transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the absolute.

The pure devotee is the speaker of the transcendental language. The transcendental sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of the divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees.” (Thakura Bhaktivinoda by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada.)

Also in the Svetasvatara Upanisad it says:

yasya deve para bhaktir
yatha deve tatha gurau
tasyaite kathita hy arthah
prakasante mahatmanah

“Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” [SU 6.23]

Commenting upon the above verse “This is what Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.23) says: “Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” Because there is no difference between guru-bhakti and Krsna-bhakti, thus one who develops the same type of bhakti for the Guru as he develops for Krsna, is a very fortunate soul, and unto him all transcendental knowledge will be revealed, or manifest. It will never manifest otherwise.” (Sri Guru Vandana – Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Swami )

(my comments) “…unto him all transcendental knowledge will be revealed or manifest. It will never manifest otherwise.” What kind of Bhakti and who’s Bhakti they are talking about here? In the above verse, Srila Gurudeva is speaking about Sri Guru Bhakti that is in line with Sri Chaithanya Mahaprabhu because we belong to Sri Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya. So naturally, the devotee will be revealed gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya’s Vedic imports, which includes paramatma tattva, which is the only asset of Sri Sampradaya. Suppose one is in Sri Sampradaya or other sampradaya and if that devotee has implicit faith in the spiritual master of his sampradaya as he has for the Supreme Lord then imports of Vedic knowledge Sri Guru Paramatma reveals to him. We have to accept that this statement is true. However, the question is, will the Supreme Lord within the heart reveal it to that particular devotee something outside of that devotee’s adhikara? I do not think so.

Another thing, in Sriman Mahaprabhu’s sampradaya everything is included. Maya tattva, jiva tattva, Sri Brahman Tattva, Sri Paramatma Tattva, Sri Bhagavan Tattva and Sri Madhurya Prema Rasa Tattva, which is an absolute requirement to understand Sri Vrindavan Chandra and is found only in Sriman Mahaprabhu’s movement. So according to the understanding in relation to tattvas, Sri Paramatma tattva of Sri Sampradaya is like 50 percent and whereas Sriman Mahaprabhu’s Prema Rasa Tattva is like complete 100 percent. This means it includes everything; that is 25, 50, 75 and then 100 percent. So according to the adhikar of Sri Sampradaya only 50 percent is their share and if they want more then they have to take shelter of Sri Guru in Sriman Mahaprabhu’s sampradaya.” (end SriGopal das’ comments)

“yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthaane
ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane

“If you want to understand Srimad-Bhagavatam,” he said, “you must approach a self-realized Vaisnava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”

PURPORT

“Herein Svarupa Damodara Gosvami instructs the poet from Bengal to hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a pure Vaisnava and learn from him… Therefore, Svarupa Damodara Gosvami herein advises that one should not hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from professional reciters. Instead, one must hear and learn the Bhagavatam from a self-realized Vaisnaava. Sometimes it is seen that when a Mayavadi sannyasi reads the Bhagavatam, flocks of men go to hear jugglery of words that cannot awaken their dormant love for Kåñëa….”

“One should hear Srimad-Bhagavatam from a person who has no connection with material activities, or, in other words, from a paramahamsa Vaisnava, one who has achieved the highest stage of sannyasa. This, of course, is not possible unless one takes shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Srimad-Bhagavatam is understandable only for one who can follow in the footsteps of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.” (CCAntya 5.131)

caitanyera bhakta-ganera nitya kara ‘sanga’
tabeta janiba siddhanta-samudra-taranga

“Svarupa Damodara continued, “Associate regularly with the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for then only will you understand the waves of the ocean of devotional service.”

PURPORT
“It is clearly to be understood in this connection that the followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s way of devotional service are eternal associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and perfect knowers of the Absolute Truth. If one immediately follows the principles of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by associating with His devotees, lusty desires for material enjoyment will vanish from one’s heart. Then one will be able to understand the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam and the purpose of listening to it. Otherwise such understanding is impossible.” (CCAntya 5.132)

tabeta panditya tomara ha-ibe saphala
krsnera svarupa-lila varniba nirmala

“Only if you follow the principles of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His devotees will your learning be successful. Then you will be able to write about the transcendental pastimes of Krsna without material contamination.” (CCAntya 5.133)

“mac-citta mad-gata-prana bodha yantah parasparam
kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca”

“The thoughts of My pure devotees dwell in Me, their lives are fully devoted to My service, and they derive great satisfaction and bliss from always enlightening one another and conversing about Me.” (BG 10.9)

“tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam
dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te”

“To those who are constantly devoted to serving Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me.” (BG 10.10)

“tesam evanukampartham aham ajnana-jam tamah
nasayamy atma-bhava-stho jnana-dipena bhasvata”

“To show them special mercy, I, dwelling in their hearts, destroy with the shining lamp of knowledge the darkness born of ignorance.” (BG 10.11).

jnananjana-salakaya
caksur unmilitam yena
tasmai sri-gurave namah

“I offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, who with the torchlight of knowledge has opened my eyes, which were blinded by the darkness of ignorance.” (Gautamiya Tantra)

cakhu-dana dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei,
divya jnan hrde prokasito
prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasa jate,
vede gay jahara carito

yasya deve para bhaktir
yatha deve tatha gurau
tasyaite kathita hy arthaù
prakasante mahatmanaù

“Only unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master are all the imports of Vedic knowledge automatically revealed.” [SU 6.23]

It is very nice to read articles written by devotees in presenting their arguments or clarifying a position which is very encouraging in Krishna Consciousness however, there is a limit on how much one can present the philosophy. First, we do not know who are the audience or what kind of personalities reading this articles and what is their level of understanding? Still this internet cannot replace hearing from a pure devotee personally and receiving the blessing to realize the Absolute Truth. I have mentioned passages from the articles and quotes from sastra with only one intention that there is another way to realize the Absolute Truth which is lot easier that is to pray for a nice vaishnava association, a self-realized pure devotee(s) through whom Paramatma can guide us and teach us all that we are endeavoring to know. In this regard, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada mentions that, “…Those who suppose they understand the meaning of his message without securing the guiding grace of the acarya are disposed to unduly favor the method of empiric study of his writings. There are persons who have got by heart almost everything that he wrote without being able to catch the least particle of his meaning. Such study cannot benefit those who are not prepared to act up to the instructions lucidly conveyed by his words. There is no honest chance of missing the warnings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda. Those, therefore, who are misled by the perusal of his writings are led astray by their own obstinate perversity in sticking to the empiric course which they prefer to cherish against his explicit warnings. Let these unfortunate persons look more carefully into their own hearts for the cause of their misfortunes.”

“yaha, bhagavata pada vaisnavera sthaane
ekanta asraya kara caitanya-carane

“If you want to understand Srimad Bhagavatam,” he said, “you must approach a self-realized Vaiñëava and hear from him. You can do this when you have completely taken shelter of the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.”

caitanyera bhakta-ganera nitya kara ‘sanga’
tabeta janiba siddhanta-samudra-taranga

“Svarupa Damodara continued, “Associate regularly with the devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for then only will you understand the waves of the ocean of devotional service.”

tabeta panditya tomara ha-ibe saphala
krsnera svarupa-lila varniba nirmala

“Only if you follow the principles of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His devotees will your learning be successful. Then you will be able to write about the transcendental pastimes of Krsna without material contamination.” (CCAntya 5.133)

i rest my case, Jai Srila Prabhupada!

Comment posted by SriGopaldas on September 30th, 2007
27 Unregistered

IN SIMPLE ENGLISH, THIS IS WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON WITHIN KRISHNA’S CREATION

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position” Introduction to the Bhagavad- Gita as it is

The marginal living entities in their inferior nitya-baddha dreaming alternative secondary-self bodiless consciousness enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the perishable and impermanent mahat-tattva temporary material universe. It is there such dreams are provided with ‘real but temporary’ bodily vessels. In this way the nitya-baddha dreams are an illusion however, when Maha-Vishnu provides such dreams and desires with ethereal and biological bodies, such delusional dreams became part of the temporary mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

While the marginal living entity is dreaming as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness, that also can be called the jiva-tattva or jiva s’akti etc, one forgets the superior Krishna Conscious personality of their marginal character (nitya-siddha-svarupa body) however, on returning to their full Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, or the superior personality of their marginal character, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is gradually dissipated like light dissipates darkness so that the marginal living entities superior genuine Krishna Conscious self is re-established

We therefore enter the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu as our lower conscious awareness forgetting our actual constitutional position as eternally nitya-siddha and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

The Vedic texts describe that the Supreme Creator (In His Maha-Vishnu Form) produces the material world by His dreaming in yoga-nidra , His mystic slumber. Thus, the material creation is the Supreme Being’s dream, or a display of His thought energy.

Furthermore, the Vedic literature describes how the Supreme Being exists outside the boundaries of the material manifestation from where He begins the process of creation. So, He is indeed “beyond what He created. These states of consciousness correspond with the four states known technically as jagrat, svapna, susupti, and turiya - or the wakeful state, the dreaming state, the dreamless state, and the transcendental state.

Srila Prabhupada - “This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination” (Bhag.11.2.38)

When one becomes fully awake in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha at the end of this transformation, the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve as if it never happened and they never left Krishna’s eternal abode. In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness fritters away as the awareness of the marginal living entities once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha position in Krishna Lila.

Further more the marginal living entities billions of lives, as their embodied inferior nitya-baddha secondary self within the material creation will appear totally insignificant to their superior nitya-siddha bodily aspect of their disposition to the point that it never happened, just like when there is light there is no presents of darkness. In addition, there is also no evidence that darkness exists while there is light. Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness.

In other words while there is light, darkness does not exist, similarly when one is situated as their full potential Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness does not exist.
Additionally, due to time difference in Vaikuntha, which is devoid of past and future, ones existence in the mahat-tattva, will be insignificant, as if one never left. It will be as if one never left the light so to speak, once back in the light (just an analogy). Therefore ones nitya-siddha svarupa body is always Krishna Conscious and is always absorbed in serving Krishna

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. Krishna is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - “And if you want to again revive your relationship, Krishna will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So KrishnaYe yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is… ”

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity”April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly… The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada says that we are always with Krishna and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen or dream we are somewhere else’.
Srila Prabhupada -”As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 3rd, 2007
28 Akruranatha

SriGopaldas:

Thank you for your kind words of guidance. I hope that I can attain the stage of unflinching faith in the Supreme Lord and the Guru as you describe.

Nevertheless, it seems you are discouraging me from asking further questions about this subject. Have I got that wrong? I cannot tell, really, from reading your last post. (Sorry)

I know that there are many great devotees who do not have to have systematic and analytical knowledge of all of Lord Caitanya’s teachings. Nevertheless they should be worshipped because of their pure and simple love.

However, I don’t think it is wrong for us to try to examine the scriptures closely, with Srila Prabhupada’s guidance, and try to get a clear understanding of some fine distinctions.

Maybe you are chastising me because I do not already have a clear understanding? In that case please forgive me and show me mercy by enlightening me further. I really do not want to bother anyone, but I am just trying to make sure I have gotten it straight.

Lord Caitanya did take the trouble to give very systematic teachings to Rupa and Sanatana Goswamis, among others, and ordered them to expand on those teachings and give Vedic evidence of them, for the benefit of the whole world. They have written many great books such as Laghu Bhagavatamrta and Hari Bhakti Vilasa.

Jiva Goswami also wrote many very systematic and analytical books, especially the six Sandarbhas, and also Krishnadas Kaviraja and many others have explained the details of Lord Caitanya’s philosophy. Surely it is not wrong for me to ask questions and try to understand the matters described in them?

Srila Prabhupada considered it important enough to give us “Teachings of Lord Caitanya” at an early time, when he did not know if he would be able to complete Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. Later, he did complete Sri Caitanya Caritamrta with full commentary, much of which is very painstakingly analytical.

Even though such systematic knowledge of Lord Caitanya’s teachings may not be necessary for all of us, Srila Prabhupada evidently took the trouble to present it. I do think he wants those disciples who have the aptitude or inclination to try learn these things by discussing them from all angles. I may be a slow learner but please be patient with me.

The modern scientists and philosophers have a very analytical approach to understanding the world, and our acaryas have given a very systematic and perfect explanation of all the Vedic scriptures that will satisfy this modern mentality (if these modern philosophers can only be induced to approach with proper humility and service attitude). As preachers we should learn these things, right?

Myself, I have no qualifications. I have never studied the Sandarbhas of Jiva Goswami or the many writings of Bhaktivinode Thakur. (Maybe someday I will, but for now I am working in a mundane occupation and trying to study Srila Prabhupada’s books when I can. I do love the BBT edition of Brhad-Bhagavatamrta.)

In this thread here on Dandavats, I am mainly asking questions so I can be enlightened by the responses of devotees like you and Shiva who have obviously read more widely and have greater understanding.

I know it might be very boring for many readers. I just assume that those who are not interested will skip over it. [Believe me, they will]

Shiva caught me in a mistake, because I spoke of “shakti tattva” as if jivas do not belong to shakti tattva.

Shiva kindly corrected me and pointed out that as Gaudiya Vaishnavas we do not regard Srimati Radharani as a third kind of living entity, but as the internal potency of Lord Krishna, and as such She is considered on the same level as Vishnu Tattva or the sva-amsha expansions (although she is “potency” or the “predominated Moiety” of Krishna, as opposed to the shaktiman, the energetic possessor of potency or predominator, who is Krishna Himselfe).

I do not claim to have knowledge about these things myself, but am simply asking questions to square this information with the information about various “tattvas” found in Srila Prabhupada’s books. Please forgive me if there is something wrong with my questions. I am sure there are many mistakes in how I express myself.

Maybe you are saying I am like the square who asks for a definition of “jazz”. If I have to ask, I’ll never know. However, in my own way, I do find that asking these questions and trying to understand in the company of faithful devotees is good for me.

Because neither you nor Shiva have directly answered my latest questions so far (or maybe you have and I did not understand), I can try to sum up my understanding:

When we talk of “five tattvas” we are not talking about five different kinds of living entities. Shiva has explained that there are fundamentally only two kinds of living entities: the complete whole and the fragmental, the svamsa and vibbhinamsa, the Vishnu Tattva and the Jiva Tattva.

Vishnu tattva has various energies, and He is the possessor of the energies, or the energetic.

The three principal energies are, internal, external and marginal. (The internal is divided into hladini, sandini and samvit; the external is divided into the three modes of goodness, passion and ignorance).

The jivas are fragmets of His marginal engery, also known as tatastha sakti. As such, it can be proper to refer to the jivas as “shakti tattva”, because they are parts of one of the Lord’s primary shaktis.

[To a certain extent these are questions of semantics or conventional terminolgy we agree to use in explaining Lord Caitanya’s philosophy, but it makes sense that as ISKCON devotees with a mission to preach throughout the world, we should agree upon using the terminology received from Srila Prabhupada and predecessor acaryas.]

Sri Radha and Her Laksmi expansions are “internal” or “antaranga” shakti. Some devotees refer to these Goddesses as belonging to a separate class of living entity known as “shakti tattva”, but actually these are inseparable potencies of Lord Vishnu and are regarded by the Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas as on the same level as Vishnu.

(At least, that is what I understood Shiva to be saying, and it sounds correct. SriGopal are you saying that is not correct? I am sorry, I just could not tell…you might have to dumb it down for me a bit.)

Maya Devi (the “predominated Moiety” of Lord Shiva?) is another of Lord Vishnu’s primary potencies, known as the “external” or “bahiranga” shakti. She is another of Vishnu’s shaktis and so she cannot be a jiva (because by definition jivas are marginal shakti and she is external shakti).

(Or am I getting that wrong? I just want to get the proper systematic understanding. I do not claim to be an authority.)

In his form as Sada Shiva (Lord Advaita), Lord Shiva is actually Vishnu Tattva, but in other forms he may be a jiva performing a function as an important demigod (Shiva Prabhu has explained above).

So, in the Panca Tattva there are three Vishnu Tattvas, Lord Caitanya (who is Krishna, the source of all expansions) and his two svamsa expansions, Lord Nityananda-Balarama, and Lord Advaita (Maha Vishnu and Sada Shiva).

And then Sri Gadadhara is Sri Radha, who is the Lord’s pleasure potency and is not a jiva.

And Srivasa Thakur is the jiva tattva and leader of all the jiva tattva devotees.

“Shiva Tattva” is not really a different kind of living entity, but is a special feature or aspect Lord Vishnu accepts (in the form of His glance) in order to consort with the external energy. He (Sambhu) is not Vishnu, but is a transformation of Vishnu, in the way that yogurt is a transformation of milk. Vishnu never consorts with His illusory potency, but He sends His glance, Lord Shiva, to do so.

Please, do not think I am “debating”. I am trying to ask submissive questions. If the subject matter seems like “dry arguments” perhaps I am failing to make my questions properly understood. To me it is not dry, because I am really trying to understand Srila Prabhupada’s explanations of the teachings of Lord Caitanya, so it is Krishna-katha. It might be a little too academic or analytical for the taste of many nice devotees, but for me it is still topics relating to the teachings of Lord Caitanya.

The philosophy of Krishna consciousness is very simple and pleasing, but for those who want to apply rigorous analysis it can be as nuanced and complete as any philosophical system ever invented. Really, we are just barely scratching the topsoil of the gigantic planet of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 3rd, 2007
29 Unregistered

Dear Akrurantha Das Prabhu:

Hare Krishna. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Please do not misunderstand me i was not criticzing anyone especially even though i might have addressed my comments to you. i actually enjoyed you and Shiva discussing back and forth however i saw that we will all reach a limit in presenting our understanding in terms of spiritual matters. i simply reiterated what Sri Krishna says in Srimad Bhagavad Gita.

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva darsinah

“Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.” (BG 4.34)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Srila Prabhupada’s article titled, “Associates of Lord Chaitanya” and Sri Chaitanya Charitamrta Adilila beginning from the first chapter upto fourth chapter it is all about Pancha-Tattva and there is a detailed explanation by Srila Prabhupada in his divine purports. Adilila Chapter 4.74-94 and 4.214-216 deals exclusively about Srimati Radharani. i hope this quenches your spiritual thirst for the time being. Hare Krishna.

Comment posted by SriGopaldas on October 4th, 2007
30 Gauragopala dasa

Srila Prabhupada initiated me in 1972. I was there when Srila Prabhupada wrote the famous crow-and-tal-fruit logic in 1972. That letter gave insight into our origins; the original letter was inspired by a group of devotees headed by Caru dasa and Madhuvisa (then Swami) as we travelled around Australia on double Decker bus.

This was the firsts time in Australian history the teachings of Lord Caitanya was being distributed throughout Australia, devotees were fresh and inquisitive as they travelled to al major cities and towns throughout the country, those pioneering preaching days were very, very special and our deep philosophical inquires about the origin of the soul went on intensley for months that lead to that famous response from Srila Prabupada.

The problem today in 2007, the impersonal understanding that jiva soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva tatastha is so rampant that devotees have to strongly and boldly speak out against this impersonalism and explain what Srila Prabhupada had told us.

And what is that?

The fact is Srila Prabhupada said throughout that letter we are with Krishna right now in our eternal constitutional position and only think or dream we are not with him, then at the end tells us, now you know, so instead of wondering how you got here in the material world, just chant Hare Krishna and get out and go back home back to Godhead.

All glorious to Srila Prabhupada. Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 4th, 2007
31 Akruranatha

Gauragopala Prabhu:

You say:

“The problem today in 2007, the impersonal understanding that jiva soul originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or jiva tatastha is so rampant . . . . ”

One thing Shiva and I were trying to get at earlier is, where is this conception of “jiva tatastha” as a state of impersonal consciousness or a place of origin coming from?

Has Srila Prabhupada ever used the phrase “tatastha” in that way? Or is it that the phrase was used in that way in the writings of some other acarya in our line?

I see that Bhakta Rod/Svarupa was using it in that way, but he has not explained why. (Has some Gaudiya Math book has used it in that way? How has this phraseology become popular in our society?)

As far as I know, Srila Prabhupada only used “tatastha” as referring to the marginal quality of the jivas, in that they can be situated under the protection of internal energy in their constitutional position as pure devotees, but they can also be covered by the illusory energy.

As such, he is using the word “tatastha” to refer to what the jiva *is*, not a place it may be or state of consciousness it may undergo. The jiva in Vaikuntha is tatastha shakti, the jiva in sayujya is tatastha shakti, and the jiva in samsara is tatastha shakti. The jiva is always tatastha shakti, but the jiva properly *belongs* in Vaikuntha.

The fact that the jiva is called tatastha shakti — i.e. marginal potency — does not imply that its original or constitutional position is other than in the spiritual world.

However, when people start saying “tatastha” means impersonal liberation or brahma sayujya, the (false) implication arises that, because the jiva is well known as “tatastha sakti”, if “tatastha” means impersonal liberation, there must be something intrinsic to the jiva about impersonal liberation. Of course this is a fallacy that must be smashed.

If some acarya has actually used “tatastha” to refer to impersonal liberation or merging in brahman (which, after all, is *between* active devotional service and material, fruitive activities), I would say it is just a coincidence that this same Sanskrt word is being used in two very distinct and different ways.

But, if no one can even point to any authoritative statement in which the word “tatastha” is used to refer to impersonal liberation (so far I have not seen any), then we should just try to convince devotees to stop using the word in that confusing way. It seems to lend credibility to the argument that jivas somehow “belong” in impersonal liberation, which we know is not true.

Impersonal liberation is the “last snare of maya”. It is spiritual suicide, the devouring mouth of kaivalya, a form of mukti never accepted by devotees.

It is not “tatastha” or “jiva tatastha” or “liberated condition also known as tatastha”. We should banish that misleading nomenclature from our vocabulary.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 4th, 2007
32 Akruranatha

Dear SriGopal Prabhu:

Okay, thanks. I have gone and reread the portions of Adi-Lila you recommended. Very nice.

I also looked for the part in Nectar of Devotion where Srila Prabhupada talked about jivas being able to manifest a certain percentage of Krishna’s qualities, Lord Siva a greater percentage, and Lord Narayan an even greater percentage. I could not find that exact part, but the discussions of the qualities of Krishna were illuminating.

(It is very interesting to consider which specific 50 qualities may be manifest by jivas who are pure devotees, which 5 other qualities may be manifest by Shiva and Brahma, which 5 others by Narayana, and the four qualities that are only manifested by Lord Krishna. This is written in Nectar of Devotion with reference to specific qualities that are further described. The question then arises, how do these qualities relate to the personalities like Parvati, Lakshmi and Sri Radha?)

I did see, in going back over the Lord’s instructions to Sanatana Goswami, that Srila Prabhupada uses the term “shakti tattva” as different from “jiva tattva”, but both of which are expansions of the One Supreme Personality of Godhead:

“In the Vedas it is stated that the one becomes many (eko bahu syaam). The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands himself in various forms — vishnu tattva, jiva tattva and shakti tattva” (CC Madhya Lila, Chapter 20, text 173, Purport)

It must have been in that passage or similar passages of Srila Prabhupada’s books that I got the phrase “shakti tattva” that Shiva objected to.

So maybe it was not such a mistake for me to use “shakti tattva” in that way, efter all. Srila Prabhupada has used it in the same way, and I was probably just repeating what I had read.

But Shiva helpfully brought my attention to the different understanding of “shakti tattva” that the Gaudiyas have from some other sampradayas.

When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur wrote, in the passage you quoted, “Divine power is the Predominated Moiety of the divinity who is Predominating Whole. Sri Radhika is the Predominated Counter-Whole of Sri Krsna,” I *think* he was referring to the point Shiva was making.

The word “moiety” is used differently by lawyers and anthropologists, but it denotes a portion, originally a half-share. It is interesting that Bhaktisiddhanta has selected that particular word. He is using technical language to express a technical subject matter.

Saying Divine power is the “Predominated Moiety” may be like saying it is the “better half” of the divinity, although the divinity himself is still whole. Is that why he used the term “moiety”? Does anyone out there know?

By saying “Sri Radhika is the Predominated Counter-Whole”, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta may be saying that Sri Radha is on an equal level with Krishna, although She is predominated.

I am sure these two sentences written by Bhaktisiddhanta contain a lot of information that could be extrapolated on and unpacked. Lord Krishna has his counter-whole in Radha, and all the plenary expansions of Krishna have their own specific counter-wholes who are not jivas.

But I agree, the subject is over my head. I should not speculate but try to inquire submissively from enlightened authorities and render service to them. Absurd inquiries are condemned (I hope mine are not absurd), but “one must also get a clear understanding from [the spiritual master], in submission and service and inquiries.”

“One should not only hear submissively from the spiritual master, but one must also get a clear understanding from him, in submission and service and inquiries. A bona fide spiritual master is by nature very kind toward the disciple. Therefore when the student is submissive and is always ready to render service, the reciprocation of knowledge and inquiries becomes perfect” (B.G. 4.34, Purport)

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 4th, 2007
33 Unregistered

Jai Radhe Akruranath Prabhu, I have been busy moving from california to maui and I have been too busy to answer your questions. This will will be short, later I will respond more.

Durga is not a jiva.

From Jiva Goswami’s Brahma Samhita Tika

“Durga is also described in Narada-pancaratra, in the following conversation of Sruti and Vidya:

Durga is the supreme goddess. She is an incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. She is the transcendental potency of the Lord. She is manifested from the form of Lord Maha-Vishnu.

Simply by understanding her one immediately attains the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not otherwise.

Durga is the personal potency of Lord Krishna, and therefore she is Lord Krishna Himself. For this reason Durga should not be considered manifested from a portion of the Lord’s illusory potency Maya. This fact is confirmed by the following statement of the Nirukti:

Even is one continually worships her, Durga is still difficult to understand.

In the Sammohana Tantra, Durga herself declares:

I am Durga. I possess all virtues. I am not different from Sri Radha, the eternal, supreme goddess of fortune.

She is identical with Gokula’s queen Sri Radha, who possesses a great treasure of love for Krishna. By her grace the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all living entities, is easily understood.

Sometimes Goddess Durga is also described as the supreme controller. This is also correct because there is no difference between the potencies and Lord Krishna, the master of all potencies. This is confirmed by the following words of the Gautamiya Tantra:

Krishna is Durga. Durga is Krishna. One who sees that they are different will not become liberated from the cycle of repeated birth and death. “

Comment posted by shiva on October 4th, 2007
34 Gauragopala dasa

Akruranatha claims he cannot understand where the impersonal interpretation of the word tatastha comes from. One does not have to go far to see how this has happened. Other sects other than ISKCON often quote their interpretation of the Vedas in their claim that the jiva has originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, never been to Goloka or that once going there they can never fall down, these ideas Srila Prabhupada rejected.

Unfortunately it is the impersonal influence of other sects that wrongly explain the Impersonal origins of the jiva that has put the impersonal murkiness on the word ‘tatastha’ that will be correctly explained in the next paragraph. It is those groups and their teachers that have polluted the correct personal teachings of the Vedas.

Again it must be understood we never ever originated from jiva-tatastha consciousness, spark, ray of light, a ‘borderline consciousness’ because we are all eternally nitya-siddha-vigraha .

Try to understand that what these other impersonal groups are teaching, for example - ‘The jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world (tatastha)”.

This idea is completely bogus because the marginal living entity is eternally nitya-siddha and is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving beautiful Krishna.

The only way the marginal living entity can vacate that eternal place and the ’svarupa’ body they serve Krishna as in Goloka beyond the mundane divided time and space of the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, is in their ‘dreams’ or ‘thoughts’, if they foolishly choose to miss use their free will and give up serving Krishna. When that choice is made, the living entity immediately activates their lower nitya-baddha consciousness.

Therefore it is only this secondary conscious dreaming state of the living entity that can be also known as jiva-tatastha, jiva s’akti. jiva prakriti, jiva bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions that describe the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation) or Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti ASPECT OF THEIR OWN MARGINAL CONSCIOUSNESS.

It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.

Conclusion - The word tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.

According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong and either misunderstood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada or misinterpreted the word, or both. The fact is in our original ’svarupa’ bodily form serving Krishna is not only our origial position but also our eternal position; therefore we have never ever been tatastha (BORDERLINE) from that viewpoint and never will be, Why? Because we have never been borderline! We have always been nitya-siddha..

This does not mean we cannot manifest jiva-tatastha or borderline consciousness. That can only be attained from the marginal living entities DREAMING nitya-baddha consciousness outside the eternal personal Kingdom of Krishna Goloka or Vaikuntha.

The problem with many other sects in todays impersonal and materialistic society, is their gurus constantly not only claim we originated from tatastha (with the underlining emphases it is an impersonal origin) but also claim we have never been to Vaikuntha, claiming once their no-one returns, It is obvious that according to their philosophy if we never originated from Vaikuntha, then we must have come from a Impersonal beginning

The impersonal understanding of our origins presented by many other sects of religion and philosophy, are as follows and is completely wrong and misleading.- ‘They believe the Brahmajyoti is the nondifferentiated marginal plane that is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. They consider the rays of the Lord’s transcendental body as without bodily form known as the Brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the Brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the Brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms’.

This idea of ‘sparks’ ‘atoms’ ‘rays’ as our original constitutional position is actually Impersonalism

The fact is ALL marginal living entities referred to as ’sparks’ or ‘atomic particles’ are perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees of Krishna that is perpetually sat-cit-ananda-VIGRAHA. This is the original Krishna Conscious position of all marginal living entities

In other words all of us have a spiritual body are that has always bee that way without beginning and without end. What other impersonally polluted camps call the Brahmajyoti is actually the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. The full potential of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky, is the personal devotional active Vaikuntha planets and the central Goloka-Vrndavana Planet of Radha and Krishna. The final conclusion is that the word tatastha is implicated as an impersonal state of the jiva due to the idea coming from other sects that promote that the jiva originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. It is them that claim tatastha is a ‘borderline’ state of inactive consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada has made it very clear that we are already in Goloka but are now ‘thinking’ or ‘dreaming’ we are not.

Read all the quotes above that clearly explain Srila Prabhupadas position on our original position.

It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.

In the service of Srila Prabhupada your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 5th, 2007
35 Gauragopala dasa

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

The Impersonalists claim that all living entities emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. They claim that within the brahmajyoti , their equilibrium is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They further claim that From the nondifferentiation condition of the marginal living entity, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they (jiva-tatastha) choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

This is where the word jiva-tatastha condition of the marginal living entity gets its impersonal reputation from.

This impersonal understanding is totally rejected by Srila Prabhupada.

The marginal living entity did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, such teachings miss the point that all marginal living entities are originally and perpetually nitya-siddha-vigraha and are eternally situated as their bodily form in Goloka or Vaikuntha as previously explained in quotations from Srila Prabhupada.

Therefore it is the impersonal idea that we all originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, that promotes the word ‘jiva tatastha’ or the living entity as impersonal.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Your fallen yet aspiring servant Gauragopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 5th, 2007
36 Akruranatha

Okay Gauragopala, here we seem to have a clear difference of opinion. It is one of terminology only, but nevertheless it should be rectified. We ought to be able to come to agreement about it.

Please, do not take this as arguing. I submit with great respect that I think Srila Prabhupada has used the terminology “tatastha sakti” differently from what you are proposing. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.

“Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, some hear of him as amazing, and others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.” (B.G. 2.29) This is a great subject matter and if I can truly understand it my life will be perfect.

Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books and lectures, he has stated that the jivas are tatastha shakti. For example:

“As stated in the Bhagavad Gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitesimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times.” (S.B. 1.14.32-33, Purport)

I could give dozens of quotes. Srila Prabhupada says again and again that the jivas are tatastha sakti, and in Caitanya Caritamrta, Lord Caitanya also says it over and over.

I respectfully submit that when Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada say “tatastha sakti”, they are not referring to impersonal liberation, “tatastha consciousness”, or to the “marginal living entities’ secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation)”. They are just referring to the fact that the jivas *are* marginal living entities.

The jivas are described as very small. In the Vedas it is said that they are the size of a ten thousandth part of the tip of a hair. (In Bhagavad Gita the Lord also says they are “immeasurable”).

The way Srila Prabhupada describes it is that, due to being very small (”anu” or atomic), the jivas can become covered over by maya. They have to either stay in the protection of the Lord’s internal energy (where they serve the Lord favorably), or else they will be engaged by the material energy (where they serve the Lord indirectly, in ignorance of their true position). Thus they are known as “marginal potency” or “tatastha sakti”.

You seem to be proposing a different terminology. You are saying words like “jiva prakrti”, “jiva shakti”, “tatatstha shakti” only properly apply to the jiva in the conditioned state (i.e., in the material world). (You might be right about “jiva-bhuta”) Can you find any support in any of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions for your position? I am honestly open to consider it, but it does not sound like Srila Prabhupada to me.

Actual Mayavadis make use of such arguments to say that the jiva only exists in maya, and when it escapes maya it becomes God. But we Gaudiya Vaisnavas say the jiva remains jiva, “jiva prakrti”, “jiva shakti”, “jiva tatastha”, even in the spiritual world. Krishna is the only purusa and we are all His prakrti. As far as I know, that is Srila Prabhupada’s position.

So….we have a clear disagreement about how to use the terms “tatastha shakti”, “jiva shakti”, “jiva prakrti,” that we really ought to be able to clear up in a friendly way for the benefit of all of us. We have only to refer to Srila Prabhupada’s writings and it should be simple.

[I do appreciate your insight that descriptions such as “sparks”, “rays,” “particles” and so on are usually used to describe the jiva outside of the context of its eternal, personal lila in the spiritual world. Still, our terminology is that we really *are* tatatstha shakti, *are* para-prakrti, *are* minute, *are* jiva souls, *are* Krishna’s parts and parcels. It is not that at any time we shall become something else.]

You also talk about “other sects” without naming them, and you give an example of a quotation from one such sect which you describe as an impersonal sect:

‘The jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world (tatastha)”.

