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‘Realizations on the jiva’s ‘fall’ from Vaikuntha

Sunday, 12 December 2010 / Published in Blog thoughts / 10,954 views

Gauragopala dasa ACBSP: Drutakarma Prabhu’s paper is an excellent read found here http://www.scribd.com/Jiva/d/1732507 and clearly explains ISKCON’s understanding on the ‘origin of the jiva’. Jayadvaita Swami also nicely explains ISKCON’s excellent policy on this subject at this address – http://www.jswami.info/jiva

I also would like to share my own realizations on this subject matter –

To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada

Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)

Srila Prabhupada – These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970

Srila Prabhupada – “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album

Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4- Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Devotee – “Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back”.

Srila Prabhupada – “No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . .”

Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body.

Such a spiritual body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s but can also appear as a four armed form in the Vaikunthas in the mood of servitude, or further appear as a flower, drop of rain, chair, etc regardless, the original form of the soul is two armed just like Krishna’s.

What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!

This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.

In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.

In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought)

Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).

This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Trivikrama asks Srila Prabhupada – “You were just saying that we are not fallen. Actually this is an illusion thinking that we are fallen. Yet I read …

Srila Prabhupada: “The same example. In dream I am not attacked by the tiger, but I am …thinking, “Oh, tiger is there – It is simply dreaming condition”.

Trivikrama: But so many Vaishnavas are praying…

Srila Prabhupada – “So as soon as you understand that “This is not… I am not in contact with tiger, it is all a dream,” then you are delivered. Similarly, as soon as you understand “All this material condition of life we are simply dreaming; I am actually servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. That is Krsna conscious. If you keep in Krsna consciousness, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you are liberated. . . .

Trivikrama: This feeling that we have, that we are fallen, that we are very fallen…

Srila Prabhupada – “That is also illusion. That is also illusion. You are fallen means you have got some certain desires except service of Krsna. Therefore the conclusion is that if you keep yourself tightly in Krsna’s service, there is no question of falling down or there is no question of Maya. You see?” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

In this lecture Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu.

In this dreaming nitya-baddha condition we forget our actual position and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer.

This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming nitya-baddha state.

Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully think about it.

This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” We do not fall. We simply forget our original nitya-siddha relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada’s purports

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association.

They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never again misuse their free will. In most cases that is correct because the marginal living entity chooses to do so. For there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porn’s in a collective of monotonous bliss.

Further more, many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using that free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, which is perpetually there in Krishna’s pastimes fixed within that eternal presence where nothing perishes

The understanding of the word ‘dream’ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupada’s preaching yet has nothing to do with ‘sleeping’ anywhere; it’s all to do with time.

The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka that has no past or future, compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires. This also means they fall our of synch with their own perpetual nitya-siddha body and create an alternative consciousness known as the nitya-baddha secondary self. It is this inferior consciousness that enters the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).

Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there. Now that technically means their nitya-siddha body is NEVER fallen but rather it is their ‘consciousness’ that is fallen

Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.

When the marginal living entity is in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha), that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka. When a dark cloud covers the Sun, everything becomes dark however, it is not the sun that goes dark, it is the covering that makes it appear the Sun is dark.

Similarly, the nitya-siddha body of the marginal living entity is always in Goloka-Vrndavana but due to the selfish desires of the marginal living entity that cover the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of their nitya-siddha body, it appears that the darkness or the nitya-baddha secondary consciousness has replaced the nitya-siddha body, but that is NOT so, one’s nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in Goloka even when one dreams they are nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will, choice and their absolute smallness putting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka where their nitya-siddha body is perpetually situated.

As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of the sleeping Maha-Vishnu.

As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body in Goloka that is perpetually fixed there due to the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness as already explained and are now nitya baddha trapped in the mahat-tattva of Maha-Vishnu

As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.

And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to distinguish who we really our that separates us from the MATERIAL DREAM state or nitya-baddha fallen self centred consciousness.

Alan Ginsberg – “How did the material covering begin?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Begin?”

Alan Ginsberg – “As the material shadow. How did we fall into that?

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishna”.

Alan Ginsberg – “. How did we fall into that?”

Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, ‘The Lord is predominator; we have to serve.’ When this service attitude is impaired, that–‘Why serve Krishna? Why not ourself?’–that is Maya”. – Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire…” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974

Devotee – “You commented that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…

Srila Prabhupada – “Not desire, but he is already established”.

Devotee – ” Established.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.

So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.

You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.

No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.

That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna.” You will have to wait for that. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23, 1968

Paramahamsa – “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.

Srila Prabhupada – “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.

Paramahamsa – “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness”.

.

It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha

When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity in Krishna’s pastimes

Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.

Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in it’s originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms –

Yasomatinandana – “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 – Melbourne, May 20, 1975

So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.

For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare.

In simple terms, one has the ability to ‘shape shift’ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.

Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattva’s like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa-nitya-siddha body

Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on.

Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.

Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?

Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says – “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.

When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.52: The Brahmana inquired as follows: Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man laying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don’t you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53: The Brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.54: My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Mānasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.55: My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been travelling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman.

In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.

They could either take three births in the material world as demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons so they could get back to Vaikuntha quicker. After all they were trapped in bodies that were under the control of past, present and future.

Now they come from Vaikuntha under Krishna’s compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishna’s pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa in Vaikuntha back within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness.

It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they give up Krishna as we have done.

In other parts of Srila Prabhupada’s writings, he calls their offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says “This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it”.

Now those who are associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material dream or fall down AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishna jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna.

That can include any jiva-tattva (marginal) associate of Krishnas in Goloka who no longer choose to be an associate, any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.

They therefore think, dream or imagine they fall – actually no falls from Vaikuntha because their nitya-siddha body is perpetually fixed there within the eternal presence of Krishna’s pastimes.

As the CC states all marginal living entities are originally nitya-siddha and only the Vishnu-tattvas never forget their position in Krishna lila. Some come to the material creation in Krishna’s lila while others come to for fill their own selfish dreams.

As there are no killing of demons in Vaikuntha, Krishna plays this role as His Vishnu expansion in the material creation with all his nitya siddha jiva-tattvas and Vishnu-tattva associates however, there are other jiva-tattva souls who choose to leave Goloka simply because of their choice not to be with Krishna, THERE IS NO MATERIAL CAUSE FOR THEM FORGETTING GOLOKA OR VAIKUNTHA OTHER THAN FREE WILL AND CHOICE.

Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.

This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattva nitya-siddha souls in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.

The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees do not mean to become mindless porns in Vaikuntha and ‘yes’ men/women to Krishna.

No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.

It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.

And even then due to that smallness and choice, we only ‘think, imagine or dream’ we are fallen that we become fallen. The fact is we never fall; our nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka

Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Regarding to how a nitya siddha in Goloka can fall down to nitya baddha in the material world, Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature in Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana.

We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.

Maya is not the cause of ones fall down from Vaikuntha, that is not possible she only exists in the mahat-tattva. The cause of ones fall down is ones own independent desires of self importance based on free will and choice.

One simply chooses to no longer serve Krishna as their nitya siddha body. As a result, they eventually forget their nitya-siddha body and leave Vaikuntha and enter the mahat tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary self that is the sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity.

it should of been made clear that the entire universes of Krishna and His Vishnu-tattvas, jiva-tattvas, Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are all collectively the Brahmajyoti or everything that is.

The Vaikuntha’s were never created so the word ‘creation’ cannot be used for Goloka-Vrndavana and the Vaikuntha realm, nor can it be used to explain the marginal living entities (jiva-tattvas) or Krishna and His unlimited Vishnu-tattva expansions.

The word creation can only apply to the mahat-tattva material ‘creation’ because it has a beginning and end.

The ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of souls in their baddha-jiva inferior feature that becomes established in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered and frustrated within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they choose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

In other words, when souls become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘imagine’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that is within and part of each marginal living entities capacity of expression, in this case inactivity.

