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NASN January 2008 – North American Sankirtan Newsletter

Wonderful, all glorious to the book distributors who have undertood what pleases Srila Prabhupada the most.

Srila Prabhupada’s books are the heart of ISKCON.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Feb 18, 2008 @ 2:21 pm

The last posting by (LILA) that is so wonderful and truly amazing!!

Here is a beautiful piece by Krsna Ashish das
Dear Lord

You took away a wonderful person from us. I’m not going to ask why because you must be having a good reason to take her and you gave her a chance to leave the body in Vrindavan, hearing and chanting the name of Hari and in the association of devotees.

How fortunate is that…in such a young age you delivered a soul who was learning to know life, experiencing new things but you realized that her destination is not in this planet…we with our material eyes cannot understand this fact and might be in dilemma, but as you say, we’re not this body because the body is still lying there on the bed and she is the same person, but now we’re crying and lamenting saying she is gone.

Yes real eternal immortal her is gone, she is not dead she will stay with us forever till we leave this planet, she will stay within our heart cause she was a good person. And in today’s world the amount of good person are just handful so I pray where ever she may be, she be in your shelter my lord…

We’re indeed heartbroken and soul shaken with this incident but life tells us to move and it makes us realize death is close to us, it’s like our shadow and we forget this during of engagements in this material world but how can we forget the reality…

I got a big shock same like all of you and for the past 2 days Lila’s thoughts are all over my mind it’s hard when a person whom you know for so long, just leaves us one day when you least expected something like this can ever happen…

Give us Strength oh mighty lord so that we can understand this mayajal the web of Maya and come out without any trouble and give us strength so that we can fight the followers of kali…

Thinking of Lila I realized she is such a strong girl even though shot at twice she didn’t give up she was hoping for some survival and while in coma she could feel the energy’s of people who were so concerned about her.

Lila, your are a brave person because your alive through your memories within our minds and heart. You always wanted to b in Vrindavan and now you will reside in Vrindavan…in Goloka Vrindavan.

I just have to say within my heart a sweet adorable person will reside and she will realize that how much every one loved her so much this will surely bring some joy to her…

Thank you very much…
In your service
Krsna Ashish das gurukuli.com

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Feb 7, 2008 @ 8:58 pm

The great transcendental Tsunami of Krishna Conscious bliss

There were grammar eras in the original draft. In the following two paragraphs they have been corrected – Jai All glorious to Srila Prabhupada

1. Srila Prabhupada - “When one dies, he is called dead, but when he again appears in a subtle form not visible to our present vision and yet acts, such a dead body is called a ghost. Ghosts are always very bad elements, always creating a fearful situation for others. The best way to remove them is to chant Hare Krishna very loudly and have jubilant kirtan until they leave”.

Srila Prabhupada - “In England, on Mr. John Lennon’s house where I was staying in 1969, there was one ghost. But as soon as the devotees began chanting very loudly, he went away immediately”

2. We just new we were very fortunate to be on that bus hearing from the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam. Some of us asked ‘what did we do to deserve to hear the wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam? Some of us speculated we were yogis, mystics, devotees and even demons from the Satya-yuga. Madhudvisa laughed and humbly said –

“It is by the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada that we have all taken to Krishna Consciousness and given this rare opportunity to spread Srila Prabhupada’s mission. And one day soon, if we are serious, we will relish the ecstasy of going back home, back to Godhead”.

Hare Krishna

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Feb 2, 2008 @ 6:24 pm

The Brahmana & The Prostitute

Even though often very difficult, we must see how to apply these lessons in our day-to-day lives. Stalk the mind. Observe it carefully. Next Sunday many will attend a Sunday feast. Some new people will come by, maybe some who are dirty and just looking for a meal. When we see such people (as most of us once were in this life or another) we should immediately observe our mind’s reaction and check any feelings of superiority or judgment?

Hopefully we will teach the mind to see Krishna bringing some more of His children back to Him. Seeing this truth with humility, selfless and without being condescending to others is the real qualities of a Vaishnava. If we somehow choose to give up our pride and cooperate with Krishna in that glorious endeavour by telling all others, no matter hoe rich or fallen and forsake all manner of negative judgements, then surely we become that much closer to being an authentic Vaishnava.

I play this game while passing people walking down the street sometimes and I would be too ashamed to write down my minds initial reactions to others. Somehow we have to always think of Krishna if we are to get out of this material world, I find that difficult being so materially conditioned.

Therefore, we have to understand that what ever we think of at the time of death, who ever we love or hate, or are attracted too or disgusted by, that materially conditioned consciousness and similar bodily form we will get without a doubt as the Gita tells us.

Just like the Brahmana ended up on the planet of the prostitutes

Somehow we have to learn to love Krishna, always think OF HIM and serve His desires, which are the desires of His pure devotees, and
help every living entity serve Krishna.

Hare Krishna, your aspiring servant Bhakta Rod

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Feb 2, 2008 @ 11:39 pm

Once in the land Vrndavana two Vaishnava’s devotees, a newly initiated young devotee and an older more senior devotee of Krishna were walking back to the Temple. As they were walking they came across a woman who was in distress. She wanted to cross the Yumuna River to the other side.

The two Vaishnava’s saw the woman and the newly initiated devotee thought to himself –

“We are celibate monks, it is not possible to help this woman because we are practicing celibacy so we cannot approach her, let alone carry her across the stream!

The Senior Vaishnava who was very attached to serving Krishna, saw this as an opportunity to serve one of Krishna’s beloved devotee’s, without any hesitation, he carried the woman across the stream. The young newly initiated devotee looked at the older Vaishnava sternly and yet said nothing and the two carried on with their journey back to the Temple.

After about two hours of walking, they finally arrived at the beautiful Radha Krishna Temple on the out skirts of Vrndavana. The younger devotee could no longer keep the build up of his feelings of disgust within himself ant longer and turned around to the senior monk and said:

“Why did you carry that woman, did you forget we are practicing celibate Monks? As Brahmacari’s, we are not suppose to speak any woman unnecessarily, let alone what you did by physically touching her and carrying her across the Yumuna River

The senior devotee looked at the young Brahmacari and after contemplating for a few moments he said.

“How long did it take me to carry this woman devotee across the stream? Maybe 5 minutes at most, but you have carried her for 2 hours on our journey back to our Temple and are still carrying her” (You Rascal!)

The Brahman and the prostitute and the two devotees give us the same lesson.