You do not provide a citation to explain where this quotation is coming from. (Please do tell us where you got it from. I am eager to know. Is it from a Gaudiya Math translation of “Jaiva Dharma”? Or is it in one of Srila B.R. Shridhar Maharaja’s books?)

I have heard this kind of statement before from Caitanya Sarasvat Gaudiya Math devotees, but I honestly do not know where it comes from. It is definitely not from Srila Prabhupada.

However, we should not condemn these devotees from other Gaudiya Maths or call them names like “impersonalists”. Even though they are saying something different from what Srila Prabhupada taught, that certainly does not mean they are not Vaisnavas or that Srila Prabhupada would want us to be disrespectful to them. We really should be careful to be respectful to all devotees, and *especially* those of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrother’s with whom he was very friendly and intimate. Let’s not do or say anything rash.

I can say two things about the quotation above (assuming it really is a quotation from some Gaudiya Math book, and again assuming it is properly translated):

First, as I have said before, the use of the word “tatastha” as a place the jiva is temporarily situated is a different use of the word, with a totally different meaning, from the way Srila Prabhupada uses it, as a description of jivas as “marginal energy” who may fall under illusion. It may be just an unhappy coincidence that the same word (meaning literally, as you pointed out, “situated on a river bank”) can aptly be applied in two separate ways. As followers of Srila Prabhupada, we should avoid adopting that terminology, or at least, if we do adopt it, we should be careful to avoid its potential for causing confusion.

Second, there may be different descriptions of how the jiva first came into being or first came into the material world. Srila Prabhupada did not seem to want us to trouble ourselves about it. If it is a description of something that supposedly happened in some historical time, then we can tell it is an oversimplification, because there are other, absolutely authoritative statements that the jivas always existed. But conditioned souls sometimes need oversimplifications, and maybe some great acarya such as Bhaktivinode Thakur has given some simplified description. If so, we should walk on eggshells because we do not want to directly or indirectly criticize our worshipable acaryas who are our eternal masters. Srila Prabhupada told us different descriptions are possible:

“Brahma-sayujya and Krishna lila – both may be possible. But *when* you came down from Brahma-sayujya or when you came down from Krishna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krishna conscious and go back home, back to Godhead. . . . Now don’t waste your time with this kaka-taliya-nyaya, ‘crow-and-tal-fruit logic.’ ”

In the above passage from Srila Prabhupada’s letter to Australian devotees (thanks Shiva for providing the link), Srila Prabhupada is directly instructing us not to bother arguing about it. Both may be possible, but we should focus on going back to Godhead.

If some Gaudiya Math devotees have a description of jivas originating in a “line of demarcation” which they call “tatastha”, my feeling is, let them say so. It is a minor point. We do not say it, but they can. We can clarify among ISKCON devotees how Srila Prabhupada’s statements are superior without recklessly casting aspersions on the statements of other spiritual authorities in our line.

The Gaudiya Math devotees are not impersonalists. They still aim at the same destination of becoming eternally liberated servants of Krishna in Goloka Vrndavana. They are our closest spiritual family members. I would not even call them a different “sect”–we are in exactly the same sect, we are all followers of the same acaryas, we are all Rupanugas, Bhaktivinode pariwar, servants of the servants of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada. Where can we find other Vaisnavas closer in theory or practice to us?

It is just that we are specifically in Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada’s branch. As such, we should not waste our time with “crow-and-tal-fruit” arguments about whether it happened like this or like that. Srila Prabhupada ordered us not to. He has taken higher ground.

Srila Prabhupada’s explanation is grander and more all-encompasing, but we do not have to argue with other Gaudiya Vaisnavas about it. Let them accept what their guru might have said, and we accept what Srila Prabhupada said. Maybe they will come around to agreeing with Srila Prabhupada when they truly understand him, but if we directly confront them and call them names, that will never happen.

Srila Prabhupada specifically ordered us not to waste time arguing about it, but for some reason I cannot fathom, many devotees seem to still think this is a fascinating subject.

I wish we could declare a moratorium on “jiva fall” debating. It only seems to disrupt the harmony among devotees. Srila Prabhupada is clearly saying, we should not concern ourselves with the mystery of *when* came down (or to trace out the history of how it took place). “Nitya-baddha” means we cannot trace out that history. We just have to know that our real eternal home is in Vaikuntha, Krishnaloka.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 5th, 2007
37 Akruranatha

Thanks again Shiva, for your authoritative quotations about Goddess Durga. They confirm what I only suspected. You are very learned and well read, and I really appreciate your participation here on Dandavats.

How are things in Maui? I visited there once, a beautiful place, but the devotees seemed to be scattered here and there. I went to Turiya Prabhu’s place near Haiku for the Sunday feast, a beautiful piece of land with lovely Deities and nice small cows. I was sorry to hear (I hope it isn’t true) that they were forced to sell that property.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 5th, 2007
38 Unregistered

Jai Radhe Akruranath Prabhu, Maui is very nice, I don’t know about the Turiya Das situation, I last visited his ashrama over 10 years ago when HH Bir Krsna Goswami gave a sunday feast lecture there.

You wrote this previously:

I did see, in going back over the Lord’s instructions to Sanatana Goswami, that Srila Prabhupada uses the term “shakti tattva” as different from “jiva tattva”, but both of which are expansions of the One Supreme Personality of Godhead:

“In the Vedas it is stated that the one becomes many (eko bahu syaam). The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands himself in various forms — vishnu tattva, jiva tattva and shakti tattva” (CC Madhya Lila, Chapter 20, text 173, Purport)

It must have been in that passage or similar passages of Srila Prabhupada’s books that I got the phrase “shakti tattva” that Shiva objected to.

So maybe it was not such a mistake for me to use “shakti tattva” in that way, efter all. Srila Prabhupada has used it in the same way, and I was probably just repeating what I had read.

The way you had used sakti-tattva and which I objected to was in making this claim:

“They may not at any time become shakti tattva any more than they may become vishnu tattva.”

The jiva is part of sakti-tattva, but sakti-tattva does not refer solely to the jiva, it can refer to any sakti.

You also wrote:

Saying Divine power is the “Predominated Moiety” may be like saying it is the “better half” of the divinity, although the divinity himself is still whole. Is that why he used the term “moiety”? Does anyone out there know?

By saying “Sri Radhika is the Predominated Counter-Whole”, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta may be saying that Sri Radha is on an equal level with Krishna, although She is predominated.

The basic idea is that God is one person. That one person has a female persona and a male persona, i.e. two moieties, two basic personas. The plenary expansions of God, either male or female, are all still that same one person, although they display different quantity and quality of all of God’s personal characteristics, they still are all the same person.

The male persona dominates over the female persona is terms of lila e.g. Krsna is the aggressor in lila. But in an ontological sense they are the same person, therefore Srila Raghava Goswami writes in his Sri Krsna-bhakti-ratna-prakasa

“Because Sri Sri Radha Krsna are not different and because Sri Krsna is the master of all potencies, Therefore Sri Radha is the master and source of all potencies. He is by nature full of sweetness and bliss, free from the three modes, and eternally manifest beyond the material nature. Because Radha is not different from Him, so is She also. It is said that within the Lord are all potencies, the modes and the material nature.”

In lila they act as dominator and dominated, but really they are both the same Supreme Lord.

Comment posted by shiva on October 5th, 2007
39 Japa Jim

Shiva says:
“In lila they act as dominator and dominated, but really they are both the same Supreme Lord.”

I think that is little off the mark.
The energy and the energetic source are one yet different.
(acintya bhedabheda tattva)

Radha is the energy of Krishna, not a plenary expansion of the shaktiman.
The way you say it it sounds like Radha is just a plenary expansion of the shaktiman.
She is not.
She is energy of the energetic.
There is a comparative difference.

Radha is the feminine energy of Krishna.
She is not a plenary expansion of shaktiman.

She is not the supreme controller.
Radha is not the “same supreme Lord” as you say.
She is not Lord.
She is non-different from Krishna in the sense of being his energy.
Please don’t make a God out of the Goddess.

Shiva says: “The plenary expansions of God, either male or female, are all still that same one person”.

Can you present a shastric reference to show that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna?
I don’t think you can.
I think you have some mixed-up ideas that need refined.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 7th, 2007
40 Akruranatha

I have no time today as I must run to Fresno for depositions tomorrow. I am already late for a meeting in Fresno tonight.

I just wanted to leave a short message for Japa Jim. Of course Srimati Radharani is energy of the energetic, shakti of the shaktiman, prakrti of the purusa, predominated, feminine. Shiva certainly knows that.

One point Shiva was making is that the infinitesimal jivas, who are also shakti, are quite different from the Lord’s shaktis such as Radha, Rukmini, and Laksmidevi.

Some Vaishnavas teach that these great personalities like Laksmidevi are jivas, but Lord Caitanya has revealed that they are not.

Jivas are “anu”, meaning atomic or infinitesimal. The Lord is “vibhu”, or unlimitedly great. Both are immeasurable, non-material, brahman. But the atomic brahman, the jivas, can be under the illusion that they are controllers of material nature, whereas the Lord is the factual controller of both the material and internal, spiritual natures. Nature itself is also brahman, but the illusioned jiva falsely takes nature to be something he can control or enjoy.

Thus there are three brahman conceptions: “bhokta bhogyam preritaram ca matva, sarvam proktam tri-vidham brahmam etat” (see, B.G. 13.3 Purport)

The Lord’s personified internal and external potencies are not infinitesimal like the jivas. The internal energy is the Lord’s “better half” or “counter-whole”. As such, She is considered by Lord Caitanya and His followers to be on an equal level with Him.

It is a great mystery that Radharani, although she is subordinate to Krishna, actually enchants and controls Krishna through Her spotless love.

Lord Caitanya kijaya! Sometimes the various scriptures are full of statements that may appear contradictory, but Lord Caitanya’s clear explanations make all perplexities vanish.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 7th, 2007
41 Japa Jim

Akruranatha says:
“I just wanted to leave a short message for Japa Jim. Of course Srimati Radharani is energy of the energetic, shakti of the shaktiman, prakrti of the purusa, predominated, feminine. Shiva certainly knows that.

One point Shiva was making is that the infinitesimal jivas, who are also shakti, are quite different from the Lord’s shaktis such as Radha, Rukmini, and Laksmidevi.”

Japa Jim replies:
Shiva has stated several times on different web sites that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna. That is categorically incorrect and ontologically erroneous. I think it is a mistaken notion on his part that is not shastrically verifiable.

As far as jivas being “quite different” from the shaktis, I would also have to say that in perfection, self-realization and the attainment of madhurya-rasa, the jivas are non-different from the shaktis as an expansion of shakti.
All the gopis are expansions of Radha.
They are not jiva-shakti expansions of Paramatma at that stage.
If and when a living entity gets the bhakti-lata-bjia and cultivates it to the culmination of perfection, such a jiva attains Goloka as an expansion of Radha and as bhakta-tattva is in the same category as the shaktis.
Such souls are “mahatma” (great souls) and bhakta-tattva.
They are no longer in the category of marginal tatastha jivas.
Tatastha-shakti is manifested by Maha-Vishnu in the border realm between the material and spiritual worlds.
The eternal associates of Krishna in Vrindavan are not tatastha-shakti as there is no marginal situation or exposure to the material atmosphere there.

Shiva is confused on a few of the detailed points of siddhanta.
He thinks Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna and that the liberated pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan are marginal energy.
He is incorrect on both counts.
He fled this discussion on another forum when his misconceptions were exposed with shastric siddhanta.
It’s a tedious topic and very difficult to discuss when others aren’t willing to accept anything other than their cherished beliefs that sometime contradict Gaudiya siddhanta.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 8th, 2007
42 Akruranatha

Japa Jim:

At least I do not find it tedious. I am eager to be enlightened.

The position you are taking sounds different to me from what Srila Prabhupada teaches, but I am always willing to admit I was wrong.

Shiva is supporting his statements with scriptural evidence. Can you do the same?

I have been asking you, svarup and Bhakta Rod to cite references for the use of “tatastha sakti” as a temporary state of consciousness.

I am really surprised to find that there seems to be this whole philosophy about it out there, that we can stop being tatastha shakti when we attain perfection. I just have never heard that.

Ideally, I would like to hear from Srila Prabhupada’s books, but if you have quotations from translations of other Gaudiya Vaisnavas, I will consider that, too. Please, quote only the quotation within quotation marks (and make clear your own commentary separately), and please give a citation for your quotes explaining who has written it.

I am happy to get to the bottom of this and be able to decide between two contradictory propositions (i.e., that “tatastha shakti” always remains “tatastha shakti”, versus your proposition that a jiva may become a shakti tattva and cease being a jiva.)

Now I have to run to that deposition.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 8th, 2007
43 Unregistered

Japa jim you wrote:

He fled this discussion on another forum when his misconceptions were exposed with shastric siddhanta.

I stopped debating because we had reached an impasse where there was no point in simply repeating what had already been said. You nor anyone else exposed any so called “misconceptions” with “shastric siddhanta” there, nor can you do it here.

You also wrote:

Shiva is confused on a few of the detailed points of siddhanta.
He thinks Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna and that the liberated pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka Vrindavan are marginal energy.

I never said that Radha is a “plenary expnasion of Krishna”. And if you read this thread you will find citations from the previous acaryas which state that liberated jivas are still tatastha sakti. For example from Jiva Goswami’s Paramatma Sandarbha

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah caktayah. tatra tasam varga-dvayam. eko vargo ‘nadita eva bhagavad-unmukhah. anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paragmukhah. svabhavatas tadiya- jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavac ca.

tat - that; evam - thus; ananta - limitless; eva - inded; jivakhyah - called individual souls; tatasthah - marginal; caktayah. - potencies; tatra - there; tasam - of them; varga-dvayam. - two groups; ekah - one; vargah - group; anadita - from time immemorial; eva - indeed; bhagavad-unmukhah. - favorable to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anyah - others; tv - but; anadita - from time imemmorial; eva - indeed; bhagavat-paragmukhah. - averse to the Supreme Personality of Godhead; svabhavatah - by nature; tadiya - of Him; jana - knowledge; bhavat - because of the nature; tadiya - of Him; jnana - the knowledge; abhavat - because of the absence; ca - also.

Thus the Lord’s marginal [tatasthah] potencies, who are called the individual spirit souls are limitless in number. Still, they may be divided into two groups: 1. the souls who, from time immemorial, are favorable to the Supreme Lord, and 2. the rebellious souls who, from time immemorial, are averse to the Supreme Lord. This is because one group is aware of the Lord’s glories and the other group is not aware of them.

Sri Radha is the counterwhole of Sri Krsna, so she is not a plenary expansion, she is simply the female aspect of the Supreme Lord.

From Srila Prabhupada’s intro to the Teachings of Lord Caitanya

Radha and Krsna are one, and when Krsna desires to enjoy pleasure, He manifests Himself as Radharani. The spiritual exchange of love between Radha and Krsna is the actual display of the internal pleasure potency of Krsna (Radha’s display). Although we speak of “when” Krsna desires, just when He did desire we cannot say. We only speak in this way because in conditional life we take it that everything has a beginning; however, in the absolute or spiritual life there is neither beginning nor end. Yet in order to understand that Radha and Krsna are one and that They also become divided, the question “When?” automatically comes to mind. When Krsna desired to enjoy His pleasure potency, He manifested Himself in the separate form of Radharani.

From Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi lila:

tara madhye vraie nana bhava-rasa-bhede
krsnake karaya rasadika-lilasvade

Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Krsna taste all the sweetness of the rasa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Krsna and Radha are one in two. They are identical. Krsna expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the purusas. Similarly, Srimati Radharani expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Srimati Radharani are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Krsna are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Visnu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Krsna’s pleasure potency are as good as Krsna Himself.

Your idea that jiva souls can “become expansions of Radha” is refuted above unless you can prove that jiva souls can become “womanly forms of Krsna” and “as good as Krsna himself”. Jiva souls cannot “become expansions” of Radha anymore then jiva souls can “become expansions” of anything else. Jiva souls are eternally tatastha sakti. Sri Radha’s personal expansions are not jivas.

From Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Govinda Bhasya:

Because she is not different from the Supreme Lord, Goddess Laksmi is also all pervading. In the Smriti-sastra it is said:

Goddess Laksmi is the mother of the worlds. She is the constant companion of Lord Visnu. As Lord Visnu is all pervading, so is she.

To think that Goddess Laksmi is different from Lord Visnu, but still all-pervading, is a false, a heretical idea. In this way the idea that Goddess Laksmi is an individual spirit soul, like the many millions of other individual spirit souls is refuted.

Comment posted by shiva on October 8th, 2007
44 Japa Jim

Response to Akruranatha:

You say: “The position you are taking sounds different to me from what Srila Prabhupada teaches”.

First of all, Srila Prabhupada doesn’t teach anything different than what is in the Gaudiya shastra. Srila Prabhupada never claimed to be or wanted to be seen as saying anything that is not in the Gaudiya shastra. Sometimes devotees present Srila Prabhupada as an independent authority above and beyond sadhu and shastra. He never wanted to be presented in such a light. So, Srila Prabhupada made a great effort to provide English translations of the Gaudiya shastra for western people.

You say Shiva always substantiates his views with authoritative reference. Well, he presents a lot of quotes but not really quotes that exactly and precisely support his claim that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna or that the parshadas of Krishna in Goloka are marginal jivas.

In my view it appears something like a smokescreen or a blurring of the issues with so many quotes that he appears to know what he is talking about. His quotes do not support either of his erroneous claims that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna or that the eternally liberated devotees of Krishna in Goloka are marginal jivas.

So, you say it is not tedious, but it is very tedious to try and cut through long held and cherished misconceptions of western devotees.

On the first issue of his claiming that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna, I would say the ball is in his court to prove that. I have nothing to prove concerning that issue. Radha is not a plenary expansion of Krishna or she would be a male personality and predominating of shaki as are all the expansions of Krishna.

I don’t think anyone other than Shiva is going to argue that Radha is a plenary expansion of Krishna as Shiva says.
“The plenary expansions of God, either male or female, are all still that same one person, although they display different quantity and quality of all of God’s personal characteristics, they still are all the same person.”

His idea is that Shaktiman is having an affair with Shaktiman rather than Shakti.
Maybe he really knows better but he is just not expressing himself properly in words.
Shiva is an old friend of mine and I personally like him and admire him.
But, on this issue I think he has made a bad choice of words.
On the issue of marginal potency, I think he is just clinging to personal conceptions that he has erroneously read into shastric statements. I think he is more interested in supporting his personal conceptions with shastra than trying to actually understand the deeper and broader meanings of shastra beyond the views he imbibed in his early years in ISKCON.

I am not much for long and tedious dissertations, so I will be as brief and concise as possible.

First, we must understand that jivas are by constitution internal energy.
Srila Prabhupada explains.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

Quote:
“These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency.”

Next, I would like to show that the marginal condition of the jiva is in terms of his being manifested as marginal potency of Maha-Vishnu and that the marginal condition is not insurmountable.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna
yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna

Quote:
“The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.”

So, the marginal condition of the jiva is a condition that does not exist in the original internal potency as exhibited in Goloka Vrindavan. Marginal shakti is manifested by Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja where he lies down and casts his glance over Prakriti.

Next, I would like to show that, for example, all the gopis of Vrindavan are expansions of Radha and not marginal shakti of Maha-Vishnu.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.74-75

kṛṣṇa-kāntā-gaṇa dekhi tri-vidha prakāra

eka lakṣmī-gaṇa, pure mahiṣī-gaṇa āra

vrajāńganā-rūpa, āra kāntā-gaṇa-sāra

śrī-rādhikā haite kāntā-gaṇera vistāra

SYNONYMS

kṛṣṇa-kāntā-gaṇa — the lovers of Lord Kṛṣṇa; dekhi — I see; tri-vidha — three; prakāra — kinds; eka — one; lakṣmī-gaṇa — the goddesses of fortune; pure — in the city; mahiṣī-gaṇa — the queens; āra — and; vraja-ańganā — of the beautiful women of Vraja; rūpa — having the form; āra — another type; kāntā-gaṇa — of the lovers; sāra — the essence; śrī-rādhikā haite — from Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī; kāntā-gaṇera — of the lovers of Kṛṣṇa; vistāra — the expansion.

TRANSLATION

The beloved consorts of Lord Kṛṣṇa are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Rādhikā.

So, all the gopis proceed from Radha.
If a jiva attains svarupa-siddhi as a milkmaid of Krishna and attains Goloka, then such a jiva is manifested in Vrindavan via the expansion of Radha as hladini-shakti as opposed to being tatastha-shakti of Maha-Vishnu from the plane of Viraja.

The other devotees of Krishna in Goloka as manifested via sandhini-shakti.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.65

mātā, pitā, sthāna, gṛha, śayyāsana āra

e-saba kṛṣṇera śuddha-sattvera vikāra

SYNONYMS

mātā — mother; pitā — father; sthāna — place; gṛha — house; śayya-āsana — beds and seats; āra — and; e-saba — all these; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; śuddha-sattvera — of the śuddha-sattva; vikāra — transformations.

TRANSLATION

Kṛṣṇa’s mother, father, abode, house, bedding, seats and so on are all transformations of śuddha-sattva.

PURPORT

“Lord Kṛṣṇa’s father, mother and household affairs are all displayed in the same viśuddha-sattva existence. A living entity situated in the status of pure goodness can understand the form, qualities and other features of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kṛṣṇa consciousness begins on the platform of pure goodness. Although there is a faint realization of Kṛṣṇa at first, Kṛṣṇa is actually realized as Vāsudeva, the absolute proprietor of omnipotence or the prime predominating Deity of all potencies. When the living entity is situated in viśuddha-sattva, transcendental to the three material modes of nature, he can perceive the form, quality and other features of the Supreme Personality of Godhead through his service attitude. The status of pure goodness is the platform of understanding, for the Supreme Lord is always in spiritual existence.

Kṛṣṇa is always all-spiritual. Aside from the parents of the Personality of Godhead, all the other paraphernalia of His existence are also essentially a manifestation of sandhinī-śakti, or a transformation of viśuddha-sattva. To make this more clear, it may be said that this sandhinī-śakti of the internal potency maintains and manifests all the variegatedness of the spiritual world. In the kingdom of God, the Lord’s servants and maidservants, His consorts, His father and mother and everything else are all transformations of the spiritual existence of sandhinī-śakti. The existential sandhinī-śakti in the external potency similarly expands all the variegatedness of the material cosmos, from which we can have a glimpse of the spiritual field.”

Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatan Goswami what it means tatastha-shakti.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109

jīvera ’svarūpa’ haya — kṛṣṇera ‘nitya-dāsa’
kṛṣṇera ‘taṭasthā-śakti’ ‘bhedābheda-prakāśa’
sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya
svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra ‘śakti’ haya

SYNONYMS
jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the constitutional position; haya — is; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nitya-dāsa — eternal servant; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; taṭasthā — marginal; śakti — potency; bheda-abheda — one and different; prakāśa — manifestation; sūrya-aḿśa — part and parcel of the sun; kiraṇa — a ray of sunshine; yaiche — as; agni-jvālā-caya — molecular particle of fire; svābhāvika — naturally; kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; tina-prakāra — three varieties; śakti — energies; haya — there are.

TRANSLATION
“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.

PURPORT
“Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains these verses as follows: Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Kṛṣṇa as one and simultaneously different. Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Ādi-līlā, Chapter Two, verse 96.”

For emphasis I will repeat:
“You belong to Kṛṣṇa’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”

The liberated nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not between the material and spiritual potencies.
They are manifested in Vrindavan via hladini-shakti as consorts or sandhini-shakti in the other rasas with Krishna.

Tatastha-shakti is the jiva who is exposed to the material energy with the potential to transfer to the spiritual internal energy.
The pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not in that situation.

So, the marginal condition of the jiva is only applicable unless and until the jiva attains to pure devotional service.
Srila Prabhupada mentions the transformation of energy in this purport.

Sri Isopanishad 5 purport,
Quote:
“Because He is full of inconceivable potencies, God can accept our service through any sort of medium, and He can convert His different potencies according to His own will.”

So Krishna can convert external potency to internal potency and also remove the marginal condition of the jiva who is already by constitution internal potency.

So, enough for this post.
It is long enough.
I can follow up again later.

All glories to Sri-Sri Guru and Gauranga.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 9th, 2007
45 Unregistered

Akruranatha says – ‘One thing Shiva and I were trying to get at earlier is, where is this conception of “jiva tatastha” as a state of impersonal consciousness or a place of origin coming from? As far as I know, Srila Prabhupada only used “tatastha” as referring to the marginal quality of the jivas, in that they can be situated under the protection of internal energy in their constitutional position as pure devotees, but they can also be covered by the illusory energy. As such, he is using the word “tatastha” to refer to what the jiva *is*, not a place it may be or state of consciousness it may undergo. The jiva in Vaikuntha is tatastha shakti, the jiva in sayujya is tatastha shakti, and the jiva in samsara is tatastha shakti. The jiva is always tatastha shakti, but the jiva properly *belongs* in Vaikuntha’

Comment – ‘The point I am trying to make is the word tatastha BY ITS ENGLISH DEFINITION does NOT refer to the indidividual jiva - tattva in its full nitya-siddha bodily glory and potential in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, tatastha means borderline. The word tata means a shore or bank, like the shoreline of an ocean; and the verbal root stha means to be situated. The shore is not part of the ocean, yet it is not part of the land which borders the ocean. One situated on the shoreline is known as tatastha. He is situated neither within the ocean, nor on the land.. According that description, those who claim we are originally tatastha are wrong. I cannot accept your interpretation because tatastha refers only to the nitya-baddha dreaming Consciousness.

‘Akruranatha has also made comments that all the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true to a degree, but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy or jiva-tattva, can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub- conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Some maybe Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down even from Goloka.

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

Akruranatha says – ‘I also looked for the part in Nectar of Devotion where Srila Prabhupada talked about jivas being able to manifest a certain percentage of Krishna’s qualities, Lord Siva a greater percentage, and Lord Narayan an even greater percentage. I could not find that exact part, but the discussions of the qualities of Krishna were illuminating’

Comment – This seems to imply the Lord Siva and Lord Narayana are jiva which is incorrect, they are plenary expansions of Krishna or Vishnu tattva and this comment you have quoted is very misleading’.

Akruranatha says - “Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, some hear of him as amazing, and others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.” (B.G. 2.29) This is a great subject matter and if I can truly understand it my life will be perfect. Throughout Srila Prabhupada’s books and lectures, he has stated that the jivas are tatastha shakti. For example: “As stated in the Bhagavad Gita (4.8), the Lord and His eternal associates, who are also liberated souls like the Lord, come down on this earth at certain intervals. The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva.’

Comment – ‘Yes I agree with you but this refers to the soul or jiva-tattva OUTSIDE of Goloka. This refers to the nitya-baddha consciousness and not ones nitya-siddha eternal bodily identity that is perpetually in Goloka or Vaikuntha’.

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

‘You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly… The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)… When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget Krishna, that is material. And as soon as you become Krishna conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in London. It is Vaikuntha. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 9th, 2007
46 Unregistered

Finally someone has understood that our ’svarupa body’ is eternally in Goloka or Vaikuntha and cannot be tatastha, I enjoyed reading jappa Jims understanding of Shastra, very interesting points For emphasis I will repeat:

jappa Jim - “You belong to Krishna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”

The liberated nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not between the material and spiritual potencies.
They are manifested in Vrindavan via hladini-shakti as consorts or sandhini-shakti in the other rasas with Krishna.

jappa Jim - Tatastha-shakti is the jiva who is exposed to the material energy with the potential to transfer to the spiritual internal energy. The pure devotees of Krishna in Goloka are not in that situation.

comment - It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism.

Akruranatha has also made comments that all the gopis and cowherd boys cannot fall down from Goloka, that is true but what does fall down really mean? The answer is their nitya-siddha bodies are eternally in Goloka but some, who are marginal energy , can, and do sometimes fall down in a sub-conscious non-Krishna dream state, but never as their nitya-siddha body. Many residents of Goloka are Vishnu-tattva and yes, they can never fall down in anyway however, all jiva-tattva’s can fall down from their own nitya-siddha body that eternally serves Krishna, even from Goloka.

‘Even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down. Srila Prabhupada Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

comment - When one again begins to becomes fully Krishna Conscious, their nitya-baddha transformation in the material creation begins to dissipate and one’s genuine conscious awareness returns back to their unadulterated authentic svarupa bodily identity. In this way the insignificant dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of their marginal identity will dissolve and be as if it never was, or that one never left Goloka or Vaikuntha in the first place. Srila Prabhupada confirms this

‘This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination” (Bhag.11.2.38)

comment - In this way the inferior nitya-baddha consciousness is dispelled as the awareness of the marginal living entities full bodily potential once again takes up there eternal superior nitya-siddha residents and bodily position in Krishna Lila.

It is obvious there are innumerable expansions of Krishna (energetic) who are not marginal but are direct expansions of Krishna acting out in different rasa’s. They include Radha, Balarama. Lord Caitanya (the combination of Radha and Krishna) Narayana, Siva, Luxmi. Everyone in the Panca tattva except Narada muni (he is jiva-tattva)

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 9th, 2007
47 Akruranatha

I believe the Purport to B.G. 15.7 is very pertinent to this discussion. There, Srila Prabhupada writes:

“The living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord — eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Suupreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, snatanah.”

* * *

“As fragmental parts and parcels of the Supreme Lord, the living entities also have fragmental portions of His qualities, of which independence is one. Every living entity, as an individual soul, has his personal individuality and a minute form of independence. By misuse of that independence one becomes a conditioned soul, and by proper use of independence he is always liberated.”

“In either case, he is qualitatively eternal, as the Supreme Lord is. In his liberated state he is free from this material condition, and he is under the engagement of transcendental service unto the Lord; in his conditioned life he is dominated by the material modes of nature, and forgets the transcendental loving serviceof the Lord. As a result, he has to struggle very hard to maintain his existence in the material world.”

* * *

“The fragmental portion of the Supreme Lord is not like some material broken part. We have already understood in the Second Chapter that the spirit cannot be cut into pieces. This fragment is not materially conceived.”

* * *

“That fragmental portion, when liberated from the bodily entanglement, revives its original spiritual body in the spiritual sky in a spiritual planet and enjoys association with the Supreme Lord. It is, however, understood here that the living entity, being the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, is qualitatively one with the Lord, just as the parts and parcels of gold are also gold.”

[End of quotation]

From the above passage and many others I have read in Srila Prabhupada’s books, I have always understood that the jiva remains a jiva even in the spiritual world.

The Lord has various energies by which He manifests all the varieties of the spiritual and the material worlds. Among those energies, the Lord’s marginal potency or tatastha shakti is composed of unlimited fragmental or vibhinamsa expansions of the Lord. They have the unique quality of being subject to being covered over by the material energy. They can be situated in the spiritual or material world, but they remain jivas, or “fragmental parts”, eternally.

[We just have to understand that the material dualistic conception of “fragment” does not apply to spirit]

The Lord’s internal energy and external energy are not jivas, according to the understanding I have gleaned from Srila Prabhupada’s books. (I do not pretend to be an authority. I am willing to keep an open mind and listen to explanation of sincere devotees backed up by scriptural evidence).

These other shaktis of the Lord, who are not jivas, are never subject to being covered by maya.

My (possibly faulty) understanding has been that among the Lord’s eternal associates in the spiritual world, some are jiva tattva (tatastha sakti), who can at least *potentially* be covered by material energy. Others are manifestations of internal energy (sometimes referred to as shakti tattva), who are never subject to being covered by external energy.

My knowledge is limited because I have not read widely outside of Srila Prabhupada’s books. My wife told me that in Jaiva Dharma (which I have not yet read) there is a very clear explanation of different levels of intimate associates in the spiritual world, and that some are jivas and some are not.

I have read that among the gopis in Gokula, some were jivas and some were not. I remember reading that in the 10th Canto commentary by Hrdayananda Maharaja and Gopiparanadhana. I should go back and look at that again.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 9th, 2007
48 Akruranatha

Okay so here is the discussion from the Tenth Canto I was talking about. (S.B. 10.29.9 Purport):

[I am not sure it has any relevance to our discussion of “tatastha shakti” but it was such nectar to read that I just cant help but share it]

[Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura comments]:

“In this context we will make our analysis according to the method described in Srila Rupa Goswami’s Ujjvala-nilamani. There are two categories of gopis: the eternally perfect (the nitya-siddhas) and those who have become perfect by practicing bhakti-yoga (the sadhana siddhas). The sadhana siddhas are of two categories: those who belong to special groups and those who do not. And there are also two classes of the gopis belonging to special groups: namely the sruti-caris, who come from the group of the personified Vedas, and the rsi-caris, who come from the group of sages who saw Lord Ramacandra in the Dandakaranya forest.”

“The same fourfold categorization of the gopis is given in the Padma Purana:

gopyas tu srutayo jneya
rsi-ja gopa-kanyakah
deva-kanyas ca rajendra
na manusyah kathancana

‘It is understood that some of the gopis are personified Vedic literatures, while others are reborn sages, daughters of cowherds, or demigod maidens. But by no means, my dear King, are any of them ordinary humans.’ . . . ”

“The daughters of cowherds, referred to here as gopa-kanyas, must be eternally perfect, since we never hear of them having executed any sadhana. Their apparent sadhana of worshiping goddess Katyayani in the role of gopis merely manifests their manner of playing like human beings, and the Bhagavatam narrates the account of this worship only to show how they had fully taken on the role of cowherd girls.”

“That the gopa-kanya gopis are actually nitya siddhas, eternally perfect devotees of the Lord, is established by a statement in Brahma-samhita (5.37) — ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih — which proves that they are the Lord’s spiritual pleasure potency. Similarly, we have the words of the Gautamiya-tantra, hladini ya maha saktih. Further corroboration of their eternal perfection is that these gopis, being coeternal with Lord Krsna, their lover, are mentioned along with Him in the eighteen-syllable mantra, the ten-syllable mantra and others, and also that the worship of these mantras, and also the srutis that present them, have been in existence since beginningless time.”