The individual baddha-jivas who enter this ‘consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as their impersonal Brahmajyoti feature. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva

So where this painting is misleading is the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, is NOT some place within the over all universes but is rather a state of inactive consciousness ‘desired’ by the baddha-jiva aspect of the marginal living entity. (That ultimately is also only a temporary condition because the inherent nature of all marginal living entities is ‘activity’

Keep in mind the baddha-jiva consciousness is the sub-conscious or rebellious state of the soul that ignores ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body or the full expression and potential that is the make up of every of every marginal living entity

Those who believe the jiva originates from some inactive state or from the Vraja River or the Body of Maha-Vishnu are actually propagating Impersonalism. The real facts are that all marginal living entities come from the pastimes of Krishna by their own foolish choice. This is the teaching of Srila Prabhupada.

Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.

This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.

In the Vaikuntha/Goloka-Vrndavana realm the ecstasy of loving devotion between Krishna and His devotees are always forever expanding and increasing in a mood of reciprocation however, the nitya-siddha devotees are totally selfless and are only interested in serving unconditionally.

This is also due to the marginal living entities choosing to be always ‘aware’ of their nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious selfless perpetual body and continuously using their free-will to increase and expand their selfless loving devotion to Krishna.

As a result Krishna reciprocates and Goloka is therefore ever expanding. That means that what is now the topmost experience of loving devotion is overwhelmed by an even higher experience of love for Krishna and His devotees and again by a further overwhelming loving selfless devotion, this process is endlessly going on within the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka

However, no-matter what devotional ‘rasa’ one is in, in Goloka or Vaikuntha, the act of free will also allows one to foolishly choose to ‘forget Goloka’ and the ‘nitya-siddha body’ they eternally are if they desire.

That choice must always be there at any ‘instant’ in Goloka if there is to be genuine love. Srila Prabhupada tells us that fortunately less than 10% of marginal living entities make that dreaded choice to ‘sub-consciously’ leave Goloka or Vaikuntha.

When this choice happens, the ‘AWARENESS’ of the marginal living entities nitya-siddha body is forgotten and ‘transformed’ to only being ‘AWARE’ of their restricted secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that can only find refuge or shelter within the mahat-tattva (material creation) bodily creations of Maha-Vishnu.

So the nitya-siddha full Krishna conscious body (svarupa) and nitya-baddha sub-consciousness are NOT separate marginal living entities, as some believe, they are in fact different dispositions of the one individual marginal living entity.

Although we think of progress in terms of past, present and future in the material world it is not of the same nature as in Goloka. The seasons are all simultaneously existing within the Goloka and still Krishna and His devotees can enter them in an ever-expanding progression.

The ‘eternal presence’ means one is so absorbed in loving selfless service to Krishna that one neither experiences the passing of time nor the impermanence and decay of a temporary bodily vessel as found in the material creation.

What is possible in Goloka is endless and full of marvel, revelation and keenness and way beyond the ordinary relativity of the conditioned side of the marginal living entities (nitya-baddha).

The events and dealings within the Goloka are truly within the unique nature of the absolute known as the ‘eternal presence of Krsna’s loving pastimes’.

Some have clearly misunderstood the marginal living entities and wrongly believe they are not tatastha-s’akti also in Goloka and Vaikuntha and that there is a third kind of living entity that is above the concept of marginal.

The fact is there are only two types of living entities, Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva (marginal or tatastha-s’akti) as Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva, and the other is called the Supreme Lord”. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”

When we talk of fall down from Goloka, it will always be a touchy subject because some will always believe once in the Goloka pastimes of Lord Krishna, one never falls down. The fact is in most cases they don’t.

The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality.”

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer”. What can be done? Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty-therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence. If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. Germany, June 22, 1974

Srila Prabhupada – “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.

Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa ACBSP

Astrology And Free Will
The Sacred Necklace

17 Responses to “‘Realizations on the jiva’s ‘fall’ from Vaikuntha”

  1. Gauragopala dasa says :

    The cause of fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka is miss use of independence, free will and the sheer smallness of the jiva-tattva. There is no material cause for our fall down that is not possible because Maya does not exist in Goloka. It is simply free will and choice. There is no material cause for our fall down whatsoever.

    Srila Prabhupada – “you can violate, if he likes, he can return”.

    Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

    Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel… if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

    Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna. What causes us to fall down in the material world, because we are already serving Krishna?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down”. Bhagavad-gita lecture Melbourne on June 25, 1974

    Srila Prabhupada – “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

    In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.

    Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

  2. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Srila Prabhupada – “Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddha. Anyone who is in this material world they are nitya-baddha” Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973

    The nitya-baddha condition can therefore manifest from all marginal living entities if they choose a non-Krishna conscious selfish existence in the material creation (mahat-tattva).

    Nitya-siddha on the other hand is the original condition of all marginal living entities in their full potential awareness of who they really are as pure Krsna Conscious selfless servant of Krishna in Goloka and Vaikuntha or even the mahat-tattva in Krsna lila

    In this way, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are two characteristics of each individual marginal living entity; they are not separate marginal beings, as some foolishly believe.

    Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal nitya-siddha servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ (nitya-siddha) in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.

    Srila Prabhupada – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

    Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

  3. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Is it possible to see that the soul in the material world (As the nitya-baddha consciousness) trapped in the biological body via its underlying subtle or ethereal vessel, is actually a nitya-siddha devotee of Krsna when the full bodily potential of the marginal living entity is AGAIN realized and expressed?

    If you do see this remarkable truth, then you have the good fortune to see that actually EVERYONE, every materially covered living entity in the 8,400,000 species of life in this material world, is ultimately Krishna’s devotee AND DEAR FRIEND. The humble sages sees all this with their equal vision, they ultimately see the nitya-siddha devotee within ALL bodily containers or vessels.

    And furthermore they understand that just like light (referring to the nitya-siddha body that is the full perpetual expression and potential of the marginal living entity in Goloka-Vrndavana) dissipates and replaces all the darkness (referring to the nitya-baddha restricted conscious ‘awareness’ of the marginal living entity that is selfishly absorbed and contained by material bodies within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu), when one AGAIN becomes AWARE of their nitya-siddha body, then they are in their ‘original position’ in Goloka-Vrndavana where darkness (The nitya-baddha consciousness) simply does not exist.

    Where there is light, there is no darkness.

    To taste the fruit of devotional service again in Goloka Vrndavana is the highest perfection of life and is ones original position and nature, and in the presence of such perfection, the four material perfections-religion, economic development, sense gratification and liberation are very insignificant achievements.

    No material cause” means the jiva can’t blame a fall down on material circumstances. Similarly, we have a choice to surrender to Krsna and the Spiritual Master by our own free will

    Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us the jiva-tattva was never created and is in the service of Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha however, due to free will and choice, they can fall from Goloka or Vaikuntha. In fact ALL souls in the material creation come directly from Goloka-Vrndavana and NOT from some dormant inactive position in the Brahmajyoti.

  4. Gauragopala dasa says :

    There are two kinds of living entities, Vishnu-Tattva and the marginal living entities or jiva-tattvas like us. Krsna, the cause of all causes, is the direct foundation who manifests all the Vishnu-tattva expansions into unlimited lilas. Krsna also expresses His full appearance as the cause of all causes by maintaining His minute jiva-tattva expansions

    Without the jiva-tattvas , there would be no meaning to Krsna, just like without the sunrays, there is no meaning to the Sun

    Furthermore, because the marginal living entities have free-will and the ability to choose, they have the capability to decide to either be on this side in selfless Krsna lila in Vaikuntha or that side in selfish Maya within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

    The practical words to describe ‘this side serving Krsna,’ is nitya-siddha and ‘that side serving Maya,’ is nitya-baddha. They are two distinct words that describe the condition of the individual marginal living entity when they serve or do not serve Krishna.

    The above duality of choice always exists even in Vaikuntha and Goloka due to free-will and the independence of the jiva-tattva or marginal living entity however, as soon as the marginal living entity chooses not to serve Krishna, that is when the nitya-baddha consciousness exists instantaniously, taking the ‘awareness’ of the jiva-tattva (Not one’s perpetual svarupa or body) outside of Vaikuntha and into perishable material bodies provided bt Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva decaying creation.

  5. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Srila Prabhupada – “The Supreme Personality of Godhead impregnates the mahat-tattva (material creation) with His internal potency which are the living entities. The mahat-tattva (lifeless matter) is thus “lit up” by the sum total of the consciousness of all the conditioned souls (baddha-jivas)” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.26.19-2).

    The mahat-tattva refers to the perishable material creation, which takes up one quarter of the Brahmajyoti, Brahman or Spiritual Sky that includes all the subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material bodily vessels that entrap the baddha-jiva soul according to their selfish material desires and good and bad reactions (karma).

