Comments Posted By Sita Rama 108
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You write, “I find many, many husbands don’t know what it means to be a good husband and I rarely find unhappy women who have really good husbands.”
At the risk of being presumptuous, I would like to suggest that if you could create specific definitions, and thus operationalize the terms, good husband, unhappy wife etc. And keep record of the number of these along with whether it is the man or the woman who want the divorce, etc, etc. And if you had a sufficient size and variety of samples. You could give statistically significant facts on these topics rather than just your general observations.
I accept your observations because I already agree with you. But statistical data might change the mind of someone who tends to see things differently.
Sita Rama das
You probably do not remember me but I remember you from when I was at the San Diego Temple in the late 80’s early 90’s
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Sep 10, 2014 @ 4:24 pm
My last paste is one where we see Srila Prabhupada give instructions for both husband and wife.
Srila Prabhupada to Mother Sudevi september 15 1972
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated September 8, 1972, and have noted the contents therein. Marriage between husband and wife means that the husband must forever be responsible for the wife’s well-being and protection in all cases. That does not mean that now there is agreement between us, therefore I am responsible, but as soon as there is some disagreement then I immediately flee the scene and become so-called renounced. Whether your husband likes to take responsibility as your spiritual guide or not, that does not matter. He must do it. It is his duty because he has taken you as his wife. Therefore he must take full responsibility for you the rest of his life. And you also must agree to serve him under all circumstances and assist him in every way so that he may make advancement in Krsna Consciousness. By his making advancement in Krsna Consciousness, automatically the wife will make advancement in the husband’s footsteps. But if you do not assist him and be very obedient to his welfare, then he may become disgusted and go away. So there must be mutual responsibility by both parties, and now that you are married couple there is no question of your separation, but YOU MUST BOTH TRY VERY HARD TO SERVE KRSNA TOGETHER IN HARMONY( capitals added).
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Sep 4, 2014 @ 6:40 pm
In comment 3 you claim that it is a religious principal for a man to immediately leave his wife if she is quarrelsome. Says WHO!
Srila Prabhupada said numerous times that at present irresponsible people marry due to lust only; therefore when there is a little difficulty they divorce. This is hippy philosophy not a religious principal.
Srila Prabhupada letter to Mother Laksmimoni 07/10/1969
Any disagreement between husband and wife is not taken very seriously, as much as a disagreement between children is not taken very seriously. This is because the basic principle of married life in Krishna Consciousness is not whimsical lusts, but it is the eternal principle of rendering devotional service to Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada to director of social welfare, 5/ 21/1975
The husband and wife’s quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Ajä yuddhe (More quote by Cäëakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say “Hut!” they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, “Yes, come to the court.” This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law.
Srila Prabhupada to Madhukara 01/4/1973
They simply have some sex desire, get themselves married, and when the mater does not fulfill their expectations, immediately there is separation—these things are just like material activities, prostitution. The wife is left without husband, and sometimes there is child to be raised, in so many ways the proposition that you, and some others also, are making becomes distasteful. We cannot expect that our temples will become places of shelter for so many widows and rejected wives, that will be a great burden and we shall become the laughingstock in the society.
Because the real fact is that if there is any difficulty with others, that is my lack of Krsna consciousness, not theirs. Is this clear?
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Sep 4, 2014 @ 6:35 pm
Someone who expects devotees to work in unhealthy, unsafe, conditions and chastises someone in front of a group is not trainable. That such individuals are in lower management positions indicates too few devotees. This suggests that those in higher management may benefit from learning how to encourage commitment to ISKCON. This can only be effective to the degree that the leaders are dedicated to Srila Prabhupada.
I suggest a management style that has been shown effective through huge amounts of empirical research, namely “Transformational Leadership”( TL). One university study, cites three meta analysis studies ( a study of numerous studies combined by statistical analysis) which found TL is positively related to satisfaction, performance, and commitment to an organization. It cites numerous other studies showing connections between TL and a host of outcomes that are clearly highly desirable for ISKCON. .Another university study found a positive correlation between transformational leaders and, “group cohesiveness”, defined as, “… the degree to which members are attracted to each other and are motivated to stay in the group.”.
If devotees were all satisfied, motivated to commit themselves and perform well, and were attracted to others in our group, we would have enough devotees find some qualified for lower management responsibilities.
Charisma is a quality of one with TL ability. Now, to apply this in ISKCON we have to understand that Srila Prabhupada is the real leader. Charismatic gurus may inspire some growth spurts but that will not result in sustained cohesiveness/ loyalty to ISKCON, if these gurus do not instill their followers with the spirit of being servants of Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON is set up in such a way that those who are not totally dedicated to Srila Prabhupada are destined to leave it at some point. So a real leader, professionally trained or not, is one who puts, Srila Prabhupada (not his own charisma) in the center and inspires others to do the same.