[End of quote]

This purport continues with Visvanatha’s discussion of Rupa Goswami’s Ujjvala-nilamani, that the the gopis who were daughters of demigods (the deva-kanyas) are partial expansions of the gopies who are eternally perfect.

However, the gopis who are personified Vedas, and the gopis who were formerly sages in Dandakaranya, are sadhana-siddha. Evidence is given for how they practiced sadhana.

These verses and purports in Chapter 29 are wonderfully sweet. To explain all of it would sidetrack and bog down our discussion, but I encourage everyone to re-read this chapter because it is so wonderful.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 9th, 2007
49 Akruranatha

I will venture to respond to Japa Jim and Bhakta Rod.

In all of these discussions I hope we can remain personally very respectful to each other and remember that we are only trying to become enlightened by His Divine Grace. I will try to avoid striving for the victory of “my” position over “your” position (which can lead to misunderstandings and even ad hominem arguments and so on). I am just trying to understand Lord Caitanya’s position correctly.

Japa Jim reminds us: “First of all, Srila Prabhupada doesn’t teach anything different than what is in the Gaudiya shastra. Srila Prabhupada never claimed to be or wanted to be seen as saying anything that is not in the Gaudiya shastra. Sometimes devotees present Srila Prabhupada as an independent authority above and beyond sadhu and shastra. He never wanted to be presented in such a light. So, Srila Prabhupada made a great effort to provide English translations of the Gaudiya shastra for western people.”

I agree 100%. If something I said suggested that Srila Prabhupada presented himself as an independent authority, I apologize. It was not my intention. I firmly accept that Srila Prabhupada’s teaching are all exactly in line with Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta.

Japa Jim says: “So, you say it is not tedious, but it is very tedious to try and cut through long held and cherished misconceptions of western devotees.”

I admit I am a western devotee, and a very materialistic and dull fellow at that. However, we should not forget that some Indian Hindus may also have many cherished misconceptions, and sometimes it is harder to preach to them because they are too proud of their “already knowing” about Krishna to take Srila Prabhupada’s instructions with complete faith.

There was a nice lecture in, I think, Bombay, in which Srila Prabhupada was explaining to a primarily Indian audience that this Krishna consciousness will act, just like fire will act — i.e., it will burn you if you touch it — and similarly this Krishna consciousness is actiung on these western boys and girls, because they are accepting right information from Srila Prabhupada. One has to accept right information, not wrong information.

[Anyway, I am doing a lousy job of trying to paraphrase what I heard in this recorded class a long time ago. It is a great class and I should go find a transcript. But the point I got from it was that the western devotees had an advantage over many of the Indian guests, because the western devotees were accepting Srila Prabhupada’s authorized information straight, whereas the guests had been accepting information from various unauthorized sources and did not have complete faith in the transcendental, parampara instructions of Srila Prabhupada.]

So, anyway in this discussion I am taking for granted that all of us are completely faithful followers of Srila Prabhupada and we understand he is giving us exactly the message of Lord Caitanya intact. Let’s please not talk about or concern ourselves with who is western or eastern or who has “long held and cherished misconceptions.” The discussion may then very easily descend into a mundane debate in which Lord Caitanya’s grace will not descend.

Japa Jim, you quote from Adi-Lila 2.96 Purport:

Quote:
“The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.”

You comment:

“So, the marginal condition of the jiva is a condition that does not exist in the original internal potency as exhibited in Goloka Vrindavan. Marginal shakti is manifested by Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja where he lies down and casts his glance over Prakriti.”

I still think you are misinterpreting this Purport. Your comment adds a lot of information about marginal shakti being manifest by Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja, but you do not expolain where that information is coming from. It certainly is not found anywhere in the Purport you quoted, or even in the surrounding verses and purports.

The way I always heard it is, by glancing at the material nature Maha Vishnu impregnates her with numerous living entities (jivas). These jivas are not being manifested from nothingness but are always existing, although sometimes they are remaining dormant (inactive) in the body of Maha Vishnu.

The quotation from the Purport in Adi-Lila 2.96 does not appear to me to be saying that the marginal potency ever ceases to be marginal potency. [I have to admit that I do not find that one sentence from the Purport to be perfectly clear.]

The language of the Purport, taken as a whole and in context, suggests to me the following meaning for the sentence:

The marginal energy (jiva) in a conditioned state experiences duality because he is actually spirit, not matter. Therefore his “quality” is the same as the internal energy (i.e., eternal, ever fresh, full of knowledge and bliss), and he does not properly belong in a situation where he experiences decay, impermanence, misery and ignorance. That same material energy can be transformed into spiritual energy by engaging everything in devotional service.

The immediately preceding sentence states: “Although all three potencies — namely, internal, extenal and marginal — are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions.”

In other words, Krishna can use His same energy to act as material or spiritual. Therefore we can take ordinary “material” objects like ghee, fire, incense, flowers, rice, etc., and use them in worshiping the Deity. If they are offered with bhakti, Krishna accepts them (B.G. 9.26), so they are not material.

As explained in one of the four seed verses of the Bhagavatam (2.9.34): rte ‘rtham yat pratiyeta, na pratiyeta catmani, tad vidyad atmano mayam, yathabhaso yatha tamah “O Brahma, whatever appears to be of any value, if it is without relation to Me, has no reality. Know it as My illusory energy, that reflection which appears to be in darkness” It is the illusioned soul’s failure to see things in their proper relation to Krishna which makes them act as material, illusory energy. By using them in Krishna’s service they become “Krishna-ized.”

Sometimes Srila Prabhupada has explained that the mother cat carries the kitten and the rat in the same jaws, but the kitten feels very pleased and protected, but the rat feels dread and horror. It is the same idea.

So when Srila Prabhupada states that “in the original internal potencies there are no such conditions”, he is merely stating (as far as I can tell), that for the liberated soul there is no duality, no identification with the temporary, decaying material body. He is *not* saying, that the jiva ever ceases to be marginal energy.

The translation and purport of Madhya 20.108-109 which you quoted are exactly in line with what I have always heard. Sanatan Goswami asks, “Who am I?”, and the Lord replies that he *is* an eternal servant Krishna, he is *constitutionally* tatastha shakti because he is *constitutionally* one in quality but minute in quantity.

I understand Japa Jim to be saying that the spirit soul in the liberated condition ceases to be minute in quantity and changes its constitutional position. That position is not expressed in the verse and purport to Madhya 20.108-109.

In fact the word “constitutional” in this context carried the connnotation of the essential, unchanging nature.

The statement Japa Jim hangs his hat on is, “You belong to Krsna’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”

This statement appears to me to be saying that the jiva, by its essential nature, is situated between the material and spiritual potencies. It never at any time becomes the “spiritual potency” or the “material potency”. Whether situated in the spiritual world or the material world, it always remains “marginal potency,” by its very nature. Therefore, it has a relationship with both the material and spiritual world.

There is no statement that, “if you go back to Godhead, you will no longer be situated between the material and spiritual potencies, you will no longer belong to Krsna’s marginal potency, you should no longer be called marginal potency, you will become the spiritual potency, you will become the personified hladini shakti,” or anything of that sort. Japa Jim, Svarupa and Bhakta Rod have so far not found such a statement. I am willing to consider any such authoritative statement, but so far I have not seen it.

The conceptions of that sort being expressed by Japa Jim and others here, as far as I can tell, merely extrapolations or faulty deductions which are not in accordance with the whole body of Srila Prabhupada’s books. I have yet to see a quotation from them that exactly expresses that point.

Some of the confusion may be caused by the description of the jiva soul as being “situated” between the material and spiritual potencies. The word “situated” usually denotes temporarily occupying a particular space. I do not think that is how it is being used here. The minute jiva, due to its being capable of being either conditioned by material energy, or properly engaged in pure devotional service under the control of the spiritual energy, is actually — by its own, unchanging, constitutional nature — neither the material potency nor the spiritual potency, but something in between.

Therefore it is described as “situated” between the two, not in the sense of temporarily occupying that “space” on the border between the two, but rather in the sense of its being quantitatively different, eternally.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 9th, 2007
50 Unregistered

Japa Jim you wrote:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

“The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa.”

So, the marginal condition of the jiva is a condition that does not exist in the original internal potency as exhibited in Goloka Vrindavan. Marginal shakti is manifested by Maha-Vishnu from the Viraja where he lies down and casts his glance over Prakriti.

You misunderstand what Srila Prabhupada is saying. The marginal and external energies exist under “various conditions” as marginal and external energies i.e. for the jiva that condition is that of being a tiny weak separate conscious entity as well as able to come under the influence of the external energy, those conditions do not exist in the internal potency. What is being said is that the internal potency in it’s pure or original form does not possess the qualities of the jivas nor the external energy, e.g. the jivas are different then the internal energy as is the external energy different from jiva etc. So in fact this verse contradicts your position rather then supports it. It is saying the jivas are different then the internal energy.

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Sri Jiva says:

tad evam ananta eva jivakhyas tatasthah saktayah
tatra tasam varga-dvayam eko vargo’ nadita

eva bhagavad-unmukhah anyas tv anadita eva bhagavat-paranmukhah svabhavatas tadiya-jnana-bhavat tadiya-jnanabhavat ca tatra prathamo’ ntaranga- sakti vilasanu
grhito nitya-bhagavat-parikara rupo garudadikah asya
ca tatasthatvam jivatva-prasiddher isvaratva-kotav
apravesat aparam tu tat paranmukhatva-
dosena labdha-chidraya mayaya paribhutah samsari

The number of jivas is unlimited. They are divided into two classes. One class is favorable to the Lord without beginning. The other class is averse to the Lord without beginning. The first class is favorable to the Lord because of knowledge of relationship with the Lord. The second class is averse to the Lord because of lack of that knowledge. The favorable jivas are all recipients of the Lords splendid internal energy. They are the eternal associates of the Lord, such as Garuda. They are not in the category of the Lord, as in shown by the scriptures. They are still tatastha or jiva. The second class of jivas is devoid of the help of the internal energy as they are averse to the Lord. Because of this lack, they are overwhelmed by maya and take repeated birth in the material world.

You also wrote

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.74-75

“The beloved consorts of Lord Kṛṣṇa are of three kinds: the goddesses of fortune, the queens, and the milkmaids of Vraja, who are the foremost of all. These consorts all proceed from Rādhikā.”

So, all the gopis proceed from Radha.
If a jiva attains svarupa-siddhi as a milkmaid of Krishna and attains Goloka, then such a jiva is manifested in Vrindavan via the expansion of Radha as hladini-shakti as opposed to being tatastha-shakti of Maha-Vishnu from the plane of Viraja.

You are extrapolating a theology. There are no direct statements which back up your claim and there are many direct statements which contradict your claim. The above verse is not talking about jivas, it is talking about Sri Radha’s plenary expansions as Srila Prabhupada points out in the verese that follow:

CC Ādi 4.76: Just as the fountainhead, Lord Kṛṣṇa, is the cause of all incarnations, so Śrī Rādhā is the cause of all these consorts.

CC Ādi 4.77: The goddesses of fortune are partial manifestations of Śrīmatī Rādhikā, and the queens are reflections of Her image.

CC Ādi 4.78: The goddesses of fortune are Her plenary portions, and they display the forms of vaibhava-vilāsa. The queens are of the nature of Her vaibhava-prakāśa.

CC Ādi 4.79: The Vraja-devīs have diverse bodily features. They are Her expansions and are the instruments for expanding rasa.

CC Ādi 4.80: Without many consorts, there is not such exultation in rasa. Therefore there are many manifestations of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī to assist in the Lord’s pastimes.

CC Ādi 4.81: Among them are various groups of consorts in Vraja who have varieties of sentiments and mellows. They help Lord Kṛṣṇa taste all the sweetness of the rāsa dance and other pastimes.

PURPORT

As already explained, Kṛṣṇa and Rādhā are one in two. They are identical. Kṛṣṇa expands Himself in multi-incarnations and plenary portions like the puruṣas. Similarly, Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī expands Herself in multiforms as the goddesses of fortune, the queens and the damsels of Vraja. Such expansions from Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī are all Her plenary portions. All these womanly forms of Kṛṣṇa are expansions corresponding to His plenary expansions of Viṣṇu forms. These expansions have been compared to reflected forms of the original form. There is no difference between the original form and the reflected forms. The female reflections of Kṛṣṇa’s pleasure potency are as good as Kṛṣṇa Himself.

The plenary expansions of Kṛṣṇa’s personality are called vaibhava-vilāsa and vaibhava-prakāśa, and Rādhā’s expansions are similarly described. The goddesses of fortune are Her vaibhava-vilāsa forms, and the queens are Her vaibhava-prakāśa forms. The personal associates of Rādhārāṇī, the damsels of Vraja, are direct expansions of Her body. As expansions of Her personal form and transcendental disposition, they are agents of different reciprocations of love in the pastimes of Lord Kṛṣṇa, under the supreme direction of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī. In the transcendental realm, enjoyment is fully relished in variety. The exuberance of transcendental mellows is increased by the association of a large number of personalities similar to Rādhārāṇī, who are also known as gopīs or sakhīs. The variety of innumerable mistresses is a source of relish for Śrī Kṛṣṇa, and therefore these expansions from Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī are necessary for enhancing the pleasure potency of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. Their transcendental exchanges of love are the superexcellent affairs of the pastimes in Vṛndāvana. By these expansions of Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī’s personal body, She helps Lord Kṛṣṇa taste the rāsa dance and other, similar activities. Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī, being the central petal of the rāsa-līlā flower, is also known by the names found in the following verses.

So these verses which you quote to support your position are in fact contradictory to your position unless you think jivas can become God.

You also claim that “The other devotees of Krishna in Goloka as manifested via sandhini-shakti.”

That is also false. Sandhini is the aspect of the cit sakti which manifests and maintains forms and eternal existence. It acts upon the jiva, it manifests the forms of the jiva, and it is present in a minute way within the jiva.

Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 4.62

anandamse hladini, sad-amse sandhini
cid-amse samvit — yare jnana kari’ mani

Hladini is His aspect of bliss; sandhini, of eternal existence; and samvit, of cognizance, which is also accepted as knowledge.

PURPORT

In his thesis Bhagavat-sandarbha (103), Srila Jiva Gosvami explains the potencies of the Lord as follows: The transcendental potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by which He maintains His existence is called sandhini. The transcendental potency by which He knows Himself and causes others to know Him is called samvit. The transcendental potency by which He possesses transcendental bliss and causes His devotees to have bliss is called hladini.

Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 4.71, purport

“The sandhini portion, Sri Krishna’s internal potency, has manifested the all-attractive form of Sri Krishna, and the same internal potency, in the hladini feature, has presented Srimati Radharani”

From Bhaktivinoda’s Jaiva Dharma

The samvit-vrtti of svarupa-sakti manifests all the various moods of the relationships (sambandha-bhavas) within Vraja. Sandhini manifests everything in Vraja that consists of water, earth and so on, such as the villages, forests, gardens, and Giri-Govardhana, which are places of Krsna’s pastimes. It also manifests all the other transcendental objects used in Krsna’s pastimes, as well as the transcendental bodies of Sri Radhika, Sri Krsna, the sakhis, sakhas, cows, dasas and dasis, and so on. Sri Krsna is always engrossed in supreme bliss in the form of the pranaya-vikara of hladini, and being endowed with the various bhavas manifested by the samvit-vrtti, He relishes pranaya-rasa. Through the samvit-vrtti of His para-sakti, Krsna performs activities such as attracting the gopis by playing upon His vamsi, taking the cows out for grazing (go-carana), rasa-lila and other pastimes. Sri Krsna, who is Vraja-vilasi (the enjoyer of pastimes in Vraja), always remains immersed in rasa in His transcendental dhama, which is manifested by the sandhini potency. Amongst all the abodes of His pastimes, the abode of His Vraja pastimes is the sweetest.

Vrajanatha: You have just explained that sandhini, samvit, and hladini are all manifestations of svarupa-sakti. You have also said that jivasakti is an atomic part of svarupa-sakti, and that maya-sakti is the reflection of svarupa-sakti. Now kindly explain how the sandhini, samvit, and hladini tendencies act upon the jiva and on maya.

Babaji: Jiva-sakti is the atomic potency of svarupa-sakti, and all three aspects of svarupa-sakti are present in it to a minute degree. Thus, the hladini-vrtti is always present in the jiva in the form of brahmananda (spiritual bliss); samvit-vrtti is present in the form of brahma-jnana (transcendental knowledge); and sandhini-vrtti is present in the jiva’s minute form. I will explain this subject matter more clearly when we discuss jiva-tattva. In maya-sakti, the hladinivrtti is manifest in the form of mundane pleasure (jadananda); samvit-vrtti is manifest in the form of material knowledge (bhautika-jnana); and the sandhini-sakti is manifest in the form of the entire material universe, which consists of the fourteen planetary systems and the material bodies of the jivas…

… You have explained that cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti are three manifestations of svarupa-sakti; that hladini, samvit, and sandhini are three functions (vrttis) of svarupasakti; and that these three functions – namely, hladini, samvit, and sandhini – act on the three manifestations, cit-sakti, jiva-sakti, and maya-sakti. All of this is simply the work of sakti.

From Mahaprabhura Siksa: The Teachings of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu by Bhaktivinoda Thakura

krsnera svabhavika tina sakti parinati
cic chakti, jiva sakti ara maya sakti

Lord Krsna naturally has three enegetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency. (C.C.Madhya 20,111)

There is a karika to elaborate on this:

saktih svabhaviki krsne tridah cety upapadyate
sandhini tu balam samvij jnanam hladakari kriya
sakti-saktimato bhedo nastiti sara samgrahah
tathapi bheda-vaicitryam acintya-sakti- karyatah
sandhinya sarvam evaitat nama-rupa-gunadikam
cin-maya-bhedato bhedo visva-vaikunthayoh kila
samvida dvi-vidham jnanam cin-maya bhedatah kramat
cin-maya-bhedatah siddham hladinya dvi- vidham sukham
hladini sri svarupa ya saiva priyankari
mahabhava-svarupa sa hladini varsabhanavi

In the scriptures, Krsna’s three intrinsic energies are described as bala (sandhini) , jnana (samvit) and kriya (hladini) . The energies and the source of the energies are non-different. This is the conclusion of the scriptures. However, through the operation of the inconceivable energy of the Lord, variety becomes manifest. The function of the sandhini (existence) sakti is manifestation of name, form and qualities of things. This brings about the material existence through sandhini’s material function and the spiritual existence through its spiritual function. Jnana also has two varieties, spiritual and material samvit. Similarly there are spiritual and material hladini energies which give rise to spiritual and material pleasure. The hladini sakti is the dear servant of Krsna. She becomes Radha, the daughter of Vrsabhanu in manifesting mahabhava, the highest ecstasy of spiritual love…

…In the realm of cit sakti, the sandhini gives rise to the qualities, the objects, and all other things which assist in the Lord’s pastimes. Krsna’s form, name, qualities and pastimes are all due to the sandhini potency. By the influence of the samvit sakti on the cit sakti all the spiritual moods arise. By the hladini influence on the cit sakti, prema expands.

By the influence of the sandhini on the jiva sakti, the jiva’s spiritual existence, name and place appear. Through the influence of samvit on the jiva sakti the knowledge of God arises. Through the hladini influence the jiva experiences spiritual bliss. The jiva’s experience of bliss of samadhi by practicing astanga yoga and merging into brahman are also the effects of the samvit on the jiva.

By the influence of sandhini on maya sakti, the material universe composed of fourteen material planetary systems, the gross and subtle bodies of the jivas and material senses, and the goals of the jivas such as svaga, are manifested. The material name, form qualities and actions of the conditioned jiva all arise from this. By the influence of the samvit on the maya sakti, the worries, hopes, speculations and thoughts of the conditioned jiva arise. By the influence of hladini on the maya sakti, gross material bliss and the subtle material happiness of svarga arise.

One should understand that the sandhini, samvit and hladini manifest their pure, full form in the cit sakti. In the jiva sakti, these appear in very minute quantity. In the maya sakti these appear in a perverted or shadow form. For the jiva, the forms manifested in maya are detrimental. In the jiva himself, these three influences are not detrimental but dilute. Without joining to the hladini manifested in the cit sakti, the jiva cannot experience full spiritual bliss. Such joining cannot be accomplished, except through the mercy of Krsna or his devotee.

From Bhaktivinoda’s Jaiva Dharma

Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?

Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).

Vrajanatha: What is the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: It is the nature that enables one to be situated between both worlds, and to see both sides. Tatastha-svabhava is the eligibility to come under the control of either of the saktis. Sometimes the shore is submerged in the river because of erosion, and then again it becomes one with the land because the river changes its course. If the jiva looks in the direction of Krsna – that is, towards the spiritual world – he is influenced by Krsna sakti. He then enters the spiritual world, and serves Bhagavan in his pure, conscious, spiritual form. However, if he looks towards maya, he becomes opposed to Krsna and is incarcerated by maya. This dual-faceted nature is called the tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)…

…Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

And then some more from Jaiva Dharma about gopis

Vrajanatha: Will you please explain who are the nitya-siddha gopis and who are the sadhana-siddha gopis?

Babaji: Srimati Radharani is Sri Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, and the eight principal sakhis are Her first kaya-vyuha (bodily expansions). The other sakhis follow behind as Her further kaya-vyuha. All these sakhis are nitya-siddha; they are svarupa-sakti-tattva, not jiva-tattva. The general sakhis of Vraja – who attained perfection by performing sadhana – follow Srimati Radharani’s eternal associates (parikara), and they are known as sadhana-siddha jivas. Having been imbued with the potency of hladini-sakti, they attained salokya (residence in vraja-aprakrta-lila) with the nityasiddha sakhis of Vraja. Jivas who attain perfection by the path of raganuga-sadhana in srngara-rasa are included amongst the sadhana-siddha sakhis.

The gopis described as “svarupa sakti tattva” have been explained by Srila Prabhupada earlier in this post where he describes them as “plenary expansions of Radha” and “womanly froms of Krsna” who are “as good as Krsna himself”. They are not jivas, jivas cannot become them, they are all “womanly froms of Krsna”, they are all God.

As for Sri Radha’s ontological position vis-a-vis Krsna, she is Krsna, as a female, nothing more nothing less. If and when you encounter Sri Sri Radha Krsna in this life you will be dealing with only one person, I guarantee that.

Comment posted by shiva on October 9th, 2007
51 Japa Jim

I don’t think I can keep up with the discussion here very well. These issues have been dealt with by much more qualified persons than myself on other discussion forums. The format of this website is more article oriented and doesn’t lend itself well to detailed debates or discussions. Forum websites serve that purpose much better.

So, I might not be able to reply very regularly or completely to the different points of issue that this discussion is attempting to deal with.

However, with the limited time I have available for this reply, I would like to address a couple of points in the discussion.

Akruranatha says:
“This statement appears to me to be saying that the jiva, by its essential nature, is situated between the material and spiritual potencies. It never at any time becomes the “spiritual potency” or the “material potency”. Whether situated in the spiritual world or the material world, it always remains “marginal potency,” by its very nature. Therefore, it has a relationship with both the material and spiritual world.”

I cannot agree with that assessment.

I do not accept that internal devotees, the parishads of Krishna in Vrindavan are marginal potency by the definition Mahaprabhu gave to Srila Rupa Goswami.
I don’t agree as you say that the “essential nature” of the jiva is tatastha shakti.
Srila Prabhupada has written that the jiva is by quality internal potency.
I already submitted that quote, but I think you have passed over it without giving due attention to the quote.

Here it is again:
“Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 2.96 purport.

Quote:
“These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency.”

The “essential nature” of the jiva is that of being internal energy of Krishna.
The marginal condition of the jiva is due to being situated in a position between the material and spiritual energies.
The liberated devotees of Goloka are not situated between the two energies as the conditioned jivas of the material world are.
They are totally and absolutely isolated from the material energy because of being fully integrated into the internal plane of Goloka.
They are not marginal jivas.
They are internal jivas in the same broader category as the shaktis.
Jivas are living beings. Shaktis serve with love and devotion.
If the jiva comes to serve Krishna with love and devotion, then the jiva is within the category of the shaktis in quality but not in quantity.

Marginal does not describe the internal devotees of Krishna.
It describes conditioned jivas that are stuck between the material and spiritual energies.

Mahaprabhu teaches:
“You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”

So, it is quite clear than marginal potency refers to jivas that are in between the material and spiritual energies.
The liberated parishads of Krishna in Goloka are not in between.
They are securely situated in the internal energy of devotional service.

So, I think we should know the difference between a marginal jiva and a liberated jiva situated in the internal energy of which the jiva is by nature the same as in quality.

If we accept the definition of “tatastha-shakti” as given by Mahaprabhu, then we cannot apply that same designation to the internal devotees of the totally and absolutely internal realm of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

So, anyway, Akruranatha is asking me for exact and specific quotes for everything I say.
But, I see him offering his views and opinions without exacting shastric reference, so there is no way to discuss things properly with a double standard as this.

I offer quotes and he replies with opinions and paraphrase.
This kind of discussion is a one way street.

Here is his opinionated response to my shastric references.

“This statement appears to me to be saying that the jiva, by its essential nature, is situated between the material and spiritual potencies. It never at any time becomes the “spiritual potency” or the “material potency”. Whether situated in the spiritual world or the material world, it always remains “marginal potency,” by its very nature. Therefore, it has a relationship with both the material and spiritual world.”

May I ask for shastra to support your opinions that the “essential nature of the jiva is to be marginal potency”.
I thought the essential nature of the jiva was love of Krishna?
What is marginal about that?

Can you show shastric support to prove that liberated devotees of Goloka are marginal jivas?
I would love to see it.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 10th, 2007
52 Akruranatha

I fear I may be writing too much. :-)

I can see how many devotees could see this discussion as just “theoretical theology” and not very relevant to their practical application of sadhana bhakti. However, in the interest of discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books “threadbare” and from all angles, please forgive my over-talkativeness.

I honestly think we are at least clarifying our positions and gradually making progress to where we all might agree. (Am I being too optimistic and naive? I tend to have an optimistic, naive nature, or so they tell me.)

It seems to me that Bhakta Rod agrees that the jiva remains always marginal. He says:

“comment - It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism.”

I agree too. Bhakta Rod also realizes that the argument that marginal jivas become plenary potencies when they go back to Godhead would undermine Srila Prabhupada’s statement that they can always fall down if they misuse their independence.

It does seem (please correct me if I am wrong) that Japa Jim and Gauragopal are advancing the opposite proposition that, once the jiva becomes liberated and goes to Vaikuntha or Krishnaloka, it is no longer “marginal”, “minute quantity”, or “fragmental.” Bhakta Rod does not go along with that. I agree with Bhakta Rod on this.

Bhakta Rod still says that “tatastha shakti” has to refer to a dividing line situated between the spiritual and material worlds from which the marginal jiva may go into the spiritual or material world. His argument is based on the meaning of the phrase “tatastha” (literally, “situated on a borderline”).

I would respond that in this context “situated on a border” can (and does) mean the same thing as “marginal”. That is how Srila Prabhupada used it: “tatastha shakti” and “marginal potency” seem to be interchangable and completely synonomous throughout Srila Prabhupada’s writings.

Gauragopala provides an unattributed quotation in which “tatastha” is used in the way Bhakta Rod uses it, as a place in which a jiva may temporarily be before moving into the spiritual or material world:

“The jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world (tatastha)”.

[Can anyone *please* tell me where this quote comes from? It seems to be at the root of some of the confusion]

It seems clear, however, that wherever the above quotation is from, it is not from Srila Prabhupada and does not comport with the way Srila Prabhupada uses the phrase “tatastha shakti.”

Bhakta Rod says that my discussion of the 64 qualities of Krishna — and how jivas may display the first 50 qualities in minute quantity if they are pure devotees, Shiva and Brahma may display 5 additional of Krishna’s qualities (up to 55), and Narayana can display 5 more still (up to 60 of Krishna’s 64 qualities) — was misleading in that it seems to suggest that Lord Siva and Lord Narayana are jivas.

I did not mean to suggest that. On the contrary, if jivas can only display 50 or 55 qualities, and Lord Narayana can display 60 of Krishna’s qualities, it implies the opposite: i.e., that Lord Narayana is *not* a jiva. Otherwise He could not display up to 60 qualities.

Besides, it is not me who is saying these things, it is Nectar of Devotion (see Chapters 21 and 22, in which all 64 qualities of Lord Krishna are explained.) Actually reading through Chapter 25 in NOD is nice and continues on this theme.

Anyway, I basically agree with Bhakta Rod that the jivas (like Narada Muni and Srivas Thakur) will always remain jivas, the laksmis and other consorts will remain “counter wholes” of the Lord’s various plenary expansions, and the plenary expansions themselves always remain Vishnu-tattva.

I agree with Shiva’s point (which raised some eyebrows) that in Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta the consorts or personified shaktis themselves (sometimes known as “shakti tattva”) are the female counterparts of the Lord’s plenary expansions and are not fragmental or “minute” like the jivas.

I *think* we are making some progress….

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 10th, 2007
53 Gauragopala dasa

Akruranatha made the comment i.e. ‘Gauragopala is advancing the opposite proposition that, once the jiva becomes liberated and goes to Vaikuntha or Krishnaloka, it is no longer “marginal”, “minute quantity”, or “fragmental’.

This comment is incorrect if one reads my post, I said -

“It is therefore very clear that original and perpetually the marginal living entity is NOT tatastha (borderline) because ALL marginal living entities are perpetually established as their nitya-siddha bodily foundation in Goloka and remains that way without beginning or end.”

I also agree with Bhakta Rod - ‘It must be pointed out clearly that the living entity is always marginal because of the ability to stay in Goloka or go to the mahat-tattva. Marginal also means the ability to choose as Srila Prabhupada explains. Also jiva-tattva can never become Vishnu tattva, such an idea is impersonalism’.

I also like to point out that marginal can be used in different ways. When Srila Prabhupada referred to marginal living entities in Goloka, he meant they had the ability to use their free will and choose serving Krishna, or do their own thing with in the material creation.

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.”

If that choice and free will to choose did not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha, then we would be no better than assimilated androids. Free will is there is the constitutional make up of all marginal living entities in Goloka so they can use their own individuality, identity and personality to express a personal service to Krishna, or, if they choose, they can mise use it and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva and forget Krishna and the svarupa body they serve Krishna as.

Prabhupada: They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) emphases

The other use of the word marginal is a totally different context, the word marginal can also mean borderline or tatastha but this is a different use of the word when referring the freewill and the ability to choose.

The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

All glorious to Prabhupada Your fallen servant Gaura gopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 10th, 2007
54 Unregistered

Akruranatha description of the word tatastha-sakti or jiva tatastha I also cannot accept. The fact is the nitya-siddhas can never fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha because it is an eternal place; therefore they are not jiva tatastha.

Where my understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings differs from many on this forum is I firmly believe he meant ALL marginal living entities are originally and continuously nitya-siddha. Therefore I believe the mahat-tattva and the impersonal Brahmajyoti is a place where ones non-Krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desires go.

It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Akruranatha also quotes Srila Prabhupada

“The living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord — eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, snatanah.” B.G. 15.7

Why is it that that many view the terminology ‘fragmented parts and parcels’ as individual sparks, rays or atoms in some impersonal effulgence?

The fact is such terminologies are only analogies.

Krishna’s Personal Bodily Form is not that of a blazing Sun and the marginal living entities in their original constitutional position are not atoms, rays or sparks of a sun. Just as Krishna is an eternal Person with bodily form, so are all His marginal servants in their full constitution

Sri Isopanishad Text 16 “The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun’s rays are innumerable. The sun’s rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun. Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Vrndavana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, resides the eternal Lord, as verified by Brahma-samhita:

cintamani-prakara-sadmasu kalpa-vrksa-
laksavrtesu surabhir abhipalayantam
laksmi-sahasra-sata-sambhrama-sevyamanam
govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending the cows, fulfilling all desires in abodes filled with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of wish-fulfilling trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Laksmis, or goddesses of fortune.” (Bs. 5.29)

So if one’s perpetual ‘svarupa’ body cannot fall from an eternal imperishable, never decaying atmosphere, how does the marginal living entity supposedly full down or dream and think they have fallen?

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srila Prabhupada Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Comment - Maha-Vishnu, the creator of the Mahat-tattva, is an incarnation of Sankarshana or Balarama, He becomes situated in the heart and accompanies the marginal living entities in their secondary conscious (jiva-shakti) feature as Supersoul and escorts the living entities derivative dreaming conscious condition to within His material world or the mahat-tattva dreams. All these jivas (NITYA-BADDHAS) coming THROUGH or via Maha-Vishnu, are actually only the inferior DREAMING conscious characteristic of the marginal living entity known as the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, Purport to SB. 4.29.83

The first and foremost features of the marginal living entities full individual bodily identity is ones indisputable nitya-siddha-svarupa identity and body which is the uninterrupted and the innovative legitimate Krishna Conscious state of the living entity. In this way the word jiva or jiva tatastha does not refer to ones perpetual nitya-siddha body in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

What all the Vedic scriptures call jiva tatastha is really the nitya-baddha lower conscious condition of the marginal living entity and is disposed to Maha-Vishnu dreaming mahat-tattva creation. This less significant non Krishna conscious characteristic of the marginal living entity can manifest as a dreaming phenomenon due to the free will each marginal living entity is provided with by the Supreme Lord Krishna. They can therefore choose to remain serving Krishna as their unending nitya-siddha-svarupa body founded in and eternal present in an atmosphere beyond mundane time and space, or they can take shelter of their inferior temporary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

“This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 10th, 2007
55 Unregistered

A few more points in response to Akruranatha posts

“The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized
TEXT 28 purport

What is the real source of dreaming?

