Comments Posted By Parivadi das
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Akruranatha prabhu commented on Parivadis input:
“Parivadi Prabhu’s quotation about devotees coming under Lord Caitanya’s influence and being elevated to appreciate the more intimate mood of conjugal rasa does not, it seems to me, imply that they cease being jivas and become plenary potencies of the Lord. I think if Parivadi is interpreting it that way he should reconsider that jivas *are* “shakti” (i.e., tatastha shakti), but some jivas are serving in madhurya rasa.
The use of the word “shakti” in that passage does not mean the jivas cease to be in the category of Narada Muni and enter the category of Gadadhara Pandit. Nor does the fact that Narada has an intmate form in Goloka mean that he ever becomes a plenary expansion of Radharani and ceases being a jiva.”
I agree that devotees can not change their tattva. Therefore the conclusion may be that we have to accept that there are two main categories of shakti-tattvas originally situated in the spiritual world eternally, the direct expansions of Shri Shri Radha-Krishna like the principal gopis and secondary expansions.
The members of these categories may expand to play different roles all around creation. Arjuna for instance – as Shrila Prabhupada said – is eternally with Shri Krishna in His service to the inhabitants of the material world. But there is also the origin of Arjuna, situated in the spiritual world. Shrila Prabhupada wrote to Saradia, letter from 12.12.1968:
“But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still there is only one spirit soul who is Arjuna. This spirit soul expands into many different bodies and thus you can understand that there are also incarnations of devotees as well as incarnations of Krishna. This is the power of the spirit soul, that it is unlimited. Such conception CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD WHILE ONE IS STILL IN THE CONDITIONED STATE.”
So it is above my understanding of how an expansion relates to its origin. For instance I am not aware of my nitya-siddha-body (if I have one). The only explanation I can give is that I am one and at the same time different from my nitya-siddha-body. As long as I am dreaming I have to accept my fallen nature and work on it to get back to my original status which I am not aware of now. The question is what the nitya-siddha does at the moment which is the origin of Parivadi das. I can not answer this. Maybe he is spaced out FOR A MOMENT (which seems to be eternal in the area of matter).
Sorry, but I have no hope that we will get to a conclusion which we can understand because the acaryas say that we can not understand as long as we do not realize it by our experience. Such realizations can not be expressed in words exactly but only in terms of parables. Such parables explained from different angles may seem to be contradictory to the eye of a nonrealized person, and one should not quarrel about this too long. We have to be patient. But I want not to say that it is all in all useless to discuss such things, but it should not take too much energy so that we stay in balance and keep up with our spiritual duties.
From the letter Shrila Prabhupada wrote to Saradia I conclude that in general the understanding what a soul is, is very poor. At least I do not know what a soul is besides that the soul is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. I do not know how a soul is original situated in the spiritual energy, nor do I know how the soul expands into different entities nor do I know how these manifestations relate to each other. For instance if Narada Muni meets with Shrivasa Thakur, what is it all about: Does he meet himself? This seems to be possible. Does one realize if one meets another entity which is actually a manifestation of the same soul?
I better should meditate on the holy name now.
» Posted By Parivadi das On Oct 31, 2007 @ 10:45 pm
Regarding the developement of a devotee we find the following comment of Shrila Prabhupada (CC Adi-lila 7.17):
In connection with verses 16 and 17, Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Swami Prabhupada explains in his Anubhasya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Shri Caitanya Mahäprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love. … By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahäprabhu, one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord’s pastimes in Vrindavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvämés, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krishna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee’s promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krishna in an intimate relationship with Shri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. …”
In Vers 15 of Chapter 7 it is described that shakti-tattva and jiva-tattva are a fourth principle besides the three prabhus. I must agree that I have no glimpse of understanding why the categories leaded by gadadhara prabhu and Shrivasa Thakura are put together as a fourth principle. I always had the understanding that Shri Gadadhara Pandit represents the tattva of internal energies of the Lord, headed by Shrimati Radharani, whereas Shri Shrivasa Thakura represents the pure devotees in the jiva-tattva-category. In the comment to 7.14 Shrila Prabhupada comments that the “the jiva-tattva servitor, the spiritual master, is actually the servitor god.” In Vers 4, Chapter 7, the category of Shri Shrivas Thakur is called marginal potency but is taken also as shakti of the Lord. So both, the internal and the marginal potency, are taken as shaktis.
From this it seems to me that the pure devotee in the marginal position is an expansion of a devotee in the internal position. HH Tamal Krishna Gosvami explained that for instance Narada Muni has also a form in the inner circle of Shri Krishnas pasttimes in Goloka; means that Narada Muni is a pure devotee, acting as an expansion in the marginal position (category of Shri Shrivasa Thakura).
