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Comments Posted By Gauragopala dasa

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Theodicy on Fallen

Therefore there is nothing logically or illogical to believe we did not fall from Vaikuntha or how we FELL from Vaikuntha, free will of the marginal living entity is straight forward and that is a fact! What is explained above, has nothing to do with logic however, what is beyond logic is the ’causeless’ mercy of Lord Caitanya Maha prabhu who has made many ‘fools’ into devotees. A great devotee like Srila Prabhupada is the embodiment of an ocean of causeless mercy.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Sep 18, 2014 @ 11:26 am

Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature as marginal living entities. We can misuse such independence even in Goloka or Vaikuntha with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings.

This means a small minority, less than 10% of jiva-tattvas in Vaikuntha or Goloka choose to leave and become nitya baddha in the material world. For this purpose Krishna, via His Maha-Vishnu expansion, creates the mahat-tattva (material creation) for them.

The marginal living entities full potential of loving selfless devotion to Krishna and His loving devotees is based on individuality, independence and the right to choose; we never loose that right to choose, not even in Vaikuntha. Surrender to Krishna and His pure devotees does not mean to become ‘mindless’ stones in Vaikuntha as Prabhupada explains

No, everything in Vaikuntha is based on reciprocal loving service even if it is a fact that we surrender selflessly and unconditionally. The fact is that’s how Krishna also treats us. Having free will and choice gives us the opportunity to give ourselves in our own unique way as individuals. That choice is always there even in Goloka or Vaikuntha and must be there if genuine love is to exist.

It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. It’s all to do with a combination of ‘mistaken’ choices and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Sep 8, 2014 @ 6:23 pm

Devotee: God could have created me in such a way that I would never have fallen down.

Prabhupada: He has created, He has given you independence…

Devotee: Why has He given us that independence if we…?

Prabhupada: Then you are not living being. You are dull stone. God does not want that you remain a stone.

Devotee: “Free will” means living being.” (February 5, 1976, Mayapur)

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. — Melbourne, June 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Sep 8, 2014 @ 6:13 pm

ONLY FEW FALL — Eternally liberated never fall, with footnote

Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and THIS MINUTE INDEPENDECE MAY BE UTILIZED RIIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN by misuse of one’s independence.

Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970
Srila Prabhupada – Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. THESE SPIRIT SOULS AND ALL SPIRIT SOULS ARE COMING FROM VAIKUNTHA, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. THERE IS NO “ NEW” SOUL. “New’’ and “old’’ are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth so how there can be new soul?

Jagadisa Prabhu asked Srila Prabhupada if those in the passive relationship were more likely to fall. The letter from Srila Prabhupada of 02/27/1970 reads:

“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW”.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 13, 2014 @ 3:28 pm

Acyutananda: ‘But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return

Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Room Conversation February 19, 1976 Mayapur

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 13, 2014 @ 3:15 pm

Paramahamsa – “But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return.

Srila Prabhupada – “There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is”.

Paramahamsa – “If we want”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “So we can come to the spiritual world and return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

Paramahamsa – “Fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness.
Lecture by Srila Prabhupada May 13, 1973

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 13, 2014 @ 3:05 pm

By stating things like we cannot fall from Krsna’s presence, you obliterate (destroy) free will. What is the meaning of free will if it cannot be misused? In this way we CAN fall down from Vaikuntha however, most ‘choose’ not to

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 18, 2014 @ 6:21 pm

Ones fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana is due to free will and choice not maya, there is no material cause for ones fall down from Goloka Vrndavana

Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence. That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? ”So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom” Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada – “Those who are in the Brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition. The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down” Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 18, 2014 @ 2:36 pm

‘Vedic Tour of Our Universe’

From Mayesa Prabhu –In Satya Yuga people have very strong bodies that are bigger also, they live for 100,000 years. The Yuga dharma is meditation. By meditation they can get 8 mystic powers

But the weather is unbelievably beautiful and they are less disturbed by bugs and snakes etc they do not grow food, it grows by itself and they just select and eat. They do not need a king or a government

They live in trees. Special giant trees grew with natural hollows. They had no desire to construct buildings. This information is available in the Puranas so yes, they did live above the surface but not only in Vimanas and Sky palaces

dinosaurs

When the mini Pralaya comes water covers earth planet animals from everywhere float in that water, when the waters subside animal bodies lodge here and there and they find some big bones and ” imagine” what was the shape that is their nonsense

And bodies of demons from various places and their animals fall dead all over bhurloka this planet. That is directly Stated in the Puranas. So dinosaurs are left from water of pralays and people are bigger so why not animals bigger as well? Don’t worry if we are going to be embarrassed. All this modern science is soon to be overturned, every word of it, we must strictly preach what is in sastra and nothing else.