Even though the marginal living entities may choose to leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is only a sub-conscious ‘dreaming’ departure like in a mirage; their unadulterated ceaseless svarupa body will always remain eternal founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

In this way their non Krishna conscious desires, thoughts and dreams can find shelter and an avenue for expression within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu that are real but only a temporary manifestation, WHICH IS His maha-tattva creation. From there the dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness can further devolve to the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that exists outside His dreaming mahat-tattva creation.

Until the marginal living entity chooses to re-establish and again wake up from their nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness to achieve the shelter of the of their own continuous svarupa body that is ceaselessly serving Krishna unconditionally, they are prone to be defeated again and again by Maya.

The unlimited number of conditioned nitya-baddha’s (JIVAS) being defeated by Maya remain under the influence of Her three modes within the three world of the mahat-tattva. Therefore the principle is that only the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness manifests as the jiva tatastha and not ones eternal svarupa body.

The atomic conscious nitya-baddha secondary feature of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) that can only manifest outside the realm of Goloka, come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance and enter within His maha-tattva creation. Being in propinquity to Maya, these jivas, or the dreaming inferior nitya-baddha feature of the marginal living entity, see the effervescent variegatedness of the mahat-tattva. They have all the characteristics of the selfish forgetful secondary dreaming state of the marginal living entity which is self interested sensual gratification and to constantly deny Krishna to be the Supreme Lord and cause of all causes. Therefore because of their minute nature they may sometimes glance slightly towards the spiritual creation where the full eternal potential of their marginal identity eternally exists as nitya-siddha svarupa, and sometimes towards the material creation where they can possess ethereal and biological containers or vessels. In this way the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness is also known as jiva-tatastha that is only relevant OUTSIDE of Goloka and Vaikuntha. In this way they take shelter of ethereal and biological impermanent vessels that are the decorative ornaments of the mahat-tattva.

The lowly nitya-baddha state the consciousness (jiva) is weak, because he has been separated from his authentic constitutional body for so long in Goloka that he has not yet recognized the know-how or ability to re-establish, or again reconnect to his legitimate spiritual svarupa Krishna Conscious bodily identity.

Out of these unlimited nitya-baddhas or jivas, the ones who desire to enjoy Maya remain eternally bound by Maya because of being attached to sense enjoyment they seek after within the ethereal and biological vessels they possess. Those who engage in pure selfless unconditional devotional service to the Lord reawaken gradually to their eternal nitya-siddha body whom they really are and have always have been. In this way one eventually goes back home back to Godhead as their nitya-baddha ‘jiva’ identity dissipates as the sun disperses darkness.

The Sanskrit word Svarupa is explained by Srila Prabhupada - “Svarupa, or “one’s own form.” Purport Bhagavad-Gita as it is 4.6

The word svarūpa-sthah is also very significant. The real identity of the individual soul lies in understanding or attaining the knowledge that he is eternally a servant of Krishna.

This understanding is called svarūp opalabdhi. By culturing devotional service, the devotee gradually comes to understand his actual relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This understanding of one’s pure spiritual position is called svarūpopalabdhi, and when one attains that stage he can understand how he is related with the Supreme Personality of Godhead as a servant or friend or as a parent or conjugal lover. This stage of understanding is called svarūpa-sthah. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.23.18

svarūpa-sthah means being situated in one’s constitutional position

svarūpa — original form Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 2.6

And what is that form?

“But with the eyes of love of Godhead one can see its real identity (svarūpa-prakāśa — manifestation of identity) as the place where Lord Krishna performs His pastimes with the cowherd boys and cowherd girls.Śrī Caitanya Caritāmrita Ādi 5.21

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 10th, 2007
56 Akruranatha

Japa Jim:

Please forgive me for any offenses. If I have applied a “double standard”, I apologize. I have many shortcomings and I am sure we all have limited time to keep up with these discussions.

Please believe me when I say, I am not trying to “defeat” anyone or “win” anything. I just like to talk about Srila Prabhupada’s books. There are many statements in Srila Prabhupada’s books that may seem ambiguous or even contradictory at first. I hope that in a spirit of friendship we can all discuss these things patiently until they become clearer to all of us.

I do cautiously venture to say at this point that things are becoming clearer. Gauragopal and Bhakta Rod and Shiva and I seem to be in general agreement that the marginal living entity (jiva) remains marginal (in the sense of having minute independence which always *can* be misused), even in Goloka.

You are emphasising that the “essential nature” of the jiva is love of Krishna, that it is one in quality with the spiritual potency. I agree.

The point I was emphasising is that there remains what Srila Prabhupada describes as a difference in *quantity*. That difference in quantity exists as part of what the jiva is, eternally.

Now, there are other associates of Krishna who are His fully independent plenary expansions. They do not have that difference in quantity. They never become jiva-tattva, and the jivas never become vishnu tattva.

Shiva has very expertly explained, with scriptural evidences, that Krishna’s “svarupa shakti tattva” (represented by Sri Gadadhara Pandit in the Panca Tattva) is on an equal level with Krishna. These goddesses, Srimati Radharani and her plenary expansions, are the other halves of Krishna’s body and are part of the same Divine Couple.

Jivas are different, inconceivably simultaneously one and different. They are not God and never become God at any time. They may become “one” with God in the sense that they are, as you say, “fully integrated” into His spiritual realm, like a green bird flying into a green tree. However, they always remain God’s minute, fragmental parts.

It is in that sense that they always remain situated between the material and spiritual worlds. Shiva has given some nice quotations in his most recent post. (If we stop arguing with Shiva we can learn a lot from him.)

It is not that their *consciousness* is always merged in impersonal liberation which is at the border of the spiritual and material world. Obviously not. That is not what we mean when we describe them as “tatastha shakti”.

However, because of their minute *quantitative* nature, they always have the choice of foolishly trying to assert their independence from Krishna. Thus they are said to have “marginal independence”, as opposed to Radha-Krishna’s “full independence”.

Do we all at least agree on that much?

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 10th, 2007
57 Akruranatha

“The living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord — eternally. It is not that he assumes individuality in his conditional life and in his liberated state becomes one with the Supreme Lord. He is eternally fragmented. It is clearly said, sanatanah.”

To be fair, Japa Jim, don’t you agree that the above quotation from the B.G. 15.7 Purport is clear and unambiguous and speaks directly to the point?

At least I would expect we can all agree that the living entity is the fragmental part of the Supreme Lord, eternally, and even in the liberated state remains eternally fragmented. To say otherwise would directly contradict the above authoritative statement.

Bhakta Rod, you are now saying we cannot fall down because it is only a dream? That’s okay, but that dreaming is what we mean by fall down.

It is not a “merrily merrily life is but a dream. . . ” It is very serious, most imperative. I am “dreaming”, you are “dreaming”. We have to be very afraid of this “dreaming.” We have to wake up. It is easier said than done. We cannot simply wish away the horrors of material existence by knowing theoretically that liberated souls see it as a dream.

The Mayavadis always make that mistake. Their philosophy is that, because God is absolute and all pervading and unchanging, all varieties are simply “false”, “illusion”, “maya”. They say, “This is maya, that is maya, only God is real, so it does not matter what we do in this maya ‘play’.” (At least some very foolish mayavadis say like that, which matches very well the description of the demoniac nature in the 16th Chapter of the Bhagavad Gita. They say the world is a dream but they are very expert in enjoying this dream. They say it is “lila”, but Srila Prabhupada says “lila” is enjoyable, whereas the material existence of the conditioned soul is full of misery and cannot be his “lila”.)

Of course, none of us here are mayavadis. We do not say the world is “unreal”, “maya”. The variegated experiences and multifarious objects in the world are transformations of the Lord’s multifarious energies. What is unreal about it is we are thinking it is for our enjoyment, when it is really for our use in Krishna’s devotional service.

We can say the material sojourn is like a dream, but when it comes down to it and we are threatened with impending misery — which, let’s face it, is the kind of dream it is (a very miserable one) — then we take it very seriously. Therefore, it is very important that we think and speak and act correctly in relation to this “dream”, according to God’s commands, so we can wake up, or at least be spared the most terrible nightmare.

Anyway, the marginal potency, minute, fragmental living entities (jivas) are always capable of the misuse of independence that causes this horrible dream. I thought we were in agreement on that, but now I detect Bhakta Rod may be backing away again.

Calling us “fragmental” may be a metaphor or “analogy”, as Bhakta Rod suggests. I don’t know. I never heard Srila Prabhupada say it is an “analogy”, but he does say it is not like a material fragment, so it is at least a different kind of “fragment”.

However, whether it is an analogy or not, it is our philosophy, *our* analogy, if you will. It is the description our acaryas always use and the description we should use when representing our acaryas.

We should fully understand what it means, agreed. We are not just parrots who repeat without understanding. But we should not go off inventing a new philosophy that is not approved by our acaryas on the plea that their “analogies” are mere “analogies”. We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas.

Intelligent people like to stretch their understanding and try out new concepts. We are all intelligent here. Fine. Just please let us make sure we do not stray away from Srila Prabhupada’s simple and direct instructions. We should not become “over intelligent”.

If Srila Prabhupada says the living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally, even while in the liberated condition, how can we deny it?

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 10th, 2007
58 Unregistered

Akruranatha makes the comment ‘If Srila Prabhupada says the living entity is the fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, eternally, even while in the liberated condition, how can we deny it? We are not just parrots who repeat without understanding. But we should not go off inventing a new philosophy that is not approved by our acaryas on the plea that their “analogies” are mere “analogies”. We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas.

Comment - I agree with Akruranatha prabhu. So what is the original position of the marginal living entities? Is it atoms, sparks or molecules shaped entities? Or is the original appearance of all living entities perpetually sat-cit-ananda-vigraha?

Akruranatha - ‘We should accept and embrace the descriptions of our acaryas’.

“This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. - ‘Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972

Sri Isopanishad Text 16 “The sun and its rays are one and the same qualitatively. Similarly, the Lord and the living entities are one and the same in quality. The sun is one, but the molecules of the sun’s rays are innumerable.

Comment - By this description we may believe that the marginal living entities are like molecules in the sun rays

Sri Isopanishad Text 16 ‘The sun’s rays constitute part of the sun, and the sun and its rays conjointly constitute the complete sun’.

comment - Here again we may think that we are originally atoms, molecules or rays in our original position, so many teach this as the unembellished meaning. This is because we foolishly take such analogies literally. Yes the Vedas describe the sun as the energetic and the rays are the expelled as energy that emanates from the sun as atoms, but how does shastra explain what that really means?

Now, the following is the full revelation or explanation of this text that tells us such descriptions ARE only ANOLOGIES.

Sri Isopanishad Text 16. ‘Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka-Vrndavana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating,

Goloka-Vrndavana, (compared to the sun) is really Krishna’s personal abode of unlimited active bodily pastimes

The brahmajyoti effulgence is compared to atoms, rays, molecules sparks but is really the Vaikuntha planets and all the inhabitants as their svarupa bodily identities who reside their eternally as servants of the supreme lord.

This is backed up as follows -

‘However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

This is verified by Brahma-samhita:

“I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, the first progenitor, who is tending the cows, fulfilling all desires in abodes filled with spiritual gems, surrounded by millions of wish-fulfilling trees, always served with great reverence and affection by hundreds of thousands of Laksmis, or goddesses of fortune.” (Bs. 5.29)

Comment - So many scriptures confirm that in our original condition, we are not some rays or atoms in an impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. in our original perpetual position we are eternal servants of Krishna. The Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky in its full potential is ALL personally devotionally active - sat, cit ananda vigraha.

The Impersonal feature is only found outside of the Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha Spiritual sky or brahmajyoti and is the creation of the marginal living entity in their secondary dreaming state. The mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspects of the Brahmajyoti is the creation of the rebellious marginal living entities in their nitya-baddha consciousness, facilitated and governed totally by Maha-Vishnu. Everything can only happen under the Lords plan whether in the Vaikuntha’s or dreaming outside the Vaikuntha’s.

“The conception of God indicates the controller, whereas the conception of the Absolute Truth indicates the summum bonum or the ultimate source of all energies. There is no difference of opinion about the personal feature of God as the controller because a controller cannot be impersonal’. Srimad-Bhagavatam – Canto One preface.

Comment - The fall down (choosing to forgetting Krishna) state is NOT a bodily plunge from Goloka or Vaikuntha, it is a conscious descend downwards to the lower self or unconscious dream setting where one’s ‘thoughts’ enters and creates the holographic dimension of the material delusional universe, such creations, that are real but perishable, are not factually created by the nitya-baddha consciousness, even though one may think they are creating such facilitates. In actual fact, all the dreams, thoughts and desires of the transmitted secondary self are built into a secondary reality within the mahat-tattva by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu who knows the past, present and future.

Due to the nature of eternal time and the permanence of the Spiritual universe or Personal Brahman or Brahmajyoti, past, present, future, space and time that can only exist within the mahat-tattva cloud within the Spiritual Sky, are amalgamated as an everlasting event with no beginning or no end. Everything in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha eternally happens in the present. This confirms that ones original nitya-siddha-svarupa body is always PRESENT in Goloka-Vrndavana, even if one is sub-consciously off somewhere else in some imaginary dream.
That dream world or the non-Krishna conscious mahat-tattva is the material universe and comes under the phenomena of past, present, future, time, space, ethereal vessel, biological vessels, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age, and death - all things that do not exist in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

This clearly means all of us have an eternal individual vigraha form and rasa relationships that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we may be consciously unaware of this everlasting fact of creation due to our selfishness and egocentricity that create our independent dreaming secondary consciousness, that is transferred to the material universe, as a forgetful condition in an impermanent existence.

‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

comment - Just as a dream is merely a creation of one’s intelligence but has no actual substance, similarly, material lamentation, illusion, happiness, distress and the acceptance of the material body under the influence of Maya are all creations Maha-Vishnu’s illusory energy. In other words, material existence has no essential reality because of its temporary nature.

“When one is Krishna conscious, he can realize that material existence, whether one is awake or dreaming, is nothing but a dream and has no factual value.” S.B. 7.7.27

Comment - In the same way, a self-realized soul is completely detached from the material body and the material world around it. He is like a person who has awakened and arisen from a dream. With expert vision sharpened by detachment, the self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces through knowledge of the self and completely withdraws his consciousness from the expansion of material variety and engages fully in the service of Krishna and eventually re-establishes his original svarupa identity in Goloka.

“The material body has no factual existence in relation to the eternal soul. It is something like a dream. In a dream we may think of flying in the sky, or sitting on a chariot as a king, but when we wake up we can see that we are neither in the sky nor seated on the chariot ” - Contents of the Gita Summarized text 28 purport

Comment - The material world is only temporarily “real” because is constantly decaying. After Maha-Vishnu withdraws the Mahat-tattva back into His dreaming Body, the material world is no longer real. Because reality is ultimately defined as something that is eternal and unbroken, the material world does not really qualify as reality in the absolute sense because of its temporary nature. So, no, the material world is not real. It is an illusion. Nonetheless, an illusion can cause many pains and pleasures, much like we experience while we are dreaming in our sleep. The marginal living entities in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness are in the sleeping condition within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in His Mahat-tattva creation under the spell of His wife Maya and foolishly think that the material world is real, yet in truth it is not real. It is just like a dream. It appears to be real, but actually it is an illusion. It is a real illusion’.

Srila Prabhupada also says we must be careful how we understand this concept of dreaming.

“Just as in a dream we may create so many things which actually have no existence, so when we are awake we shall see that everything is simply a dream. But factually, although the demons say that life is a dream, they are very expert in enjoying this dream”. Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 16.8

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 11th, 2007
59 Unregistered

Akruranatha says - ‘Bhakta Rod, you are now saying we cannot fall down because it is only a dream? That’s okay, but that dreaming is what we mean by fall down.

It is not a “merrily merrily life is but a dream. . . ” It is very serious, most imperative. I am “dreaming”, you are “dreaming”. We have to be very afraid of this “dreaming.” We have to wake up. It is easier said than done. We cannot simply wish away the horrors of material existence by knowing theoretically that liberated souls see it as a dream.

‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE. The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Actually we are eternal family members of the lord, but due to our misuse of independence we have now forgotten our eternal relationship with Krishna, exactly like a man who is mad forgets his family relationship and loiters in the street. But when he is again in his normal mental condition, he remembers his family members and goes back to them. Similarly this Krishna Consciousness Movement is a treatment for reviving the memory that we all belong to Krishna’s family. 69-06-07. Prabhupada Letter: Uttamasloka

“Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have FORGOTTEN OUR ETERNAL RELATIONSHIP with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called SVARUPA. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE THAT SVARUPA, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’ Bg Introduction

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 11th, 2007
60 Unregistered

Bhakta Rod you keep quoting the same few statements about the material world or material existence being a dream from Srila Prabhupada over and over as if these few statements legitimize the rest of your theological speculations. One of your many mistakes is taking those statements about the dream like quality of material existence too literally. The material world is not a dream, we are not dreaming that we are in the material world, we are not dreaming that we left Vaikuntha.

The material world and material consciousness is dreamlike, but it is not an actual dream. The metaphor of a dream is used because a dream is temporary and the dreamer has limited mental acuity in the dream e.g. the dreamer doesn’t know that he is in a dream, (lucid dreaming notwithstanding) his mental awareness of the nature of the reality of the dreamscape he is in is limited to varying degrees. The main points in the metaphor is that the person in the dream doesn’t understand reality for what it really is and that eventually he will wake up and live in a more permanent reality. So a person in material consciousness living in the material world is not really “dreaming that he has left Vaikuntha but in reality is living in Vaikuntha” while his “nitya baddha consciousness” dreams it lives in the material world. Those ideas are simply your speculative extrapolations from your misunderstanding of various things you have read.

When it is described that Maha Visnu is dreaming the material world we shouldn’t take that analogy of a dream too literally. It’s really not a dream in the sense of what we experience as a dream, it is called yoga-nidra, a relaxing trance like condition. The metaphor is meant to convey that Visnu’s work in creating and maintaining the material world is not causing any difficulty for Him, it is no problem, there is no terrible exertion which strains God in the work of creating and maintaining the material world. In fact it is so easy that it is described as being done in a state of yoga-nidra, a restful mystic trance like condition. These teachings are simply meant to convey the ease of creating and maintaining the the material world. They are not meant to create a theological conception where we think we live in an actual dream. That is in fact what the mayavadis teach. They teach that the fallen souls under the grip of maya are simply dreaming that they are different from Brahman and that therefore this world is a dream of Brahman and has no actual reality. Jiva Goswami goes into refuting this dream ontology deeply in his Paramatma Sandarbha.

You tend to quote bits and pieces of things Srila Prabhupada has written or said taken out of the context they were written in to prove your various points. When it is said that we never left Vaikuntha but only dream we do, this is a metaphor, not meant to be taken literally. The idea is that anywhere can be Vaikuntha for the person who is Krsna conscious.

Srimad Bhagavatam, 4.9.7

My Lord, You are the supreme one, but by Your different energies You appear differently in the spiritual and material worlds. You create the total energy of the material world by Your external potency, and after creation You enter within the material world as the Supersoul. You are the Supreme Person, and through the temporary modes of material nature You create varieties of manifestation, just as fire, entering into wood of different shapes, burns brilliantly in different varieties.

Purport

Dhruva Maharaja realized that the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, acts through His different energies, not that He becomes void or impersonal and thus becomes all-pervading. The Mayavadi philosopher thinks that the Absolute Truth, being spread throughout the cosmic manifestation, has no personal form. But here Dhruva Maharaja, upon realization of the Vedic conclusion, says, “You are spread all over the cosmic manifestation by Your energy.” This energy is basically spiritual, but because it acts in the material world temporarily, it is called maya, or illusory energy. In other words, for everyone but the devotees the Lord’s energy acts as external energy. Dhruva Maharaja could understand this fact very nicely, and he could understand also that the energy and the energetic are one and the same. The energy cannot be separated from the energetic

There are countless verses and place where we are told by guru, sadhu, and sastra, that the jivas in the material world are not in Vaikuntha, so any other statements which contradict that basic idea have to be taken as having metaphoric intent.

Comment posted by shiva on October 11th, 2007
61 Akruranatha

Bhakta Rod says:

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact.”

That could be one answer. It is a highly theoretical answer, not necessarily suited for every time and place.

When I was small my older brother would sometimes torture me (as sadistic older brothers sometimes do). While he was twisting my arm (or whatever), and I protested, he would tell me, “It doesn’t really hurt. You only THINK it hurts.” Of course, he was saying this just to further humiliate and annoy me, and it had that desired effect.

If someone asks, “When did we come in contact with the material nature?”, we probably already told him that he was suffering due to contact with material nature. [It is a pretty well-informed question.]

After all, we do tell people they are undergoing samsara due to contact with material nature (e.g., purusah prakrti-stho hi bhunkte prakrti-jan gunan karanam guna-sango ’sya sad-asad-yoni-janmasu, B.G. 13.22)

[”Situated in material nature, the living entity certainly is experiencing the effects born of material nature; because of his association with the modes of nature he undergoes good and bad experiences taking birth in different species.”]

To then respond, “Actually you are NOT in contact with material nature” will not be appropriate for every occasion. It might sound like we are contradicting ourselves, like we are endorsing the idea that we can just “wish away” our predicament, or worse, that we are like the asuras and mayavadi cheaters who say, “nothing is real so we can act whimsically”.*

More often I would respond to such a question with something like, “We have been in contact with material nature from time immemorial. It is due only to our foolish, rebellious desire to enjoy separately from the Lord’s devotional service. Thus we are said to be “nitya-baddha”, meaning “eternally conditioned.”

That is also an appropriate answer that may be given on occasion. Don’t you agree?

The details of exactly how or by what process or when we came into contact with material nature is something Srila Prabhupada has repeatedly asked us not to argue or concern ourselves about. We have been “dreaming” since before the creation, since time immemorial, before time began. The important thing is to wake up from the dream by surrendering to Krishna.

It is easier said than done. It may be “simple for the simple”, but most of us have a lot of dirty things to clear away from our hearts before we can chant with real feeling.

*[Who was that Persian guerilla from the time of Omar Khayyam (13th C.?), who founded the hashish-using sect from which we get the English word “assasin”? His motto, inscribed on his tomb, was “Nothing is real, all is permitted” (or something like that). The phrase was picked up by modern Satanists such as Crowley. I am not sure what they mean by it, but it sounds pretty demonic.

Our idea is that, “Of the real there is no cessation and of the nonexistent there is no endurance” (B.G. 2.16) However, though the material body is perishable, we must do our God-given duty without fail, and avoid any actions which are not permitted. Knowing material pleasure and pain to be temporary, we should tolerate whatever difficulties arise in the performance of our duty, and avoid indulgence in forbidded sense enjoyment. Our primary duty is to always chant Hare Krishna.]

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 11th, 2007
62 Akruranatha

I have no problem with Bhakta Rod’s basic premise that the jiva’s “original” form is his siddha-svarupa, siddha deha, a form with limbs and senses and transcendental activities in the spiritual world.

The thing I find strange is that some of the contributers here have a whole complicated philosophy that apparently leads them to conclude that those situated in their spiritual bodies are no longer jivas, no longer Krishna’s parts and parcels, no longer marginal or “tatastha” potency.

I think mostly it is a disagreement about terminology only. All of us are devotees. No one seriously thinks that when a jiva attains perfection he becomes the Supreme Lord, the supreme enjoyer, Vishnu tattva. (Right?)

I think also that we are a little challenged in our conversation because we are striving for “victory” over opposing views to a certain extent and thus we are not as charitable to each other as we might be, for example, in a friendly, supportive study session.

I will be the first to admit that I am still very addicted to foolishly trying to enjoy this “dream” and thus I have little or no practical realization of what it is like to be situated in the spiritual world in my eternally perfect spiritual body.

Some (non-ISKCON) devotees may well say we have never been to the spiritual world, we originated in the brahmajyoti, our spiritual bodies have never formed yet, etc. Part of their argument is that anyone who goes to the spiritual world never returns.

Such statements do not seem in line with what Srila Prabhupada taught. However, Prabhupada also told us not to argue about such things. Apparently this particular question (about how and when we first became conditioned) is not particularly relevant to helping us make spiritual advancement, and arguing about it just seems to be a waste of time or, worse, a cause for dissention among devotees. I think that is the more impoprtant instruction of Srila Prabhupada about this.

Bhakta Rod wants to solve the conflict by pointing out that we never fell, we are not in contact with material nature, we are eternally situated in our perfected, liberated body in the spiritual world. Even though we *can* return, it is not *really* returning because no one ever leaves anyway. It is a noble effort at least, but I cannot embrace it with his enthusiasm.

Although we may understand theoretically that the spirit-soul is eternally perfect, we also have to acknowledge that our practical experience is that we really are suffering, we really are unsure, afraid, ignorant of our true position. So, even though it seems like a nice, neat solution, Bhakta Rod’s approach to the “jiva fall” controversy neglects reality as experienced by conditioned souls.

Someone could challenge Bhakta Rod, “If you say you and I are really eternally in our svarupa siddhi spiritual bodies, then what specifically is your siddha svarup? What color are you? Are you a boy, girl, cow, tree…what? And what am I?”

Krishna may know, Srila Prabhupada may know, but Bhakta Rod and I do not know (and Srila Prabhupada did not tell us in that kind of specific detail). For now we have to focus on practical service and gradually it will be revealed to us.

So, if someone challenged us like that, we would be defeated and would not be representing Srila Prabhupada well.

One related point: Srila Prabhupada’s mood was definitely not to encourage us to withdraw from the world and philosophize or meditate in a solitary place. He demanded that we serve the preaching mission with our body, mind and words. We should learn Srila Prabhupada’s books together in the spirit of being able to engage in spreading the “gospel” of Lord Caitanya everywhere. To become fully absorbed in such work is “practical samadhi” or, in other words, “Work now, samadhi later.”

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 12th, 2007
63 Unregistered

Shiva says - The material world and material consciousness is dreamlike, but it is not an actual dream. The metaphor of a dream is used because a dream is temporary and the dreamer has limited mental acuity in the dream e.g. the dreamer doesn’t know that he is in a dream, (lucid dreaming notwithstanding) his mental awareness of the nature of the reality of the dreamscape he is in is limited to varying degrees. The main points in the metaphor is that the person in the dream doesn’t understand reality for what it really is and that eventually he will wake up and live in a more permanent reality. So a person in material consciousness living in the material world is not really “dreaming that he has left Vaikuntha but in reality is living in Vaikuntha” while his “nitya baddha consciousness” dreams it lives in the material world. Those ideas are simply your speculative extrapolations from your misunderstanding of various things you have read”.

Comment - Unfortunately your understanding of shastra is incomplete and mostly immature; there are many, many quotes from Srila Prabhupada that have been used on this thread that clearly proves our existence in the mahat-tattva is simply the dream of the soul. This is no metaphor or mental speculation, it is a fact.

The truth is, you and no one else can refute what Srila Prabhupada has said. And that is, the material world is not only the dream of Maha-Vishnu, but also the dream of the marginal living entity.

Therefore shastric conclusion is that the dreaming of the marginal living entities becomes evident when they misuses their free will and choose to ignore Krishna AND THE NITYA-SIDDHA BODY THEY SERVE Krishna as. This is how one can only fall down, therefore dreaming within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu is NOT A MTEPHOR, it is a temporary reality.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga
Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal nitya-siddha body ALWAYS remains in Goloka.

Therefore, unlike the misunderstanding some pandits have, some of them even Guru’s, caste Brahmanas and Swamis of Indian origin, who foolishly take words literately and claim the original state of the marginal living entity is like atoms, molecules and sparks in some impersonal effulgence, the fact is, such terminologies ARE METORPHORS because originally we are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna.

Therefore the nitya-siddha body that is the full expression and potentail of EVERY marginal living entity, can never fall down and therefore they are not originally jiva-tatastha.

“Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, 18, 1977

Jappa Jim was right in this assessment however, where he has misunderstood shastra is WE ARE ALL NITYA-SIDDHA and the so called fall down by some marginal living entities (25%) is only in a dreaming state, that state of dreaming is called the nitya-baddha consciousness, we therefore agree on at least one thing and that is nitya-siddhas can never fall down from their perpetual svarupa body.

‘We are right now with Krishna, for Krishna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth’ Ravindra Svarupa dasa web site

Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in Krishna’s/Gods creation and how each marginal living entity has a two fold reality, one permanent (nitya-siddha) and one impermanent and illusionary (nitya-baddha) that is like the dreams one has at night yet, unlike ones illusionary dreams in a biological body, the ‘dreams’ of the marginal living entity are real but temporary.

“Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become… Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity” April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan

We must understand that the marginal living entities are by constitution internal energy because all ‘life’ can only enter the mahat-tattva and the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti only after one is transferred from the personal Vaikunthas that is also Known as the spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti.

The marginal condition of the living is always known as marginal due to the ability of free will, this is the real meaning of the word marginal, of whom all living entities, Except of course the unlimited numbers of vishnu tattvas (direct expansions of Krishna),are.

Many devotees understand these facts of the Shastra, in fact it is a concern that many cannot correctly understand the teachings of the Vedas that Srila Prabhupada correctly understood. Not even many of his Godbrothers and God nephews precisely understood Vedanta and have irrationally claimed we have originated from the Brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada strongly rejected that nonsense.

‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967).

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 12th, 2007
64 Unregistered

Akruranatha states - Bhakta Rod says: “So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact.”

That could be one answer. It is a highly theoretical answer, not necessarily suited for every time and place.

For starters, I did not say that, Srila Prabhupada did -

‘So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

“Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 12th, 2007
65 Gauragopala dasa

Akruranatha prabhu says - ‘Our idea is …..’ Sounds a bit supercilious to me.

It is not a question of ‘our idea’ but rather what Srila Prabhupada has written and said.

The concept of ‘our ideas’ has no relevant weight. It is Srila Prabhupadas teachings that carry ALL the influence of scriptural meaning.

Bhakta Rod is also quoting many intimate conversations Prabhupada had with the inner circle of devotees that was possibly not for everyone to understand, due to many devotees of the time, as well as the outside human society, only beginning their pathway in Krishna Consciousness. It is therefore obvious some devotees will have a deeper understanding of the real meaning of scripture than others.

Srila Prabhupadas mission is meant to re-awaken and re-establish every living entities ‘old’ or original Krishna Conscious constitutional position back home in Goloka.

All glorious to Srila Prabhupada, Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 12th, 2007
66 Japa Jim

Gauragopala das says:

“The foremost meaning of the word ‘marginal’ is the ability for one to use their free will and choose to remain either Krishna Conscious as their endless Svarupa body in Vaikuntha, or material conscious in counterfeit bodily vessels in the material creation or mahat-tattva.”

That is your definition.
Marginal is the English transliteration of the word “tatastha”

A Vedabase search only produces two results in all of Srila Prabhupada’s books where “tatastha” (marginal) appears in the original text in terms of the jiva.

1.taṭasthā — the marginal potency; CC Madhya 6.160
2.taṭasthā — marginal; CC Madhya 20.108-109

In both cases tatastha is translated as marginal.

It is never stated to mean anything except “marginal”.

Anyone who things that the liberated devotees of Krishna in Gokula are “marginal” has a serious misconception going on.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 12th, 2007
67 Akruranatha

Gauragopala, when I say things like, “our idea”, “our philosophy”, “our conception”, I mean the philosophy that Srila Prabhupada taught and we followers of Srila Prabhupada accept. I hope that is clear.

I have heard such criticism before. Some devotees are bothered by the fact that I say things like, “I think”, “my understanding is”, etc. After all, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada is supposed to know the absolute truth, right? Srila Prabhupada himself was never tentative and never used academic weasel words. He was boldly declaring the truth.

I can appreciate such criticism, but I have found that in discussions among devotees in which there are disagreements about philosophical points, it is better to remain willing to listen and try to appreciate what the other devotees are saying. If we present ourselves as absolute authorities we sometimes unnecessarily disrespect each other over minor misunderstandings. It is nice to sit with a group of devotees and turn and examine Srila Prabhupada’s words from different angles without trying to “defeat” one another.

I also find that, even on book distribution and other dealings with the public, taking a humbler, less “absolute” position often works for me. The fact is I really am not a liberated, fully realized devotee. So, I can repeat what Srila Prabhupada and the scriptures say with confidence, but I can also admit that I do not fully realize everything. People appreciate that. It sells books, so I am sticking to it.

“Supercilious” [literally, “with raised eyebrows”] means snobby, looking down one’s nose, so to speak. I hope I do not come off as snobby. I am really trying to express my respect and friendship for all the devotees. At least if you met me face to face you would find me friendly and humble, I hope.

The “our idea” I specifically described was a direct quote from a well known Bhagavad Gita verse, and the (I hope uncontroversial) point that even though we say the material world is impermanent, we are not like the demons who use “illusion philosophy” to justify atheism and sinful behavior. What could be your problem with that? It must just be my personality you are reacting to.

Bhakta Rod, Srila Prabhupada did not always every question the same way. That is a fact. He wanted us to display a dynamic understanding of the Vaisnava philosophy rather than become overly dependent on rote formulas (although we had to know the formulas by rote, too.)

I do appreciate what you are saying about the spirit soul itself never being contaminated. I have never had a problem with that. That is definitely our philosophy (there I go again, Gauragopal). :-)

Even though in the Gita (7.4) Krishna identifies only eight material elements, elsewhere in Srila Prabhupada’s books some sankhyis add an element called “contaminated consciousness” that is subtler even than false ego.

We know it is not the soul itself that is contaminated. It is the subtle body, which is material, that is actually acting under the modes of nature, and the soul is merely identifying with the material gross and subtle bodies. (Srila Prabhupada sometimes used the analogy of muddy water, that the water is still pure but because it is mixed with particles of earth it appears muddy.)

