Comments Posted By Puskaraksa das
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Srila Prabhupada - Lecture on BG 13.3 — Hyderabad, April 19, 1974:
“So this is going on. What you do not know exactly‚ÄĒsimply theoretically you put some theories and speculate‚ÄĒthat is not knowledge.
But our process, we are getting knowledge from the perfect personality. That is Vedic system. You acquire knowledge from a person who is perfect in knowledge.
Perfect in knowledge and imperfect in knowledge.
So long we are imperfect, we cannot give perfect knowledge.
Therefore we must find out knowledge from the perfect person. That is Vedic injunction. Tad-vij√ĪńĀnńĀrthaŠĻĀ sa gurum eva abhigacchet (MU 1.2.12).
Guru. Guru means one who has got perfect knowledge.
One who hasn’t got perfect knowledge, he cannot become guru. How he can? Guru means heavy. So if I am light and I take knowledge from another light person, then what is the use of such knowledge?”
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 01.12.2013 @ 18:04
Dear Sankarsana Prabhu
I think in this one quote here below, you can find the answer to your two questions:
May 28, 1977 ISKCON Governing Board Commission (GBC) meeting.
Srila Prabhupada: “In my presence, one should not become guru!
So on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana, be actually guru, but by my order.”
1) “In my presence, one should not become guru!
Then, how can one seriously think that Srila Prabhupada - being a tri-kala-jna nitya-siddha - had made a plan to leave the planet by 1975, so that all his disciples could take up his position, as per this letter dated 3rd Dec, 1968, addressed to his ambitious disciple Hamsadutta das‚Ä¶?
‚ÄúI want that all of my spiritual sons and daughters will inherit this title of Bhaktivedanta” (and not Bhakti-satri, by the way), “so that the family transcendental diploma will continue through the generations. Those possessing the title of Bhaktivedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975 all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.‚ÄĚ
Just the fact that Srila Prabhupada used the word “maybe” should give us a hint that Srila Prabhupada was aiming at having at least 6 years of peace, in regards to this desire to become guru in some (if not many) of his disciples…!
Beyond, he encouraged everyone to study, so that at least they may come closer to knowing (jnana) and then understanding and even further, realizing (vijnana) our Vaishnava siddantha.
2) So, on my behalf, on my order… Amara ajnaya guru hana, be actually guru, but by my order.”
What would make one think that he or she is guru‚Ä¶just because one acting as a senior, passes on some knowledge to a junior‚Ä¶?
As it is, neither is a self-appointed guru, bona fide, nor is the naive faith or worship of a neophyte what will intronize one into the position of guru‚Ä¶!
Srila Prabhupada - 1976: “I am practically seeing that as soon as they, our students, begin to learn a little Sanskrit, they immediately feel they have become more than their guru.”
Morning Walk — November 11, 1975, Bombay:
Prabhupada: “Parampara. Guru is also not authority by himself. He is authority by his guru, parampara. If he is coming in the parampara system, then he is guru. Otherwise he’s not guru.”
SP Vyasa puja Lecture, Hamburg 1969:
“A person who is authorized to deliver people from that material pangs, he is called spiritual master.”
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 01.12.2013 @ 01:17
On one hand, there may be some remaining identification to the body and some attachement to the gender, be it one’s own or the opposite, for a number of reasons, as per our material conditioning‚Ä¶
So, the debate is meant not to be neutral and objective, unless one is completely transcendental to these temporary designations‚Ä¶
On the other hand, there are social rules and regulations, social order, laws of nature and what we call varnasrama and even daivi-varnasrama‚Ä¶
So, one has to also take into consideration these parameters not to disturb the good functioning of society‚Ä¶
Beyond, from a spiritual point of view, only Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga can determine whoever is up to the level to act as “Guru”, be it as diksa or as a siksa “Guru”.
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja used to say: “Krishna means Krishna and Guru means Guru”!