I was initiated in 1980 by a, “Zonal Acharya”, who fell in 1986. To his credit, I always felt a personal connection to Srila Prabhupada so I never left ISKCON as a result t of his fall. I feel grateful for the chance to be connected to ISKCON, under the ultimate management of the GBC,and be able to show some gratitude to Srila Prabhupada by serving his movement.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Sep 4, 2014 @ 5:53 am
Kesava Krishna Prabhu,
This is an interesting mediation on Krishna in the form of Time.
You mention,”scientists and physicists who assume that an entire universe came from an infinitely dense nothingness or singularity”
It seems this also describes the theoretical state called,” absolute zero”( by physicists) where matter has no movement and is thus minutely compacted and undifferentiated. This always sounded to me like the pradhana- the material energy before the jivas are injected into it. Do you know if there is any scriptural reference or intelligent justification for my speculation?
Ys, Sita Rama das
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Aug 3, 2014 @ 2:55 am
Kesava Krishna Prabhu
Both sides have been addressed see comments 185, 186, 188, Resting the Jiva fall-no Fall case.
Srila Prabhupada explains we never fall because our conditioned life is simply a dream. When we awake from the dream we are in Vaikuntha. So the answer is yes, we never fall and yes, we were in Vaikuntha before becoming conditioned ( jiv jago). That is seeing both sides.
It is not practical to qualify every statement and deny conventional speech. Srila Prabhupada and devotees usually use the word, fallen, fell, etc, to indicate the conditioned state of forgetting Krishna.We are supposed to know that anything that sounds like we have developed material qualities is just a manner of speaking. There SHOULD be no need to qualify that this is not contradicting the first lesson-that the soul is always pure, it cannot develop any material quality, it just contacts matter the way air contacts aromas. When the air contacts aromas it’s elemental structure does not change; however its un- aromatic nature is not manifest. We never REALLY fall.
It is easy to explain how we can say we are fallen when in reality no one can ever fall. That is the fall position. It is not taking one side and denying another. Rather it is using a little intelligence to understand that Srila Prabhupada does not contradict himself.
What, exactly, is the problem you see with this understanding?
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jul 8, 2014 @ 6:20 pm
Kesava Krsna Dasa
You say, ” It is fairly unusual for devotees to accommodate possible alternative viewpoints other than their own. This can be unreasonable and imbalanced”.
I am not sure how unusual it is for devotees to accommodate alternative viewpoints. But the main problem I have with your article is that I only see one side presented;that we should accommodate alternative views. The fact is, sometimes it is appropriate to accommodate alternative views and sometimes it is not.
Of course dialogue is more desirable than competitive debate. Dialogue means both sides accept the view of the other; this results in a more complete understanding.
But dialogue is not always possible, and competitive debate is also useful if it is done in a rational manner. If someone can answer objections, to their view in a rational way, their position becomes more valid and intellectually justifiable.
I find that, usually, while engaged in competitive debate devotees are guilty of some logical fallacies, but overall the arguments are on a rational basis. We should not try to discourage competitive debate simple because of a few imperfections.
To say there is something wrong, in principal, with rejecting a certain viewpoint is, in itself, a fallacious argument. The onus is on the debater to show why the alternative view should be accepted or at least acknowledged.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jul 4, 2014 @ 1:24 pm
You write, “So one does not fall from perfection. One falls within perfection, to another part of the complete perfect whole- the prison house of Durga mata.”
This is an interesting point. To put it in the analogy of the prison house; the prison house, itself, is not criminal; it is an extension of the law maker/ head of state. It is only the prisoners within that are criminal.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 26, 2014 @ 2:04 am
Mother Vishaka Priya,
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not sure what part of my, “refutation” of Niscala’s position you are in disagreement with; however, there is only one point that I need to make clear.
You conclude with:
So I think that the first thing Srila Prabhupada needed to teach us was that we were eternal souls, not just in the future but in the past as well
My point is:
I, in no way, disagree with the assertion that( as the western world is largely ignorant of the fact) the first thing Srila Prabhupada had to teach us was the real meaning of eternity.
This is always the first lesson for those who are ignorant of this fact. This is shown by the perfect example of the original Guru, namely Krishna. After Krishna called Arjuna , “indirectly, a fool”,( purport to BG. 2.11) the first point was:
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (BG 2.12).
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 5, 2014 @ 3:18 am
Part 2 of 2.
And even then we would have to question ourselves as to whether it is our duty to make such a judgment. If it is our duty to judge and we determine an act is due to weakness, this might mitigate, to some degree, the level of blameworthiness of a particular transgression. Therefore this knowledge of, “womanly weakness” is needed to avoid judging a woman too harshly.
Although it may be off the topic, I think it is interesting that, in a verse shortly after the one cited above, Srila Prabhupada again brings up the topic of gender temperaments.