When the effects of passion and ignorance subside and our intelligence becomes fixed (”sthitha prajna”) then we can start to see clearly. The mud settles in our subtle body and the water becomes clear. Then we can with a joyful mind practice bhakti yoga and gain scientific knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, beyond the modes of material nature. The doubts and misgivings are cut to peices and we can see perfectly well who Krishna is and who we are. (See S.B. 1.2.19-21)

I know this is the process (beginning with hearing Bhagavatam — S.B.1.2.17). I just am not there yet. Not even close. My mirror is still covered with caked on grime. My mudpuddle is dark, opaque brown. :-)

While I do not disagree with Bhakta Rod’s main point that the spirit soul is “originally” an associate of Krishna in the spiritual world, there is a kind of “enthusiasm” about the way it is being expressed here that bothers me.

I apologize, it may be just my own faulty perception, but I feel like there is a kind of an invention of a “new” dogma, a selection of some of Srila Prabhupada’s words to the exclusion of others, an attempt to “convert” the devotees to a particular way of phrasing things and responding to questions, replete with unfamiliar catch phrases such as “the marginal living entities’ secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation)”. Even if the philosophy is correct, the expression of it rubs me the wrong way. It does not “feel” like Srila Prabhupada to me.

But mostly, the problem I have been having is the position that some are taking (Japa Jim most strongly) that the living entity ceases to be a marginal living entity (also known as “tatastha shakti”) when fully liberated. I never heard Srila Prabhupada say that. It sounds like a kevala advaita, “nirvisesa” position.

We (followers of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya) accept that there is always a meaningful distinction to be made between the minute living entity and the Supreme Spirit. Always. That is a cornerstone of Srila Prabhupada’s “gaura vani” preaching. He is delivering us from “nirvisesa”.

Let’s stick to the basics in a spirit of friendship. We are getting unnecessarily hung up on controversies and it does not seem to be that enlightening.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 12th, 2007
68 Unregistered

Bhakta Rod, I don’t have the time right now, but your understanding of vedic philosophy, pertaining to the material world as a dream, is without justification. If you have time read Sri Jiva’s Paramatma Sandarbha where he goes into detail on refuting the “world is a dream” ideology.

Comment posted by shiva on October 12th, 2007
69 Akruranatha

One point about the “life is a dream” idea we were discussing earlier, is that we have to know well to distinguish what is impermanent (“dreamlike”) and what is not impermanent.

Our duty to serve and surrender to Krishna is not impermanent. It is part of what we really are (krsnera nitya das).

We may know that we are brahman, but we also have to know how to *act* as brahman (i.e., in pure devotional service.) Otherwise our knowledge is incomplete, not perfect.

In the second chapter of the Gita, when Krishna begins His instructions (2.11), He tells Arjuna that the wise do not lament for the impermanent body (neither for the living nor the dead).

Many people, when they first read this, imagine that Krishna is excusing all killing and all manner of immoral conduct. Isn’t compassion for the suffering of others important? If we do not lament, doesn’t that make us monsters, sociopaths?

It would be a gross misunderstanding to think Krishna is justifying all killing or immoral conduct. (But monstrous demons do justify their immoral conduct by saying the world is unreal and impermanent and therefore the suffering and death of their enemies does not matter.)

Krishna is saying that those who know the true standard of morality see things from the spiritual platform. Not that *any* killing is justified, but that when righteous duty demands killing, such killing is not cause for lamentation, because the wise fully understand the spirit soul cannot be killed.

Those who see with spiritual vision are equipoised in happiness and distress, they tolerate the impermanent discomforts of life (2.14), and their equanimity makes them eligible for immortal life (2.15), but they are never immoral. They never abandon their true moral duty (of serving Krishna as He desires).

The soul is imperishable (2.17). It also has its imperishable duty in relation to the Supreme Soul.

The most essential duty of the jiva soul is to always think of Krishna, worship Him, pay obeisances to Him, to surrender completely and without reservations to Him and without any ulterior motive, in full loving devotional service. (18.65-66) That is the purport of Bhagavad Gita.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 13th, 2007
70 Akruranatha

“The Mayavadi theory of oneness of the spirit soul cannot be entertained, on the ground that the spirit soul cannot be cut into pieces as a fragmental portion. Such cutting into different individual souls would make the Supreme cleavable or changeable, against the principle of the Supreme Soul’s being unchangeable. As confirmed in the Gita, the fragmental portions of the Supreme exist eternally (sanatana) and are called ksara; that is, they have a tendency to fall down into material nature. These fragmental portions are eternally so, and even after liberation the individual soul remains the same – fragmented. But once liberated, he lives an eternal life in bliss and knowledge with the Personality of Godhead.” (B.G. 2.13 Purport)

Here Srila Prabhupada is very clearly rejecting the idea that the Supreme Lord became divided into fragments and later the fragments will again unite with the Supreme and cease being fragments. The fragments are always fragments. Always have been, always will be.

Now, there is also the statement that every living entity in the spiritual world is “aksara.” (See, B.G. 15.16) This may be what Japa Jim is driving at:

“The living entities are eternally separated parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When they are in contact with the material world they are called jiva-bhuta, and the Sanskrt words given here, ksarah sarvani bhutani, mean that they are fallible. Those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but there is no disunity. They are all agreeable to the purpose of creation.” (B.G. 15.16 Purport)

I have to admit there does appear to be a contradiction here. In the 2.13 Purport, Srila Prabhupada is saying that the fragmental portions, known as “fallible”, are eternally fragmental, even in the liberated condition living in bliss and knowledge with the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

But in the 2.15 Purport Srila Prabhupada is saying that when they are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead they are called “infallible” (“aksara”, which is also in the text of the Gita and of the Vedanta Sutra). It cannot be denied that the liberated jivas are called “aksara”. And yet again, Krishna has His own position beyond both the fallible and infallible. (B.G. 15.17)

However, Srila Prabhupada emphasises: “Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but there is no disunity.” (From the 15.16 Purport)

My limited understanding is that, even though they are called “infallible”, among the liberated individuals who live with the Supreme Lord are still the eternally fragmented jivas who by their very nature must serve the Lord. If they desire to do something else (maybe they won’t desire that, but *if* they do), the Lord gives them the facility by casting them into illusion in which they serve the Lord indirectly, unfavorably, being defeated by His illusory energy. Because of this eternal, fragmental nature, we call them “marginal” energy or “tatastha shakti”.

There are also plenary potencies of the Lord who are not fragmented. They are His feminine counterparts and cannot be subject to His illusory energy. They are on an equal level with the Lord, and are sometimes known as His “svarupa shaktis”.

Now here is an interesting theological question: Why does the Lord bother having fragmented energies? Why can’t He simply enjoy in His unlimited plenary expansions with His unlimited plenary potencies? Why does He have fragmental energies who are capable of turning their back on Him and in so doing undergo a miserable life of torment and evil?

I have to think that His enjoyment is more complete and full when there are jivas involved who have the choice of serving Him in full bliss, or rejecting His service and plunging themselves into impious, dreamlike ignorance.

I am glad to be a jiva with free will. I do not want to be like a stone or a robot. I just need (desperately) to properly use my free will, by chanting Hare Krishna always.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 13th, 2007
71 Unregistered

Shiva says – “Bhakta Rod, I don’t have the time right now, but your understanding of vedic philosophy, pertaining to the material world as a dream, is without justification. If you have time read Sri Jiva’s Paramatma Sandarbha where he goes into detail on refuting the “world is a dream” ideology.

Then I can only humbly say that I only accept Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and translations of all the six Gosvamis.

Srila Prabhupada explains -

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

The affairs of the material world look unreal from the vantage point of the spiritual world:

“Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

“Our present existence, it is also dream, Exactly like we dream at night. In dreaming, we create so many things. So this material world is also a gross dreaming. Gross dreaming. That is subtle dreaming. And this is gross dreaming. That is the action of the mind, body, intelligence, dreaming” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-Gita 2.15

“The action of five material elements: earth, water, air, fire… But all of them, these eight, they are simply material. So we are thinking that “I have now built a very nice house, skyscraper building.” It is nothing but dream. Nothing but dream. Dream in this sense, that as soon as I give up this body, all my skyscraper building, business, factory — finished. Exactly the same dream. Dream is for few minutes, or few hours. And it is for few years. That’s all. It is dream” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-Gita 2.15

“So one should not be disturbed by this dreaming condition. That is spiritual life. One should not be disturbed. Just like we are not disturbed. Suppose, in dream, I was put on the throne, and I was working like a king, and after the dream is over, I am not sorry. Similarly, in dream I was seeing that tiger has attacked me. I was actually crying “Here is tiger! Here is tiger! Save me.” And the person who is lying behind me or beside me, he says, “Oh, why you are crying? Where is tiger?” So when he’s awakened, he sees there is no tiger. So everything is like that” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.15

“But this dream, these gross and subtle dreams, are simply reflections. Just like what is dream? The whole day, what I think, the dreaming is a reflection, reflection. My father was doing cloth business. So sometimes he, in dreaming he was quoting price: “This is the price.” So similarly it is all dreaming.” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-Gita 2.15

“This material existence, made of these five gross elements and three subtle elements, they’re exactly like dream. Smara nityam aniyatam.(?) Therefore Canakya Pandita says, smara nityam aniyatam. This anitya, temporary… Dreaming is always temporary” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.15

“So we must know that whatever we possess, whatever we are seeing, these are all dream, temporary. Therefore if we become engrossed with the temporary things, so-called socialism, nationalism, family-ism or this-ism, that-ism, and waste our time, without cultivating Krsna consciousness, then that is called srama eva hi kevalam, simply wasting our time, creating another body. Our own business is that we should know that “I am not this dream. I am fact, spiritual fact. So I have got a different business.” That is called spiritual life. That is spiritual life, when we understand that “I am Brahman. I am not this matter.” 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-gita 2.15

“Suppose you are dreaming. So either you suffer in the presence of a tiger, or you become a king in dream, what is the value? It is the same thing. There is no difference. After all, it is dreaming”. 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-Gita 2.15

“If I become very happy because I have become a king or some big man, that is also dream. And if I think that “I am so poor, Oh, I am suffering, I am diseased,” that is also the same thing”. 72/11/21 Hyderabad, Bhagavad-Gita 2.15

“A dream becomes automatically known to a person as false and immaterial, and similarly one eventually realizes that material happiness in this life or the next, on this planet or a higher planet, is insignificant. When one realizes this, the Vedas, although an excellent source, are insufficient to bring about direct knowledge of the truth. [Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.11.3]

“Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power”. Srimad-Bhagavatam

“Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep”. Srimad-Bhagavatam

The conclusion is, the spiritual world is the ultimate reality while the material world, being temporary, is illusory and in fact, unreal. It is something like a dream. When we wake up, the dream fades as the day wears on. Again, this knowledge is for intelligent, sober people. Yet, one does not need a high academic degree to understand this basic philosophy. Just faith. But not blind faith. It must be faith based on knowledge and experience. It is not so mystical. One can still pay their rent, raise children and be a lover of God.

When Lord Krishna speaks of the material body as “nonexistent,” He is referring to its being temporary; its existence is not a permanent fact. “Nonexistent” does not mean that the material body and the material world are simply not there at all, or that they are “false,” as some impersonalists say.

How can we distinguish between reality and illusion? In a dream, everything seems quite real. We go through the same register of emotions and impressions as when we are awake. Dreams seem real enough. What, then, makes a dream unreal? In the Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna has given the answer by pointing out that reality is that which exists without cessation, that which continues and is everlasting. A dream, therefore, since it has a beginning and an end, cannot be real. Real existence is continuous.

Those who are seers of the truth have concluded that of the nonexistent [the material body] there is no endurance and of the eternal [the soul] there is no change. This they have concluded by studying the nature of both.” (Bhagavad-gita 2.16)

the Srimad Bhagavatam explains the different stages of awareness canto 1 ch 11 text 23 “In the terms of waking consciousness, dreaming, dreamless sleep and the transcendental position”

Avasthâtraya: the three states of consciousness (see also v r i t t i - t r a y a): waking, jâgrat, sleep svapna and deep sleep sushupti that are the functions of the intelligence that follow the modes of nature; with characteristics different from them is the individual soul ascertained as being the witness (see 1.18: 26, 4.29: 71 & 1b, 6.16: 61-62, 7.7: 25 10.47: 31, 10.84: 24-25 ,11.13: 27, 11.25: 20, and 11.28: 20).

Above these three philosophically also designated as the vis’wa (the external), taijasa (physical power) and prâjña (thought) state of the Lord, one also finds turîya (the super conscious state of the soul its self-realization, see 12.11: 22).

o this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second”.

Srila Prabhupada: - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 13th, 2007
72 Akruranatha

“A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. ”

I see now this is a quote from “Jaiva Dharma” that Amalagaura posted in the first comment in this thread.

(Why didn’t anyone tell me?) :-)

So, there are these appartently contradictory statements of the acaryas. Even Srila Prabhupada himself did not always answer the same questions the same ways.

Sometimes harmonizing these different statements is more of an art than a science, or rather, sometimes truly scientific understanding requires the ability to accommodate externally contradictory explanations while appreciating what is essentially true about them. Whether in material science or spiritual science, the best science is often poetic.

We were discussing “analogies” and “metaphors” before. While the analogies and metaphors the acaryas use to explain concepts beyond our experience are all completely perfect, they can seem to contradict one another if we try to analyse them without proper understanding.

Sometimes we just have to tolerate the ambiguity or tension between apparently contradictory authorized statements and ask relevant, submissive questions until we eventually understand the harmonizing essential truth.

Some things we are going to just have to experience when we get there. Some things are not that important or helpful for me to speculate about. I do not know what it really feels like to be playing with Krishna in Goloka.

Will I remember all my unlimited past lives in the material world (the Buddhists have this tradition of Buddha remembering numerous past lives upon attaining enlightenment, and they tell these instructive “lives of Buddha” tales), or will Krishna kindly allow me to forget all such ghastly experiences? Will I nevertheless know that Krishna’s illusory energy exists and I ought to stay out of it? (If not, can I still be said to be in “full knowledge”?) Is that what Srila Prabhupada means by having a relationship with both the spiritual and material worlds? (Or does he mean, as Japa Jim suggests, that only conditioned souls have a releationship with both the material and spiritual worlds?)

Sometimes when devotees asked Srila Prabhupada absurd questions like, “Why is Krishna blue?”, he would say they should be more concerned with why they cannot ask Krishna directly. In other words, they should learn how to associate with Krishna and experience for themselves.

Jadurani once asked, “Does it rain in the spiritual world?”, and Srila Prabhupada replied, “If I told you it rained …. you *still* would not know what it is like.”

Describing jivas as being first situated on the “line of demarcation” must be perfect, if Bhaktivinode Thakur really said that, but it is not a description Srila Prabhupada gave for us. We do not say that in ISKCON. Nevertheless, Srila Prabhupada does not want us to create havoc by criticizing the Thakur or others who faithfully accept his instructions.

In Gurudas Prabhu’s wonderful and very entertaining memoir, “By His Example”, he describes how at Kumbha Mela Prabhupada asked the disciples “How do we know Krishna is God?” One disciple ventured, “Because Krishna says so in Bhagavad-Gita”, but Prabhupada rejected this, saying “Anyone can say that.” He also rejected Gurudas’ answer that we know because Srila Prabhupada, the spiritual master said so: “Someone will say I am just an old man.” Srila Prabhupada finally said, “You know Krishna is God because you feel His presence when you chant, as well as when you serve. You feel the ecstasy: this is the proof.”

Gurudas goes on to relate how later, on a morning walk in Philadelphia, Srila Prabhupada asked the same question. When no one responded, Gurudas, who had been present at Kumbha Mela, gave the answer he had already heard: “You know Krishna is God because you feel His presence when you chant and when you serve. You feel the ecstasy.” Srila Prabhupada said no, and instead answered “Because the Bhagavad-Gita states it. . .” and quoted a verse. :-)

Gurudas Prabhu comments:

“Many devotees get entangled in what ‘Prabhupada says.’ I have witnessed devotees making such statements to support their own arguments or endeavors. . . . Rather than engaging in poilitical debates, we must first realize the instructions of Prabhupada and shastra, discuss them jointly, and then unite and cooperate with one another to continue Prabhupada’s offering to the world, i.e., Krishna consciousness. One must not take Prabhupadas instructions piecemeal in order to justify one’s own angle of vision. The idea of Bhakti-yoga is to serve Radha and Krishna and our godbrothers and godsisters, and not to fight with each other. . . .”

Anyway, please forgive me godbrothers and godsisters, nephews and nieces and Vaishnavas everywhere, if I am engaging in political debates or trying to justify one angle of vision. I want to do what Gurudas says and unite with the other devotees to push on ISKCON successfully.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 13th, 2007
73 Unregistered

Akruranatha says - “it may be just my own faulty perception, but I feel like there is a kind of an invention of a “new” dogma, a selection of some of Srila Prabhupada’s words to the exclusion of others, an attempt to “convert” the devotees to a particular way of phrasing things and responding to questions, replete with unfamiliar catch phrases such as “the marginal living entities’ secondary nitya-baddha consciousnesses journey throughout the mahat-tattva (material creation)”. Even if the philosophy is correct, the expression of it rubs me the wrong way. It does not “feel” like Srila Prabhupada to me”.

I don’t mean to offend anyone by doing this. .Just like a translator translate English to Russian or Chinese; I simply used terms such a ‘fall down to the material world’ as ‘ones secondary nitya-baddha conscious plunge that is contained in ethereal and biological vessels’ as explaining Prabhupada’s teachings from another angle or viewpoint. once again I don’t mean to offend anyone by doing this.

In 1969 Prabhupada said we must explain ‘our’ philosophy without changing anything, in a way people can understand. He told us to write for Krishna. This is why we have discussions on Srila Prabhupada’s purports; we read them and explain them in a way, without changing the essence, in a more simple explanation for others to get a clearer understanding.

In the Temple the other day a guest could not get the meaning of a purport so the same purport was explained in another way and he understood. Actually Srila Prabhupada encouraged us to understand the philosophy and explain it with our own realizations. We also live in a new age now and it is very different than the 1960’s and 70’s, frankly even though books are the basis, the internet is probably the quickest way of preaching now.

Things will change, that is the way of explaining things will change according to time, place and circumstance, but the basic essence of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings will never change and always be the basis. In this way the essence has not changed, only the way of presenting or translating it has, like that of a language. The philosophy has not and never will change.

Also Akruranatha prabhu, you where right that our disagreement was possibly a miss understating of words

“The living entity is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord, and the material energy is called the inferior energy. Due to his material inebriety, the living entity in the marginal position becomes entangled with the inferior energy, matter. At such a time he forgets his spiritual significance, identifies himself with material energy and thereby becomes subjected to the threefold miseries. Only when he is free from such material contamination can he be situated in his proper position”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

“The supreme knowledge of Krishna is exhibited in three different energies–internal, marginal and external. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia; by means of His marginal energy, He exhibits Himself as the living entities, and by means of His external energy He exhibits Himself as material energy. Behind each and every energetic exhibition there is the background of eternity, pleasure, potency and full cognisance”. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

“In the Mayavadi commentary, the spiritual, transcendental form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead has been denied, and the Supreme Brahman has been dragged down to the level of the individual Brahman, the living entity. Both the Supreme Brahman and the individual Brahman have been denied spiritual form and individuality, although it is clearly stated that the Supreme Lord is the one supreme living entity and the other living entities are the many subordinate living entities”. “. Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 25 Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada

By definition we are the marginal energy of the Lord and that marginal energy is tatastha. I believe then that jiva-tatstha is represented first and for most as our nitya-siddha eternal bodily that perpetually serves Krishna Goloka. Marginal therefore means we are separated entities, yet at the same time fully dependant on Krishna, just like the rays of the sun cannot exist without the sun (analogy only, not to be taken literally) Marginal also means we have free will.

We are neither the superior energy or the inferior energy and therefore called the inbetween borderline energy or tatastha.

However, the eternal expression of the jiva-tatastha is their perpetual a nitya-siddha bodily, which is the marginal potencies perpetual Krishna Conscious expression of their ‘jiva-tatastha’ individuality.

Clearly tatastha is not an impersonal state of being, although the jiva-tatasha can enter and be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) in the dress of ethereal and biological containers.

There are other interpretations unfortunately that translate the word tatastha as an impersonal beginning for the marginal energy of the Lord; it is that interpretation that is incorrect.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 13th, 2007
74 Akruranatha

I agree with this last comment of Bhakta Rod (#73). It is very well stated.

Bhata Rod, I did not ever mean to disparage your efforts at explaining Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, and your emphasis (in line with Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis) on our eternal position as personal associates of Krishna with spiritual bodies.

I do appreciate your article and our discussions on the subject.

I admit that there are things about Vedic terminolgy I do not clearly understand. (i.e., How is it that “nitya baddhas” who escape maya become “nitya siddhas”? (Isn’t that a contradiction?) Why are the liberated jivas called “aksara” or “infallible” even though they may misuse their independence and become “ksara” or “fallible”?

[To be sure, even conditioned jivas are sometimes referred to as “aksaram” to distinguish them from matter, e.g. in B.G. 8.3]

You are probably right that the explanation lies in the fact that the spirit soul itself is never actually contaminated by matter. It is only due to our foolish identification with material enegy that we have the experience of undergoing material existence, while we can know (at least theoretically) that our pure consciousness of blissful bhakti never disappears.

How could it ever disappear or even change? That spiritual world is unchanging and never is annihilated:

paras tastmat tu bhavo ‘nyo, ‘vyakto ‘vyaktat sanatanah, yah sa sarvesu bhutesu, nasyatsu na vinasyati (”Yet there is another unmanifest nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifest and unmanifested matter. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is.”) (B.G. 8.20)

avyakto ‘ksara ity uktas, tam ahuh paramam gatim, yam prapya na nivartante, tad dhama paramam mama (”That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible, that which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which, having attained it, one never returns — That is My supreme abode.”) (B.G. 8.21) [There is that word “aksara” again]

I have to accept that as long as I am conceiving of things in terms of time and space it will be difficult for me to grasp this esoteric subject matter. Therefore I have to just listen to Srila Prabhupada, as Gauragopala advises me.

I *have* heard Srila Prabhupada say that once we return to the infallible abode of Krishna we will never want to come back into maya. (See, e.g., Purport to 8.15: “Since this temporary material world is full of the miseries of birth, old age, disease and death, naturally he who achieves the highest perfection and attains the supreme planet, Krishnaloka, Goloka Vrndavana, does not wish to return.”)

That is, it is not just a word-play or “lawyer’s trick” to say we never fall down again. It is not that we are always coming and going back and forth into maya, but from the timeless point of view of liberation, there “is no maya” because we are really eternally liberated souls. Krishna really promises we will not fall down again.

In our current condition, we are nitya baddha, and we have to make sure we do surrender to Krishna and never stray. When we perfectly learn our lesson, we really never will stray again.

On the other hand, Srila Prabhupada does write that we “sometimes” are in ignorance and “sometimes” in Krishna consciousness:

“The living entity (jivatma) takes different positions — sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior, spiritual nature. Therefore he is called the Lord’s marginal energy.” (B.G. 8.3 Purport)

I do not take this “sometimes” to mean over and over again, the way the material world is manifested and anihilated again and again. One time of merging into the dark material nature can be “sometimes”, and hopefully once is enough. However, free will means there is always a choice.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 13th, 2007
75 Unregistered

Bhakta Rod you seem to misunderstand the point of the dream metaphor when it comes to the material world or material consciousness. This is due to your unfamiliarity with siddhanta on this topic. You take a few quotes out of their context and true metaphoric import and then concoct a theology which has no real basis in reality. You started this debate with your original article post wherein you began thusly:

Could it be we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

The answer is no. We are not dreaming that we are living on planet earth undergoing what we undergo. This keyboard I am using is made up of molecules which form elements and which were then crafted into this piece of machinery. None of this is a dream. A dream is a mental creation, there is no solid substance, no ongoing existence in a dream. This material world is not a dream, it is very real, it is comprised of the bahiranga-sakti of the Lord. It is substantial and what we experience is also very real e.g. we are born, grow, etc. This world is real, the reason it is compared to a dream is because it is temporary. The reason people in material consciousness are compared to living in a dream state is because in a dream you are unaware of the true nature of the situation you are in e.g. you believe so much that isn’t real as being real. So for a person in material consciousness he doesn’t know how thismaterial world functions, he doesn’t know that everything he experiences be it in themind or or outside the mind, that it is all God and controlled by God at every second. He sees the world and sees so many different factors which he may believe have control or are ultimate causes of the effects he witnesses and experiences. But that is all an illusion, a dream like reality.

Sri Krsna explains this in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.31-35

Those states of existence that are conceived of as separate from the Supreme Personality of Godhead have no actual existence, although they create a sense of separation from the Absolute Truth. Just as the seer of a dream imagines many different activities and rewards, similarly, because of the sense of an existence separate from the Lord’s existence, the living entity falsely performs fruitive activities, thinking them to be the cause of future rewards and destinations.

While awake the living entity enjoys with all of his senses the fleeting characteristics of the material body and mind; while dreaming he enjoys similar experiences within the mind; and in deep dreamless sleep all such experiences merge into ignorance. By remembering and contemplating the succession of wakefulness, dreaming and deep sleep, the living entity can understand that he is one throughout the three stages of consciousness and is transcendental. Thus, he becomes the lord of the senses.

You should consider how, by the influence of My illusory energy, these three states of the mind, caused by the modes of nature, have been artificially imagined to exist in Me. Having definitely ascertained the truth of the soul, you should utilize the sharpened sword of knowledge, acquired by logical reflection and from the instructions of sages and Vedic literatures, to completely cut off the false ego, which is the breeding ground of all doubts. All of you should then worship Me, who am situated within the heart.

One should see that the material world is a distinct illusion appearing in the mind, because material objects have an extremely flickering existence and are here today and gone tomorrow. They can be compared to the streaking red line created by whirling a fiery stick. The spirit soul by nature exists in the single state of pure consciousness. However, in this world he appears in many different forms and stages of existence. The modes of nature divide the soul’s consciousness into normal wakefulness, dreaming and dreamless sleep. All such varieties of perception, however, are actually māyā and exist only like a dream.

Having understood the temporary illusory nature of material things, and thus having pulled one’s vision away from illusion, one should remain without material desires. By experiencing the happiness of the soul, one should give up material speaking and activities. If sometimes one must observe the material world, one should remember that it is not ultimate reality and therefore one has given it up. By such constant remembrance up till the time of death, one will not again fall into illusion.

In the bold text above Sri Krsna states:

“One should see that the material world is a distinct illusion appearing in the mind, because material objects have an extremely flickering existence and are here today and gone tomorrow.”

“Just as the seer of a dream imagines many different activities and rewards, similarly, because of the sense of an existence separate from the Lord’s existence, the living entity falsely performs fruitive activities, thinking them to be the cause of future rewards and destinations.”

It’s not that the material world really is a dream or an illusion, but because it is temporary therefore it is compared to a dream and called illusory, and because the conditioned soul doesn’t understand the relationship of this world with the Supreme Lord his condition is comapred to that of a person in a dream

Sri Krsna explains this in Srimad Bhagavatam 11.13.22-24

: My dear brāhmaṇas, if, when asking Me who I am, you believe that I am also a jīva soul and that there is no ultimate difference between us — since all souls are ultimately one without individuality — then how is your question possible or appropriate? Ultimately, what is the real situation or resting place both of yourselves and of Me?

If by asking Me “Who are You?” you were referring to the material body, then I must point out that all material bodies are constituted of five elements, namely earth, water, fire, air and ether. Thus, you should have asked, “Who are you five?” If you consider that all material bodies are ultimately one, being constituted essentially of the same elements, then your question is still meaningless, since there would be no deep purpose in distinguishing one body from another. Thus, it appears that in asking My identity, you are merely speaking words, without any real meaning or purpose.

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

The dream is not understanding reality for what it really is. The material world is real, our existence here is real, our material bodies are real,what we experience in the material world is real. It is not a dream. It is compared to a dream because it is all temporary. The material world is eternal but it is constantly changing and our experience of it is temporary therefore it is compared to a dream. Also when a jiva is covered over by avidya, ignorance of what we are and what this world is, ignorance of how this world and how we function, this misperception of reality is also compared to dream. But we shouldn’t misunderstand the dream metaphor and think that this world is not real.

Akruranatha you asked

Now here is an interesting theological question: Why does the Lord bother having fragmented energies? Why can’t He simply enjoy in His unlimited plenary expansions with His unlimited plenary potencies? Why does He have fragmental energies who are capable of turning their back on Him and in so doing undergo a miserable life of torment and evil?

The answer should be obvious. If the Lord didn’t have the jiva souls then the Lord would be alone. His plenary expnasions are Him, there is only the Lord (Sri Sri Radha Krsna) and their plenary expansions, who are all the Lord, and the jiva souls, in existence.

Comment posted by shiva on October 13th, 2007
76 Unregistered

Shiva, in all due respects you are not understanding Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.

‘Could it be we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu while our authentic constitutional eternal self or foundation is perpetually a nitya-siddha devotee in Goloka serving Krishna?

The answer is yes.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes” - Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

You cannot obtain a clearer answer than that. Many respected devotees in ISKCON like Ravindra Svarup Prabhu also understand this and clearly understand that ‘when we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another, they all tell the whole truth’

comment - What remains ‘imperishable’ beyond mundane material time and impermanence is ones perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha identity or body that every marginal living entity has had eternally without origin. One just has to wake up from their material dreams within Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva and realize this fact by again becoming Krishna Conscious

“Lord Maha-Vishnu is the source of thousands of avataras in His thousands and thousands of subjective portions. He is the creator of countless individual souls. He is also known by the name of Narayana, meaning the shelter of all the individual jiva souls. From Him springs forth the vast expanse of water known as the spiritual Causal Ocean wherein the material creation takes place. Maha-Vishnu then reclines in the waters of the Causal Ocean in a state of divine sleep, called yoga-nidra. Thus, it is said that the universal creation is but the dream of Maha-Vishnu”- Brahma-samhita 5.11-12

“The living entity has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krishna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) .

‘Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krishna consciousness”. Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in San Francisco on February 18, 1967

Comment - So what is the real meaning of nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) and nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned)? Srila Prabhupada answers -

“We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

From Jayadvaita Swami web site he explains that Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it - .

“Constitutionally,” he said in one letter, “every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikunthaloka [the personal spiritual abode of the Lord], has a chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy.”

“Usually,” he explained, “anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misuse of his independence.”

In another letter, Srila Prabhupada gave further insights. “We are always with Krishna. Where is Krishna not present?” But “when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated, tad dure tad v antike: ‘He is very far away, but He is very near as well.’ (Isopanisad, Mantra Five).

So this forgetfulness is our falldown. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately by rising to the platform of Krishna consciousness.”

Our relationship with Krishna is never lost, Srila Prabhupada said. “Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya. So it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the holy name of Krishna, and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position.

The relationship of the living entity with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.”

In still another letter, Srila Prabhupada restated this in yet another way: “We are all originally situated on the platform of Krishna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krishna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world, or Maya.” But when we chant the Hare Krishna mantra sincerely and without offence, our original Krishna consciousness is at once revived.

“So naturally everything about Krishna is originally known to us all, and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His holy name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krishna in different ways.”

Our separation from Krishna, Srila Prabhupada taught, is like a dream. We dream, “I am this body,” and we dream of happiness in material relationships. This dreaming condition is our non-liberated state. But although this state of dreaming may seem to last for lifetimes, as soon as we become Krishna conscious we awaken, and the dream at once disappears. “After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila [pastimes] of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, like dreaming.”

Do you understand what the concept of dreaming in the spiritual sense means?

Don’t mix it up the word ‘dream’ with the dreaming of your biological body for those dreams ARE illusion, On the other hand the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity are very real but are temporary, That’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming. They are simply our no-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are expelled from Goloka to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies).

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 14th, 2007
77 Akruranatha

Mayavadis say, “brahma satyam jagan mithya”, the material universe is “mithya” (false).

It is an essential point that Vaisnavas do not say the world is false. It is Krishna’s energy.

(It is also brahman, although as conditioned souls we take it to be something else, i.e. our illusory “domain”, that which is meant for our material enjoyment. In fact there is nothing else: sarva khalv idam brahman.)

What is false is our conception of the world’s relation to us. We take it as something for us to enjoy. In reality, it all emanates from and belongs to Krishna and is for His enjoyment.

We take this material body (senses, mind, form) to be ourselves, the center for our enjoyment, but actually they too belong to Krishna. Our real duty is to offer it all for His pleasure.

We are Krishna’s servants, eternally. Our real self-interest is serving His interest. He is the self of our self. When we think we are something else, we are in illusion. He gives us facility for such illusion in His external energy.

The energy is real, and He can make it act as illusion-inducing or enlightening just as electricity can be used for both heating and cooling.

It is only our mistaken conception of what it is and what we are that is false.

When we see if for what it is, it becomes “Krishna-ized”, like the flowers we offer in arati.

Every Saturday morning in San Jose temple (ISKCON Silicon Valley), we recite the following important verses from the First Canto:

“In that place , Srila Vyasadeva, in his own asrama, which was surrounded by berry trees, sat down to meditate after touching water for purification.

“Thus he fixed his mind, perfectly engaging it by linking it in devotional service [bhakti-yoga] without any tinge of materialism, and thus he saw the Absolute Personality of Godhead along with His extenal energy, which was under full control.

“Due to this external energy, the living entity, although transcendental to the three modes of material nature, thinks of himself as a material product and thus undergoes the reactions of material miseries.

“The material miseries of the living entity, which are superfluous to him, can be directly mitigated by the linking process of devotional service. But the mass of people do not know this, and therefore the learned Vyasadeva compiled this Vedic literature, which is in relation to the Supreme Truth.”

S.B. 1.7.3-6

“Simply by giving aural reception to this Vedic literature, the feeling for loving devotional service to Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, sprouts up at once to extinguish the fire of lamentation, illusion and fearfulness.”

S.B. 1.7.7

The “Vedic literature” described above is, of course Srimad Bhagavatam.