Hare Kishna

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Feb 2, 2008 @ 11:33 pm

Guru? He will find you…

As one devotee recently said –

“When you think about it, Srila Prabhupada came to the West because there was a deep longing among the 50s and 60s LOST youth for answers to what in the hell is going on within the material world. Why are we here? Where did we come from? Where are we going? I Know I had that desire to find the answers. One evening while listening to George Harrison singing ‘My Sweet Lord’, I happened to watch Srila Prabhupada arriving at an airport surrounded by loving devotees on TV, I new at that moment that this holy man is my Spiritual Master. The fact is he came to the West because we all were desperately seeking the truth”.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Jan 6, 2008 @ 1:34 pm

Hari Sauri prabhu, hari bol.. All glorious to our wonderful and merciful Srila Prabhupada This story I have heard a few times, some devotees suggested it may have been Subala dasa, the Negro devotee, I do not really know. I heard the story second hand. Also if you know how to contact Mohanananda prabhu, he may help, he also previously associated with Leary and Richard Alpert at Millbrook. It would be interesting to contact him anyway because he Nandakumara prabhu, Shamasundara and Hanuman, who received Sanyas from Prabhupada in Melbourne in 1972, was once keep up all night at the 84 Hereford st, Temple in Sydney by Srila Prabhupada. Mohanananda prabhu later told us that Prabhupada told wonderful ecstatic pastimes of Krishna and Lord Caitanya all night long, he was completely blown away by it all and you could see the deep transcendental emotion in his face and eyes of how his deep intimate association with Prabhupada had affected him, it was really quite amazing to see. Also I like to thank you for the inspiration your transcendental diaries have given to so many devotees; your books have greatly encouraged me. One day I pray, they will be made easily available from all Libraries.

Anyway, in regards to the opening story, I found the following

SRILA PRABHUPADA: “God is within your heart. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam. God is not far away. If you are sincere, God sends you a spiritual master. Therefore God is also called caitya-guru, the spiritual master within the heart. God helps from within and from without. Everything is thus described in Bhagavad-gita.

This material body is like a machine, but within the heart is the soul, and with the soul is the Supersoul, Krsna, who gives directions. The Lord says, “You wanted to do this; now here is the chance. Go and do it.” If you are sincere, you say, “Now, God, I want You.” Then He will give you directions. “Yes, now you come and get Me like this.”

This is His kindness. However, if we want something else, that is all right. We can have it. God is very kind. When I want something, He is in my heart directing me and telling me how to have it. So why should He not give directions on how to have a spiritual master? First of all we must again be eager to revive our God consciousness. Then God will give us a spiritual master”. Back to Godhead #67, 1974: “An Awareness of What is Best and Most Beautiful”

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Jan 6, 2008 @ 1:32 pm

The Brain As Holodeck

The material mind and bodily and their senses are the imagination of the jiva-soul as Prabhupada explains to us, such vessels and everything associated with them is an illusion explained as follows.
The mahat tattva or material creation, that also includes all the ethereal and biological bodily vessels, is an illusionary ‘holodeck’ within Krishna’s creation. It is a place where souls can go, if they choose, to live out their ‘visions of independent grander’ and experience the imagination of their own ‘thoughts’ that do not include Krishna. However, Maha-Vishnu’s holodeck (mahat tattva), unlike the Hollywood holodeck made up by the writers of Star Track, is a real but perishable manifestation. In other words, all of us are already ‘living in an imaginary world’ within Maha-Vishnu’s Holodeck

Prabhupada – “This is also very important. The sky is one. Just like we can experience the sky, and suppose the sky on San Francisco is overcast with cloud. We say that then we are covered in cloud. Practically this San Francisco sky is only a fragmental portion of the whole sky. Similarly, the real sky is that spiritual sky, paravyoma. When that paravyoma partially is clouded with mahat-tattva, that is called material world. This is the position of material world. Material world is also existing in the spiritual world, but it is covered and in a fragmental segment”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Jan 3, 2008 @ 4:17 am

City of nine gates

Bhakta Rod Davis

Different realizations of the absolute truth

Many years ago, the British came to India and began building a train line between Delhi and Mathura. Many simple villages on the outskirts at the time had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders would sent a young representative down to meet the train and ascertain what it is and then come back with the news of its anticipated arrival.

On the evening of its appearance, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited in expectation and wonder of what a ‘train’ was. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was imminent. The fact was, no one had any inkling of what a train was. The young boy was dispatched and was told to immediately report back to the Village elder as soon as he identifies the train.

Off the young boy went in the dark and began to wait patiently. The night sky was clear and there was very little breeze in the air, he could hear the usual sounds of native animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night.

Then to the young boys surprise, out of the pitch black darkness and the still of night, he heard this thunderous extended high-pitched sound (the train whistles), being excited, he was convinced he now new what the train was. He immediately ran back to the village elders and excitedly told them,

“The train is a big sound”

Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and that a train is just a sound. Still not convinced the train was just a sound, feeling puzzled, a few decided to send another young villager down to investigate this sound and if there was more to the train. The second young boy the villager elders sent down was told to wait well into the darkness of night until the sound came closer to him. Eventually, after hearing the sound many times in a mood of fear of the unknown and inquisitiveness of what a train really is, he finally saw in the distance an extremely bright light that scared him. The combination of the sound and the bright blinding light frightened him because he did not understand what he was experiencing! Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,

‘The train is not only a sound but is also ‘bright blinding light’ as well’

Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few believed there might be more to a train than an impersonal sound and light. So again they sent a third young boy to investigate. He also began to patiently wait and stay for as long as it takes. He began experiencing the sound getting louder and the light getting brighter, louder and louder the sound was becoming while at the same time the light was becoming brighter and brighter – then to his surprise, both the sound and light passed him by. To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train. Behind the sound and light was form, or objects like carriages that are filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different activities? He ran back to the village yelling,

‘The train is a form from where the sound and light emanated, where people are engaged in all kinds of activity’.

They all eventually saw the train for what it really is (Personalism) Brahman therefore is held together by form

The highest realizing is Personalism. The above painting is of Krishna and His brother Balarama whose abode Goloka-Vrindavan is beyond the impersonal light or impersonal Brahman destination of impersonalist yogis and Buddhists. There are three basic aspects of the absolute truth. The goal of human life is to perfect ones individuality, identity, Personality by serving a bonafide Spiritual Master and again begin to re-establish ones eternal relationship with Krishna. In this way one should not foolishly attempt to extinguish ones individual identity in some nonsense ‘It’s all one’ atheistic madness by only mediating on the Impersonal sound Om or tying to delete ones individual identity and attempt to merge into the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, Nirvana or Clear Light.

The complete picture of Krishna’s creation therefore can only be realized through the favour of Krishna’s Pure Devotees.

The Jains, Buddhist, Impersonalists Yogis and Mayavadis are compared to the villager hearing the sound or only seeing the light and foolishly believing that formless impersonalism is the ‘Absolute Truth’. They are not seeing the bigger picture of what the Absolute Truth really is as described in the previous narrative about the train.

The Impersonalist Yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists version of Brahmajyoti (Nirvana) is ONE all pervasive life force with no individuality or identity which is really atheism. Impersonalist yogis, Mayavadis and Buddhists do not believe in individual souls (jivas). They therefore believe the ultimate end of existence is to perfect their constitution by accumulating the knowledge (cit) of how to end the cycle of birth and death (karma), then merge their consciousness into the oneness of Nirvana
(void or light) like rivers flow into the ocean, denying the existence of identity, individuality, personality and perpetual bodily form.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti is where individual nitya-baddha-souls (impersonalist yogis) remain dormant without having any knowledge of their original and eternal nitya-siddha bodily form. This state of suspended animation and forgetfulness is also known as Impersonalism. Even this state of inactive dreamless existence in the Brahmajoyti is temporary, although it may seem to lasts for an almost a time without end, in the face of the eternal ‘prsents’ in Goloka, it is only less than a moment.