Moon hoax will be revealed also, so if we accept it we shall be the Biggest fools on the planet, remember a hoax is made only by a few. The hundreds that build the technology they will never know it is a sham. That is how you have success.

In WW2 the allies used loud speakers to make the enemy think there were thousands of vehicles when there was only one jeep. Similarly the allies constructed rubber planes and tanks so the Nazis would see they had more. Do you think every man in the army knew? This could have remained secret forever

Extra ordinary things are there in Puranas about other planets as well. Exact day of change from each age is given, extraordinary things. If we say what we do not find in Puranas the people will be disappointed and will not take us seriously

If you have Vimana you go to other planets so why only hover above earth? They are given a wonderful opportunity to live in Satya yuga and be able to perform the preferred religion. Demigods could come and preach here in Satya yuga – like Vaivasvata Muni, inhabitants could hear one time and remember for a life time

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 16, 2014 @ 4:27 pm

We are not seeing the full picture of the material universe with our biological eyes and its extended enhancements of telescopes and space probes that is also made of gross matter like our gross material bodies.

You cannot use gross matter to perceive the subtle or ethereal realms that is why modern scientists cannot see the heavenly or even the hellish worlds on other planets that are made of subtle and gross matter. Technically what we are trying to understand here is what happens after death of the biological material body and to where the subtle material vessel or body, that houses the soul or jiva while in the material creation, goes next.

We are trying to understand the after life and ultimately re-establishing our eternal original relationship with Krishna beyond the gross and subtle bodies and worlds of this temporary material universe

There are 14 planetary systems in the material universe that are all different levels of conscious awareness and dimensions, some are subtle matter and some are in other dimensions of gross matter.

We are limited to only one of those gross material realities that we perceive with our biological body in our dimension in time and space with its extensions of space probes, telescopes etc.

The ‘subtle’ material universe and the ‘ethereal material body’ that underlies all biological bodies, as well as parallel universes of gross matter like ours, has not yet been discovered by modern science

Actually the ‘ethereal or subtle body’ can NEVER be discovered by using ‘gross’ matter or its technological extensions, this why no one can prove the existence of ghosts that are actually all around us. In other words, you cannot see the full picture of the material universe with biological matter or its extensions of modern science and technology.

Only by developing higher realms of consciousness within oneself and NOT through mundane telescopes, space probes, electron microscopes, cameras and viewing the atomic realm with the Large Hadron Collider, can one EVER perceive the material universe in its full potential.

A devotee of Krishna on the other hand sees through the eyes of the Sastra or scripture like the Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad Gita as it is, the Caitanya Caritamrita and Surya Siddhanta that sees all of the different dimensions and realms of the material universe that is unseen by modern materialistic science.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 9, 2014 @ 8:46 pm

For more information on Vedic Cosmology and the 5th Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam please visit https://www.facebook.com/groups/DecodingVedicCosmology/

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jul 7, 2014 @ 4:28 pm

Bona-fide Study Rests The Case; We Fell From Love!

To say we, the marginal living entities, came from an impersonal origin, is not the teachings of Srila Prabhupada nor did the jiva tattva originate from Maha Vishnu, they rather, go through Him on their way to the mahat tattva or material creation from Vaikuntha and if the jiva tattva is not qualified to go back home back to Godhead, they remain merged in Him until the next material creation, we do not originate from Him or the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

Letter to: Revatinandana — Los Angeles 13 June, 1970

Srila Prabhupada – ‘The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness.

Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

The non-fallen condition is Krsna consciousness. So long one can maintain pure Krsna consciousness he is not fallen down. As soon as he becomes out of Krsna consciousness immediately he is fallen down. It does not matter where a living entity stays. In the material world also there are different stages of living conditions, and to remain in the brahman effulgence is also another phase of that fallen condition.

Just like in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated that conditioned souls by their pious activities are elevated to the higher planetary system, but as soon as the stock of pious activities is finished he again comes down on the earthly planet.

Similarly those who are elevated beyond the planetary system to the brahma effulgence, they are also prone to fall down as much as a living entity from the higher planetary system.

As such those who are thinking that they are liberated by being situated in brahman effulgence are described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam as impurely intelligent.

In other words, they are actually not liberated, and because they are not actually liberated they again come down to the material world as much as a living entity elevated to the higher planetary system comes down to this earthly planet.

So we do not accept anyone elevated to the brahman effulgence as actually liberated.”

Srila Prabhupada was very clear on this subject – “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swam 1972

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 15, 2014 @ 3:40 pm

Resting The Jiva-Fall / No-Fall Case

Srila Prabhupada undoubtedly understands those authorities better than you or I. Go back, and this time use Srila Prabhupada as your guide.

Srila Prabhupada is uniquely qualified to understand spiritual teaching. Such understanding is hardly a matter of academic scholarship. The Svetasvatara Upanisad, in its concluding verse (6.23), tells who among its readers will have revealed to them the purport of what they’ve read: only a great soul, a mahatma, who possesses pure devotion (para bhakti) to the Lord and, in equal measure, to his spiritual master.

Srila Prabhupada himself exhibited extraordinary devotion to the Lord and to his guru. Only because of that devotion was he empowered to achieve unprecedented success in preaching Krsna consciousness throughout the world. I take the greatness of his success as a measure of his greatness of soul, and therefore I accept him as empowered by Krsna also with the ability to penetrate deeply into the meaning of spiritual teaching. It is therefore my policy to follow him in his understanding.

This is what I tried to do in my Back to Godhead article. It is not that Srila Prabhupada was silent on the “jiva issue.” His disciples brought it up a number of times, and there are lectures, letters, and conversations in which he addressed it head on. Never once do we find him so much as hinting that Narada Muni’s account of the origin of bondage is a myth or fiction. Rather, he defends that account vigorously and teaches his disciples how to reconcile it with the statements that there is no fall from Vaikuntha, the spiritual world.
Explanation above is by Ravindra Svarupa dasa

The conclusion

By stating things like we cannot fall from Krsna’s presence, you obliterate (destroy) free will. What is the meaning of free will if it cannot be misused? In this way we CAN fall down from Vaikuntha however, most ‘choose’ not to

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 10:17 pm

It is clear that Narada Muni teaches here in Srimad-Bhagavatam that the conditioned souls dwelt originally in the spiritual world, their homeland, where they enjoyed a relation of active service with Krsna. However, these souls willfully gave up Krsna’s company in order to become enjoyers.

Srila Prabhupada explains that they wanted to imitate Krsna rather than serve Him. As Prabhupada states it elsewhere in his Bhagavatam commentary: “The first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord.”

In addition, Srimad-Bhagavatam repeatedly speaks of liberation in Krsna consciousness as a restoration, a return, a reawakening, a recovery, a remembering. Narada Muni uses such language himself a little further on in his allegory of the soul and Supersoul:

In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction.

In this verse “regains his original Krsna consciousness” is a translation of nastam apa punah smrtim. Krsna consciousness is literally a lost (nastam) memory (smrtim) which is gained (apa) once again (punah). In Srimad-Bhagavatam this terminology of forgetting and once again remembering is invoked over and over.

Remembering, regaining, returning, recovering all these terms presuppose a past state that had once been ours, had then become lost, and will be ours once more. Srimad-Bhagavatam teaches it, and so, of course, does Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada as Authority

What I have given is sufficient to establish the authority of the account of the jiva’s fall, and I will leave it at that. I may disappoint readers who will want proof-texting from authorities who stand between Narada Muni and Srila Prabhupada in the disciplic succession. I am confident, however, that Srila Prabhupada is a bona fide spiritual master.