Vedanta sutra is in the form of codes, pithy aphorisms that contain a lot of meaning which has to be “unpacked” by commentaries.

Lord Caitanya revealed that the Beautiful Bhagavatam is the natural commentary by the same author, Vyasadeva.

That Bhagavatam explains perfectly well what the temporary, changing material energy and the unchanging, infallable spiritual energy is, in relation to the source of both, Sri Krishna, for the benefit of all souls, and particularly to give light to people just like us, the fallen people of Kali yuga.

The Bhagavad Gita, which is also Bhagavatam, also explains that same subject matter.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 14th, 2007
78 Kesava Krsna dasa

Dear prabhus,

I hope you don’t mind this interjection here. As of yet there seems to be no finality to the ongoing discussion. Numerous quotes and verses have been used to bolster each presentation. The ‘dream’ interpretation’ is disputed in a finely balanced way between it being real, or real but false and so on. No one will yeild if they have sastra on their side.

Without resorting to sastric quotes, my understanding of the dream phenomenon can be put in a nutshell. It may be subject to wise scrutiny and I certainly does not claim to give a final say on the matter, lest I be a bold, brash know-it-all.

When Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it. How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determins whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emenates from the Lord, the answer is yes.

Latching on to the false side of the argument as strenuously as has been presented does have some merit, but is not a substantial way of deducing reality from illusion. In reality there is no outright illusion except the time factor - kala - which gives experiences of beginning and end, which is the main provider of the real but false logic.

When the worlds are created, that is reality. When they are annihilated that is reality. When the jiva souls are taken into the body of Maha-Vishnu that is reality. So why should Maha-Vishnu’s dream world be any less real?

As for whether the marginal living entities remain on the borderline or not, even when going back to Godhead, I heard a very nice answer given by HH Tamal Krishna Maharaja who inquired from Srila Prabhupada on the matter. He said that Srila Prabhupada told him about a million dollars. One person may inherit the million dollars. Another person may earn a million dollars. Yet another person may simply be given a million dollars by a benefactor.

These three equate to the following: the inheritor of a million dollars is the nitya-siddha - he never falls from grace. The one who works and earns a million dollars is the sadhaka-siddhi. The one who is given the million dollars is the krpa-siddhi. In all three cases they become or are millionaires. In the same way, the three spiritual perfectionists attain nitya-siddha status. According to this answer, the marginal living entity attains the same perfection.

I am not sure if I am somewhat off course here. The lecture is somewhere in my hard drive - I think. Otherwise I am sure someone will know of this example. So please do not interrogate me about hard facts and so on.

It is good to familiarize ourselves with these topics, but I feel again, that the going back and forth over the issue of reality, versus true but false, appears more a matter of semantics.

Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.

Comment posted by Kesava Krsna dasa on October 15th, 2007
79 Japa Jim

Siva says:
“Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.”
end quote:

I would have to disagree with that analysis.
Tatastha-shakti is called tatastha-shakti because it was begotten in the Viraja as Maha-Vishnu lies there in that causal ocean in his yoga-nidra.

In Brahma-Samhita we find the purport:

Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.44 purport,
“When jīvas begotten of the marginal potency (taṭasthā śakti) forget the service of Kṛṣṇa they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durgā.”

The marginal potency of Krishna is manifested in the marginal plane of the Viraja.
That is why it is called marginal potency, because it is employed in the marginal realm of the Viraja.

This Viraja is described as having a marginal nature in shastra.

“Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 21.50

pradhāna-parama-vyomnor

antare virajā nadī

vedāńga-sveda-janitais

toyaiḥ prasrāvitā śubhā

SYNONYMS

pradhāna-parama-vyomnoḥ antare — between the material world and the spiritual world; virajā nadī — is a river known as Virajā; veda-ańga — of the transcendental body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; sveda-janitaiḥ — produced from the perspiration; toyaiḥ — with water; prasrāvitā — flowing; śubhā — all-auspicious.

TRANSLATION

“‘Between the spiritual and the material world is a body of water known as the river Virajā. This water is generated from the bodily perspiration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Vedāńga. Thus the river flows.”

This description exactly corresponds that what is said in this verse about the marignal nature of the jiva.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109 purport,
“You belong to Kṛṣṇa’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”

So, it is quite obvious that tatastha-shakti refers to the jivas that are manifested by Maha-Vishnu from within the Viraja.
That is the whole idea of tatastha-shakti.
The jivas that inhabit this material energy were manifested in the Viraja and it was from there where they made their first mistake in judgement to turn to maya and away from the Lord.
Since the Viraja is spiritual and the jivas being manifested there are potentially pure, it is a falldown for the jiva to chose maya over the Lord from that marginal position.

To say that the tatastha-shakti has nothing to do with a place or a realm of existence is just wrong.
I know, Shiva says that even the liberated devotees of Goloka are also marginal potency.
I don’t accept that in the way some others do.
Maybe they WERE tatastha-shakti before they became loving servants of Krishna and for that reason they can also be referred to as marginal potency.

When a jiva attains the infallible position of liberation in devotional service, I just don’t see how and why they can be lumped-in with all the conditioned jivas that are begotten by the marginal potency for the purpose of inhabiting the material worlds.
Something about that just doesn’t set right with me.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
80 Akruranatha

The issue of whether the world is “false”, as the Mayavadis say, or a transformation of the Lord’s energies, as the Vaisnavas say, is a very fundamental aspect of Vaishnava Vedanta philosophy. That is what Shiva was getting at.

(Maybe it does not impact very much our day to day service, but we should at some point take it upon ourselves to learn these fundamental positions from Srila Prabhupada’s books. It is part of our mission in ISKCON to establish the real true purports of all Vedic literature and expose the faults of the indirect, “word jugglery” explanations of Mayavadis.)

A good reference point is Adi Lila, Chapter 7, in which Lord Caitanya exposes this central fault of Sripad Sankaracarya’s commentary (when He liberates the Mayavadi sannyasis of Benares, headed by Prakasananda Sarasvati). (See also, Lord Caitanya’s conversion of Sarvabhauma Battacarya).

The Vedanta Sutra plainly says the world is a transformation of the energy of the Absolute. Mayavadis fear that this means the Absolute itself changes, and therefore they say that the Vedanta Sutra is mistaken. (???)

It is an illegal move in Vedic discourse to claim that Vyasadeva made a mistake, but they cannot otherwise get around the point. Therefore their entire philosophy has to be rejected by any honest person.

Their vivarta-vada “theory of illusion” is that only “undifferentiated brahman” is real, and all varieties, forms, qualities and personalities are simply “illusion”. However, they cannot very well describe where this illusion comes from, or how it has qualities that do not exist in the supposed source (undifferentiated brahman).

Because the world is a transformation of the Lord’s energy, it is actually connected to the Lord. It is only the illusion of being independent from the Lord that is “false”, and it is only because of our persistence in this illusion that it is experienced by us as “dreamlike”. The varieties of the Lord’s energies, including His external energy, actually exist. Whatever is created by the Lord is factual. Our illusion is that we take it for something it is not.

One time Lord Caitanya as a young child was eating dirt. Mother Shaci told Him to stop, but He said, “Mother, you are always feeding me dirt. Rice is a transformation of dirt, milk is a transformation of dirt. It is all dirt.” His loving mother then told Him, “Dirt in the form of rice and milk is good to eat, but eating dirt in the form of clay will make you sick so you must not eat it in that form.” He congratulated her in so nicely refuting Mayavadi philosophy.

Everything really is brahman. That is established by the shastras. However, when rebellious souls try to dominate and exploit the Lord’s energy, it is harmful for them, illusory, bad.

They think it is not brahman but something else. That is their illusion. That is their dream. They are dreaming they are the lord of all they survey, that material nature is their property, or themselves. “I and mine.” They are really Krishna’s servants, but they are “dreaming” they are something else. Actually, there is nothing else, there is nothing independent from Krishna.

That same energy really exists as the Lord’s potency. It is all Krishna’s and thus is nondifferent from Krishna.

We all know the invocation to Sri Isopanisad. “Purnat purnam udacyate”: what comes from the complete whole is also complete. “Purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate”: even though the complete is taken from the complete whole, the complete whole remains the complete whole, without in any way being diminished. Krishna can emanate so many universes by application of His diverse potencies and yet remain personally unchanged.

When properly used in His devotional service, that same energy will be very useful and helpful in bringing about our liberation from illusion and reawakening our lost relationship with Krishna. Therefore, we do not say it is “false” or “unreal”. Illusioned souls are merely misunderstanding what it really is.

It is like the example of the cat and the kitten I discussed earlier. The materialist sees the material energy as something to exploit or surmount, but which eventually crushes him. The mayavadi just *pretends* it is not real, or says he is really God but he is just choosing to “enjoy” this miserable “lila” of being crushed by maya. Only the devotee can actually see how it is truly Krishna’s mercy.

Shiva is bringing up this point in relation to Jiva Goswami’s conclusive arguments in the sandarbhas. We should put all put aside trying to be “dominant” or “win” the argument and should be receptive to hear these actual explanations.

I really appreciate hearing everyone’s realizations. This conversation is moving us into discussions of very essential parts of the Caitanya Caritamrta: i.e., understanding the Vaisnava “parinamavada” or “theory of transformation.” I hope that we can read and discuss these topics together in a spirit of frendship and appreciation for each other’s association. I look forward to learning a lot as we read these important sections of Srila Prabhupada’s books together.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 16th, 2007
81 Unregistered

Kesava Krsna dasa writes - “When Sri Maha-Vishnu goes into yoga-nidra, this act of sleeping His mystic slumber is real - for anything the Lord does is reality. Within this mystic dream, we the minute living entities are in fact participating in it. How we choose to misuse our God-given independence determines whether we stay or leave this realm. Is it real? If it emanates from the Lord, the answer is yes”.

The concept of ‘dreaming’ in the material sense has to be correctly understood as you have clearly explained. The word ‘material dream’ simply means mistaken ‘desires’ and ‘thoughts’ that are impermanent and outside the kingdom of a perpetual reality that is imperishable and never decays. It is that ‘eternal’ place of Goloka and Vaikuntha that all the marginal living entities are perpetually founded in their eternally spiritual body or svarupa.

Don’t identify the word ‘dream as explained by Prabhupada in relation to our exitence in the material creation,’ with the dreaming of the biological body, for those dreams ARE illusion. On the other hand, the dreams, thoughts and desires of the marginal living entity, or jiva-tatastha, are very real but are temporary, that’s what Prabhupada means when using the words dream or dreaming. They are simply our non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that are excluded from Goloka and can only find expression within the yoga-nidra dreams of Maha-Vishnu. It is there such desires, thoughts or dreams are given ethereal and biological bodies (material bodies) that are the ornaments and decorations of the mahat-tattva.

These vessels not only belong to the mahat-tattva, but ARE the mahat-tattva, sometimes called mother nature, that the jiva-tatastha possess with their nitya-baddha secondary consciousness.

In this way, just like darkness appears when the sun is no longer visible, the nitya-baddha consciousness appears when one miss uses their free will to choose to ignore Krishna and their nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, which is their (jiva-tatastha) full potential. Nitya-baddha therefore is the secondary consciousness where one can experience their self centered mistaken dreams.

The reason the word ‘dream’ is used is because Prabhupada explains that Maha-Vishnu in His yoga-nidra state, is in a trance or dream, and that dream is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

Yoga nidra literally means ‘sleep’

‘This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

He also explains that the living entities entrance in the mahat-tattva is also a dream state.

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Srila Prabhupada SB. 4.29.2b.

Look at all the paintings of Maha-Vishnu and we see He is lying down sleeping and dreaming and that dream is the mahat-tattva.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together.

Achintya-Bheda-Abheda or inconceivable one-ness and difference, in relation to the individual marginal living entity and Krishna Achintya means ‘inconceivable’, bheda translates to ‘difference’, and abheda translates to ‘one-ness’.

The full expression and perpetual originality of jiva tatastha is not impersonal as some sects believe. This MEANS jiva-tatastha is eternally represented by their endless nitya-siddha body in Goloka AND not as some impersonal inactive state in-between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva that has confused the meaning of the word tatastha.

Only in this way does the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, from’ time’ to ‘time’, misuse their free will and choose to forget Krishna and the continual nitya-siddha body they serve Krishna as, and set in motion their lower nitya-baddha consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva and ‘rents’ temporary bodily vessels (dreams that are real but temporary) off Maha-Vishnu that always belong to Maha-Vishnu’s ‘thoughts’, making Him always the doer and not the nitya-baddha consciousness

When the Gita says we are not the doer of activities it means that all activities in the material creation are actually the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. He is dreaming all ethereal, biological vessels and their innate surrounding (which is ALL collectively the mahat-tattva except for the visiting nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tatastha, jiva-s’akti etc as Prabhupada explains -

“The bewildered spirit soul, under the influence of the three modes of material nature, thinks himself to be the doer of activities, which are in actuality carried out by nature”.
Chapter 3. Karma-yoga
text 27

“The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” Ch 3 txt 27 purport.

Also jiva-tatastha is the marginal living entity ‘individual influence’ in-between the superior energy (Krishna), and the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) that obviously includes all the ethereal and biological vessels the jiva-tatastha possesses when they choose to miss use their free will and enter the mahat-tattva, forgetting Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha body that is ever present in Goloka

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 16th, 2007
82 Akruranatha

Kesava Krishna has spoken well. Bravo.

Like Kesava Krishna I am looking for the harmony among devotees. We need to have harmonious communication so the clear realizations will start to descend. We need to work on acknowledging what is correct in what others say, rather than only focusing on correcting the faults. Otherwise we will get defensive and combative.

Bhakta Rod, I agree what you are saying is basically true. You and Shiva may be arguing over terminology. When we misuse our free will, the Lord allows us to forget our real identity as His servant, and He gives us the facility to identify with our material gross and subtle bodies which are being created according to our karma. This is like dreaming.

As you said above, you are trying to translate some of your understandings into different language, as one translates English into Russian or Chinese. That is healthy, to try to say something in other words to make sure you have understood. Sometimes these “translations” will sound a little off because there may be some nuance in Srila Prabhupada’s original English expression that could be missed in your translation.

Shiva will correct us if we make some mistake in terminology. We should welcome it and get a clear understanding from him of what was wrong with our terminology, and why. At least, we should consider it carefully. (There is apparently some history on other websites I am not aware of , and “battle lines” may unfortunately have been drawn.) :-)

Also, Shiva evidently reads widely outside of Srila Prabhupada’s books. Sometimes he might say something he has read elsewhere that sounds unusual or different from what we have heard from Srila Prabhupada. If we are patient and careful not to fight I think he will show us how these things are also expressed in Srila Prabhupada’s own language. It can be edifying to learn about these other Goswami books and so on. I cannot wait until BBT comes out with first-class editions of all these important books.

As someone above said, Srila Prabhupada is giving us exactly what is received in disciplic succession and taught by all the acaryas. Srila Prabhupada also planned to publish translations of Vedanta Sutra, Mahabharata and many other books. Someday BBT may publish very authorized editions of many, many books. Srila Prabhupada’s books will remain our central literature, but supplementary books will serve useful purposes. This is already happening.

In the Introduction to Bhagavad-Gita Srila Prabhupada explains that the Gita explains five basic truths: God, the jiva, material nature, time, and karma. Of these, the first four are eternal, whereas karma is not eternal.

“Some philosophers say that the manifestation of material nature is false, but according to the philosphy of Bhagavad-Gita or according to the philosophy of the Vaisnavas, this is not so. The manifestation of the world is not accepted as false; it is accepted as real, but temporary. It is likened to a cloud which moves across the sky, or the coming of the rainy season, which nourishes the grains. As soon as the rainy season is over and the cloud goes away, all the crops which were nourished by the grain dry up. Similarly, this material manifestation takes place at certain intervals, stays for a while and then disappears. Such are the workings of prakrti. But this cycle is working eternally. Therefore prakrti is eternal; it is not false.” . . .

“As the soul migrates, he suffers the actions and reactions of his past activities. These activities can be changed when the living being is in the mode of goodness, in sanity, and understands what sort of activities he should adopt. If he does so, then all the actions and reactions of his past activities can be changed. Consequently, karma is not eternal. Therefore we stated that of the five items (isvara, jiva, prakrti, time and karma) four are eternal, whereas karma is not eternal.”

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 16th, 2007
83 Akruranatha

Japa Jim, I hope you do not mind if I venture once more to respond to your position.

(1) You quote from a Brahma Samhita purport:

“When jīvas begotten of the marginal potency (tatasthā śakti) forget the service of Krishna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durgā.”

I do not see how this quotation supports your argument. It simply underscores that “tatastha sakti” is synonomous with marginal potency, which all of us accept.

It also uses the word “begotten”, which may be what you are driving at. The idea that the jivas are ever “begotten”, in the sense of created out of nothingness, is just one way of looking at things. In another very real sense, there was never a time when any individual jiva did not exist.

(2) You quote a verse that describes the river Viraja and how it originates from the Lord’s perspiration and is situated between the spiritual and material worlds. However, the verse you quote about the Viraja river does not say anything about “tatastha shakti.”

(3) You then quote from the Purport to CC, Madhya Lila 20.108-109, in which Srila Prabhupada repeats how Bhaktivinode Thakur paraphrases the text of the two verses.

The text says that the living entity is marginal potency (word for word is given: “tatastha - marginal; shakti - potency”) and therefore it is his constitutional position to be an etenal servant of Krishna. He is simultaneously one and different from the Lord like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. The Lord has three energies.

Those three energies will be described in the following verses as internal, external and marginal.

Neither the Text nor the Purport says anything about the Viraja river. That is being discussed in the following chapter in a different context. The Text is only describing that the jiva is marginal potency. It does not talk about where the jiva “originated.” Nor does the Purport for that matter.

The part of the Purport you are seizing on says “. . .you are situated between the material and spritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the spirirtual and material worlds; therefore you are called marginal potency.”

You think this refers to the Viraja river because the Viraja river is situated between the spiritual and material worlds. Please consider that you may be mistaken in this interpretation. The Viraja river is not being mentioned.

The marginal potency is being described as “situated” between the material potency and the spiritual potency. There are these three potencies: internal, external and marginal.

It is not exactly that three *places* are being described, but three energies of the Lord. One of those energies, the marginal or tatastha energy, can be in either the spiritual or material world.

Marginal is described as between internal and external, but it is not really a description of a location in space. It describes the *character* of marginal potency: i.e., that it is of the same quality as internal potency, but due to being a minute *quantity* it may be subject to the influence of the external potency.

The jiva is always different in quantity to the Supreme Lord. Always. Therefore he is known as “marginal” or “tatastha”. Always. He never becomes one in *quantity* with the Lord.

His constitutional position is subservient to the Lord. Always. “Constitutional” denotes that is his very nature.

If he tries to be other than subservient to the Lord, he is in illusion. In that condition he is influenced by the external energy.

If he serves the Lord with unalloyed love, he fully displays his true oneness in *quality* with the Lord. However, that does *not* mean he has become the Supreme Lord. He is not one with the Supreme Lord in every respect. He still remains, subordinate, minute, dependent. Always.

That is what we mean by marginal potency or “tatastha shakti”. It refers to the eternally minute, dependent, subordinate, fragmental characteristic of the jiva. This constitutional attribute of the jiva exists even when the jiva serves the Lord in a perfect spiritual body that is qualitiatively just like the Lord’s body. He is always “marginal potency”.

How does that square with the statement that the jiva has a “relationship with both the material and spiritual worlds”? You seem to strongly feel that this can only be true when the jiva is in illusion. Once he is liberated, he has no more relation with the material world.

I believe that may be a faulty premise of yours. The liberated jiva still has a “relationship with the material world”, as Bhaktivinode Thakur uses that phrase in this Purport, because if he misuses his independence he will go there. I think that is all Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur means. He does not mean to indicate that Lord Caitanya was only referring to conditioned jivas as “marginal potency”.

Now, in Jaiva Dharma, at least according to one translation (I do not know the Bengali), Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur has apparently written “A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world.”

I cannot comment on that other than to say it sounds different from what Srila Prabhupada has said on many occasions. It may be a perfectly true story or “fable” illustrating a larger truth about the truly marginal nature of the jiva.

It still does not indicate that a jiva may ever cease being “marginal potency”, nor does it suggest that the natural “home” or “constitutional position” of the jiva is to be on the “line of demarcation”. We know that the constitutinal position of the jiva is to be situated in pure devotional service to Krishna, not in some impersonal “line of demarcation”.

Because we conditioned souls have been under the influence of the external energy from time immemorial, since before this creation even, through countless universal creations and annihilations, we are said to be “eternally” conditioned. No one can trace out when it started. That is the meaning of “nitya baddha” that Srila Prabhupada often gave.

Srila Prabhupada clearly did not want us to argue with those who give one or another account of how we first came to be conditioned. He does not want us to waste time trying to trace out this untraceable history, choosing one or another theory about it.

We can be sure that being on a “line of demarcation” is still being in maya, inasmuch as it is not a full expression of our constitutional position as Krishna’s eternal servants.

We can also be sure that, whether jivas are said to have originated on a “line of demarcation” as this one quotation from a translation of Jaiva Dharma says, or in our eternal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world as Srila Prabhupada has often indicated, they never “originated” in the sense of being manifested from a state of nonexistence. “Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings.” (B.G. 2.12)

At any rate, they are always subordinate to Krishna and never become entirely identical to Krishna in every sense. They never become one in *quantity* with Krishna. That much surely we agree on. Right?

I believe if you survey all of Srila Prabhupada’s writings with an open mind, rather than trying to find support for your position that the jiva in its liberated state ceases to be “marginal energy”, what I am saying will eventually start to “set right” with you.

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood or committed any offenses. I am just trying to clarify understanding. Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 16th, 2007
84 Japa Jim

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 purport,
“The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.”

So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna.
The liberated devotees are neither situated in the material energy or forgetful of Krishna.
As such, they are not “marginal” jivas caught in the web of illusion.

Read the purport.
The living entity is called marginal because “by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy”.

The liberated pure devotees do not fit this description.
Therefore, they cannot be classified along with the forgetful marginal jivas caught in the illusory energy.

The liberated pure devotees are internal energy, not marginal energy.
Marginal means a spirit soul is caught up in illusion.
It means he is spiritual but caught up in the material energy.
That is what marginal means.

Parishads of Krishna with bodies made of sandhini and hladini shakti are not marginal jivas.

There has to be a difference between liberated jivas in pure devotional service and conditioned jivas in illusion.
The difference is that the conditioned jivas are marginal potency and the liberated jivas are internal spiritual potency.

Shastra makes it clear that the associates of Krishna are manifested by hladini and sandhini shaktis.
Krishna’s intimate associates and devotees are NEVER marginal jivas.
They are internal devotees.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
85 Japa Jim

Akruranatha says:

“Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.”

Fragmental yes.
Marginal?
Nowhere have I seen Srila Prabhupada say this.

Please don’t take “fragmentary” and try to equate that with “marginal”.
They are not synonymous.

I don’t think you can produce one verifiable reference where Srila Prabhupada says that liberated souls remain “marginal” after liberation.

You are trying to win the debate by making false comparisons between “fragmental” and “marginal”.

If you have to resort to such tactics to win the debate, then that just shows that you aren’t playing fair and are more interested in winning a debate than in understanding siddhanta.

Krishna says that by a fragment of himself he creates and maintains the whole material creation.
So, a fragment of Krishna can be unlimitedly powerful, unlike the marginal conditioned jivas who make their stand in the land of maya.

If you think that a fragment of Krishna is the same as a conditioned jiva, then you have no concept of the potential power of a fragment of Krishna.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
86 Akruranatha

Honestly, Japa Jim I am really not trying to win any debate. I am hoping to persuade you, but only for friendly, benevolent reasons. I hope you can trust me about that.

At least you and I can both agree that the living entity remains “fragmental” even in the liberated condition in Vaikuntha. That is, we both agree the living entity never becomes *quantitatively* one with the Supreme Lord.

I still think that “marginal” and “fragmental” are synonomous. I am willing to be persuaded otherwise, but the quotations you have cited have not convinced me.

The quotation: “by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy” just ecplains how the marginal jiva becomes situated in the material energy. It does not describe how the marginal jiva becomes “marginal”.

In other words, as I understand it, “marginal” means he can either be situated in the material energy, when he is forgetful, or situated in the spiritual energy where he belongs because he is spiritual by nature.

That is all the quotation you cited says to me.

The liberated jivas are not “‘marginal’ jivas caught in the web of illusion.” Nevertheless they are marginal, because if they misuse their “marginal independence” (which they always have) they *will* be caught in the web of illusion.

You ask me to find quotes to support my position. Please be patient. I am not looking things up on Folio and trying to find quotations. Maybe if I get some time I will do that, or maybe in my reading I will just come across some passages that might help.

You have heard the expression “marginal independence.” That may be a different topic, but it seems to me the jivas always have “marginal independence”. They never have “full independence”, the way Krishna does, because they are fragmental by nature, which I have also understood to be synonomous with “marginal”.

In the final anaylsis we may eventually have to just agree to disagree, but I have not given up hope yet. :-)

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 17th, 2007
87 Akruranatha

Okay I have just looked up “Living entities, as marginal energy” in the Bhagavad-Gita index, which says, “8.3, 9.13, 9.17 and 13.23″

The Purport to 9.13 may be especially helpful:

“Being marginal potency, as soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature, he is put under the guidance of the spiritual nature.”

Note that the above quotation does not say, “As soon as the living entity is freed from the control of material nature he is no longer marginal potency.” On the contrary, his existence as marginal potency means that he is either under the control of material potency or spiritual potency.

I do not mean to take a quotation here or there out of context but hope that we both consider the whole range of Srila Prabhupada’s discussions on this subject.

Here is another one, from the Purport to 13.23:

“But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanction of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate nature, and because he has this tendency he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord”

Now, I can see how you might take this to mean that only when the living entity *does* act independently can he be called “marghinal”. At least I understand that to be your position. But it seems to me that Srila Prabhupada is saying that, being fragmental, the living entity always has this tendency to act independently (i.e., marginal independence).

Perhaps “tendency” is too strong a word, although it is the word Prabhupada often uses. He also sometimes says “susceptible”, “liable” and similar words that may be a little softer. I understand him to be saying that the free will of the jiva renders him *capable* of rebellion, and therefore he has this “tendency”. Not that all jivas are always rebelling or even always inclined to rebel, but that by nature they may do so, and that is the “tendency” he is talking about.

I really do intend to keep an open mind about this. Forgive me but I just honestly think jivas are always marginal potency, by their very nature. All that means is, they can either be in material nature (when they are forgetful) or in spiritual nature (when they act in full knowledge according to their own true, spiritual nature).

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 17th, 2007
88 Akruranatha

Purport, B.G. 6.2:

“The living entity has no separate independent identity. He is the marginal energy of the Supreme. When he is entrapped by material energy, he is conditioned, and when he is Krishna conscious, or aware of the spiritual energy, then he is in his real and natural state of life.”

Note that Srila Prabhupada does not say, “When he is entrapped by material energy, he is ‘marginal’.” He never qualifies it like that, anywhere in his books.

It is always the same formula, over and over again. The living entity *is* “marginal.” That means he can be trapped in material nature or liberated in spiritual nature.

Here is another one, from S.B. 1.14.32, Purport:

“The Lord remembers them all, but His associates, although liberated souls, forget due to their being tatastha sakti, or marginal potency of the Lord. That is the difference between the visnu-tattva and the jiva-tattva. The jiva-tattvas are infinitessimal potential particles of the Lord, and therefore they require the protection of the Lord at all times.”

Here, we are advised that even liberated jivas forget their past descents with Krishna to earth, because they are marginal.

Maybe it is putting too fine a point on it to say that in this passage Srila Prabhupada is saying that the liberated jivas, at least when they descend to earth with Krishna, are marginal potency.

It does seem that in this passage, Srila Prabhupada is saying that being marginal potency (equated with infinitessimal potential particles) is what makes us jiva-tattva as opposed to vishnu-tattva.

I mean, doesn’t it honestly seem that way to you?

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 17th, 2007
89 Unregistered

Japa Jim says - “So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna”

Akruranatha Prabhu’s post was brilliant and spot on, however, we all must take a stronger stand that our ORIGINAL constitutional position is eternally nitya-siddha without any origin. We are always nitya siddha and due to being marginal, we sometimes misuse our free will to choose and forget this fact, we lose track of our original position. From another viewpoint - ‘We are always marginal whether we are as our eternal nitya-siddha body in Goloka or as our secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in the material creation.

MARGINAL MEANS - The living entities are situated between the material and spiritual potencies yet due to eternal time, which means a creation that is indestructible and imperishable, the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha, already has a perpetual bodily (svarupa) relationship with KRISHNA in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. The living entity can use their free will (that is a characteristic of being marginal) and decide at any moment to abandon their service to Krishna and the body they really are persistently and enter the material creation or mahat-tattva as a secondary ‘dreaming consciousness projection’ in search of self glorification and selfish pleasures.

Ones non-Krishna Conscious desires and thought then automatically becomes under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu and provided with ethereal and biological bodies (material vessels). Therefore every object the living entity encounters within the maha-tattva, like ethereal (subtle secular) and biological (secular) containers and there surroundings, are the inferior energies of the Lord Krishna, facilitated by His Maha Sankarsana expansion Balarama who is the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and creator of the mahat-tattva

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they can be surrounded by the Superior energy or be covered by the inferior energy.

The inferior energy has no life and is only moved by life, moved by the marginal entities nitya-baddha consciousness and simultaneously Maha-Vishnu as the supersoul that accompanies every jiva-bhutah.(nitya-baddha)

In this way both the nitya siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness are expression of the jiva-tatastha (marginal living entity)

The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya baddha body is fully dependant in Goloka. All the ethereal and biological vessels (material bodies) are provided by Maha-Vishnu via His representatives like Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva and the 33,000,000 demigods so that the marginal living entity in their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness can obtain vessels in Maha-Vishnu’s creation according to their Karma.

Akruranatha - That is what Srila Prabhupada mean by marginal potency or “tatastha shakti”. It refers to the eternally minute, dependent, subordinate, fragmental characteristic of the jiva. This constitutional attribute of the jiva exists even when the jiva serves the Lord in a perfect spiritual body that is qualitatively just like the Lord’s body. He is always “marginal potency”.

I would like to add further and stress the fact - ‘And the full potential of the marginal living entity or jiva-tatastha is their eternally nitya-siddha svarupa body that is eternally founded, protected and sheltered in Goloka beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva’s (material creations) temporary and decaying reality.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?’
Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly… The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada establishes the fact that the original and eternal expression and bodily identity of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) is nitya-siddha.

“That is called svarupa-siddhi. You have got original relationship with Krishna. Nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti. Chaitanya-charitamrita. Room conversation, April 25, 1977, Bombay

Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. Room conversation, April 25, 1977, Bombay

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 17th, 2007
90 Unregistered

I wrote - ‘The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya baddha body is fully dependant in Golok’.

It should read - ‘The nitya-baddha consciousness is also fully dependant on Maha-Vishnu like the marginal living entities nitya-SIDDHA’s body is fully dependant in Goloka on their selfless Krishna Conscious service to the Lord’.

Hare Krishna, in the service of Srila Prabhupada. Bhakta Rod

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 17th, 2007
91 Unregistered

Akruranatha says - “Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.” Yes, that is correct and very easily understood, Jai Prabhupada!

Japa Jim does not correctly understand - “The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 purport,

Japa Jim says - ‘So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna”.

Yes, that is also true however; you miss the point that they (the marginal living entities) are also situated in Goloka and Vaikuntha in their perpetual Krishna conscious bodily condition or svarupa.

‘By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.’ Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is.

On the other hand, the following description of the marginal living entity (jiva-tatastha) taken from various other sects, leaves a very strong impression of Impersonalism that makes many believe the jiva-tatastha or the marginal living entity is actually in the appearance of an impersonal sparks, atoms and molecules that has polluted the thinking of many studying the Vedas.

The following is a misleading concept - “The brahmajyoti, the non differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non differentiated character. The rays of the Lord’s transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms. Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication”.

Such comments are very, very misleading and only cause many to believe the marginal living entity (tatastha s’akti) originates from an impersonal source. This ‘impersonal’ description and origin of the jiva-tatastha is rejected by Srila Prabhupada

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 17th, 2007
92 Akruranatha

Okay, Japa Jim, here is one more quotation for you, near the end of the long Purport to CC, Adi-Lila 5.41:

“Because the living entity can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency.”

This is the basic theme that Srila Prabhupada repeats over and over with respect to marginal potency.

He could very easily have said, if that is what he really meant: “When the jiva appears in matter, he is called the marginal potency, and when he appears in spirit, he is called [fill in the blank] (a ‘parishad of Krishna with a body made of sandhini shakti’?)”

Repeatedly Srila Prabhupada said a jiva is marginal because he can either be in the spiritual energy or the external energy. To me, that seems undeniably to mean that he remains marginal in both circumstances. A jiva may be marginal potency while in the spiritual energy, or marginal potency while in the material energy.

I agree of course, that the marginal jiva actually is spiritual, a spirit soul, “para prakrti” as opposed to “bhinna prakrti”. The marginal jiva properly belongs in spiritual energy, and when he is situated in material energy he experiences duality, enduring a temporary life of misery.

Please do not take it that we are debating and there is a winner and loser. We are all winners as we study Srila Prabhupada’s books together. We are engaged in “sravanam” by hearing from the proper source, and we are also learning better how to engage in “kirtanam” by properly repeated Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 17th, 2007
93 Akruranatha

“The brahmajyoti, the non differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non differentiated character . . . ”

Once again Bhakta Rod, I would find it helpful if when you introduce a quotation like this that you also povide a citation as to the source or author.

I can tell by reading it that the author is a Gaudiya Vaisnava. The phraseology of a “pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti”, drawing on the material science of Optics, almost certainly has its origin in the writings of Om Vishnupada Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Maharaja Prabhupada.