    The mahat-tattva is the creation of Maha-Vishnu; everything in His innate or lifeless material creation is the manifestation of His dreams and thoughts and is only moved with the appearance of life. It is He who impregnates in the mahat-tattva the baddha-jiva-souls.

    So where do those baddha-jivas come from?

    Maha-Vishnu brings life to the mahat-tattva by His glance that places baddha-jivas in His ‘mahat-tattva’ bodily material vessels throughout the material creation. These baddha-jivas that are placed in subtle and gross material bodily vessels are actually from the previous mahat-tattva, however there are others who have chosen to come down from Vaikuntha and even Goloka-Vrndavana, not as their nitya-siddha body, but also as their sub-conscious dream state known as the nitya-baddha jiva

    This nitya-baddha characteristic of the jiva (marginal living entity) is the secondary inferior manifestation of the marginal living entity that becomes evident when the marginal living entity foolishly chooses to leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, forgetting Krishna and their own eternal nitya-siddha body.

    This therefore places the marginal living entities ‘awareness’ of reality as nitya-baddha into the mahat-tattva confined to an unlimited array of material bodily vessels that are all part and parcel of the material dream creation of Maha-Vishnu.

    If the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to enter Maha-Vishnu’s material creation by rejecting service Krishna in Goloka as their nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, then their ‘awareness’ will no longer be absorbed as who really are as a nitya-siddha body (svarupa vigraha).

  6. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Just like darkness (compared to the nitya-baddha consciousness) is created by the absence of light (compared to the nitya-siddha body), the inferior nitya-baddha conscious ‘conditioned awareness’ only exists when the jiva forgets their nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body.

    The jiva-soul or the marginal living entity is now manifest as its nitya-baddha secondary ‘awareness’ where one’s material desires will be given the facility of a material ethereal and biological vessels that are within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu which are containments, bodily vessels or ornament belonging to the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

    Such material bodies are available to an unlimited number of marginal living entities via their secondary baddha-jiva condition if they choose to ignore Krishna and live out their material desires.

    In this way, the mahat-tattva along with all its material vessels, are continuously created and annihilated with the creation and destruction of each mahat-tattva, the trapped baddha-jiva within those material bodies simply goes along for the cosmic ride bound by karma in search of selfish material so called pleasures in an attempt to lord it over the material energy. All these trapped baddha-jivas take refuge within the Body of Maha-Vishnu when the mahat-tattva is annihilated if they are not qualified to go Back Home, Back to Godhead.

    Others like advanced impersonalist yogis can take shelter in their own inactive or dormant consciousness by ceasing all desires and actions with much difficulty, which really is a dreamless dream state of the baddha-jiva.

    Therefore the impersonal aspect of the Brahman or Brahmajyoti is certainly not some place in the creation where baddha-jivas merge into as some foolishly believe but is rather a state of individual consciousness.

    The Brahman or ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti’ or the impersonal feature of the Spiritual Sky is actually a very small minority of jiva-souls or marginal living entities who experience this in their baddha-jiva second-rate characteristic that become further trapped in that ‘impersonal’ dormant state due to the influence of being covered then eventually frustrated by the temporary material bodies within the mahat-tattva that souls fall to and are covered (material vessels that belong to the mahat-tattva) by when they long, long, long, long, long ago chose to no longer serve Krsna in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

  7. Gauragopala dasa says :

    In other words, when jiva-souls or marginal living entities in the nitya-baddha condition become fed up with the material creation of changing material bodies or vessels, they can escape this cycle of birth and death by either realizing their full potential nitya-siddha body that is always in Goloka even while they ‘envision’ themselves to be in the mahat-tattva, or they can cease to desire bodily activity (after much difficulty of casting off those subtle and gross material bodies) and enter an inactive dormant state of consciousness that each marginal living entity has the capacity of expression, in this case ‘impersonal’ inactivity.