So, there is no question to water down the philosophy for whoever is sincere and sincerely wants to adhere to our Vaishnava siddantha.
“Lord KŠĻõŠĻ£ŠĻáa’s ńĀveŇõa forms are also explained in the Laghu-bhńĀgavatńĀmŠĻõta (PŇęrva 18):
j√ĪńĀna-Ňõakty-ńĀdi-kalayńĀ yatrńĀviŠĻ£ŠĻ≠o janńĀrdanaŠł•
ta ńĀveŇõńĀ nigadyante jńęvńĀ eva mahattamńĀŠł•
“A living entity who is specifically empowered by the Lord with knowledge or strength is technically called ńĀveŇõa-rŇępa.” As stated in the Caitanya-caritńĀmŠĻõta (CC Antya 7.11), kŠĻõŠĻ£ŠĻáa-Ňõakti vinńĀ nahe tńĀra pravartana: Unless a devotee is specifically empowered by the Lord, he cannot preach the holy name of the Lord all over the world. This is an explanation of the word ńĀveŇõa-rŇępa.” (C.c. Madhya 20.165 - Purport)
So, ‚ÄĚSince we cannot see the Supersoul, He appears as a liberated devotee.‚ÄĚ (C.c. Adi 1.58)
‚ÄúThe Lord gives His pure devotee the power to distribute His own mercy (sva-kripa-sakti) as he likes.‚ÄĚ (Madhurya Kadambini, Ch1)
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear:
‚ÄúGenerally a guru‚Äôs symptom is that he‚Äôs a perfect devotee, that‚Äôs all.‚ÄĚ (Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers).
Similarly, “Jahnava devi” (Revati) “was Nityananda‚Äôs wife. She became.” “IF SHE (a woman) IS ABLE TO GO TO THE HIGHEST PERFECTION OF LIFE, why it is not possible to become guru?” - “But, not so many.”
As it is,
Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.
“When I order, “You become guru,” he becomes regular guru. That’s all. He becomes disciple of my disciple.” (Srila Prabhupada’s final order)
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 29.11.2013 @ 00:25
The diksa guru is a manifestation of Madana-mohana in the sense that he bestows sambandha in the form of diksa, over which the deity of Sri Madana-mohana presides.
The siksa guru is a manifestation of Govinda Deva, the presiding deity of abhidheya.
The diksa-guru establishes our sambandha, our relationship with Krishna.
The siksa-guru teaches us abhidheya, or how to act within that relationship.
The diksa-guru establishes our feet in the land of Vrindavana.
The siksa-guru teaches us how to move in the land of Vrindavana.
The classic examples of these two manifestations of guru in our tradition are Sri Sanatana Goswami and Srila Rupa Goswami.
Sanatana Goswami has written Brhat-bhagavatamrta, which orients us towards the spiritual realm, in consideration with our present position.
Rupa Goswami has written Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, which delineates the different aspects of bhakti, or that activity that naturally follows from the sambandha-jnana.
So, I do not see how the relationship with the bona fide diksa-guru would be temporary or limited to the service of his vapuh‚Ä¶?
It seems that the confusion may arise from the contemporary example of so-called diksa-gurus who fall down, leaving the disciple with the misconception, used as a consolation, that this relationship was not so important and temporary anyway‚Ä¶
However, we have to understand, as Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja explained, according to our Vaishnava siddantha, that if the diksa-guru falls down, all the initiations are null and invalid. So, the disciples of that fallen would-be guru (since a sat guru never falls) have to receive real initiation from a valid via media, who will genuinely connect the disciple with Krishna and establish a true sambandha in between the jiva and the Supreme Personality of Godhead‚Ä¶
In that regard, Srila Prabhupada explains that the siksa-guru generally becomes the diksa-guru, which ought to prevent one from being disappointed, as well as from minimizing the position of the diksa-guru!