Shrila Prabhupada writes in a letter to Saradia (12.12.1968):
“My dear Saradia,
Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your recent letter and I have noted the contents with pleasure. Your kind thoughts which you expressed are very nice and encouraging to me. Also you have asked some intelligent questions and I am answering them here.
You have asked how Krishna is with the spirit soul in the spiritual world and the answer is that Krishna is the heart of the spirit soul, or spiritual body, So Krishna is never apart from us. Either He remains in the heart of the material body, or He remains in the heart of the spiritual body. This is Krishna’s Causeless mercy to all of His beloved children, or living entities.
To answer your second question, you should know that Arjuna and Kunti Devi are not in Krishna Loka. They are eternally associated with Krishna only in the material world. Just like Krishna is always in the spiritual world, so similarly He is always in the material world, Krishna also has eternal associates, such as Arjuna and Kunti Devi. There is a difference between the body and the soul of Arjuna and Kunti Devi. But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still THERE IS ONLY ONE SPIRIT SOUL WHO IS ARJUNA. THIS SPIRIT SOUL EXPANDS INTO MANY DIFFERENT BODIES AND THUS YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE ALSO INCARNATIONS OF DEVOTEES AS WELL AS INCARNATIONS OF KRISHNA. THIS IS THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT SOUL, THAT IT IS UNLIMITED. THIS CONCEPTION CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD WHILE ONE IS STILL IN THE CONDITIONED STATE.
Your ever well-wisher
A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
From this I conclude that we can not restrict our conceptions on the point that a spiritual soul has only one manifestation. A spirit soul can be at many places simultaniously. At the moment I am aware only as this conditioned Parivadi dasa who writes these text and is astonished of how much he does not know. I have to admit that most facts are unknown to me still as I am a fallen conditioned soul. Our primary duty is to work on our upliftment. But I think it is not a sin to sometimes go into these acintya-realms but it should not be our main focus. We have to be patient.
» Posted By Parivadi das On Oct 25, 2007 @ 8:11 am
So here is the quote of the Shrila Prabhupadas lecture on Shrimad Bhagavatam (1.15.36) given in Los Angeles on 14.12.73:
“So now the conclusion is that because we are marginal, in between the spiritual nature and the material nature, although we are spiritual, although our real nature is na jayate na mrityate, we never take birth, never die, but on account of our contact with material nature, we are getting this material body and the body is changing. … Body is changing. And that we have taken as our nature, birth and death. That is not our nature. We are spirit soul. WE ARE PUT INTO MARGINAL because … Just like the margin is explained: tatastha. That is … We have translated into “marginal”. Just like we go on the Pacific beach. Some day we find the water is covering the beach, and some day we see it is open. There is no water. So that is called marginal. Marginal. Sometimes it is covered by water; sometimes there is no water. Similarly, we, being marginal potency, we are sometimes influenced by this material nature, not always. Because at the present moment for sometimes we are under the material nature, now, if we try, then we can get out of this covering of material nature and come to the spiritual nature. That is Krishna Consciousness Movement. Krishna Consciousness Movement means don’t remain in the marginal position. Come in the land so there will be no disturbance by the water. This is the position. If you remain on the marginal position, then sometimes you will be covered by the water and sometimes it will be dry. BUT IF YOU LITTLE COME FORWARD THIS SIDE, LAND SIDE, THE OCEAN HAS NO POWER TO TOUCH YOU. But Krishna is not like that, and that is described here. Although Krishna left this world, that does not mean that He left this world as we leave. Our leaving this world means we are leaving this material world and accepting another body. Therefore, at the present moment WE ARE NOT IN OUR OWN BODY …”
My understanding is therefore that we have lost our nitya-siddha-body to dream in the tatastha-land, in a marginal position, which we should leave to go back to our eternal position in our nitya-siddha-body.
So our nitya-siddha-body exists simalteniously with our tatastha-expansion (dreamlike state).
» Posted By Parivadi das On Oct 25, 2007 @ 7:25 am
With interest I read these texts. By the way Shrila Prabhupada advises us “to leave the marginal position” (Lecture SB 1.15.36, 14.12.73, Los Angeles). Shrila Prabhupada explains in this lecture that we have only to move a little bit from the boarder line in direction to the spiritual world to get out of the marginal position.
This supports the argument that the marginal position of the living entity is really not an etarnal state but only as long as one is not under the shelter of the spiritual energy. I support therefore the conclusion that the eternal associates of Krishna (nitya-siddhas) are not marginal. They are eternally liberated, without exceptions. The falldown creates a parallel existence (like a dream, which is real) and this parallel existence is called marginal. So the fallen living being is simultanious one and different from the nitya-siddha-source.
For practical reasons – as was explained here already – it is most important to concentrate on our business to get out of the marginal position by bhakti-yoga to go back to godhead.
In a comment in Chaitanya Charitamrita – which I will deliver tomorrow – Shrila Prabhupada cites a comment of Shrila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur, where it is said that even a pure devotee in the category of jiva-tattva can progress to higher positions!!!! Sorry it is to late now. I will bring the quote tomorrow! For sure!