    Although due to the inherent nature of the baddha-jiva is activity, the impersonal Brahman condition is also temporary. The individual baddha-jivas who ‘manifest’ this ‘dormant consciousness’ are expressing the impersonal side of their nature and is known as the impersonal Brahmajyoti feature of the marginal living entity. In other words the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the dormant inactive characteristic of the ‘baddha’-jiva’

    The gross characteristics of the material universe that houses biological bodies as well as there innate or lifeless remnants left over after the embodied baddha-jiva, contained in the ethereal vessel, gives up or is forced to give up the outer gross biological material vessel, is totally different than the underlining subtle body (ethereal) or universe that takes up 99% of the material universe or mahat-tattva.

    Modern science therefore can only register or view less than 1% of the material universes where the middle planetary systems exist, where as the other 99% of the subtle or ethereal material creation cannot be seen with gross biological eyes or its extensions of gross material technology. Science calls un meassurable sub-space material matter ‘dark matter’ however if they see it then it is only part of the gross material worlds

    So only 1% of the material universe is made up of gross matter and biological bodily vessels. All dead matter such as dust, rocks, sand, atmosphere comes from the presence of life, left over from the presence of biological infatuated self-centred baddha-jivas trapped with the cycle of birth and death.

  8. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Scientific advancement such as the Hubble Telescope, the Electron Microscope and the Large Hadron Collider (atom smasher) are also made out of this gross matter, which means these instruments cannot register the subtle ethereal material universe that takes up 99% of the mahat-tattva material creation, what to speak of the Vaikunthas.

    Therefore the greater majority of the material universe, not to be misunderstood as spiritual (Vaikuntha/Goloka) is the subtle material (ethereal universe and home of the demigods and hellish worlds) that can never be measured by any gross instrument or biological means in the material universe.

    Therefore 99% of the mahat-tattva (material universe) is not seen with biological eyes or even measured by any kind of gross material technology no matter how advanced.

    Only pious or impious activities can reveal both the heavenly and hellish words to an individual however, there is no gross material way other than by the path of self realization under the guidance of a Guru can this be realized, experienced and understood and attain AGAIN attain Vaikuntha beyond the subtle and gross material worlds.

    Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity wants to imitate Krsna and tries to lord it over material nature; thus he forgets his original position, and his illuminating power, his spiritual identity, (their nitya-siddha body is forgotten) is extinguish. However, if a living entity takes to Krsna consciousness, he is reinstated in his original position. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”

    Srila Prabhupada – “Sages and saints like Narada and the Kumaras are travelling all over the universe educating people and encouraging their disciples to preach this process of devotional service so all the conditioned souls may be able to revive their original consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, and thus gain relief from the miserable conditions of material life”. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”

    There is no origin to our ‘svarupa or nitya-siddha body’. Every marginal living entity has an authentic nitya-siddha svarupa or sat-cit-ananda- vigraha body in Goloka-Vrndavana. Unlike the material world in the Spiritual worlds of Vaikuntha and Goloka-Vrndavana, we are our body.

  9. Gauragopala dasa says :

    This they can realize even now while trapped in their lower nitya-baddha dreaming self if one again turns to Krishna Consciousness. On the other hand, the rebellious marginal living entity trapped in their baddha-jiva selfish expression, can almost never realize their true bodily nitya-siddha identity if they continue to choose to remain nitya-baddha and continue to misuse their free will and not desire to ‘again’ become Krishna Conscious.

    Srila Prabhupada – “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. Milton in Paradise Lost nicely illustrates the living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

    Factually, without free will, there would be no need to have the mahat-tattva (material creation) however, because we DO have the free will to serve Krishna or reject Krishna, there is a need to have the mahat-tattva just like our society has the need to have a jail.

    Without free will how can there be genuine love and service? There has to be a choice and that is why we are called ‘marginal’ living entities. Each marginal living entity has the nitya-siddha body in Goloka and, if they choose, the nitya baddha consciousness (surrogate) that takes shelter within material bodily vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva material creation.

    A devotee asked Srila Prabhupada what he had been praying for, and Srila Prabhupada said, “I was praying that I may not fall down from devotional service.” The devotee responded, “But Srila Prabhupada, a pure devotee like you never falls down.” Srila Prabhupada replied, “A pure devotee never falls down because he is always praying that he may not fall down.”