Besides, one generally tends to misunderstand the necessity of receiving both general siksa from Sastras and our previous acaryas, as well as receiving some personalized siksa from our personal siksa guru who will guide us individually all the way up to the supreme goal of prayojana, pure love of God, Krishna prema, provided he, himself, is a pure devotee, as how otherwise, could he grant what he doesn’t have himself‚Ä¶?
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 27.11.2013 @ 08:57
Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, Bombay, April 22, 1977:‚Ä®
Prabhupada: What is the use of producing some rascal guru?‚Ä®
Tamala Krishna: Well, I have studied myself and all of your disciples, and it‚Äôs clear fact that we are all conditioned souls, so we cannot be guru. Maybe one day it may be possible‚Ä¶‚Ä®
Tamala Krishna: ‚Ä¶but not now.‚Ä®
Prabhupada: Yes. I shall produce some gurus. I shall say who is guru, ‚ÄėNow you become acharya. You become authorized.‚Äô I am waiting for that. You become, all, acharya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete.‚Ä®
Tamala Krishna: The process of purification must be there.‚Ä®
Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana. ‚ÄúYou become guru.‚ÄĚ (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower.‚Ä®
Tamala Krishna: Not rubber stamp.‚Ä®
Prabhupada: Then you‚Äôll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru, and a small temple and ‚Äúguru.‚ÄĚ What kind of guru?‚ÄĚ
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 25.11.2013 @ 00:48
Prof. O’Connell: “Is it possible, Swamiji, for a woman to be a guru in the line of disciplic succession”?
Prabhupada: “Yes. Jahnava devi was ‚Äď Nityananda’s wife. She became. If she is able to go to the highest perfection of life, why it is not possible to become guru? But, not so many.
Actually one who has attained the perfection, she can become guru. But man or woman, unless one has attained the perfection…. Yei Krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya [Cc. Madhya 8.128].
The qualification of guru is that he must be fully cognizant of the science of Krsna. Then he or she can become guru. Yei Krsna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya.
In our material world, is it any prohibition that woman cannot become professor? If she is qualified, she can become professor. What is the wrong there? She must be qualified. That is the position.
So similarly, if the woman understands Krsna consciousness perfectly, she can become guru.
(Interview with Professors O’Connell)
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 25.11.2013 @ 00:04
Woman reporter: Women have been leaders.
Prabhupada: They were not selected. The leader‚Äďformerly it was monarchy‚Äďthe monarchs were selected by the advisory board of the first-class men. So they never selected any woman to become the leader of the society.
Woman reporter: What about women who are elected by the people?
Prabhupada: Well, people election‚Ä¶ Just like you elected Nixon and then you wanted him to come down. So this kind of election has no value. Sometimes you elect and sometimes you pull down. So what is the value of this election?
Woman reporter: So a leader should not be elected.
Prabhupada: Elected, but not by this general public. They have no intelligence. They sometimes elect a wrong man, and again they try to drag him down. So what is the use of such election? Because that election is not sober, not mature. If the election was mature and sober, then there was no need of dragging him down again…
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 24.11.2013 @ 23:34
Television Interview‚Ä® of Srila Prabhupada on July 9, 1975, Chicago
Woman reporter: But you say women are subordinate to men.
Prabhupada: Yes, that is also natural. Because when the husband and wife are there or the father and daughter is there, so the daughter is subordinate to the father and the wife is subordinate to the husband.
Woman reporter: What happens when women are not subordinate to men?
Prabhupada: Then there is disruption. There is disruption, social disruption. If the woman does not become subordinate to man, then there is social disruption. Therefore, in the western countries there are so many divorce cases because the woman does not agree to become subordinate to man. That is the cause.
Woman reporter: What advice do you have to women who do not want to be subordinate to men?
Prabhupada: It is not my advice, but it is the advice of the Vedic knowledge that woman should be chaste and faithful to man.
Woman reporter: What should we do in the United States? We‚Äôre trying to make women equal with men.