They therefore cannot understand the eternal unchanging perpetual Krishna Conscious living universe (Goloka) where a blissful loving relationship exists with Krishna and His eternal associates. This Perpetual Living Universe of Lord Krishna’s is beyond the cloud cover known as the material creation or mahat-tattva. Srila Prabhupada says ‘ ‘where there is light there is no darkness’.

Bhakta Rod

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 29, 2007 @ 2:30 pm

Shiva says – ‘That is not quite right. A metaphor doesn’t imply that something is not real, it implies that something, like an idea or word or conception, is representing or designating another. If the conception of Maha Vishnu dreaming is not a metaphor then it is literal. In fact it cannot be literal because Maha Vishnu is a swamsa or plenary expansion of Krsna i.e. Maha Vishnu is Krsna’.

It is a fact that Maha-Vishnu is laying down dreaming and His DREAM IS THE MATERIAL CREATION OR MAHAT-TATTVA

“This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes:

Yah karanarnava – jale bhajati sma yaga
Nidram ananta – jagad- anda- saroma- kupah

This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.”
Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

This description of the material dreaming characteristic of our marginal (nitya-baddha identity) has been a controversial subject for so long however, Shiva must understand that the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the dreams of the marginal living entity, that takes residence within Maha-Vishnu’s material dreaming creation, are certainly not on the same ‘mental’ state’ of illusionary dreams that we all have in our present material biological bodies.

No, it is not like that interpretation of the word dream.

Maha-Vishnu is sleeping and dreaming and our bodily vessels and their surroundings are all part and parcel of His mahat-tattva dream

“The modes of nature divide the soul’s consciousness into normal wakefulness, dreaming and dreamless sleep. All such varieties of perception, however, are actually Maya and exist only like a dream”. Text 34 Purport Canto 11

Srila Prabhuapada calls non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and says we are ‘thinking’ or ‘dreaming’ that we are separated from Krishna but actually there is simply a cloud covering our vision of seeing Krishna and who we really are.

What does this mean

The secondary nitya-baddha ‘dreaming’ conscious state of the jiva-tatastha, is an authentic and real condition that ALL living entities can activate if they choose to use their free will and ignore Krishna and their authentic ‘svarupa’ body they serve Krishna as. The permanent bodily Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha feature of the marginal living entity is the bona fide permanent spiritual identity that ALL marginal living entities are endowed with.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”.

Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.
We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu Our authentic constitutional eternal self is nitya-siddha in Goloka

Srila Prabhupada also uses the analogy of the cloud covering the sun, its not that the sun is not there, but rather is that we cannot see the sun similarly, the nitya-baddha consciousness is like the cloud and the only when that cloud (nitya-baddha consciousness) dissipates, can we see the sun or our true perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily identity.

The problem with the dream analogy is many foolishly relate this dream state with the biological body of nine gates. This is due to not understanding what the ‘dream’ means in this context in relation to maha-Vishnu. The DREAMING CONCEPT simply means we have ALL come down from Goloka and our consciousness has become covered like a cloud covers the sun, or like dust covers the mirror or like smoke covers the fire – dreaming simply means being covered to the point you cannot see who you really are, just like in the dark, one cannot see themselves and those around them due to the absents of light, therefore, presently a blanket of ‘darkness’ covers the marginal living entity in the material world, that ‘blanket of darness’ is called the nitya-baddha consciousness. The uncovered state is ones real eternal DEVOTIONALLY ACTIVE BODILY identity called the nitya-siddha genuin self that perpetually resides in Krishna’s eternal pastimes in Goloka.

The marginal living entity therefore can choose to use their ‘marginal’ freewill and venture as the non-Krishna Conscious covered nitya-baddha characteristic (the covered state) of their marginal identity to the mahat-tattva ‘dreaming’ creation of Maha-Vishnu. The nitya-baddha consciousness therefore is an existent living part and parcel of ones own marginal potency or individual identity that is a secondary feature of the individual living entity that’s restricted view simply manifests due to ones REAL authentic nitya-siddha bodily identity being covered like the cloud blocks out the sun or like ones dreams at night makes one forget their present body.

In this way the mahat-tattva DREAM is real, however it is also temporary due to its fading scenery of past, prsent and future and that is why it is called illusion, that which is not – Maya.

Each living entity has their ceaseless nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka or Vaikuntha and also has the ability, due to the freedom to choose, to arouse their non-Krishna conscious desire, thoughts and imaginings that ARE like a dark cloud that covers ones perpetual ‘svarupa’ identity. This ‘lower self or secondary consciousness’ blocks out ones awareness, service and vision of real permanent self and is known as ones nitya-baddha COVERED consciousness, a state of restricted perception that all marginal living entities can trigger (be covered by) if they no longer want to stay with Krishna in Goloka..

In this way this attribute within the mahat-tattva or material creation and the impersonal Brahmajyoti, ones jiva-soul identity is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair IN OUR dimension of awareness within the maha-tattva, AND can also move on to a dreamless dormant state within the impersonal trait of the Brahmajyoti that can only also exist outside the personal active realm of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

The Impersonal feature of Brahman or the Brahmajyoti cannot exist as independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities secondary nitya-baddha consciousness in an inactive dormant dreamless state.

Srila Prabhupada says that only those who DO NOT ‘DREAM’ of selfish independance in the material world with their mistaken desires, thoughts, aspirations and imaginaion, are in always Goloka in their original bodily constitutional position and Never FALL DOWN OR COME DOWN to the material creation. They have chosen to NEVER dreamin of the material world. This means prsently we are caught up in a dream we think is real but in comparison to the eternal ‘presents’ in Goloka, it is only real for a short time, then fades away to the point that it never was, hence the meaning of Maya, that which is not.

THIS IS WHAT THE WORD DREAM MEANS IN THIS ABSOLUE CONTEXT. The dream we are presently having in the material creation or mahat-tattva, that IS our material body and mind and its surroundings, is an illusion (that is real but temporary) created by Maha-Vishnu; hence dream means illusion in the material world, something that fades away to the point that it will seem that it never really existed. Real existence is permanent and never fades away. Therefore the material ‘dream’ existence is real, but only temporarily real. Eventually your material body and mine will be as if it never was, as if it never even existed in the first place.

Srila Prabhupada – “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. That is the secret understanding in all Vedic literature” Text 1b:Canto 4 Purport Srimad Bhagavatam

Srila Prabhupada – “One is actually dreaming due to incomplete knowledge, just as one may dream that one has wakened from a dream”. Canto 11 Text 30 Purport

Srila Prabhupada – “As an object of enjoyment or a permanent residence for the conditioned souls, the material universe is certainly illusion, nothing more than a dream. One may give the analogy that the vision of abundant water in a desert is no more than a dream, although real water exists elsewhere. Similarly, the vision of home, happiness and reality within matter is certainly no better than a foolish dream in which repeated miseries appear.