  10. isvaradas says :

    Even though Srila Prabhupada had written in the Srimad Bhagavatam that “it is a fact no one falls from the spiritual world”, you however keep on pontificating that the jivas in the material world have indeed all fallen from the spiritual world. You are indeed contradicting Srila Prabhupada and all the Vaisnava Acaryas who had taught on the subject. Perhaps you can suggest to us how it is possible to leave the loving association of Lord Krishna.
    I would suggest you re-read the Adi-lila Chapter 4 and Madhya-liila Chapter 8 of Sri Caitanya Caritamrta,where Srila Prabhupada wrote extensively on the subject of love of Krishna.

    This whole idea of fallen from the spiritual world had risen due to our unshakable impersonalistic mentalities.

  11. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Isvara prabhu you have misunderstood the clear teachings of our Srila Prabhupada who represents ALL the parampara of Gaudiya Vaishnavism in fact, it is those who do not understand that originally we have all come from Vaikuntha, that are polluted with impersonalism.

    It is a fact that ALL marginal living entities have come down from Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha to this material mundane creation some millions of years ago as Srila Prabhupada has taught us.

    Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

    Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

    Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna. What causes us to fall down in the material world, because we are already serving Krishna?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down”. Bhagavad-gita lecture Melbourne on June 25, 1974

    Srila Prabhupada – “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” (nitya-baddha mundane consciousness ) disappears. But the seer (nitya-siddha body) remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123

    Srila Prabhupada – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

  12. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Only a minority fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach.

    Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

    It’s not so difficult to ‘realize’ that long, long, long, long ago we were with Krishna as our permanent real nitya-siddha body but have now chosen not only to forget Krishna, but also forget that nitya-siddha body within the realm of perpetual originality called Vaikuntha

    When a devotee regains their original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes ‘the awareness’ of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, they mostly do not again take birth in this material creation again however, because of free will, there is always the chance of miss use of free will, even in Vaikuntha.

    Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.

    Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. ” Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 13.22-24 — Melbourne, June 25, 1974

    Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna says – “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.

    When asked directly about whether the jiva was ever in the spiritual world, Srila Prabhupada mentions in the 4th Canto Chapter 28 of the Srimad Bhagavatam that Krishna (in the form of a Brahmana) says to King Puranjana (in his next life, as the daughter of Kind Vidarbha) “Don’t you remember me? I was your very close friend, but you gave up My Company and came to this material world”.?

  13. scooty.ram says :

    There are statements made by Srila Prabhupada which mean that we fell from vaikunta and there are statements which mean that we are eternally conditioned and that we were never in vaikunta.

    It appears that one could not possibly arrive at a conclusion from these statements.

    In such cases ,the best way is to refer to the commentaries of previous Acharyas.
    I am sure that one will be able to find the answer easily and precisely.

    Dasan

  14. pustakrishna says :

    We cannot permit His Grace Gauragopala das to rest in this debate. Taking all of this into consideration, the question of the conditioned souls’ origin is debatable. I know I may have tried to submit this to Dandavats.com in the past, and I think it may not have been accepted, but I hope that it will be printed, because it presents another Gaudiya Vaishnava and very consistent philosophical line of conception. My children, when they were much younger, became disciples of HDG Srila Govinda Maharaj, who passed on in March, 2010. He was also a good friend of mine. Still, I am Srila Prabhupad’s man, to the core.
    Anyway, my daughter, Krishnapriya dd, when she was about 12 years old or so, questioned me, “How did we fall down from Krishnaloka if Krishna is all-attractive and ecstatic love abounds there?” I asked her to ask her own Gurudeva about this. So, she wrote to Srila Govinda Maharaj, and he replied this way: “I will answer as my Guru Maharaj, Srila Sridhar Maharaj, said. The conditioned souls origin is from the Brahmajyoti. In the Brahma Samhita, there is description that the Brahmajyoti is filled with countless self-effulgent jiva souls. Most of them go upward to the plane of Dedication, to Vaikuntha or Goloka. Some fewer go downward to the plane of Exploitation, the material world.”
    This explanation is very consistent with the Bhagavad Gita, which says that having once gone there (the Spiritual Planets), one never returns. It, of course, takes exception with lila of Sri Krishna, like Jaya and Vijaya, the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha. Other places note that when Sri Krishna wants to fight, He sometimes recruits His devotees to participate in this way in His lila. The minute free-will of the jiva soul is never lost, but the jiva-soul is not covered by mundane mind or intelligence in the spiritual world. Consciousness is identical with the self, and it is Krishna consciousness. So, the above explanation is both philosophically sound, and spiritually logical. Frankly, I accept that, because to think that I might reject Krishna in the spiritual world would create too much depression and doubt for me. If Krishna is all-attractive, all blissful, and the reservoir of loving relationships, raso vai saha, how could I ever have left Him….unless as an eternally conditioned soul, I have not yet had the opportunity to dwell in His divine abode. Submitted with all humility, and expected future debate. Pusta Krishna das