As such, he is a “transparent medium” who represents (literally, presents over again) the entire tradition coming from Krsna. To those readers who claim not to have found in those authorities confirmation of the teaching spelled out here, I can only suggest that you go back and look again.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 10:03 pm

In the Fourth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Narada Muni narrates the allegorical story of King Puranjana. In the part that concerns us, Puranjana has just died and his widow, Vaidarbhi, is lamenting piteously. A brahmana approaches the queen and introduces himself as her “eternal friend.” The brahmana, who symbolizes the Supersoul, says to the grieving queen:

My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.

Commenting on these verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that the passage “gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world” refers to the soul’s fall from the spiritual into the material world. To explain “how the living entity falls down into this material world,” Srila Prabhupada quotes Bhagavad-gita 7.27: “All living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”

“In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate,” Prabhupada says. But “when the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world.” He elaborates further: “The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world.”

In Narada’s allegory, the brahmana speaks of himself and the queen as two swans symbolically the Supersoul and the soul who have wandered together far away from their “original home.” What place is that? Prabhupada explains:

The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 10:00 pm

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness this period is considered a second.

Here Srila Prabhupada explains how this condition of illusion is “very insignificant.” Not only is it insubstantial like a dream, but it is also momentary. Although within the dream unlimited years seem to pass, in reality the dream lasts virtually no time at all a “moment” or a “second.”

Then Srila Prabhupada offers another example of how a seeming long duration of time can last only an instant. He recalls the story of how the cowherd boys napped under the spell of Brahma for only one truti (or 8/13,500 of a second) of Brahma’s time while an entire year passed in human time.

Srila Prabhupada invokes the relativistic temporal structure of creation to explain how the illusion of the jiva is insignificant, and I followed him in my article. I attempted only to elaborate Srila Prabhupada’s explanation in a more systematic and explicit manner. In the example of the cowherd boys, one truti of Brahma’s time is contrasted to one year of human time.

If we consider the case of the sleeping jivas rather than the sleeping cowherd boys, how much greater would be the contrast between real time (in the spiritual world) and dream-time (in the material world)? Obviously, the “moment” in real time would become vanishingly small infinitesimally small while in “dream-time” it would become infinitely great anadi, without a traceable beginning.

In short, Srila Prabhupada uses the example of dreaming to say that the soul never really leaves Vaikuntha. And he alludes to the contrast between eternity and time to show that the soul’s period of illusion is objectively instantaneous, that it lasts virtually no time at all. In short, Srila Prabhupada uses the example of dreaming to say that the soul never really leaves Vaikuntha. And he alludes to the contrast between eternity and time to show that the soul’s period of illusion is objectively instantaneous, that it lasts virtually no time at all. This is how I derived my explanation from Srila Prabhupada. I focused my article on the relation between time and eternity because that seems the source of much of the difficulty in thinking about the jiva issue – Ravindra Svarupa Dasa is ISKCON’s Governing Body Commissioner for the U.S. mid-Atlantic region.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 9:45 pm

Crow and Tal Fruit explanation by Ravindra Svarupa dasa

Srila Prabhupada gives a more elaborate description of the nature of the jiva’s bondage in the paper entitled “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic.” (16) He sent this paper to the GBC representative in Australia in June of 1972 to settle a controversy that had arisen there over this issue. (17) “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” presents Prabhupada’s most thorough statement of the solution, and the paper was circulated throughout ISKCON. I saw it in Philadelphia that year and studied it carefully. Upon it I have based my reflections in the Back to Godhead article on eternity and time.

Prabhupada begins his paper by asserting our eternal and permanent relation with Krsna. “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna,” he says, and then he uses Srimad-Bhagavatam’s analogy of a dream to explain how the illusion of separation arises. He also takes care to explain how it is possible for even a liberated soul to become illusioned:

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even [when we are] with Krsna the desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

He then continues his exposition:

We cannot say, therefore, that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become the Lord, immediately we are covered by maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore [in the interim] many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness.