In another sense, however, the universe is real. In his commentary on Vedanta-sūtra, Śrīla Madhvācārya has confirmed this by quoting the following statement from the Vedic śruti-mantras: satyam hy evedam viśvam asrjata. “This universe, created by the Lord, is real.” The perfect authority of the Vedas thus certifies this universe to be real; nevertheless, because our knowledge is stolen by illusion (as indicated here by the words asta-dhisanam), we cannot properly understand this universe or the Supreme Lord who has created it. As the expansion of Lord Krishna, the universe is real and is meant for being engaged in His service. One who accepts the kingdom of God as home, the Lord Himself as the object of love, and the material universe as paraphernalia for being engaged in the Lord’s service dwells within eternal reality wherever he may go within the material and spiritual worlds”.Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.14.22 Purport

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 26, 2007 @ 3:50 pm

Kesava Krsna dasa says “The waking process may take some time. If it is very rare to attain bhava where our true eternally awakened self is developed, shedding the gross and subtle dream body, then only a greedy, hungry effort, anxious to adopt all positive awakening procedures may expedite matters. Lord Krsna states:

‘After many births and deaths, he who actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knows Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.’ – BG. 7.19.

Reading Kesava Krsna prabhu’s essays are always very inspiring and his contibution can only help others advance further along the devotional path of Krishna Consciousness

Hare Krishna Bhakta Rod

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 18, 2007 @ 12:22 pm

Brisbane’s Hare Krishnas Chant and Dance for Rain

Very interesting preaching, the more people that are introduced to ISKCON the more the slaughter of animals and other sinful activities will begin stop. Let’s face it, our modern society is exploiting and raping the land so much so that the extremes in climate can only get worse. When it does rain it floods are the crops are ruined in that way, and when it doesn’t rain the crops are ruined by drought. It’s a fact that Lord Caitanya’s movement can change the bleak destiny and future of mankind by this kind of preaching, in fact it is the only way.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 3, 2007 @ 2:04 pm

Lord Caitanya Preached pure bhakti / constitution of the soul

Very well researched and explained. The real war going on in human society is the fight against Impersonalism

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 1, 2007 @ 3:37 pm

Our constitutional body is eternal, could it be that we are presently dreaming?

Raghavendu says – “So, to keep their fall-from-goloka conception alive they have created with their fertile brains this philosophy that says that the conditioned jiva souls are not fallen but that they are simply in Goloka in their spiritual bodies, eternal swarupas, dreaming that they are in the material world”.

I would like to correctly point out to Raghavendu that it is not me saying we are eternally situated in Goloka and presently only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are not there, it is Srila prabhupada explaining to us that our original position is in Goloka and that we only ‘dream’ or ‘think’ we are fallen..

Your argument is therefore with the words from His Divine Grace A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and not with me. Clearly without any doubt whatsoever Srila Prabhupada tells us we ALL come down from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully”(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

Srila Prabhupada – “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original, constitutional position. That will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service”(Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”.In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 196

Srila Prabhupada – “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “We have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “When the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only”

Srila Prabhupada – “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada clearly states “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”. Letter to Australian devotees 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go. It is there they are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 5, 2007 @ 8:38 pm

Akruranatha prabhu says – “The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move. It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is”

I associated with Padmalochan Prabhu in Vrndavana, if it’s the same devotee who knows so much about Vrndavana. He was a very knowledgeable devotee back then in the mid seventies therefore his understanding of Vrndavana and Srila Prabhupada’s books can only have become more nectarine over the years.

I would like to share a personal realization with you –

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint wihin the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie, putting the dvd player on hold or pause, let me explain -.

It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here.On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva. In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 5, 2007 @ 1:03 pm

Japa Jim, there is an impersonal ring to how you have understood the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. You do not explain or possibly do not understand that the effulgence of Krishna (His Brahman effulgence) is founded on Personalism. Srila Prabhupada explains the following of what Krishna’s effulgence, Brahmajyoti or lustre is –

“The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada – “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara – “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada – “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 5, 2007 @ 10:19 am

The following are comments on the origin of the jiva soul by Drutakarma dasa who answers two comments from those who have doubts about our original eternal svarupa position.

COMMENT: “Your conclusion Drutakarma assumes from the statement:`in the past you had a very intimate friend.’To me this refers to relation with paramatma which [is] mentioned in the verses, and relationship with paramatma is at best neutral rasa. When it refers to friend, the lord is the friend to all eternally, though the jiva does not recognize him as friend.”

Drutakarma’s explains: “The friend is not only paramatma but ultimately Krishna Himself, who is appearing now in the form of Supersoul to speak to Vaidarbhi about the former intimate relationship she had with Him.

Srila Prabhupada said:

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramatma, appeared before the queen as a brahmana, but why didn’t He appear in His original form of Sri Krsna?” (SB 4.28.51 purport).

This question indicates that it could just as well have been Sri Krsna who addressed the words “in the past you had a very intimate friend” to the Queen.

Prabhupada answered the question thus:

“Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks that unless one is very highly elevated in loving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot see Him as He is.(SB 4.28.51 purport).

The question and its answer suggest that the original intimate friendly relationship of the Queen was with Krsna,and not His Supersoul expansion.

Also,in text 4.29.4,Narada Muni,who told the story of the brahmana and Queen Vaidarbhi, said:

yo ‘vijnatahrtas tasya
purusasya sakhesvarah
yan na vijnayate pumbhir
namabhir va kriya-gunaih

“The person I have described as unknown is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master and eternal friend of the living entity. Since the living entities cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by material names, activities, or qualities,He remains everlastingly unknown to the conditioned soul.”

The relevant synonyms are purusasya “of the living entity,” sakha “the eternal friend,” and isvarah “the master.”

COMMENT: “Drutakarma you are often dwelling on individual word meanings such as “again”, “reinstated,” “forgetfulness” cannot be conclusive to show a previous direct relationship.

Drutakarma again further explains: “Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto
ramamano ‘sruta-smrtih
tat-sangad idrsim prapto
dasam papiyasam prabho

“My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment.Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions.”

Asruta smrtih is translated by Srila Prabhupada as “without remembrance of spiritual existence.” The nature of that spiritual existence, intimate friendship with Krsna has been described in previous verses. Here it is clear that dwelling on the individual word meaning “forgetfulness” is in fact conclusive.

Also text 4.28.64

evam sa manaso hamso
hamsena pratibodhitah
sva-sthas tad vyabhicarena
nastam apa punah smrtim

“In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction.”

Very clear translation. The living being was originally Krsna conscious. And he lost this Krsna consciousness because of material attraction. This verse does not say that the jiva was never at any time a servant of Krsna.

The Sanskrit here is also very clear.

The synonyms given by Srila Prabhupada are nastam “which was lost”, apa “gained”, punah “again”,smrtim “real memory.”