Prabhupada: I am not trying. You are already not equal with the man because in so many respects, your functions are different and man‚Äôs functions are different. Why do you say artificially they are equal? As I told you that the husband and wife‚Äďthe wife has to become pregnant, not the husband. How you can change this, both the husband and wife will be pregnant? Is it possible? Is it possible?
Prabhupada: Yes, that is a fact. In the history there is no woman who is a big philosopher, a big mathematician, big scientist, big educationist. We don‚Äôt find. They were all men.
Woman reporter: What about women who are leaders of countries such as your own country?
Prabhupada: Well, according to Vedic conception woman is never offered leadership. But experience has shown that woman‚Äôs leadership has not been successful.
Woman reporter: Do you think Mrs. Gandhi‚Äôs leadership has not been successful?
Prabhupada: Well, there is already trouble. There are many big, big men, they do not agree with her and she has taken emergency steps. So on the whole, the country is in trouble.
Woman reporter: What about Mrs. Meir, president of Israel?
Prabhupada: I do not say of any particular woman, but according to Vedic civilization, we have never seen in the history that woman has become a leader.
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 24.11.2013 @ 23:32
On Post 14, Raja Gopal das, you deny Srila Prabhupada’s crucial point, i.e.:
‚ÄĘ (SP lecture London Aug 3, 1973)‚Ä® ‚Ä¶ ‚ÄúOn My order.‚ÄĚ That is the crucial point. One does not become spiritual master by his own whims. That is not spiritual master. He must be ordered by superior authority. Then he‚Äôs spiritual master. Just like in our case. Our superior authority, our spiritual master, he ordered me‚Ä¶ The only qualification is that I have tried to execute the order of superior authority. That‚Äôs all. This is the secret of success.
When Vraja Vilasa Prabhu makes that statement: ‚ÄúNo order from Prabhupada means you‚Äôre not authorized. Doesn‚Äôt matter whether you‚Äôre man or woman.‚ÄĚ, he is obviously addressing direct disciples of Srila Prabhupada.
In the case of grand-disciples of Srila Prabhupada, before they can become guru, first of all, according to our Vaishnava etiquette, they ought not give any initiation, while their gurudeva is still present in his body and second of all, they must receive the instruction to become guru in our line of diciplic succession from their own guru, provided their own guru is bona fide, that is to say that he must have received the same instruction to become guru from Srila Prabhupada himself, be it before or after November 14, 1977.
‚ÄĘ (NOD Lectures Vrndavan, India 10/31/72)
He is self-made guru. Therefore he‚Äôs not guru. Self-made guru cannot be guru. HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE BONA FIDE GURU. Then he‚Äôs guru. BONA FIDE GURU MEANS HE MUST BE AUTHORIZED BY THE superior GURU‚Ä¶. HE MUST RECEIVE THE ORDER FROM THE SUPERIOR. AND THE SUPERIOR MUST BE BONA FIDE. THEN HE‚ÄôS BONA FIDE, NOT SELF-MADE.
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 24.11.2013 @ 16:24
Raja Gopal das, in Post 11, should we understand that you are doubting Srila Prabhupada’s very own words, in regards to his having been order by his guru to become guru, as per our process of Parampara‚Ä¶?
Rather, you think that it is a conditioned soul in the shape of a so-called aspiring disciple, be it a minifestation of Maya Devi, who is supposed to determine who is fit to be guru and who is not‚Ä¶!
It is not a prospective fan or groupie in the worst case, or even a sincere aspiring disciple who establishes the disciple in the position of guru‚Ä¶ It is his own guru !
He has to be nominated by a superior authority, not by an inferior. It is not an ascending process; it is a descending process, through a line of authority, called Parampara, originating in Krishna Himself and not, to the contrary, a line of so-called gurus voted in by other conditioned souls‚Ä¶!
Comment Posted By Puskaraksa das On 24.11.2013 @ 15:41