Gauragopala Dasa: To say we DID NOT come from Vaikuntha is to say we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea.
He has explained that this condition in the impersonal Brahmajyoti is already a fallen state, Srila Prabhupada further explains that originally we ALL have come down from Vaikuntha to the material creation many millions of years ago. And then, out of frustration of trying to enjoy this temporary material existence, some of us have devolved even further to eventually fall into deeper illusion, with great difficulty, to that dormant motionless inactive conscious state known collectively as the impersonal Brahmajyoti (collectively because of all the billions of baddha-jivas vibrating dormantly there).
It is these souls (baddha-jivas) who foolishly think this impersonal Brahmajyoti to be our origin having forgotten their real perpetual nitya-siddha body that exists outside the limited realms of the material creation (mahat-tattva) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti or effulgence. And it must be stressed that, like the material creation, the impersonal Brahmajyoti is also a temporary condition of the numerous baddha-jivas who strive to take shelter within the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Srila Prabhupada – “There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha” New York lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976
Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). But because we wanted to imitate Krishna, we wanted to become Krishna, as the Mayavadis want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Krishna is the only enjoyer. (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – “Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70
Srila Prabhupada – “A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature. We can misuse such independence with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings. That choice is always there even in Goloka and must be there if genuine love is to exist. It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity. An even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen.
The following quotes overwhelmingly reveal that Srila Prabhupada has said we have come down from Vaikuntha however, most never again choose to make that foolish mistake, although on the other hand there is always the chance, due to free-will and the God (Krishna) given ability to choose, we can fall down and without that choice there can be no selfless love.
Srila Prabhupada – “After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
Many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka. And it’s got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka, as some foolishly believe. Their presentation of the ‘sleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy and how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!! The understanding of the word dream in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka has nothing to do with sleeping anywhere; it’s all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there.
In other words when the marginal living entity re-establishes again the memory of their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka, it will appear as if NO time has passed whatsoever when once again the marginal living entity is in the shelter AS their nitya-siddha body within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka-Vrndavana.
Dr. John Mize – “The question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul… Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thing”.
Srila Prabhupada – “That is his independence”.
Dr. John Mize – “Independence”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Instead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he falls”.
Dr. John Mize – “I’m sorry, he what?”
Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down”.
Dr. John Mize – “He falls”.
Srila Prabhupada – “He falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear me”.
Dr. John Mize – “I wouldn’t what?”
Srila Prabhupada – “You may not like to hear me”.
Dr. John Mize – “Yes”.
Srila Prabhupada – “That independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lord”.
Dr. John Mize – “Always engaged in…?”
Srila Prabhupada – “In the service of the Lord”.
Dr. John Mize – “Service of the Lord”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Just like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, “Make it like this.” He will, it will do. So… But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part.
So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life.
Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A son’s duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material world”.
Dr. John Mize – “It is puzzling to me that one would be so foolish”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Because by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita, that yathecchasi tathä kuru. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter.
That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, Krishna gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” Krishna never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-Gita. He gave him the independence, “Now whatever you like, you can do.” And he agreed. “Yes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say.” The same independence. Yes”.
Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.
Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.
Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.
Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.
Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee – “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.
Srila Prabhupada – “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”
Bhaktijana – “Has my soul ever been liberated?”
Srila Prabhupada – “That you know. I do not know”.
Bhaktijana – “If I was once liberated…”
Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya”.
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body. Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity! This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka. In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought) condition originating from the marginal living entity in Goloka.
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
There are others also that a resemble fire and extreme cold. Sarva gatah – life is everywhere in the mahat-tattva and most, over 75%, we cannot see with our biological eyes and our scientific technological extensions like the Electron Microscope and the Humble Telescope.
Hare Krishna, your fallen servant Gauragopala Dasa