In other words, that which was lost is regained. I do not see how anyone can argue with this. It is right there in the Bhagavatam, in the Sanskrit. And the purport, naturally, goes right along with it. Here follow some excerpts.

“When the inferior swan is separated from the other swan, he is attracted to material enjoyment. This is the cause of his falldown. When he hears the instructions of the other swan, he understands his real position and is again revived to his original consciousness.” Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

“The word sva-sthah, meaning `situated in one’s original position,’ is very significant in this verse. When one gives up his unwanted attitude of superiority, he becomes situated in his original position. The word tad-vyabhicarena is also significant, for it indicates that when one is separated from God due to disobedience, his real sense is lost. Again, by the grace of Krsna and guru, he can be properly situated in his liberated position. These verses are spoken by Srila Narada Muni, and his purpose in speaking them is to revive our consciousness.” Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

Narada Muni further states in text 4.29.26:

yadatmanam avijnaya
bhagavantam param gurum
purusas tu visajjeta
gunesu prakrteh sva-drk

“The living entity by nature has minute independence to choose his own good or bad fortune, but when he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead, he gives himself up to unto the modes of material nature.”

The important synonyms are atmanam “the Supreme Soul,” avijnaya “forgetting,”bhagavantam “the Supreme Personality of Godhead,” param “supreme,” gurum “the instructor,”indicating that one forgets the Supreme Lord Krsna. Note the word bhagavantam, clearly indicating Krsna, not simply the Supersoul.

In his purport, Srila Prabhupada states:

“It is clearly stated herein that the living entity has a little independence, indicated by the word sva-drk, meaning `one who can see his own welfare.’ The living entity’s constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled in his choice. He may choose to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A servant may desire to start his own business and imitate his master, and when he chooses to do so, he may leave the protection of his master. Sometimes he is a failure, and sometimes he is successful. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of Krsna, starts his own business to compete with the Lord.” Bhag. 4.29.26 purport

Drutakarma in this way clearly explains that it is comprehensible that originally there is a master-servant relationship going on, and that it gets forgotten. Liberation means remembering it, remembering our eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa identity that is eternally founded and situated beyond mundane time and space.

I think the final say in all of this is humbly explained as follows-

“In absolute reality there is no such thing as three features of time. The problem with this discussion is that we are trying to filter God through the limits of three aspects of time. If there was no past and if there is no future, then the question ceases to exist. In the Bhagavatam’s description of creation, the time factor only influences material existence from the point of the Mahat-tattva (i.e. after the agitation of the pradhana). Vishnu, who exists beyond material influence has no limiting connection to this three fold illusory time. And since time only manifests at the point of material creation, when we return there we would never have been gone”. Jahnava Nitai Das

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Nov 3, 2007 @ 5:11 pm

So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

In the Śrī Caitanya Caritamrta the nitya-baddha condition of the marginal living entity is clearly described. In the following quotes – ”

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, “My dear Rūpa, please listen to Me. It is not possible to describe devotional service completely; therefore I am just trying to give you a synopsis of the symptoms of devotional service” Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.137

Then Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu then went on to explain the jiva’s fall down and being covered within the mahat-tattva (material creation) only.

“Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, ‘the ocean of the transcendental mellows of devotional service is so big that no one can estimate its length and breadth. However, just to help you taste it, I am describing but one drop. In this universe there are limitless living entities in 8,400,000 species, and all are wandering within this universe. The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. If we divide the tip of a hair into a hundred parts and then take one of these parts and divide it again into a hundred parts that very fine division is the size of but one of the numberless living entities. They are all cit-kaṇa, particles of spirit, not matter. If we divide the tip of a hair into one hundred parts and then take one part and divide this into another one hundred parts, that ten-thousandth part is the dimension of the living entity. This is the verdict of the chief Vedic mantras. [Lord Kṛṣṇa says:] ‘Among minute particles, I am the living entity. “Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.138- 142

In this way Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is describing our secondary ‘dreaming’ nitya-baddha consciousness that has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature of ones marginal identity, therefore each individual living entity that chooses to project their conditional non-Krishna Conscious nitya-baddha conscious characteristic of their marginal identity, is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

“The length and breadth of the living entity is described as one ten-thousandth part of the tip of a hair. This is the original subtle nature of the living entity. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.139

The Impersonal feature of Brahman cannot exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence IS the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks of light particals within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below –

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Srila Prabhupada’s Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11
“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 31, 2007 @ 2:32 pm

Japa Jim says “Our siddha ‘svarupa’ is currently in seed form only”.

Japa Jim seed form means our eternal svarupa bodily form that is eternally founded, placed and endlessly situated beyond mundane time and space within Goloka or Vaikuntha. In other words ‘we’ are already there and we just have to become ‘Krishna consciously pure enough to realize it’

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Hansadutta – “It’s not a matter of aspiring to some –

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there is no question of aspiring, because he is already situated in the best of relationships with Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada –”When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “Similarly, we have got an eternal relationship with Krishna, either as father or as lover or as servant, like that. So that is self-realisation. When you will be perfect in love, in loving Krishna, then in what status of life you will love, that you will under–…That will be revealed. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This ‘clearly means’ our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada – “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada – “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada – “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972
When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada – “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream.lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada – “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 31, 2007 @ 1:43 pm

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?’ Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

Prabhupada – “originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya
zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world”

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. Srimad Bhagavatam class Japan

Srila Prabhupada – ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976 Questions to Srila Prabhupadfa of how we fell down from Goloka, (not as our nitya-siddha body) as our dreaming nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness –

Guru-krpa – “They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . .”

Acyutananda – “The original sin”.

Sudama- “Why we are envious”.

Guru-krpa – “How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . .”

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Yes’.

Guru-krpa – “How is it that . . .

Srila Prabhupada – “That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate”.

Sudama – “It is very hard to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada – “No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult”.

Acyutananda – “It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”.

Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada – “But if he likes, he can return”.

Acyutananda – “He can return”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”.Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada

Acyutananda – “In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in

Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krishna’s associates?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall”. Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967

This clearly means our nitya-siddha body can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM WE LEAVE.

The mahat-tattva is the place where such dreams go and that is also why Maha-Vishnu is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva which takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Visnu, as the Brahma Samhita describes: Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Visnu. The real factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation.” Purport to SB. 4.29.83.

Srila Prabhupada – “The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice is nicely illustrated by Milton in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead”. Sri Caitanya Caritamrita Adi 5.22

Srila Prabhupada – “Everything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.” SB. 4.29.2b.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period is considered as a second”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia

Srila Prabhupada – “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna” Letter to Australian devotees 1972
When we’re dreaming, we think it’s real. It seems real, no matter how mixed up the dream is. That’s life in the material world. We think it’s real, but it’s not. It’s a real dream. But still a dream.