“The mother and sisters of Saté could not follow the others, who did not receive Saté very well. Due to natural affection, they immediately embraced her with tears in their eyes and with loving feelings. This shows that women as a class are very softhearted; their natural affection and love cannot be checked by artificial means. Although the men present were very learned brähmaëas and demigods, they were afraid of their superior, Dakña, and because they knew that their welcoming Saté would displease him, although in their minds they wanted to receive her, they could not do so. Women are naturally softhearted, but men are sometimes very hardhearted.(SB 4,4,7).”
So in this case, the womanly nature gave Sati’s mother and sister the strength to do the right thing. In this case it was right for a wife( Sati’s mother) to disobey the tacit orders of her great husband, Daksa. In this case the general nature of men caused them to be weak; they failed to act properly. Out of fear of Daksa they repressed their feeling and due to hard heartedness they did not give proper respect to a great person.
If we accept Srila Prabhpada cannot deny that, for the most part, the tendencies are consistent with the gender of the individual; but no one says this is 100% Sometimes a most manly man can exhibit excessive attachment for family members(womanly weakness) For example of Arjuna, was crying on the battlefield due to this sentiment. And we all know the anecdote of the Queen properly acting in a hardhearted way by forbidding the King to enter the palace when a war was taking place. So when Srila Prabhupada says generally I accept it very literally. You cannot dissolve it and say there is no general distinction between the temperaments of each. And you cannot say that it is impossible. or even rare for one gender to exhibit tendencies usually associated with the opposite gender.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 5, 2014 @ 5:05 pm
Part 1 of 2.
I do not intend to disagree with either Bhaktivikasa Maharaja or Mahatma Prabhu who are both very senior, and experienced Srila Prabhupada disciples. But, for a long time, I have had some thoughts about SrilaPrabhupada’s statements in the verse alluded to and I would like to reveal them here.
Thereafter Saté left her husband, Lord Çiva, who had given her half his body due to affection. Breathing very heavily because of anger and bereavement, she went to the house of her father. This less intelligent act was due to her being a weak woman.
According to the Vedic conception of family life, the husband gives half his body to his wife, and the wife gives half of her body to her husband. In other words, a husband without a wife or a wife without a husband is incomplete. Vedic marital relationship existed between Lord Çiva and Saté, but sometimes, due to weakness, a woman becomes very much attracted by the members of her father’s house, and this happened to Saté. In this verse it is specifically mentioned that she wanted to leave such a great husband as Çiva because of her womanly weakness. In other words, womanly weakness exists even in the relationship between husband and wife. Generally, separation between husband and wife is due to womanly behavior; divorce takes place due to womanly weakness. The best course for a woman is to abide by the orders of her husband. That makes family life very peaceful. Sometimes there may be misunderstandings between husband and wife, as found even in such an elevated family relationship as that of Saté and Lord Çiva, but a wife should not leave her husband’s protection because of such a misunderstanding. If she does so, it is understood to be due to her womanly weakness.
With all due respect, I would like to point out that if one said, GENERALLY divorce takes place due to womanly WEAKNESS, this would be more accurate paraphrasing than saying, “usually a failed marriage is a woman’s fault”.
There is no need to justify this statement of the Founder Acharya. But to assure an audience that we are accepting this literally (and properly) we might add that this statement is not justification for assuming a failed marriage is the woman’s fault. Srila Prabhupada says, “generally”, this means the odds are that this is the reason, but it would be speculation to assume it is the reason in a specific case without looking at the details.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 5, 2014 @ 4:52 pm
You say Srila Prabhupada, ” never says that it actually happens to the extent that unlimited jivas have thus fallen into the material worlds”
When Srila Prabhupada speaks of the process; it is the process given for all conditioned souls. Srila Prabhupada says the process is one of REVIVAL ONLY. It follows that all the unlimited conditioned souls have been given a process for reviving their previous state in Krishna Loka which they have forgotten due to misuse of the their independence.
Hearing and Chanting about Krishna will makes us realize we have an eternal loving relationship with Krishna. Eternal means there is no circumstance in which does not exist. When we equate a material element- namely time- with our eternal soul we cannot realize that the forgotten relationship is in the realm of the eternal present.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 4, 2014 @ 4:14 am
Uttamasloka You say, ”
Sita Rama: In all of the quotes in your last two posts, Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the theoretical possibility but he never says that it actually happens to the extent that unlimited jivas have thus fallen into the material worlds.”
Please read the citation carefully and then comment. Jagadisa does not ask if the jiva CAN fall; he asks if the soul DOES fall from Krishna Loka.