It is like in a dream: We are thinking it is a very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. To give another example: Krsna’s friends were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 9:39 pm

Many sceptics and those who foolishly believe we originate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, a ‘clear sheet of consciousness’ or the Vraja River or the Body of Maha Vishnu ask- “Please where have you heard this idea that we originally came from Goloka? Who is teaching you this? ”

ANSWER-

Srila Prabhupada teaches us we were once with Krishna – “These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities”. (letter to Jagadisa das, 1970)

Srila Prabhupada – “So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. (Lecture Washington DC Temple 1976)

Srila Prabhupada – “Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, THEREFORE WE MAY FALL DOWN FROM VAIKUNTHA AT ANY MOMENT iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa”. (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami and Australian devotees 1972)

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned (nitya-baddha). (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami and Australian devotees 1972)

Srila Prabhupada was very clear that WE HAVE ALL come from Goloka Vrndavana some millions of years ago – Srila Prabhupada – “So to go to God or Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Homburg, Germany, June 22, 1974

This seems to be pretty clear according to Srila Prabhupada, who rejects the ‘impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state from where one can use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Many follow that misunderstanding, they have incorrectly used the word ‘tatastha’ to describe this dormant origin state of the jiva however, long, long before being in that already fallen position he was with Krishna in Vaikuntha.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 4, 2014 @ 9:19 pm

Srila Prabhupada knows how many fall down to the material world from the Vaikuntha Planets, fall down is due to free will and choice and NOT Maya, in this way there is NO material cause for our fall down, we simply have independence and the ability to choose. Without a doubt, ALL marginal living entities or jiva tattvas originate from Vaikuntha as Srila Prabhupada explains

The following Conversation took place in Los Angeles, June 23, 1975 between Srila Prabhupada and Dr. John Mize

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.

Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.

Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone does not like to misuse their independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On Jun 2, 2014 @ 2:17 pm

Srila Prabhupada – “There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddha. Anyone who is in this material world–nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they belong to the spiritual world. They never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna’s nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world.” Lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973

However, the above comment is further expanded when Srila Prabhupada explains that actually originally we are all nitya-siddha devotees

Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

So the nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are NOT separate marginal living entities as some believe, they are in fact different dispositions of the one individual marginal living entity or jiva tattva.

Srila Prabhupada – “By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

Nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are two characteristics of each individual marginal living entity or jiva tattva; they are not separate marginal beings as some schools of thought believe. Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal nitya siddha servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned or nitya baddha’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned or nitya siddhas’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect because originally we were all nitya siddha.

Also Srila Prabhupada says this about never loosing our marginal identity – “The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world’. (Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968)

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 31, 2014 @ 9:36 am

We have to realize that being marginal means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love? Prabhupada tells us that originally all of us were nitya siddha in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana and now we have chosen to be nitya baddha in the material creation.

Srila Prabhupada – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva, the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu after the dissolution of the mahat tattva if we’re not qualified for Vaikuntha.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura – “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)

Srila Prabhupada – ” So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that ‘Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?’ I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could be come the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking”. July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?

Srila Prabhupada – “He’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do this”.

Vipina Purandara – “Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? ”

Srila Prabhupada – “That means you lose your independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “That is force, in Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!’ Is that love? So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you!’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?” July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 30, 2014 @ 3:23 pm

Srila Prabhupada – “Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna’s lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don’t waste your time with this “Kaka taliya nyaya,” crows and tal-fruit logic.” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”: In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti. According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance. Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents. In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva, Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the ISKCON Society”

The conclusion, Srila Prabhupada – “Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, (impersonal Brahmajyoti) he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long before that even he was with Krsna.”

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 2:51 am

Srila Prabhupada – “On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 2:43 am

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 2:41 am

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna’s friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 2:38 am

Fall from spiritual world. Myth or reality?

There is always respect for other sangas and sampridayas however, my comments are for those followers of Srila Prabhupada especially his direct disciples. For them he is there life and everything must be seen through his instructions.

Just like those in another Sampridaya or Sanga follow their Guru and instructions, ultimately through Srila Prabhupada we follow the teachings of Lord Caitanya. Even Jesus said to his disciples ‘I AM the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father, but by me’ This is how one should feel towards their Spiritual Master and for ISKCON devotees ALL past Acharays are seen through the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

Following a genuine bonafide Guru as his disciple is the same thing for those who can find such a rare teacher and Spiritual guide, what ever he instructs you as his disciple, you must do, then you will achieve perfection in devotional service in this life, if he can do that then he is bonadide similarly, I must follow Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, the fact is if we do not follow our Spiritual Master, then as Prabhupada says ‘we are only carving our way to a hellish horrible life.