All in all it seems to me that eternal associates of Shri Krishna in the spiritual world can not be called jivas in a marginal position.
» Posted By Parivadi das On Oct 24, 2007 @ 9:44 pm
Dear Yugala Kishor prabhu, pamho, agtSP!
please allow me to give some more input on your comments to my comment:
My Comments on Post No. 14 from Parivadi devi
“And at least one well-known ex-sannyasi was spoiled away while involving in money-speculation in a big style for the sake of yukta-vairagya for our ISKCON.”
I don’t know what you mean by money-speculation. We are talking about economics and how it can be utilized in spreading KC. Moreover, if an ex-sannyasi failed to understand how economics work, that doesn’t mean we all failed or that we are doomed to fail.
additional comment from Parivadi das:
I agree with you that it is proper to utilize economics in spreading KC. The point with money-speculation I ment like this: Is it not a fact that some methods of speculating with changes of course of share-certificates etc. are the same as gambling? Is it sinful or not? This is my simple question? Is it proper for initiated devotees to engage in such methods or not? Where is the boarderline?
“Therefore we have to preach accordingly and not to imitate kali-methods in the name of yukta-vairagya.”
We should be interested in using the assets of the world to spread KC, as Srila Prabhupada did it, as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did it, and as Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura did it. And knowledge of economics is an asset that we, in ISKCON, have long neglected.
additional comment by Parivadi das:
yes, we should be expert economists, no question. But at the same time we have to stick to the principles of spiritual life.
In addition I want to mention, that the economic system of these days puts a lot of pressure to people at large. I hope that you agree that the whole aspect of the third world has a lot to do with the greed of people who can not get enough by manipulating courses and economic systems. My wife was in the hospital for the last two weeks. We are not rich and my wife has only a basic health-insurance. The style of how she was treated was more than abormenable. The doctors have no time. The nurses have no time for normal people. These mass-people are treated like animals nowadays even in countries like germany. The german state – like most of other states – has to pay big interest-rates to private people and institutions like Fed etc. You know the whole story yourself. It is not proper to point out that this is all the law of karma. Of course it is but at the same time ISKCON has to also take side and point out how people are fooled and harmed by this system – like Shrila Prabhupada did. As a spiritual society we have to point out these demoniac structures and help to overcome them especially by spreading Krishna Consciousness and suppurting varnasrama-tendencies. A devotee does not hate the sinner but the sin. Diplomacy in preaching for sure is sometimes necessary for the sake of the whole outcome but it should not go so far as to get lost in it.
» Posted By Parivadi das On Feb 23, 2007 @ 7:46 pm
What I miss in the discussion so far – as often nowadays in discussions – is PARALLEL THINKING. It is obvious that kali-yuga-tendencies are especially there, where there is a lot of money accumulated. At the same time it is right, that even members of this world-elite may get supporters of ISKCON. These things are true parallel. A quarrel is not necessary. An interesting question in this regard is, how far ISKCON-authorities should involve in money-speculation. Our fourth regulative principle does forbid this regarding initiated members of ISKCON. Money-speculation is nothing else than gambling! And at least one well-known ex-sannyasi was spoiled away while involving in money-speculation in a big style for the sake of yukta-vairagya for our ISKCON. It seems to me therefore that it is better for initiated members not to use methods of Rothschild & co directly; better to convince them to help us than to imitate their behaviour!!!
As I understood Nandanandana prabhu is that he wants only to make us sensitive of the dangers of progressive kali-yuga which were predicted like he explained. Of course he could done so in a more simple way to prevent bewildering. But everybody in this world knows:
Money-Barons reign the world nowadays and that is not the way it should be.
Therefore we have to preach accordingly and not to imitate kali-methods in the name of yukta-vairagya. But – as mentioned above – at the same time these influencuel people can help ISKCON to change history!
» Posted By Parivadi das On Feb 5, 2007 @ 8:57 pm
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From my viewpoint we should seperate the aspect of forgiveness from the managerial aspects. Even if we forgive we should manage our society in a way that we can move on undisturbed. If a person has done horrible things by misusing his authority it is common sense that he is replaced. The replacement does not mean that he can not get the mercy. Like every other devotee he has his individual relationship with the Lord which can not be judged by others. Therefore I can not understand why forgiveness has to be combined with reinstalling the person. It makes no sense. There are so many nice devotees who hold no post for the whole life. They give inspiration also. It would create so much respect (for Danudhara Swami and ISKCON if Danudhara Swami would himself do what is necessary. And it will certainly cause more and more damage to ISKCON if we support the impression that we have more compassion with the abuser than with the victims!
your unsignificant servant
» Posted By Parivadi das On Sep 8, 2006 @ 7:49 pm
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