  15. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Srila Prabhupada has written in the Srimad Bhagavatam that “it is a fact no one falls from the spiritual world”, however, the marginal living entity can dream, imagine or think they have fallen when in fact they never can fall. How do we understand this?

    Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

    It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana. This means their permanent genuine nitya-siddha body is ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness, originality and durableness, this means the marginal living entity is forever fresh and youthful as their nitya-siddha body in Goloka even if their ‘awareness’ of reality is off dreaming in the material creation as nitya-baddha.

    It is imperative to comprehend that all marginal living entities ARE their nitya-siddha body even while their nitya-baddha consciousness, that possesses material bodies, is active in the mahat-tattva. The nitya-baddha condition has nothing to do with who one really is. The nitya-baddha consciousness is only the dream echoed projection of the marginal living entity that is born out of rejecting Krishna just as darkness is born out of the absence of light.

    In this way, even if one’s ‘awareness’ is in the material creation or mahat-tattva as nitya-baddha, one’s nitya-siddha spiritual body is always ‘eternally’ in Goloka and can NEVER fall from there due to being a permanent fixture within the ‘eternal presence’ of Krishna Consciousness in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

    The nitya-siddha body is endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s even if one dreams, imagines or thinks they are in the material creation as their nitya-baddha shadow that creates millions of different subtle and gross material bodily vessels or bodies.

    What makes things mystifying to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state projected into the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity!

  16. Gauragopala dasa says :

    This means many baddha-jivas enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or can enter the impersonal characteristic of their own consciousness, which simultaneously is known as the ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti of inactivity’ at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation.

    This entrance into their own dormant impersonal inactive condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their ‘full potential selfless loving awareness’ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka.

    In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious dream condition originating from the marginal living entity in Goloka just like darkness originates when there is no more light.

    Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva shadow of one’s nitya-siddha bodily self that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body).

    This baddha-jiva secondary condition of the marginal living entity can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the inferior baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.

    Srila Prabhupada – “In His form as Karanodakasayi Vishnu the Lord impregnates material nature by His glance. The transcendental molecules of that glance are particles of spirit (baddha-jivas), or spiritual atoms, which appear in different species of life according to the seeds of their individual karma from the previous cosmic manifestation”. Caitanya Caritamrta Ādi 5.69

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972

    The seeds of the marginal living entity in their nitya-baddha condition is bonded to the mahat-tattva by their individual karma from the previous cosmic manifestation is significant because it means that if one is caught up in the material dream creation of Maha-Vishnu, they may take birth over and over again within unlimited creations of maha-tattva creations.

  17. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Such a conditioned state does not change the fact that ‘originally’ before first appearing in the maha-tattva within ethereal (subtle) and then biological (gross) restricted vessels, and then eventually along the journey enter the body of Maha-Vishnu, Vraja River or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti over and over and over and over again, they were ALL with Krishna as nitya-siddha in Goloka-Vrndavana.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya (Impersonal liberated state in the Brahmajyoti) but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.

    Srila Prabhupada – “This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila and sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972)

    Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

    Srila Prabhupada has told us that the ethereal and biological body we now have is not our real perpetual body and that our eternal Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body is everlastingly in Vaikuntha “You just have to realize it” he added, “It is there right now” he further explained.

    Some devotees once said in Mayapur in 1976 that it is too difficult to understand how we originally fell down from Goloka or Vaikuntha and the subject is best not discussed as Prabhupada had previously told his Australian devotees in 1972 however on this occasion in Mayapur he says the opposite and tells the devotees they should try to understand.

    We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?

    Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura – “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)

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