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 1:35 pm

We do not have a problem with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Books but we DO have problem with MIS-INTERPRETATIONS from Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s books. In fact, Srila Prabhupada admonished against taking any outside instructions.

From Srila Prabhupada’s Books, letters, morning walks and classes does Prabhupada instruct us, he is the final word on ALL past Acharays, only from Prabhupada we learn everything they preach and all our comments, essays and preaching must be based on Srila Prabhupada’s teachings above all else. Even in understanding Vedic Cosmology, Prabhupada found many Vedic Scholar’s translations totally useless so what ever we find must be in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, he is giving ‘Sastra’ he learnt from his Guru, he is a true honest selfless ‘Sadhu’ and he is a bonafide ‘Guru’ who has done more to preach Krishna Consciousness than all previous Acharays combined.

Srila Prabhupada’s teachings ARE the combination of all the Acharays and his quotes, comments and mention of them is all we need to know. There is a life time just reading Prabhupada’s Books and hearing or reading all his lectures and morning walks, there is no need to associate with other sangas other than ISKCON

Letter 73-12-25: Gurukrpa, Yasodanandana:

“Whatever is to be learned of the teachings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be learned from our books. There is no need whatsoever for any outside instruction”

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 8, 2014 @ 10:33 am

A devotee asked Srila Prabhupada what he had been praying for, and Srila Prabhupada said, “I was praying that I may not fall down from devotional service.” The devotee responded, “But Srila Prabhupada, a pure devotee like you never falls down.” Srila Prabhupada replied, “A pure devotee never falls down because he is always praying that he may not fall down.”

Srila Prabhupada – “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. Milton in Paradise Lost nicely illustrates the living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Factually, without free will, there would be no need to have the mahat-tattva (material creation) however, because we DO have the free will to serve Krishna or reject Krishna, there is a need to have the mahat-tattva just like our society has the need to have a jail.

We have to realize that being marginal and jiva tattva means free will, even in Goloka. Without it how can there be genuine Love?

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura – “As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of Vaikuntha. But when his innate spiritual knowledge of the Lord is covered by forgetfulness, he is placed outside the transcendental realm.” (Caitanya Siksamrita, Sanmod-ana Bhasya-sloka-1)

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 6, 2014 @ 9:34 am

Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns. He can return?”

Srila Prabhupada – “If he likes he can return”.

Guru-kripa – “How is it that one can become envious of Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “You have got little independence, you can violate. Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel, if he likes, he can return. That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haïä bhoga väïchä kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)

Only a minority of jiva tattvas fall down from Goloka and Vaikuntha and for them the mahat-tattva is created. No jiva souls originate from an impersonal source or from some cleat sheet of consciousness as some foolishly believe and teach, nor do they originate from Maha Vishnu but rather go through Him on their way from Vaikuntha.

Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

In this way, the 25% of the Spiritual Sky that is material only caters for less than 10% of the jiva tattvas who choose to leave Vaikuntha for the mahat tattva or material creation, more than 90% of jiva tattvas always ‘choose’ to remain in Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana.

Of course the many Sakti tattvas and Vishnu tattvas expansions of Krishna never fall down and many, many individuals in Goloka Vrndavan are in that category however, we are jiva tattva and can choose to remain in Vaikuntha or leave for the mahat tattva creation of Maha Vishnu

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 6, 2014 @ 9:07 am

Sita Rama Prabhu thank you for your nice comments, this subject is very complex and has been going on for over 40 year however, as far as our origins is concerned I believe it is something we all will understand as we advance in Krishna Consciousness. There are many articles here on Dandavats where other devotees are mentioned http://www.dandavats.com/?p=9110

The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.

Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality…”

Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?”

Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”.

Srila Prabhupada – “If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.

Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture London July 30, 1971

» Posted By Gauragopala dasa On May 5, 2014 @ 3:17 pm

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