Srila Prabhupada – “when the dream is finished, we come to another dream: “Oh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.” This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and nighttime dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, he’s in the dreamland” Bombay, December 27, 1972

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 27, 2007 @ 9:59 pm

Tatastha s’akti refers to the jiva soul’s sovereignty as an individual living being (you and I) and IS ‘our’ perpetual identity, personality, individuality and desires that communicate our own autonomous way of thinking of how to serve and please Krishna in a selfless manner, that remains that way for all eternity. This loving exchange or reciprocation with Krishna and His devotees is the purpose of all marginal living entities and why they have free will. It is simply there so the living entity can express their own splendid loving exchanges of humble devotion service and gratitude to Krishna, in their own unique way. If there is no such choice of expression and free will, then how can there be love?

We therefore eternally exist independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable superior energy (Lord Krishna), where our authentic everlasting genuine bodily self is always serving Krishna, or we can ignore Krishna and who we really are altogether, and take shelter (not as a perpetual svarupa body) within the perishable inferior energy (mahat-tattva material creation) of Maha Vishnu.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 26, 2007 @ 6:45 pm

Omdas says – “So the tatastha region is in between the spiritual and material worlds, and is where the living beings are manifested”

Omdas prabhu, we (the jiva-tatasthas) have never manifested because we have always existed, we (the marginal living entities) are not a region or place in creation. The marginal plane IS the individual independent living beings, the marginal energy, jiva-soul or tatastha-s’akti therefore is NOT a position or area in creation as Akruranatha prabhu also correctly explained to us. The marginal living entities are simply the jiva soul’s individual identity that eternally exists as independent thinking entities or beings that can choose to serving the Superior energy (Krishna) as their perpetual body, or be covered by the inferior energy (fleeting material energy of subtle [ethereal] and gross [biological] bodily vessels) within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

Although there is a paradox to all this or an apparent contradiction here, which is, even though the marginal living entities are independent thinkers, still they are always fully dependant on the Lords Superior or inferior energy to express their independent desires.

Tatastha s’akti then refers to the jiva souls sovereignty as a living being (you and I) who have ‘our’ identity, personality, individuality and desires or our own way of thinking eternally. We therefore eternally exists independently, not in some place in-between the spiritual creation and the material creation, but rather under the influence of free will that can CHOOSE BETWEEN the imperishable super energy (Lord Krishna), or take shelter of the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) This is an important point to understand.

Therefore JIVA TATASTHA refers to us, the living entities who are presently covered by the transitory inferior material energy (ethereal and biological vessels)

How have we fallen to the material world?

We have all attained our present condition of existence in the material creation due to firstly choosing between the Lord’s two energies. We all have our genuine place or full Krishna Conscious potential in Goloka or Vaikuntha that is everlastingly there, yet also always have the choice to remain aware of our perpetual svarupa body and genuine identity in Vaikuntha that is constantly serving Krishna. We therefore can use our God given ‘marginal’ free will to foolishly enter the perishable universe of imagination and fleeting dreams as our mistaken desires and thoughts to achieve absolute power over all I purvey. However, in our forgetful state we forget that all our desires, dreams and thoughts are given the facility to exist only by the mercy of Maha-Vishnu who is the great facilitator of His maha-tattva creation.

Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy because they ARE the marginal energy and are therefore ETERNALLY called jiva-tatastha.

The marginal living beings (jiva-soul or tatastha s’akti) are autonomous expansion of Lord Krishna that has no beginning, no origin, or ending. They can choose to remain Krishna Conscious in their full devotional potential or transcendental body under the loving supervision of the superior energy (Krishna in Goloka or Vishnu in Vaikuntha), or be covered by the inferior energy (mahat-tattva) In both cases the Supreme Lord is the origin and maintainer of the living entities, whether in their perpetual natural ‘svarupa’ Krishna conscious devotional service in Goloka or Vaikuntha, or if they have chosen to miss use their free will to abandon who they really are by entering the transitory illusionary dreams of greatness and chasing such desires within Maha-Vishnu’s dreaming temporary creation (mahat tattva).

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

“The space and time of the spiritual world are completely different from the space and time you are experiencing in this inert world. Material time is divided into past, present and future. But in the spiritual world there is only the one imperishable present time. Every event in the spiritual world is ever present. Whatever we speak or describe in the material world is under the influence of material space and material time”. Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

The statement above clearly explains how the imperishable higher feature of the jiva-tatastha is ones eternal ’svarupa Krishna Conscious body’ which is ones perpetual constitutional position that is eternal present in Vaikuntha. The permanent characteristic of the jiva tatastha is ones eternal svarupa body which is the perpetual constitutional original position of all marginal living beings.

Consequently the secondary conscious characteristic of the jiva tatastha that becomes covered by the inferior energy or mahat-tattva, is nothing other than a dreaming condition that temporarily exists while the one unconscious of their full constitutional bodily foundation in Goloka. The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entities (jiva-souls) have always existed without beginning or end. Srila Prabhupada explains this –

“For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain. O Pārtha, how can a person who knows that the soul is indestructible, eternal, unborn and immutable kill anyone or cause anyone to kill?”Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.20 – 21

“The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same”. Bhagavad Gita as it is 2.23 – 24

In conclusion, the marginal living entities (tatastha s’akti) nitya-siddha identity is perpetually beyond the mundane decaying effect of time and space in the material creation (mahat-tattva) and is ‘always’ in Goloka. In other words ones eternal svarupa is always in Goloka.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 26, 2007 @ 12:36 pm

It seems it is very difficult for many of us to understand what the marginal living entity or jiva tatastha actually is and where we (the marginal living entities) perpetually reside. To many of us the correct understanding of jiva tatastha is still a mystery and not correctly understood.

The fact is that many devotees find this difficult to comprehend, which is that the full devotional and bodily potential of the marginal living entities (jiva-tatastha) are already perpetually present in Goloka and that their svarupa body is always their founded endlessly in the never ending ‘present’ as their original rasa bodily form, regardless if they are dreaming in the mahat-tattva or impersonal Brahmajyoti.

To suggest anything else IS impersonalism because if they say we did not originate from Goloka, then the only other place is an impersonal origin.

Srila Prabhupada rejected the idea we originated from some impersonal Brahmajyoti fantasy or myth.

“The fact is the individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. ” BG 13.23 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

“Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down”. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

“The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) and eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis, Swami’s Guru’s and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays. The rays of the sun are compared to the living impersonal Brahmajyoti which is the ‘collective’ individual jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) that are like particles of light that makes up the sunshine and consequently appear in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu) ‘This in between state is called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman.

It is in this way that this Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not and can never represent the full potential or Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of tatastha s’akti (the marginal living entity) because ones genuine self is eternally established in the endless ‘presents’ of Goloka and Vaikuntha that is beyond the influence of mundane time and space. The jiva-tatasthas souls that have projected themselves into the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are for that reason in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness unaware of their perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it is only the lower non Krishna conscious condition of the jiva tatastha that has merged into a individual collective called the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence and imagination for the jiva tatastha.

“Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Letter the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 25, 2007 @ 7:55 pm

Jappa Jims understanding of the marginal living entity is incorrect. He says – “So, it appears from these two references that marginal energy is when spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance and becomes a mixture of internal and external energy. This condition does not apply to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha/Goloka, so it seems that we cannot really apply the “marginal” designation to them”.