(We in ISKCON may be unconscious of the debt that we have, that so much of our vocabulary comes from the writings of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Even though Srila Prabhupada’s books are in simpler, more accessible language, many of the key English words and phrases that are second nature to us are words we inherited from Srila Prabhupada’s guru maharaja.)

The passage quoted describes a history of the origins of jivas that our Srila Prabhupada did not describe for us. I agree with Bhakta Rod that it could misleadingly suggest to some readers that the impersonal brahmajyoti, if it is the place of “origin” for jivas, may be their natural home, whereas we know that we all belong to Krishna and that active devotional service in the spiritual sky is our true constitutional position.

The author of the passage clearly is no impersonalist, however. The “side of dedication” is being extolled.

Nevertheless, our atheistic tendency (arising from our envy of Krishna) is so ingrained in us that hearing of the brahmajyoti as a place of “origin” of jivas might inspire us to think that devotional service is an artificial state, less natural to us than impersonal inactive “merging”. If we think that way, we are deluded and misled.

(If we think that way, we also almost surely will be misunderstanding the intent of the passage’s author.)

I have to say, (I am being repetitive), that I am uncomfortable with Bhakta Rod’s tone. When we talk of “various other sects” leaving a “strong impression of impersonalism”, it seems like we are throwing down a gauntlet and possibly picking a fight with some of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers or their followers. As a matter of proper etiquette and decorum, we should not express these things in such a pejorative and combative way.

I mean, even though Bhakta Rod does not tell us who wrote the passage, we can tell it is a Gaudiya Math passage. (I shudder to think it may be from Srila B.R. Sridhar Maharaja or even from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja himself.) Srila Prabhupada would want us to tread lightly here and not even run the risk of appearing to publicly insult such persons.

Leaving out the name of the author does not lessen the impact that the author is being criticised for belonging to a (bad, or at least inferior) “sect” that, to at least some extent, is accused of aiding and abetting impersonalism.

There may be other reasons why the author chose to express himself this way. Maybe he was appealing to the impersonalistic mentality in order to draw impersonalists to Vaisnavism. Maybe the author is repeating some bona fide account that exists in the Vedic scriptures. The Vedic sruti is mostly expressed in abstract intellectual language that points to personalism but rarely discloses the lilas of the Lord and his pure devotees.

I am speculating here and I do not pretend to know why the author wrote in this way, but I strongly believe we have to be careful how we express our disagreement with this passage.

It is more an issue of etiquette and mood than of philosophy. I am not saying we should restrain ourselves from pointing out that the quoted passage is different from what Srila Prabhupada taught. I agree with Bhakta Rod that we should encourage people to understand how Srila Prabhupada’s instructions on the subject differ and are superior.

We just have to do it in such a way that we avoid even the appearance of disrespect for other Gaudiya Vaisnavas who are our superiors.

Just to make myself perfectly clear, when I say “avoiding the appearance,” I do not mean cleverly concealing our real disrespect. I mean the opposite, in the sense that judges have to avoid even the appearance of bias. I mean, even though we have no disrespect whatsoever in our hearts, we have to go further and make sure we do not do or say anthing that even might cause someone to *think* we are disrespectful.

Remaining faithful and true to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings may require us to note some distinction between something he said and something said by one of his godbrothers, but it also requires us to be properly respectful to the persons who are our superiors. That is another important aspect of “personalism.”

Philosophy has its place, but in Krishna consciousness it takes a back seat to good behavior. Jnana, or knowledge of the spirit soul and its relation to matter, is not enough. We have to learn to *act* in the status of spirit soul. Such action involves using discretion and caution if we thik we have found something disagreeable in the writings of senior Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 18th, 2007
94 Japa Jim

Akruranatha says:

“The passage quoted describes a history of the origins of jivas that our Srila Prabhupada did not describe for us.”

That is not true.

Read this purport from Sri Isopanisada text 17,

Sri Isopanishad 17 purport,
Quote:
“As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.”

So, there you have it.
Srila Prabhupada didn’t manufacture anything new.
He taught the same thing that the Vedas have been teaching for thousands of years.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 19th, 2007
95 Unregistered

Akruranatha - “I agree with Bhakta Rod that it could misleadingly suggest to some readers that the impersonal Brahmajyoti, if it is the place of “origin” for jivas, may be their natural home, whereas we know that we all belong to Krishna and that active devotional service in the spiritual sky is our true constitutional position. The author of the passage clearly is no impersonalist, however. The “side of dedication” is being extolled”.

It should be made apparent that the philosophy I quoted from another ’sect’ unfortunately IS misleading and DOES leave the impression to many that our origins are from an impersonal source, that’s the point I am making in all humility.

As Prabhupada once said, ‘if the shoe fits then wear it”. Also Akruranatha’s idea that the author of the quote made might be appealing to impersonalists is interesting. However, all over the Internet, such a quote clearly and very openly suggest and encourages the false idea we have never been to Goloka and that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti.

We have to be very careful in our diplomacy and even discrete with such sects who promote that the impersonal Brahmajyoti is our origins, no matter who they choose to quote. It should also be made clear, it is the way they are quoting the Vedas that is the problem and NOT the Vedas and the great Acharayas of the past.

It a fact when one accepts the direct meaning of the Sastra it is understood that the jivas are tatastha-sakti - i.e. they are the marginal potency of Krishna however, what is the original perpetual position of the jiva tatastha?

The Brhadaranyaka Upanisad states that the marginal position of the jiva:

“The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds”. (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.9)

Then our original position is explained -

However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence”. CC Madhya 22.107:

Another misleading quote that fuels the idea our origin as are from some impersonal collective is as follows - “Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rati, or santa-rasa (neutrality) due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realisation, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time”

From Sastra and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada it is quite clear that there is possibility of fall down from the spiritual world, Vaikuntha or even Goloka Vrndavana due to free will. The fact that other sects preach their idea that one can never fall down apa-siddhanta (false conclusion) from the spiritual world is indeed sentimental and misleading.

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity. Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 19th, 2007
96 Unregistered

Japa Jim says – “As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.” Sri Isopanishad 17 purport

And what is “the full sense of existence?” It is our original position of nitya-siddha as Srila Prabhupada has told us.’

“Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”. Srila Prabhupada.

So how do we fall down?

How can anyone argue against this clear explanation from Srila Prabhupada? It is clear that if one is Krishna conscious then they will remain in Goloka as their eternal ‘svarupa’ body that is always there regardless. If they are not, then they ‘sub-consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva (material creation) via their thoughts, dreams and desires as nitya baddha and not as their nitya-siddha body.

It is clear that the original position, full potential and the perpetual bodily state of jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is nitya-siddha

Could it be a complete misunderstanding of our eternal presents in Vaikuntha or Goloka by so many in our present pioneering generation that we can never fall down? It is true that the jiva-tatastha in our original svarupa body can never fall down as that Krishna conscious form because our svarupa identity is eternally present and can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha. This is due to the ‘eternal presents’ that exist there beyond the divided ‘presents’ of past, present and future that exists in the maha-tattva. Could this be the correct understanding that one can never fall down from Goloka? If that is the case then there is no argument because our genuine bodily identity can never fall down, we only think we are fallen or dream we are fallen.

Our understanding of the teachings of Jiva Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura etc and all bona fide devotees in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya comes from the teachings of the most resent Acharaya in the Brahma Gaudiya disciplic succession and that is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

“Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 19th, 2007
97 Akruranatha

Japa Jim:

The quotation you provided from Sri Isopanishad does not purport to explain the “origin” of jivas or whether conditioned jivas have “ever” been in Vaikuntha. It is not controversial. I am sure Bhakta Rod will have no difficulty distinguishing it from the statements of those who say the jivas in the material world have “never” been in Vaikuntha.

Bhakta Rod:

You still have not provided the source for that quote. Can you at least expain where you got it from and whether or not you know who the author is? (If you do not know, wouldn’t you at least like to know? What would you do if it were actually written by some very senior devotee or acarya? Isn’t it reckless to criticize the author without knowing who it is? What if Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati wrote it? Would Srila Prabhupada want you to be criticising Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati? Wouldn’t you be ashamed?)

Anyway, I have given you my own advice re etiquette, for what it is worth. I have not seen any of these other arguments on other websites you mentioned, but it does not sound very productive, at least to me. Prabhupada told us not to argue about it, whether we were “first” in brahma sayujya or in vaikuntha. It is not an intelligent question.

I do accept that you are stating things pretty much as Srila Prabhupada has stated them. For that I give you credit. My concern is that you are wasting your time arguing about something we should not argue about and could end up insulting people we should not insult.

I do not know when or in what context Srila Prabhupada said “if the shoe fits, wear it”, but I can tell you without doubt he would not want it to be used as an excuse for us to criticize his spiritual master’s writings (if that turns out to be where the quote came from).

In the Fourth Canto there is a story about how Daksha insulted Lord Shiva at a sacrifice and soon curses were flying everywhere. It is amazing sometimes how arguments can spring up out of nowhere and partisans of one or another side get caught up in the whirlpool. When this happens in the society of devotees it is a catastrophe. We need to unify and bring the Maha Mantra and Srimad Bhagavatam to a world gone haywire that is dying for this mercy of Lord Caitanya.

This is one whirlpool I would advise you to stay out of, but you and I have never met in person, and I am sure my freely offered advice will not carry much weight with you. I can see you have already invested a good deal of your attention in arguing about this and it must be something you will could not give up easily, even if you wanted to. I understand you believe you are helping spread Srila Prabhupada’s mission by arguing about it. I can see why you think that, and I have pretty much explained why I disagree.

As I have said before, I wish we could just declare a moratorium on all “jiva fall” debating. There are so many other things we could very productively talk about, but we need to get the habit or knack of having conversations in which we appreciate the realizations offered by others and then add some other realization or citation. Mostly, we are accustomed to the mode of pointing out each other’s faults (and I guess I have been doing that, too, for which I apologize).

Even though I usually never know when to quit talking, I think I’ll quit now, at least on this subject. I say this in all friendship and hope we do meet face to face and hear and chant and go on sankirtan together someday.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 19th, 2007
98 Unregistered

Akruranatha statement that. Quote: - “The passage quoted describes a history of the origins of jivas that our Srila Prabhupada did not describe for us. I agree with Bhakta Rod that it could misleadingly suggest to some readers that the impersonal brahmajyoti, if it is the place of “origin” for jivas, may be their natural home, whereas we know that we all belong to Krishna and that active devotional service in the spiritual sky is our true constitutional position.

Srila Prabhupada describes how we fell down from Vaikuntha.

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

“Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration . . . After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna.” - “The Origin of the Jiva” Australian conversation with Prabhupada

“We have come from the spiritual world into this material world. We have forgotten our Father. So we have to revive this relationship with our Father . . . God or Krishna.” - Lecture on October 7, 1975

“But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . . ” - Letter to Jagadisha das Adhikari on April 25, 1970

“Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 - 770218SB.MAY

And what is the full sense of existence as described in the Sri Isopanishad - “Originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha” Srila Prabhupada - Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 - 770218SB.MAY

It is clear that the original position, full potential and the perpetual bodily state of jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is nitya-siddha

” . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment . . . so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974

It is clear that if one is Krishna conscious then they will remain in Goloka as their eternal ‘svarupa’ body that is always there regardless. If they are not, then they ‘sub-consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva (material creation) via their thoughts, dreams and desires as nitya baddha and not as their nitya-siddha body, this is confirmed clearly by Srila Prabhupada -

“Actually, we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But . . . we have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation. Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: ‘All right. Imitate’. . . So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually, we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. . . we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. . . We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. . . This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated.” - Bhagavatam lecture in Tokyo, April 20, 1972.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 19th, 2007
99 Japa Jim

Srila Prabhupada says in Krishna Book: Ch. 20, Description of Autumn;

“The brahmajyoti–spiritual effulgence–is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free.”

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 19th, 2007
100 Japa Jim

Srila Prabhupada:
“Our Knowledge Is Not Knowledge”

Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.03
Bombay, December 15, 1974

“So, so long the sun is there, the sunshine is there. Sunshine means the combination of the bright molecules, molecular part. Similarly, we are parts of the brahmajyoti. Brahmajyoti means combination of unlimited living entities. Svayam-jyotih, it is said. Svayam-jyotir visvam. Svayam-jyotir visvam yena samanvitam. That jyoti is spread all over the universe, all over the universe. So the living entities are there just like sunshine is spread all over the universe. And what is the sunshine? A combination of small bright particles. Similarly, we are also bright, jyoti. And that is realization, aham brahmasmi, that “I am also small particle jyoti, and the Supreme Brahman is also jyoti…” Yasya prabha [Bs. 5.40]. And what is this prabha, this prabha, this jyoti? It is Krsna’s bodily rays.”

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 19th, 2007
101 Japa Jim

Krishna Book - Ch. 89 , The Superexcellent Power of Krishna:

“”My dear Arjuna, the glaring effulgence, the transcendental light which you are seeing, is My bodily rays. O chief of the descendants of Bharata, this brahmajyoti is Myself.” As the sun disc and the sunshine cannot be separated, similarly Krsna and His bodily rays, the brahmajyoti, cannot be separated. Thus Krsna claimed that the brahmajyoti is He Himself. This is clearly stated in the Harivamsa, when Krsna says, “aham sah.” The brahmajyoti is a combination of the minute particles known as spiritual sparks, or the living entities known as citkana. The Vedic word so’ham, or “I am the brahmajyoti,” can also be applied to the living entities, who can also claim to belong to the brahmajyoti. In the Harivamsa, Krsna further explains, “This brahmajyoti is an expansion of My spiritual energy.”

Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati says in the purport to Brahma-samhita 5.16:

“The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities.”

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 19th, 2007
102 Unregistered

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 21st, 2007
103 Unregistered

“This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination”. (Bhag.11.2.38)

“just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you… Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you… Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Comment (personal realizations I would like to share) - It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 22nd, 2007
104 Japa Jim

According to Srila Prabhupada in Krishna Book, we have not yet had association with Krishna, because he says that if a devotee becomes perfect he gets to take birth in a universe where Krishna’s pastimes are being manifest and at that time gets his FIRST OPPORTUNITY to associate with Krishna.

Obviously, the statement that “first opportunity” indicates that we have never before had an opportunity to associate with Krishna.

As such, there is no possibility of falling from Krishna’s service and association if we are still waiting for our “first opportunity” to associate with Krishna in Gokula Vrindavan as it is being manifest in a material universe.

If we already have a body in Goloka that is in a coma then we would be able to go straight back to that body. Since we don’t already have a body in Goloka as some person is saying, then we have to take birth in Gokula Vrindavan to establish our spiritual relationship with Krishna and attain a spiritual body which we don’t presently have at this time.

Krishna Book ch. 28
[QUOTE]The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.[/QUOTE]

so, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka.
We have never been in Goloka to fall from there.

There is no falling from Goloka.
The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 23rd, 2007
105 Unregistered

Jappa Jim says - “So, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka.
We have never been in Goloka to fall from there. There is no falling from Goloka.
The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita”.

Yes, He is exactly right as Srila Prabhupada has ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO GET THROUGHT TO US. Try to understand that our svarupa body can never fall from Goloka -

“Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all, when the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

The following verse from Krsna Book refers to souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE and on their way to re-establishing their relationship with Krishna, therefore they first go to a place in the material world where Krishna is having His transcendental pastimes before they go back home, back to Godhead and awakened to their perpetual “svarupa body” that has always been in Goloka -

“Those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.” Srila Prabhupadas Krsna Book

It is very clear that Krsna Book is referring to the conditioned souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE (the mahat-tattva) and on their way back to re-establishing or reawakening their eternal svarupa bodily relationship with Krishna that is perpetually founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Krsna’s pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna’s appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe.

Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will

Prabhupada - So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

Vipina - Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada - He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

Vipina - Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: - That means you lose your independence.

Vipina - And no love.

Prabhupada - That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape? - 760708ed.wdc Conversations.

We always have choice, even in Goloka

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 24th, 2007
106 Gauragopala dasa

Jappa Jim says - “so, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka.
We have never been in Goloka to fall from there”

That is not what Srila Prabhupada taught us: -

It’s complicated because technically we do not fall down in our eternal body as Bhakta Rod explains from quoting Prabhupada.

Therefore here Srila Prabhupada explains further that we CAN fall down from ‘our devotional service’ in Goloka. That’s a another way of seeing it from a different angle of perception than trying to explain over and over again, that factually we can never ever fall down as our eternal bodily form in Goloka. Our svarupa is always there in Goloka serving Krishna : -

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

“A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

“The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position”. - Sri Caitanya’s Teachings, p. 101.

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original,
spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes. In its diseased condition, the spirit soul engages in material activities under the material covering. Real sense enjoyment is possible only when the disease of materialism is removed. In our real spiritual form, free from all material contamination, pure enjoyment of the senses is possible”. Srī Isopanisad 11 Srila Prabhupada’s purport Text 11 purport

The pratisthacharya of the Sri sampradaya, Srila Ramanujacharya also explains the jiva has an original perpetual bodily form -

atma-svarupa-matrasya prag eva siddhatve’pi karma-bandha-vinirmuktaparicchinna-jnanadi-svarupasya hy atravirbhava ucyate.

“Here it’s stated that the specific form of the jiva’s constitutional body was known, existing in perfection. Upon the manifestation of that form of unlimited knowledge, the jiva is freed from karmic bondage”. - Vedanta-sara commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.4.2

“Upon attaining the goal of the Supreme Soul, He serves in his own personal luster and colour and in his own personal form of bliss. At that time, the jiva again attains his imperishable form, completely uncovered and free from impediment”. - Pada-ratnavali commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Jiva Gosvami’s commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam is states the jiva has an eternal form without beginning 11.11.3:

vastuto nitya-mukto’pi pratitito ‘nadi-baddha

iti yugapad ubhayatvam ghatata ity arthah.

“Simultaneously, both are transpiring: the jiva is eternally liberated in substantive form and is bound without beginning”.

We are considered eternally conditioned, because it has been such a long, long time. The history can never be traced out. The history may well be previous to this kalpa’s Brahma. The history of our conditioning is before the material creation:

“And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are–I mean to say–sent to this material world”. - Srila Prabhupada Lecture, Buffalo, April 23, 1969

“We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Srila Prabhupada letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

NOTE - Eternally conditioned means nitya baddha. Eternally liberated means nitya siddha

The eternal condition of the jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is their perpetual bodily form that is always in Vaikuntha, even if they are in a state of non devotional Krishna Conscious stupor in the material universe.

Comment posted by Gauragopala dasa on October 24th, 2007
107 Japa Jim

Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya
Quote:

When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy.

end quote

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.3.34

anantāvyakta-rūpeṇa

yenedam akhilaḿ tatam

cid-acic-chakti-yuktāya

tasmai bhagavate namaḥ

SYNONYMS

ananta-avyakta-rūpeṇa — by the unlimited, unmanifested form; yena — by which; idam — this; akhilam — total aggregate; tatam — expanded; cit — with spiritual; acit — and material; śakti — potency; yuktāya — unto he who is endowed; tasmai — unto him; bhagavate — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; namaḥ — I offer my respectful obeisances.

TRANSLATION

Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, who in his unlimited, unmanifested form has expanded the cosmic manifestation, the form of the totality of the universe. He possesses external and internal energies and the mixed energy called the marginal potency, which consists of all the living entities.

end quote.

So, it appears from these two references that marginal energy is when spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance and becomes a mixture of internal and external energy.

This condition does not apply to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha/Goloka, so it seems that we cannot really apply the “marginal” designation to them.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 24th, 2007
108 Unregistered

With interest I read these texts. By the way Shrila Prabhupada advises us “to leave the marginal position” (Lecture SB 1.15.36, 14.12.73, Los Angeles). Shrila Prabhupada explains in this lecture that we have only to move a little bit from the boarder line in direction to the spiritual world to get out of the marginal position.

This supports the argument that the marginal position of the living entity is really not an etarnal state but only as long as one is not under the shelter of the spiritual energy. I support therefore the conclusion that the eternal associates of Krishna (nitya-siddhas) are not marginal. They are eternally liberated, without exceptions. The falldown creates a parallel existence (like a dream, which is real) and this parallel existence is called marginal. So the fallen living being is simultanious one and different from the nitya-siddha-source.

For practical reasons - as was explained here already - it is most important to concentrate on our business to get out of the marginal position by bhakti-yoga to go back to godhead.

In a comment in Chaitanya Charitamrita - which I will deliver tomorrow - Shrila Prabhupada cites a comment of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, where it is said that even a pure devotee in the category of jiva-tattva can progress to higher positions!!!! Sorry it is to late now. I will bring the quote tomorrow! For sure!

All in all it seems to me that eternal associates of Shri Krishna in the spiritual world can not be called jivas in a marginal position.

your servant
Parivadi das

Comment posted by Parivadi das on October 24th, 2007
109 Unregistered

So here is the quote of the Shrila Prabhupadas lecture on Shrimad Bhagavatam (1.15.36) given in Los Angeles on 14.12.73:

“So now the conclusion is that because we are marginal, in between the spiritual nature and the material nature, although we are spiritual, although our real nature is na jayate na mrityate, we never take birth, never die, but on account of our contact with material nature, we are getting this material body and the body is changing. … Body is changing. And that we have taken as our nature, birth and death. That is not our nature. We are spirit soul. WE ARE PUT INTO MARGINAL because … Just like the margin is explained: tatastha. That is … We have translated into “marginal”. Just like we go on the Pacific beach. Some day we find the water is covering the beach, and some day we see it is open. There is no water. So that is called marginal. Marginal. Sometimes it is covered by water; sometimes there is no water. Similarly, we, being marginal potency, we are sometimes influenced by this material nature, not always. Because at the present moment for sometimes we are under the material nature, now, if we try, then we can get out of this covering of material nature and come to the spiritual nature. That is Krishna Consciousness Movement. Krishna Consciousness Movement means don’t remain in the marginal position. Come in the land so there will be no disturbance by the water. This is the position. If you remain on the marginal position, then sometimes you will be covered by the water and sometimes it will be dry. BUT IF YOU LITTLE COME FORWARD THIS SIDE, LAND SIDE, THE OCEAN HAS NO POWER TO TOUCH YOU. But Krishna is not like that, and that is described here. Although Krishna left this world, that does not mean that He left this world as we leave. Our leaving this world means we are leaving this material world and accepting another body. Therefore, at the present moment WE ARE NOT IN OUR OWN BODY …”

My understanding is therefore that we have lost our nitya-siddha-body to dream in the tatastha-land, in a marginal position, which we should leave to go back to our eternal position in our nitya-siddha-body.

So our nitya-siddha-body exists simalteniously with our tatastha-expansion (dreamlike state).

y. s.
Parivadi das

Comment posted by Parivadi das on October 25th, 2007
110 Unregistered

Regarding the developement of a devotee we find the following comment of Shrila Prabhupada (CC Adi-lila 7.17):

In connection with verses 16 and 17, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Prabhupada explains in his Anubhasya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Shri Caitanya Mahäprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love. … By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu, one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord’s pastimes in Vrindavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvämés, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krishna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee’s promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krishna in an intimate relationship with Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. …”

In Vers 15 of Chapter 7 it is described that shakti-tattva and jiva-tattva are a fourth principle besides the three prabhus. I must agree that I have no glimpse of understanding why the categories leaded by gadadhara prabhu and Shrivasa Thakura are put together as a fourth principle. I always had the understanding that Shri Gadadhara Pandit represents the tattva of internal energies of the Lord, headed by Shrimati Radharani, whereas Shri Shrivasa Thakura represents the pure devotees in the jiva-tattva-category. In the comment to 7.14 Shrila Prabhupada comments that the “the jiva-tattva servitor, the spiritual master, is actually the servitor god.” In Vers 4, Chapter 7, the category of Shri Shrivas Thakur is called marginal potency but is taken also as shakti of the Lord. So both, the internal and the marginal potency, are taken as shaktis.

From this it seems to me that the pure devotee in the marginal position is an expansion of a devotee in the internal position. HH Tamal Krishna Gosvami explained that for instance Narada Muni has also a form in the inner circle of Shri Krishnas pasttimes in Goloka; means that Narada Muni is a pure devotee, acting as an expansion in the marginal position (category of Shri Shrivasa Thakura).

Shrila Prabhupada writes in a letter to Saradia (12.12.1968):

“My dear Saradia,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your recent letter and I have noted the contents with pleasure. Your kind thoughts which you expressed are very nice and encouraging to me. Also you have asked some intelligent questions and I am answering them here.
You have asked how Krishna is with the spirit soul in the spiritual world and the answer is that Krishna is the heart of the spirit soul, or spiritual body, So Krishna is never apart from us. Either He remains in the heart of the material body, or He remains in the heart of the spiritual body. This is Krishna’s Causeless mercy to all of His beloved children, or living entities.
To answer your second question, you should know that Arjuna and Kunti Devi are not in Krishna Loka. They are eternally associated with Krishna only in the material world. Just like Krishna is always in the spiritual world, so similarly He is always in the material world, Krishna also has eternal associates, such as Arjuna and Kunti Devi. There is a difference between the body and the soul of Arjuna and Kunti Devi. But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still THERE IS ONLY ONE SPIRIT SOUL WHO IS ARJUNA. THIS SPIRIT SOUL EXPANDS INTO MANY DIFFERENT BODIES AND THUS YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE ALSO INCARNATIONS OF DEVOTEES AS WELL AS INCARNATIONS OF KRISHNA. THIS IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT SOUL, THAT IT IS UNLIMITED. THIS CONCEPTION CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD WHILE ONE IS STILL IN THE CONDITIONED STATE.

Your ever well-wisher
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

From this I conclude that we can not restrict our conceptions on the point that a spiritual soul has only one manifestation. A spirit soul can be at many places simultaniously. At the moment I am aware only as this conditioned Parivadi dasa who writes these text and is astonished of how much he does not know. I have to admit that most facts are unknown to me still as I am a fallen conditioned soul. Our primary duty is to work on our upliftment. But I think it is not a sin to sometimes go into these acintya-realms but it should not be our main focus. We have to be patient.

y. s.
Parivadi das

Comment posted by Parivadi das on October 25th, 2007
111 Unregistered

Jappa Jims understanding of the marginal living entity is incorrect. He says - “So, it appears from these two references that marginal energy is when spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance and becomes a mixture of internal and external energy. This condition does not apply to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha/Goloka, so it seems that we cannot really apply the “marginal” designation to them”.

The accurate meaning of tatastha s’akti should be correctly understood. This is explained very nicely by Urdhvaga das

“The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

“Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency” CC Adi 5.41 pp.

“The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. ” BG 8.3 pp.

“The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. ” BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord’s two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our ‘original position’. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

“Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.

Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health.”
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Comment -In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti or the ‘collective’ jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) consequently can appear also in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu)

It is in this way that the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not represent the full potential OR Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of the marginal living entity that is eternally present in Goloka. The jiva-tatasthas souls situated in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are therefore in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness that, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 25th, 2007
112 Japa Jim

The “svarupa” of the jiva is perfectly explained by Lord Chaitanya in his teachings to Srila Rupa Goswami.
Despite some ideas that the original svarupa of the jiva was a spiritual body as an associate of Krishna in Goloka/Vaikuntha, Lord Chaitanya describes the “svarupa” of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

Here is Lord Chaitanya’s definitive and unambiguous pronouncement on the “svarupa” of the living entity.

quote:
Chapter 19: Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu Instructs Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

keśāgra-śateka-bhāga punaḥ śatāḿśa kari

tāra sama sūkṣma jīvera ’svarūpa’ vicāri

SYNONYMS

keśa-agra — from the tip of a hair; śata-eka — one hundred; bhāga — divisions; punaḥ — again; śata-aḿśa — one hundred divisions; kari — making; tāra sama — equal to that; sūkṣma — very fine; jīvera — of the living entity; svarūpa — the actual form; vicāri — I consider.

TRANSLATION

“The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity.

end quote.

Lord Chaitanya instructed Srila Rupa Goswami that the original svarupa of the jiva and the original subtle nature of the jiva was as a spirit spark 1/10,000th the size the tip of a hair.

The theory that we have a spiritual form in Goloka that we have lost remembrance of necessitates that maya penetrated the svarupa-shakti of Vaikuntha/Goloka and influenced the jiva to forget Krishna.
Maya cannot influence the liberated devotees of Krishna in the spiritual world.
Maya cannot enter there to do her work.

quote:

Chapter 9: Answers by Citing the Lord’s Version

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10

pravartate yatra rajas tamas tayoḥ

sattvaḿ ca miśraḿ na ca kāla-vikramaḥ

na yatra māyā kim utāpare harer

anuvratā yatra surāsurārcitāḥ

SYNONYMS

pravartate — prevail; yatra — wherein; rajaḥ tamaḥ — the modes of passion and ignorance; tayoḥ — of both of them; sattvam — the mode of goodness; ca — and; miśram — mixture; na — never; ca — and; kāla — time; vikramaḥ — influence; na — neither; yatra — therein; māyā — illusory, external energy; kim — what; uta — there is; apare — others; hareḥ — of the Personality of Godhead; anuvratāḥ — devotees; yatra — wherein; sura — by the demigods; asura — and the demons; arcitāḥ — worshiped.

TRANSLATION

In that personal abode of the Lord, the material modes of ignorance and passion do not prevail, nor is there any of their influence in goodness. There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy; it cannot enter that region. Without discrimination, both the demigods and the demons worship the Lord as devotees.

end quote.

So, considering that maya cannot enter the spiritual world and tempt the devotees, we have to conclude that the theory of the dormant spiritual body in the spiritual world cannot be factual.

A fall from Goloka necessitates that maya has penetrated the svarupa-shakti and put devotees into illusion.

According to the shastric siddhanta this is an impossibility.

Mahaprabhu has properly narrated the svarupa of the jiva as being a spirit spark 1/10,000 the size the tip of a hair.
Anything beyond this idea is speculation that cannot be verified by shastra.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 25th, 2007
113 Unregistered

It seems it is very difficult for many of us to understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. To many of us the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not correctly understood.

The fact is that many devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending ‘present’ as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. ” BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

“Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) ‘This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non Krishna conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha.

“Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 25th, 2007
114 Unregistered

So the tatastha region is in between the spiritual and material worlds, and is where the living beings are manifested. The Brihadaranyaka Upanishad (4.3.9 & 18) describes it like so: “A person has two places: the spiritual world and the place where the spiritual world meets another world. There is also a third place, a place of dreams [the material domain]. Standing between them, the soul sees on one side the spiritual world and on the other the place of dreaming. . . As a large fish in a river may go to one shore or the other, so a person may go to one world or another. He may go to a world where he is awake, or may go to a world made of dreams.”
The tatastha region is further explained by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his Jaiva Dharma (Volume Three, Chapter 15, page 70-1) as follows:

The place where a river’s waters meet with the land of the shore is called the “tata.” The “tata” is then the place where the water meets land. What is the nature of this “tata”? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A “tata” is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the “tata.” That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual souls are like the atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by maya. The Lord’s spiritual potency, chit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord’s material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-shakti of Lord Krishna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit.
The “tatastha” nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the “tata” (shore) may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he [the jiva soul] turns his gaze upon Lord Krishna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krishna’s spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krishna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya’s trap. That is what is meant by “the soul’s tatastha nature.”
The spirit souls are completely spiritual. However, because they are atomic in size, the souls are not very strong. That is why maya can dominate them. However, in the soul’s nature there is not the slightest scent of maya.

Comment posted by omdas on October 25th, 2007
115 Japa Jim

Chapter 5: Hymn to the Absolute Truth

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.21

sa nityo nitya-sambandhaḥ

prakṛtiś ca paraiva sā

SYNONYMS

saḥ — that (jīva); nityaḥ — eternal; nitya-sambandhaḥ — possessing an eternal relationship; prakṛtiḥ — potency; ca — and; parā — spiritual; eva — certainly; sā — that.

TRANSLATION

The same jīva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.

PURPORT

Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jīvas. The jīvas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jīvas, being particles of Godhead’s effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jīvas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyer, meditator and doer. Kṛṣṇa is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jīvas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jīvas are His eternal servants. Jīvas have also sufficient eligibility in respect of the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyāḿ prakṛtiḿ viddhi me parām. By this verse of the Gītā it is made known that jīvas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jīva potency. though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Māyā. This potency has another name, viz., taṭasthā or marginal potency. being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Kṛṣṇa, the Lord of Māyā, he is not liable to the influence of Māyā. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 26th, 2007
116 Unregistered

Omdas says - “So the tatastha region is in between the spiritual and material worlds, and is where the living beings are manifested”

Omdas prabhu, we (the jiva-tatasthas) have never manifested because we have always existed, we (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation. The marginal plane IS the individual independent living beings, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti therefore is NOT a position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu also correctly explained to us. The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

How have we fallen to the material world?

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings.

Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this -

“For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?”Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 - 21

“The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 - 24

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 26th, 2007
117 Unregistered

Hare Krishna,

Dear Rod prabhu I dont think there is any difference between what you are saying and what I have quoted from the Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in his Jaiva Dharma (Volume Three, Chapter 15, page 70-1) or from Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

Yes some words are diffrently used both places but if you read minutely the meaning is same.

Also my personal experience in reading shastra is that many times same words are used contradictly to send a perticullar message but if you try to understand the meaning in whole then every thing totals up to same only (I am talking about shastras that we read in Vaishnav understanding). So personally I have stoped scrutinising all this things just to keep my self in peace. Please do not take this as I am suggesting you to do the same, infact I enjoyed reading different opinions from devotees like you.

Your Aspiring Servant,

Comment posted by omdas on October 26th, 2007
118 Unregistered

Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 26th, 2007
119 Unregistered

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Prabhupada - “originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya
zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world”

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness -

Guru-krpa - “They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . .”

Acyutananda - “The original sin”.

Sudama- “Why we are envious”.

Guru-krpa - “How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . .”

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Yes’.

Guru-krpa - “How is it that . . .

Srila Prabhupada - “That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate”.

Sudama - “It is very hard to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda - “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda - “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada - “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda - “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada - “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Acyutananda - “In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in

Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krishna’s associates?”

Srila Prabhupada - “Yes”.

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972
When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 27th, 2007
120 Japa Jim

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur writes in “Brahmana and Vaisnava” , Harijana-khanda:

“”Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.”

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 28th, 2007
121 Akruranatha

I am just checking back in here after a hiatus.

Parivadi Prabhu has found a passage in one lecture from Srila Prabhupada where he does in fact use “marginal” to refer to the dualistic experience of the jiva situated in material nature.

My reaction is that Srila Prabhupada is using the same term in a different sense from the way he usually uses it (i.e., to denote that, as a fragmental part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, the jiva may be situated either in His internal or external energy).

Parivadi Prabhu’s quotation about devotees coming under Lord Caitanya’s influence and being elevated to appreciate the more intimate mood of conjugal rasa does not, it seems to me, imply that they cease being jivas and become plenary potencies of the Lord. I think if Parivadi is interpreting it that way he should reconsider that jivas *are* “shakti” (i.e., tatastha shakti), but some jivas are serving in madhurya rasa.

The use of the word “shakti” in that passage does not mean the jivas cease to be in the category of Narada Muni and enter the category of Gadadhara Pandit. Nor does the fact that Narada has an intmate form in Goloka mean that he ever becomes a plenary expansion of Radharani and ceases being a jiva.

I do like Parivadi Prabhu’s humble mood and recognition that we are discussing things that are inconceivable and beyond the understanding of non-liberated devotees. I certainly admit I may be wrong, and I also agree that this kind of discussion is not particularly practical for me at my current level of advancement.

I have a sense that Japa Jim and Bhakta Rod are talking past each other, citing various quotations without actually “engaging” the quotations cited by the other side. I would like to see more “communication” in the sense of sympathetic listening and responding to each other’s ideas. There is an impression that the two of you are like parallel lines that will never meet.

Japa Jim continues to repeat that Srila Prabhupada never taught anything different from the Vedic sastras. I think we all accept that. Japa Jim, are you saying we don’t?

The thing is, whatever we know about the Vedic conclusions we know through Srila Prabhupada. We cannot “jump over”, or we may get a wrong understanding. We have to understand the Vedic conclusion through Srila Prabhupada.

Therefore, Japa Jim, it seems to me that you should try to explain what Srila Prabhupada is saying in all the quotations Bhakta Rod keeps repeating over and over again, rather than just coming up with “counter quotes” from previous acaryas. Otherwise, we may get the impression that *you* are the one who doubts that Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are 100% in line with all Vedic conclusions.

I have to admit that some of the quotations from Jaiva Dharma have a different “ring” to them — that is to say, they sound a little different to me than the explanations given by Srila Prabhupada (actually, not all that different).

I am sure someday I will understand all these things clearly, but in the mean time I understand that what is written by Srila Prabhupada is especially meant for me. If there is some apparent contradiction, I must look for the answers in Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and from Srila Prabhupada’s senior disciples, all the while respecting that whatever Bhaktivinode and Bhaktisidhhanta said are 100% perfect.

Maybe I am just not ready to read Jaiva Dharma. When I am ready, I will be able see it through the eyes of whatever I have learned from Srila Prabhupada. Someone told me there is a very good ISKCON translation available now. Maybe that will clear up some of the apparent contradictions. (?)

Anyway, there are all kinds of apparently contradictory statements in the Vedic scriptures. The classic example is that bones and stool of animals are impure, but conch shells and cow dung are pure. (That “contradiction” could be explained by simply recognizing that there is a more specific qualification — re conches and cows — to a generally true statement. Still, we have to learn how to accept both statements are true in their own way).

Other contradictions are inherent in understanding the transcendental nature of the Lord. He is unborn and takes birth, He walks and does not walk, He is near and also far, He performs no work and yet He works. We are used to seeing things in terms of time and space, in which such statements appear false in that they are logical contradictions. Nevertheless, to understand transcendence we have to realize how they are all true. There are many things inconceivable to our little intellects, but which can be perceived by us through His Divine Grace when we are properly engaged in submission and service.

It seems to me that descriptions of a “tatastha region” by the acaryas are either descriptions of the stage of impersonal realization or devotional service in neutrality (in which case it cannot be the natural “home” of the jivas), or a kind of metaphorical description of the jiva’s marginal quality (i.e., that by nature a jiva may be situated either in the Lord’s internal or external energy, and always has to be in one or the other). I think this is what Omdas is saying and it sounds correct to me.

But whatever these descriptions are, I cannot criticize them. If Bhaktivinode Thakur said something, we have to accept it, but if it appears different from what Srila Prabhupada said, we have to recognize there is still some defect in our understanding.

One thing we can NEVER do is think Srila Prabhupada was mistaken and we have understood Bhaktivinode Thakur better than he did. Any such hellish mentality is utter foolishness.

By the same token, we cannot just simply say that the previous acaryas were making “misleading” statements and now we are going to expose their “faults”. They are faultless. [I am afraid Bhakta Rod in his enthusiasm for certain explanations by Srila Prabhupada may be insisting that we reject a lot of other faultless statements of the acaryas and even of Srila Prabhupada in different contexts.]

[I am also a little annoyed with Bhakta Rod that he never told me where that quotation he criticized came from, or even said something like, “Sorry Akruranatha, I copied it from the internet a long time ago and I do not know who the author is”. It feels impersonal and irritating to ask a direct question and get no response. Bhakta Rod must have missed the fact that I was asking him a direct question.]

As for Japa Jim’s latest quotation from Bhaktisiddhanta (comment #120), it just seems like a description of the situation of impersonal liberation. I think it may be the word “Before” that is hanging Japa Jim up.

Japa Jim may reason, “If the living entity is situated in impersonal liberation ‘before’ engaging in material activities, and if in that stage he has a ‘lack of knowledge of self realization’ and ‘is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord’, that must mean the *original* state of the jiva is in impersonal realization.”

I think such an interpretation over emphasizes the use of the word “before”. The passage does not seem to be concerned with establishing a time line. The main sense is that impersonal liberation without devotional service is still not completely pure, as “indifference to the service of Hari” is still a kind of contamination.

The passage also mentions that the living entity is “born from the marginal potency” (which we have already discussed at length, and I believe refers to its being fragmental and hence susceptible to misuse its independence). Most importantly, however, it acknowledges that the living entity has a “direct propensity for serving the Lord” that remains dormant in him.

The whole idea of establishing a time line for the history of the jiva before it entered the realm of time (i.e., engagement in fruitive activities) does not make sense to me. It seems like just a sop for those who may need such descriptions.

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaja also famously writes, referring to Svetadvipa, “there is eternal existence of transcendental time, which is ever present without past or future and hence is not subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment”. Someday we will experience what that is like and the apparent contradictions are resolved in such experience of transcendental time.

The jiva actually belongs to that spiritual realm, where nothing decays and everyone engages unrestrictedly in the unalloyed service of the Lord. In conditioned life it falsely identifies with decaying matter which is always devoured eventually by Time.

When the jiva exists either in impersonal liberation or in fruitive activities conducted under the three gunas, that “nitya siddha krishna prema” remains dormant in his heart. Therefore his “original home” can be said to be the transcendental realm of devotional service.

As long as we all acknowledge that the essential nature of the jiva is to serve Krishna, and that such serving propensity is dormant in the heart of every jiva, what is the point of arguing with each other? (That dormant serving propensity in any event establishes our eternal kinship with the Lord, and that our natural home is Vaikuntha)

Brahma Samhita 5.21: “The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.”

From the Purport by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati: “. . . . Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to the acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency, being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krishna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.”

The idea of a “line of demarcation” as a physical place seems to be an oversimplified understanding. Bhaktisiddhanta is saying the jivas, being small and hence susceptible to the control of Maya, are *said* to be located on the line of demarcation, regardless of whether they are under the influence of material or spiritual potency.

All these descriptions of location, size, sequence, etc. must be understood in the proper sense: they are nevertheless descriptions of transcendental subject matter which by definition is beyond our customary concepts of time and space.

If someone wants to construct a “time line” and say the conditioned jiva has never yet been to the spiritual world, why should we protest? We also say “nitya baddha”, “anadi karma”, “time immemorial.” Srila Prabhupada also cites all those references, and explains that the jivas have been conditioned so long that it may as well have been for all eternity. When we are dealing with inconceivably vast amounts of time or space, we should recognize that these apparent contradictions are not important.

We should just know that any such “time line” descriptions are for the benefit of those whose minds are still addicted to thinking in terms of material past, present and future. The shastras and acaryas may give us such descriptions, and whatever they give us is perfect. [We cannot reject their descriptions as wrong.] The apparent contradictions are due to our limited capacity in our conditioned state.

Even the demigods and great sages do not know Krishna’s origins and opulences, but the pure devotees know Him due to their intimate relationship with Him. Whatever they tell us for our benefit, we accept. We also repeat their explanations when explaining to others.

Thus there may be apparently contradictory descriptions (i.e., Bhakta Rod’s description that we are eternally in Vaikuntha in a spiritual body which we have presently forgotten, and Japa Jim’s description (?) that once upon a time we “originated” on an impersonal “brahma sayujya” borderline and some unlimited 3/4 of souls went into Vaikuntha and some unlimited 1/4 went into material conditioned life and have “never yet been” to Vaikuntha but still have Krishna prema dormant in their hearts awaiting the day they may enter Vaikuntha). Both are acceptable in their own way.

Srila Prabhupada’s discussions that Bhakta Rod is quoting are more comprehensive and help to resolve apparent contradictions that presented themselves to some of his disciples.

Because we are Prabhupada’s followers, we accept his explanations, but we do not criticize those of previous acaryas or authoritative scriptures if they apparently say something different. We look for the comprehensive resolution, which Srila Prabhupada’s explanations have already given us.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 28th, 2007
122 Akruranatha

If love of Krishna is dormant in our hearts, doesn’t that mean we belong to the land of love of Krishna? As the saying goes, “Home is where the heart is.”

And Krishna says that everything spiritual and material emanates from Him. (B.G. 7.6-7; 10.8) Thus, whether or not we elsewhere are said to have our origins in the impersonal brahmajyoti (or on a “line of demarcation”), don’t we also know we have our origin in Him?

Jivas are also known as eternal. Not that there was ever a time when any given jiva did not exist (although a conditioned jiva may remain in an inactive condition of deep sleep.)

On the other hand, Krishna sometimes emphasizes His complete independence by describing Himself as the only thing that exists before the material creation or after the annihilation:

aham evasam evagre, nanyad yat sat-asat param
pascad aham yad etac ca, yo ‘vasisyeta so ’smy aham

“Brahma, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I.”

S.B. 2.9.33 (first of the four “seed” verses of the Bhagavatam)

Where are the eternal jivas in that picture? We know that there is an eternal Vaikuntha world full of transcendental activities which never perish, and yet Krishna says it is only He who exists before and after the cosmic creation.

This is another example of a seeming contradiction. We understand that, as there is no difference between the energy and the energetic, in one sense the entire spiritual creation with all of its unlimited variegated activities and personalities is “only Krishna”. In another sense, Krishna is never alone but is always enjoying dynamic, transcendental sporting activities with countless unlimited different individual persons.

The jivas may be conceived of as sparks of the brahmajyoti or as individual, eternal servants of Krishna with spiritual bodies and transcendental senses. Realization of the personal aspect is more complete.

Krishna, too, may be conceived of as Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan, and different infallable scriptures describe Him in different ways:

“The same substance is realized as impersonal Brahman by the students of the Upanisads, as localized Paramatma by the Hiranyagarbhas or yogis, and as Bhagavan by the devotees. In other words, Bhagavan, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth. Paramatma is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god. Less intelligent students of either of the above schools sometimes argue in favor of their own respective realization, but those who are perfect seers of the Absolute Truth know well that the above three features of the one Absolute Truth are different perspective views seen from different angles of vision.” (S.B. 1.2.11 Purport)

Understanding Krishna as Bhagavan, the Personality of Godhead, is very confidential:

“The secret of success in understanding the intracacies of knowledge of the Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, is the causeless mercy of the Lord. Even in the material world, the father of many sons discloses the secret of his position to the pet sons. The father discloses the confidence unto the son whom he thinks worthy. An important man in the social order can be known by his mercy only. Similarly, one must be very dear to the Lord in order to know the Lord.” (S.B. 2.9.32 Purport)

There are many authoritative Vedic literatures that merely hint at the secrets. Few literatures disclose the confidential understanding of Goloka and the intimate rasas relished there. Nevertheless, we have to pay our humble obeisances to all the Vedic literature.

A description of the jivas as having “originated” in an impersonal dividing line between fruitive activity and active transcendental devotional service may be in accord with some infallible Vedic statements. I do not know. It would not particularly bother me if such a description exists. It may be just another perspective view seen from a different angle of vision.

If Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Bhaktivinode Thakur are making such statements (I am not sure they are, but *if* they are), we certainly cannot take it upon ourselves to “defeat” them. However, we can try to understand how such statements can factually coexist alongside Srila Prabhupada’s other clear statements regarding these issues.

We need to engage and harmonize these seeming contradictions instead of letting them divide us into partisans of different respective realizations.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 28th, 2007
123 Akruranatha

Based on the sum total of what I have read (without any realization to speak of), I have always taken it that a jiva always remains a jiva.

I have to admit some confusion when it comes to descriptions of certain individuals in Caitanya Lila as being more than one individual in Krishna Lila.

For example, Sri Ramananda Raya is sometimes said to be one of the principal gopis (Vishaka?) and sometimes he is said to be Arjuna. If I am not mistaken, Srila Prabhupada acknowledges him as both.

Now, Arjuna is acknowledged to be a jiva, for example in the purport to B.G. 4.5. (However, Arjuna is a very special associate of the Lord, who also appears with Him in the Nara-Narayana Rsi incarnation, for example.)

Principal Gopis like Lalita and Vishaka, on the other hand, are plenary expansions of Sri Radha (i.e., they are not jivas).

So, my puny mundane brain wonders how Ramananda Raya could be both Arjuna and Vishaka sakhi.

I have to admit I have no answer and the actual answer is probably way over my head. I do not really feel a “need to know” this, except that if someone asks me this question it would be nice to be in a position to give an authoritative answer.

Sometimes I try to read books like H.H. Sivarama Swami’s “Krsna-sangati”. The actual answers are probably in books like that. I have dipped into such books but I do not feel ready to seriously study such things. If someone asked, I would probably tell them to ask Sivarama Swami or someone else with very advanced realizations and understanding of this sort of issue.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 30th, 2007
124 Japa Jim

Akruranatha says:
“Sometimes I try to read books like H.H. Sivarama Swami’s “Krsna-sangati”. The actual answers are probably in books like that. I have dipped into such books but I do not feel ready to seriously study such things. If someone asked, I would probably tell them to ask Sivarama Swami or someone else with very advanced realizations and understanding of this sort of issue.”

Sivarama Swami has written:

“The sadhana-siddhas are novices to Sri Krsna’s pastimes and have truly not met Him. Their purva-raga is a consequence of associating with the eternal associates.” (Venu Gita p.52 by Sivarama Swami)

Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 30th, 2007
125 Akruranatha

Thanks Japa Jim, for quoting from H.H. Sivaram Swami. I do think we may find the answers to many of these questions in his books, although I personally have only dipped a little bit into them.

These books seem to contain discussions of esoteric subjects revealed by the Six Goswamis, backed by deep realization. We can be confident that they are faithful to Srila Prabhupada’s teachings and written by one of his leading disciples, and they are written in good English, whereas I am sometimes a little leary of Gaudiya Math translations (no disrespect intended to the sincere Gaudiya Math translators).

I do want to make a study of them some day, when I have time. I still feel that they are mostly beyond my own level of what I need to know practically for improving my own sadhana. I am a very worldly devotee.

I do not own a copy of Venu Gita. What does “purva-raga” mean? Is it “purva” in the sense of “from past history”? (e.g., “mayaivaite nihitam purvam eva” — Krishna is saying in the 11th Chapter that He has already killed the warriors “by previous arrangement”)

Is Maharaja saying the sadhana-siddhas have some “past” attraction to Krishna as a consequence of their association with nitya-siddhas? Does he define “purva-raga”?

Comment posted by Akruranatha on October 30th, 2007
126 Unregistered

Classic example of purva raga: “Many saintly persons and sages like Narada Muni and others used to visit the palace of King Bhismaka. Naturally Rukmini had a chance to talk with them, and in this way she obtained information about Krsna. She was informed about the six opulences of Krsna, and simply by hearing about Him, she desired to surrender herself to His lotus feet and become His wife.”
Fifty-second Chapter of Krsna, “Krsna, the Ranacora”

Comment posted by Raghavendu on October 31st, 2007
127 Unregistered

Japa Jim says “Our siddha ’svarupa’ is currently in seed form only”.

Japa Jim seed form means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Hansadutta - “It’s not a matter of aspiring to some –

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada –”When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This ‘clearly means’ our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada - “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada - “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972
When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada - “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 31st, 2007
128 Unregistered

So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

In the Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described. In the following quotes - ”

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.137

Then Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then went on to explain the jiva’s fall down and being covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.

“Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ‘the ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe. The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kṛṣṇa says:] ‘Among minute particles, I am the living entity. “Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142

In this way Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is describing our secondary ‘dreaming’ nitya-baddha consciousness that has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature of ones marginal identity, therefore each individual living entity that chooses to project their conditional non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of their marginal identity, is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

“The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below -

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada’s Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11
“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on October 31st, 2007
129 Unregistered

Akruranatha prabhu commented on Parivadis input:

“Parivadi Prabhu’s quotation about devotees coming under Lord Caitanya’s influence and being elevated to appreciate the more intimate mood of conjugal rasa does not, it seems to me, imply that they cease being jivas and become plenary potencies of the Lord. I think if Parivadi is interpreting it that way he should reconsider that jivas *are* “shakti” (i.e., tatastha shakti), but some jivas are serving in madhurya rasa.

The use of the word “shakti” in that passage does not mean the jivas cease to be in the category of Narada Muni and enter the category of Gadadhara Pandit. Nor does the fact that Narada has an intmate form in Goloka mean that he ever becomes a plenary expansion of Radharani and ceases being a jiva.”

Parivadi responses:

I agree that devotees can not change their tattva. Therefore the conclusion may be that we have to accept that there are two main categories of shakti-tattvas originally situated in the spiritual world eternally, the direct expansions of Shri Shri Radha-Krishna like the principal gopis and secondary expansions.

The members of these categories may expand to play different roles all around creation. Arjuna for instance - as Shrila Prabhupada said - is eternally with Shri Krishna in His service to the inhabitants of the material world. But there is also the origin of Arjuna, situated in the spiritual world. Shrila Prabhupada wrote to Saradia, letter from 12.12.1968:

“But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still there is only one spirit soul who is Arjuna. This spirit soul expands into many different bodies and thus you can understand that there are also incarnations of devotees as well as incarnations of Krishna. This is the power of the spirit soul, that it is unlimited. Such conception CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD WHILE ONE IS STILL IN THE CONDITIONED STATE.”

So it is above my understanding of how an expansion relates to its origin. For instance I am not aware of my nitya-siddha-body (if I have one). The only explanation I can give is that I am one and at the same time different from my nitya-siddha-body. As long as I am dreaming I have to accept my fallen nature and work on it to get back to my original status which I am not aware of now. The question is what the nitya-siddha does at the moment which is the origin of Parivadi das. I can not answer this. Maybe he is spaced out FOR A MOMENT (which seems to be eternal in the area of matter).

Sorry, but I have no hope that we will get to a conclusion which we can understand because the acaryas say that we can not understand as long as we do not realize it by our experience. Such realizations can not be expressed in words exactly but only in terms of parables. Such parables explained from different angles may seem to be contradictory to the eye of a nonrealized person, and one should not quarrel about this too long. We have to be patient. But I want not to say that it is all in all useless to discuss such things, but it should not take too much energy so that we stay in balance and keep up with our spiritual duties.

From the letter Shrila Prabhupada wrote to Saradia I conclude that in general the understanding what a soul is, is very poor. At least I do not know what a soul is besides that the soul is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. I do not know how a soul is original situated in the spiritual energy, nor do I know how the soul expands into different entities nor do I know how these manifestations relate to each other. For instance if Narada Muni meets with Shrivasa Thakur, what is it all about: Does he meet himself? This seems to be possible. Does one realize if one meets another entity which is actually a manifestation of the same soul?

I better should meditate on the holy name now.

y. s.
Parivadi das

Comment posted by Parivadi das on October 31st, 2007
130 Akruranatha

Very well put, Parivadi Prabhu.

I was reading “Sarartha Darsini”, the 10 Canto Bhagavatam commentary by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur, translated by Bhanu Swami and published by Mahanidi Swami. There I found something interesting that *might* relate to some of the things we’ve been discussing:

At the end of Chapter 8 (Lord Krishna Shows the Universal Form From Within His Mouth to Mother Yasoda), Parikshit Maharaja asks, “What kind of austerities must Mother Yasoda and Nanda Maharaja have performed to enjoy Krishna’s childhood pastimes?” He observes that even Vasudeva and Devaki could not enjoy these pastimes, which are so great that simply chanting about them vanquishes the contamination of the material world.

In response to this question, in verses 48 - 52, Sukadeva describes that Drona, the best of the Vasus, along with his wife Dhara, prayed to Lord Brahma that they might appear in Vrajabhumi as Krishna’s mother and father, to follow the order of Lord Brahma. (Remember, when the demigods approached Lord Brahma about the earth being overrun with demons, and he received the instructions of Lord Krishna in his heart, that Krishna would soon appear, and He wanted all the demigods to take birth on earth to assist in the pastimes). Brahma granted their prayer and sent them to become Nanda and Yasoda.

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur comments that Sukadeva Goswami was not very impressed with King Parikshit’s question, because Mother Yasoda and Nanda Maharaja are actually nitya-siddha devotees and did not attain their position by any austerities. A sadhana-siddha is not qualified to attain the post of Nanda Maharaja and Yasoda Mayi.

Sukadeva considered the question inferior and he gave an inferior answer, telling about Drona and Dhara.

In the next chapter (Chapter 9), after telling the story of Mother Yasoda binding Lord Krishna, Sukadeva states (text 20) that neither Lord Brahma, Lord Shiva, nor Goddess Laksmi herself, can attain such mercy as Mother Yasoda.

In his commentary, Visvanatha explains:

“It is wrong to think that Yasoda is a sadhana-siddha, who got a boon from Brahma in her previous life as Dhara. The prema of Yasoda cannot be attained as a result of Brahma’s boon, for Brahma himself prays to become a blade of grass in Vraja. Indeed, Brahma is considered in a much lower class.”

“Sukadeva says, ‘O Pariksit! Although you know about the Nanda and Yasoda who are famous in the scriptures as nitya-siddhas, in answer to your casual question (10.8.46) about their austerities in previous lives I told the story of Drona and Dhara, who are very small expansions of Nanda and Yasoda.’”

In his commentary to text 10.8.50, Visvanatha had already explained, “Actually it should be understood that Drona and Dhara, who were sadhana-siddhas, entered into the nitya-siddha forms of Nanda and Yasoda at that time.”

(I wish I could go off now and meditate on the Holy Name like Parvadi Prabhu, but I have to file an opposition to an Anti-SLAPP motion by 4 p.m. today. Somehow I will try to remember the Holy Name as I engage in this tedious work.)

Comment posted by Akruranatha on November 2nd, 2007
131 Unregistered

The following are comments on the origin of the jiva soul by Drutakarma dasa who answers two comments from those who have doubts about our original eternal svarupa position.

COMMENT: “Your conclusion Drutakarma assumes from the statement:`in the past you had a very intimate friend.’To me this refers to relation with paramatma which [is] mentioned in the verses, and relationship with paramatma is at best neutral rasa. When it refers to friend, the lord is the friend to all eternally, though the jiva does not recognize him as friend.”

Drutakarma’s explains: “The friend is not only paramatma but ultimately Krishna Himself, who is appearing now in the form of Supersoul to speak to Vaidarbhi about the former intimate relationship she had with Him.

Srila Prabhupada said:

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramatma, appeared before the queen as a brahmana, but why didn’t He appear in His original form of Sri Krsna?” (SB 4.28.51 purport).

This question indicates that it could just as well have been Sri Krsna who addressed the words “in the past you had a very intimate friend” to the Queen.

Prabhupada answered the question thus:

“Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks that unless one is very highly elevated in loving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot see Him as He is.(SB 4.28.51 purport).

The question and its answer suggest that the original intimate friendly relationship of the Queen was with Krsna,and not His Supersoul expansion.

Also,in text 4.29.4,Narada Muni,who told the story of the brahmana and Queen Vaidarbhi, said:

yo ‘vijnatahrtas tasya
purusasya sakhesvarah
yan na vijnayate pumbhir
namabhir va kriya-gunaih

“The person I have described as unknown is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master and eternal friend of the living entity. Since the living entities cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by material names, activities, or qualities,He remains everlastingly unknown to the conditioned soul.”

The relevant synonyms are purusasya “of the living entity,” sakha “the eternal friend,” and isvarah “the master.”

COMMENT: “Drutakarma you are often dwelling on individual word meanings such as “again”, “reinstated,” “forgetfulness” cannot be conclusive to show a previous direct relationship.

Drutakarma again further explains: “Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto
ramamano ’sruta-smrtih
tat-sangad idrsim prapto
dasam papiyasam prabho

“My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment.Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions.”

Asruta smrtih is translated by Srila Prabhupada as “without remembrance of spiritual existence.” The nature of that spiritual existence, intimate friendship with Krsna has been described in previous verses. Here it is clear that dwelling on the individual word meaning “forgetfulness” is in fact conclusive.

Also text 4.28.64

evam sa manaso hamso
hamsena pratibodhitah
sva-sthas tad vyabhicarena
nastam apa punah smrtim

“In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction.”

Very clear translation. The living being was originally Krsna conscious. And he lost this Krsna consciousness because of material attraction. This verse does not say that the jiva was never at any time a servant of Krsna.

The Sanskrit here is also very clear.

The synonyms given by Srila Prabhupada are nastam “which was lost”, apa “gained”, punah “again”,smrtim “real memory.”

In other words, that which was lost is regained. I do not see how anyone can argue with this. It is right there in the Bhagavatam, in the Sanskrit. And the purport, naturally, goes right along with it. Here follow some excerpts.

“When the inferior swan is separated from the other swan, he is attracted to material enjoyment. This is the cause of his falldown. When he hears the instructions of the other swan, he understands his real position and is again revived to his original consciousness.” Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

“The word sva-sthah, meaning `situated in one’s original position,’ is very significant in this verse. When one gives up his unwanted attitude of superiority, he becomes situated in his original position. The word tad-vyabhicarena is also significant, for it indicates that when one is separated from God due to disobedience, his real sense is lost. Again, by the grace of Krsna and guru, he can be properly situated in his liberated position. These verses are spoken by Srila Narada Muni, and his purpose in speaking them is to revive our consciousness.” Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

Narada Muni further states in text 4.29.26:

yadatmanam avijnaya
bhagavantam param gurum
purusas tu visajjeta
gunesu prakrteh sva-drk

“The living entity by nature has minute independence to choose his own good or bad fortune, but when he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead, he gives himself up to unto the modes of material nature.”

The important synonyms are atmanam “the Supreme Soul,” avijnaya “forgetting,”bhagavantam “the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” param “supreme,” gurum “the instructor,”indicating that one forgets the Supreme Lord Krsna. Note the word bhagavantam, clearly indicating Krsna, not simply the Supersoul.

In his purport, Srila Prabhupada states:

“It is clearly stated herein that the living entity has a little independence, indicated by the word sva-drk, meaning `one who can see his own welfare.’ The living entity’s constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled in his choice. He may choose to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A servant may desire to start his own business and imitate his master, and when he chooses to do so, he may leave the protection of his master. Sometimes he is a failure, and sometimes he is successful. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of Krsna, starts his own business to compete with the Lord.” Bhag. 4.29.26 purport

Drutakarma in this way clearly explains that it is comprehensible that originally there is a master-servant relationship going on, and that it gets forgotten. Liberation means remembering it, remembering our eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa identity that is eternally founded and situated beyond mundane time and space.

I think the final say in all of this is humbly explained as follows-

“In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist. In the Bhagavatam’s description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time. And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone”. Jahnava Nitai Das

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on November 3rd, 2007
132 Japa Jim

Srila Prabhupada addressed the origins question in this purport and gives what he calls the conclusion.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.30.5:

“The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

end quote.

Thus, the conclusion to the origin debate is given by Srila Prabhupada.

Comment posted by Japa Jim on November 4th, 2007
133 Akruranatha

Sorry, Japa Jim, but I have to disagree.

In the Purport to 4.30.5, Srila Prabhupada does say, as you note, “The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

However, he does not say that is the conclusion to the “origin debate”. You are quoting Prabhupada out of context and missing his meaning, IMHO.

In the Purport you cited, Srila Prahupada is giving the conclusion to verses like “krishna surya sama; maya kaya andhakara”; “prabhasmi sasi suryayoh” and “yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-anda-koti.”

He is describing what is meant by comparisons of Krishna to the illuminating sun in the darkness of the material world. He is not discussing, let alone “concluding,” the debate about whether the conditioned jivas have ever associated with Krishna in the spiritual world. Elsewhere he definitively told us that question — about specifically how and when we got here — was something we should not waste time arguing about, like the crow and the tal fruit.

Unfortunately, that is a problem with this “debating”. We start filtering what we hear from the guru through our desire to score points against our “adversaries”. Then everyone starts quarreling and the real mood of Krishna katha is lost.

[Unfortunately, the way blog forums work is that we are often inspired to contribute when we find something another person said that we take objection to. With face to face group Bhagavatam study, an opposite dynamic takes over and we are inspired to support each other’s realizations with other authoritative quotations]

If we go on “folio” to find quotations to support our position, we may stop listening to Prabhupada’s position. That is the danger. Prabhupada’s books become enlisted to support our personal convictions, rather than to purify them.

Our “position” is that we are in maya, so we must go to the guru with questions. We need to hear guru’s version, Krishna’s version, without any motive or filter. As we become enlightened, we will find more and more that we understand and whole-heartedly agree with *everything* Srila Prabhupada says, and that all our doubts and confusions and difficulty in accepting things disappear.

Rather than look for supporting quotations here and there, it is better to read whole passages and chapters along with other friendly, faithful devotees, with a view only to purify our hearts. Then if a question or doubt arises, we can all try together to find the enlightening understanding that satisfies all the devotees. That is the way isthaghosti works, like magic.

I am afraid my strong words above will make you think of me as an “adversary”. Please do not think of me this way. I do want to hear the realizations you get from submissive hearing of Srila Prabhupada’s words.

Bhakta Rod has given numerous quotes (and keeps repeating them over and over) where Srila Prabhupada does say we once were with Krishna. Rather than simply find other quotes that seem to condradict Bhakta Rod’s quotes, what we need is to unite in an effort to understand how *all* the quotes (including quotes from Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and from Sila Bhaktivinode Thakur) are all true.

We have to make it our only wish to have our consciousness purified by the words coming from Prabhupada’s lotus mouth: “Guru mukha padma vakkya citite koriya aikya ara na koriho mane asa.”

I heard a recorded class from Padmalochan Prabhu today (not that I understand it)regarding how it is that we identify with matter in the material world although the soul is never actually contaminated (and, Prabhu was saying, is actually in Krishna’s transcendental lila). He said that it is not the soul which is contaminated, but our consciousness.

The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move. It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all.

In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is.

Until our consciousness is purified, there will be “debating”. When our consciousness is purified, everything will be crystal clear. That will be the real “conclusion.”

And even that “conclusion” will be dynamic, full of action and variety and tasty rasa.

Comment posted by Akruranatha on November 5th, 2007
134 Unregistered

Japa Jim, there is an impersonal ring to how you have understood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. You do not explain or possibly do not understand that the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism. Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is -

“The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on November 5th, 2007
135 Unregistered

Akruranatha prabhu says - “The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move. It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is”

I associated with Padmalochan Prabhu in Vrndavana, if it’s the same devotee who knows so much about Vrndavana. He was a very knowledgeable devotee back then in the mid seventies therefore his understanding of Vrndavana and Srila Prabhupada’s books can only have become more nectarine over the years.

I would like to share a personal realization with you -

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on November 5th, 2007
136 Unregistered

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.30.5, purport,
“The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

Srimad Bhagavatam, 3.16.26 purport.

“The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”

Bhakta Rod wrote,
“I would like to share a personal realization with you -

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.”

Bhakta Rod and his camp have invented their philosophy as an adjustment to deal with Srila Prabhupada’s written statement (as quoted above) that no one falls from Vaikuntha.
So, to keep their fall-from-goloka conception alive they have created with their fertile brains this philosophy that says that the conditioned jiva souls are not fallen but that they are simply in Goloka in their spiritual bodies, eternal swarupas, dreaming that they are in the material world.

Comment posted by Raghavendu on November 5th, 2007
137 Unregistered

Raghavendu says - “So, to keep their fall-from-goloka conception alive they have created with their fertile brains this philosophy that says that the conditioned jiva souls are not fallen but that they are simply in Goloka in their spiritual bodies, eternal swarupas, dreaming that they are in the material world”.

I would like to correctly point out to Raghavendu that it is not me saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen..

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -”The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”.In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada - “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Comment posted by Bhakta Rod on November 5th, 2007

Comments are closed. Please check back later.

 
 
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  • Glimpse of Goloka at ISKCON Convention Centre, Bangalore
  • Minister and VIP’s visit ISKCON Delhi on Janmasthami

     
    "Artwork and photos courtesy of the Bhaktivedanta Book Trust International, Inc. www.krishna.com. Used with permission"