The accurate meaning of tatastha s’akti should be correctly understood. This is explained very nicely by Urdhvaga das

“The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

“Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency” CC Adi 5.41 pp.

“The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions – sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. ” BG 8.3 pp.

“The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY; he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. ” BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord’s two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities.

If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our ‘original position’. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969.

“Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.

Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health.”
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Comment -In this way the living entities are called marginal potency because they are naturally surrounded by and serving the Superior energy (Krishna and His Vishnu expansions) in their original perpetual body in Vaikuntha, or can choose to use their free will and become covered by the temporary inferior energy in the forms of decaying ethereal and biological bodies (MATERIAL) within the mahat-tattva or material creation.

The jiva-tatastha or marginal living entity can also further enter the greatest phenomenon and mystery that has perplexed so many pandits, scholars, Sadhus, yogis and Vaishavas for thousands of years, and that is a dormant dreamless state of individual consciousness that is part of a quiescent collective called the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

The Impersonal Brahman is neither the superior energy nor the inferior energy. Let me explain. Achintya-Bheda-Abheda is applicable here because Krishna, like the sun, is the source of the sunrays, therefore achintya-Bheda-Abheda is appropriate here because just as the analogy that the sun and the sun are inseparable, the superior energy Krishna and the marginal living entity jiva-tatastha are always together and indivisible like the sun and the sunrays.

The impersonal Brahmajyoti or the ‘collective’ jiva tatasthas (marginal living entities) consequently can appear also in a dormant state of inactive consciousness that exists in-between the SUPERIOR ENERGY (Krishna and His many Vishnu expansions) and the INFERIOR ENERGY (the material lifeless creation and bodily vessels, created by one of the Lords expansions, Maha-Vishnu)

It is in this way that the Impersonal Brahman or Brahmajyoti does not represent the full potential OR Krishna conscious perpetual bodily origins of the marginal living entity that is eternally present in Goloka. The jiva-tatasthas souls situated in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti are therefore in a dreaming static state of delusional individual consciousness that, like the mahat-tattva, is also a temporary state of existence.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 25, 2007 @ 5:08 pm

Jappa Jim says – “So, yes, we have not fallen down from Goloka.
We have never been in Goloka to fall from there. There is no falling from Goloka.
The pure devotees of Krishna are infallible as Lord Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita”.

Yes, He is exactly right as Srila Prabhupada has ALWAYS BEEN TRYING TO GET THROUGHT TO US. Try to understand that our svarupa body can never fall from Goloka –

“Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all, when the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

The following verse from Krsna Book refers to souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE and on their way to re-establishing their relationship with Krishna, therefore they first go to a place in the material world where Krishna is having His transcendental pastimes before they go back home, back to Godhead and awakened to their perpetual “svarupa body” that has always been in Goloka –

“Those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in the universes within the material world. Krsna’s pastimes are continually going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across this earthly planet, so Krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly.” Srila Prabhupadas Krsna Book

It is very clear that Krsna Book is referring to the conditioned souls withdrawing from MATERIAL EXISTENCE (the mahat-tattva) and on their way back to re-establishing or reawakening their eternal svarupa bodily relationship with Krishna that is perpetually founded in Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Krsna’s pastimes are always present in the material world in one of the many universes. These pastimes appear in the universes one after the other, just as the sun moves across the sky and measures the time. Krsna’s appearance may be manifest in this universe at one moment, and immediately after His birth, this pastime is manifest in the next universe.

Srila Prabhupada has clearly confirmed that we did indeed come from Goloka and we can fall down (not as our perpetual svarupa body as already explained) from Goloka if we choose to miss use our free will

Prabhupada – So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.

Vipina – Why doesn’t Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada – He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire, surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal, you do not do this

Vipina – Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: – That means you lose your independence.

Vipina – And no love.

Prabhupada – That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape? – 760708ed.wdc Conversations.

We always have choice, even in Goloka

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 24, 2007 @ 4:56 am

“This imaginary experience of a world separate from Krishna can be compared to the acts of dreaming and desiring. When the conditioned soul dreams at night of something desirable or horrible, or when he daydreams of what he would like to have or avoid, he creates a reality that has no existence beyond his own imagination”. (Bhag.11.2.38)

“just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you… Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you… Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, Krishna is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. The same example: Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming. We are not fallen. We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Comment (personal realizations I would like to share) – It is therefore impossible for the Impersonal feature of Brahman to exist as an independent effulgence because factually that effulgence is the marginal living entities surrounding Krishna and His unlimited Purusha expansions, just as the rays of the sun surround the sun. (Analogy only, never to be taken literally because our original perpetual position is sat, cit ananda VIGRAHA)

Only in the external realm outside the devotional active personal Vaikunthas and the central Goloka-Vrndavana planet, does ones forgetfulness of Krishna automatically cause the manifestation of the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. This dreaming like departure from Vaikuntha is the marginal living entities bodiless consciousness that is made up of thoughts, dreams and desires of self importance and grander.

Such ‘awareness’ is expressed as a living individual spark of jiva consciousness that is often referred to as an atom or molecule living as individual sparks light within an effulgence that is part of a collective that appear like individual rays of sunshine, which is the external impersonal aspect of Brahman, Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. This consciousness has all the substance of the jiva and is a real feature, therefore each individual is 10,000th the size of a tip of hair in our dimension of awareness.

In this condition ‘outside the active personal devotional Vaikunthas’, the jiva can exists in both the material creation as well as the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti, dreaming in the mahat-tattva or being dreamless or dormant in the impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyot. In both cases the marginal living entities are ‘consciously’ no longer aware of Krishna and His eternal pastimes.

They also have no memory or recollection of their own endless Krishna Conscious svarupa body that is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha. Therefore, just as in the absents of light there is darkness, similarly we find that the rebellious bodiless ‘dreaming’ consciousness, or lower self of the marginal living entities, are unable to see the transcendental body they really are. Therefore their existence is now described by the Vedas outside the divine realm of Vaikuntha, as particle of non-differentiated character due to the marginal living entities forgetfulness of Krishna and their own Svarupa body that is endlessly serving Krishna within the eternal realm beyond mundane time and space.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 22, 2007 @ 1:07 pm

All descriptions of the marginal living entity as spiritual sparks, atoms, molecules or rays of sunshine is also further clarified by Srila Prabhupada. Here he explains that originally all living entities have a constitutional bodily source as clearly described below –

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna that the impersonal Brahman is the expansive effulgence of His transcendental body, or that Paramatma is His all-pervading plenary expansion as the Supersoul. They cannot understand that Krsna has an eternal form of perfect bliss and knowledge and that they also have an eternal spiritual identity” Sri Isopanisad Mantra Twelve

“Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets. Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

“We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

“This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad Part Two

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

“These are the secrets of the acharyas. Sometimes, they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas–explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes, they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control.” Cc. Madhya, 25.42

“The word varnam refers to the luster of one’s original identity. The original luster of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original luster of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], is the luster of ānanda, or pleasure. Ānandamayo bhyāsāt. Every living entity has the right to become ānandamaya, joyful, because he is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [Bs. 5.1], Krishna. Why should the living being be put into tribulation because of dirty contamination by the material modes of nature? The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srila Prabhupada’s Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

“So when someone asks, when did we come into contact with the material nature?” The answer is that we have not come into contact. By the influence of the material energy we THINK that we are in contact. Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. We have simply created a situation. Rather, we have not created a situation; Krishna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, Krishna has given an opportunity: “All right. You want to imitate? You want to be an imitation king on the stage’- Tokyo in 1972 Srila Prabhupada

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 21, 2007 @ 3:35 pm

Akruranatha statement that. Quote: – “The passage quoted describes a history of the origins of jivas that our Srila Prabhupada did not describe for us. I agree with Bhakta Rod that it could misleadingly suggest to some readers that the impersonal brahmajyoti, if it is the place of “origin” for jivas, may be their natural home, whereas we know that we all belong to Krishna and that active devotional service in the spiritual sky is our true constitutional position.

Srila Prabhupada describes how we fell down from Vaikuntha.

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

“Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration . . . After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna.” – “The Origin of the Jiva” Australian conversation with Prabhupada

“We have come from the spiritual world into this material world. We have forgotten our Father. So we have to revive this relationship with our Father . . . God or Krishna.” – Lecture on October 7, 1975

“But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . . ” – Letter to Jagadisha das Adhikari on April 25, 1970

“Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 – 770218SB.MAY

And what is the full sense of existence as described in the Sri Isopanishad – “Originally EVERYONE is nitya-siddha” Srila Prabhupada – Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977 – 770218SB.MAY

It is clear that the original position, full potential and the perpetual bodily state of jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is nitya-siddha

” . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment . . . so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974

It is clear that if one is Krishna conscious then they will remain in Goloka as their eternal ‘svarupa’ body that is always there regardless. If they are not, then they ‘sub-consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva (material creation) via their thoughts, dreams and desires as nitya baddha and not as their nitya-siddha body, this is confirmed clearly by Srila Prabhupada –

“Actually, we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But . . . we have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation. Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krsna, so Krsna has given an opportunity: ‘All right. Imitate’. . . So this situation, our contact with matter, is just like dream. Actually, we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krsna consciousness. . . we can break this material connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krsna conscious. . . We can simply give up that illusory condition at any moment. At any moment. . . This is the position. We are not fallen. We are thinking fallen. So we have to give up this nonsense thinking. Then we are liberated.” – Bhagavatam lecture in Tokyo, April 20, 1972.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 19, 2007 @ 3:57 pm

Japa Jim says – “As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.” Sri Isopanishad 17 purport

And what is “the full sense of existence?” It is our original position of nitya-siddha as Srila Prabhupada has told us.’

“Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [Bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [Bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata”. Srila Prabhupada.

So how do we fall down?

How can anyone argue against this clear explanation from Srila Prabhupada? It is clear that if one is Krishna conscious then they will remain in Goloka as their eternal ‘svarupa’ body that is always there regardless. If they are not, then they ‘sub-consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva (material creation) via their thoughts, dreams and desires as nitya baddha and not as their nitya-siddha body.

It is clear that the original position, full potential and the perpetual bodily state of jiva tatastha (marginal living entity) is nitya-siddha

Could it be a complete misunderstanding of our eternal presents in Vaikuntha or Goloka by so many in our present pioneering generation that we can never fall down? It is true that the jiva-tatastha in our original svarupa body can never fall down as that Krishna conscious form because our svarupa identity is eternally present and can never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha. This is due to the ‘eternal presents’ that exist there beyond the divided ‘presents’ of past, present and future that exists in the maha-tattva. Could this be the correct understanding that one can never fall down from Goloka? If that is the case then there is no argument because our genuine bodily identity can never fall down, we only think we are fallen or dream we are fallen.

Our understanding of the teachings of Jiva Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura etc and all bona fide devotees in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya comes from the teachings of the most resent Acharaya in the Brahma Gaudiya disciplic succession and that is His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

“Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada says that as living souls we are all originally Krishna conscious. But what does that mean? Were we all originally with Krishna in the spiritual world? And if so, how could we ever have fallen? In Bhagavad-gita Lord Krishna says, “Once you attain to that spiritual world, you never fall.” So how then could we have fallen from there to begin with?

Some have tried to work around this problem by suggesting a different idea: We fell not from Krishna’s personal abode but from the brahmajyoti, the effulgent light that surrounds it. As stated in Srimad-Bhagavatam, yogis who seek the impersonal aspect of the Supreme may merge into that effulgent light—only to fall back later to the material world. Perhaps, then, we originally fell from the brahmajyoti.

Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea. Those in the brahmajyoti, he wrote, are not Krishna conscious, so they too are fallen. “So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition.

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 19, 2007 @ 10:06 am

Akruranatha – “I agree with Bhakta Rod that it could misleadingly suggest to some readers that the impersonal Brahmajyoti, if it is the place of “origin” for jivas, may be their natural home, whereas we know that we all belong to Krishna and that active devotional service in the spiritual sky is our true constitutional position. The author of the passage clearly is no impersonalist, however. The “side of dedication” is being extolled”.

It should be made apparent that the philosophy I quoted from another ‘sect’ unfortunately IS misleading and DOES leave the impression to many that our origins are from an impersonal source, that’s the point I am making in all humility.

As Prabhupada once said, ‘if the shoe fits then wear it”. Also Akruranatha’s idea that the author of the quote made might be appealing to impersonalists is interesting. However, all over the Internet, such a quote clearly and very openly suggest and encourages the false idea we have never been to Goloka and that we have originated from the Impersonal characteristics of the Brahmajyoti.

We have to be very careful in our diplomacy and even discrete with such sects who promote that the impersonal Brahmajyoti is our origins, no matter who they choose to quote. It should also be made clear, it is the way they are quoting the Vedas that is the problem and NOT the Vedas and the great Acharayas of the past.

It a fact when one accepts the direct meaning of the Sastra it is understood that the jivas are tatastha-sakti – i.e. they are the marginal potency of Krishna however, what is the original perpetual position of the jiva tatastha?

The Brhadaranyaka Upanisad states that the marginal position of the jiva:

“The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds”. (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.9)

Then our original position is explained –

However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.’ Prema-pradipa, p. 83

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

“Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy (maya) gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence”. CC Madhya 22.107:

Another misleading quote that fuels the idea our origin as are from some impersonal collective is as follows – “Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rati, or santa-rasa (neutrality) due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realisation, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time”

From Sastra and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada it is quite clear that there is possibility of fall down from the spiritual world, Vaikuntha or even Goloka Vrndavana due to free will. The fact that other sects preach their idea that one can never fall down apa-siddhanta (false conclusion) from the spiritual world is indeed sentimental and misleading.

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity. Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 Los Angeles

» Posted By Bhakta Rod On Oct 19, 2007 @ 9:54 am

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