Contrary to your claim, Srila Prabhupada’s response is not that it can happen but it never does. The answer is- yes he does fall from Krishna Loka- this is implicit when Srila Prabhupada explains why it happens- namely by misuse of independence which the soul ALWAYS has. Combined with the answer that the goal(Krishna Loka) is REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
I accept the answer Srila Prabhupada gives to the specific question, not one from a different context that you claim is the real answer. The answer Srila Prabhupada gives is Srila Prabhupadas answer.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 4, 2014 @ 3:32 am
I ncomment 2, regarding Jagadisa Prabhu’s, letter, you say the second part of the letter, “suggests” that we did not have an active relationship with Krishna. Material examples are meant to help us envision what is being precisely explained. The beginning of the letter is comprised of a precise question and an equally precise answer.
Jagadisa Prabhu had asked, “…if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada replied, “The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence”.
Our independence can be rightly or wrongly utilized, AT ANYTIME, there is ALWAYS a chance of FALLING FROM KRISHNALOKA !
We cannot interpret an analogy as, “suggesting” something opposite to what is being explicitly stated a few sentences before.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 1, 2014 @ 3:29 pm
Puskaraska Prabhu, You cite Srila Prabhupada, “The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 4.30.5 purport)
Of course! But remember, this is not a temporal origin, Krisna is the casual origin, we are not created by Krishna we are eternal.
Krishna Book Chapter 87
“It is not stated that the living entities themselves were ever created. Just as the shining particles of the sun’s rays always exist with the sun, the living entities exist eternally as parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead”.
Srila Prabhupada writes, “Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Våndävana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, the Lord enjoys His eternal pastimes, as verified in the Brahma-saàhitä (5.29)”( Isopanisad Mantra 16)
We generally say, “in the Brahman effulgence” to indicate those with impersonal realization but the effulgence of Krishna lights up the spiritual world, thus the pastimes of Krishna are taking place in the light of the brahma-jyoti. Those with impersonal realization only, are simply not conscious of Krishna’s Paramatma or Bhagavan aspects. Those with who are Bhagavan realized also realize the other aspects.
The statement from SB 4/30/5 does not say our original consciousness is Brahman consciousness; Srila Prabhupada write hundreds of times that our original position is Krishna Consciousness.
We can debate about this forever. But Srila Prabhupada has been asked this precise question by leading disciples( temple President and GBC) and gave the clear answer to resolve the seeming contradictions .
Jagadisa asked if one has a relationship, IN KRISHNA LOKA does he ever fall down? Answer: “THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE”.
Another Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, “THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But HIS REALTIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED…..THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
Another letter to Jagadisa:” THESE SPIRIT SOULS AND ALL SPIRIT SOULS ARE COMING FROM VAIKUNTHA”.
Vaikuntha means Vaikuntha consciousness, this is not about a location. We can be in Vaikuntha while inhabiting an earthly body,or in a lesser level( brahman realization) and have no material body.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 1, 2014 @ 3:21 pm
Uttamasloka, You cite from Jaiva Dharma chapter 16,
“There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jīvas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Mahā-Viṣṇu’s glance upon His māyā-śakti. Because these jīvas are situated next to māyā, they perceive her wonderful workings.”
There is a clue in this statement. It is talking about a state of consciousness of the jiva in relation to “…Maha Visnu’s glance upon His maya-sakti”. This is clearly describing the beginning of the universes- the exhaling of Maha Visnu. The conditioned souls are in the state of consciousness described above, periodically, just after the universes begin. Srila Prabhupada’s description of this is strikingly similar to the one from Jaiva Dharma
After the manifestation of the mahat-tattva, these features appear simultaneously. As water in its natural state, before coming in contact with earth, is clear, sweet and unruffled, so the characteristic traits of pure consciousness are complete serenity, clarity, and freedom from distraction.
The pure status of consciousness, or Kåñëa consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Kåñëa consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well….”
You claim, “It is in direct reference to being in this marginal position that SP and the acaryas have made their statements, “we turned away from Krsna,” “we have fallen into the material world,” “we have rejected Krsna,” “we desired to enjoy separate from Krsna,” “we became bewildered by maya” and so on.”
This may be the case in a certain context, but it is absolutely the conclusion of Gaudiya Vaisnavism that the jiva is eternally marginal. In the beginning of the universe one is more conscious of their ability to choose Krisna or Maya. It does not follow (logically) that any reference to marginality must be in regard to this specific situation.
The truth is Srila Prabhupada has said that we can fall from Krishna Loka-we can fall, “at any time from any relationship” (letter to Jagadisa 02/27/1970). Numerous similar statements exist.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 2, 2014 @ 10:52 pm
Mother Visakha Priya,
Srila Prabhupada writes in, “Raja Vidya Chapter 6: Knowledge of Krishna’s Appearances and Activities (Capitals added).
THAT IS THE WHOLE PROCESS OF KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS — THE REVIVAL OF OUR ORIGINAL SAC-CID-ANANDA BODY.
I have recently cited several similar statements from Srila Prabhupada’s books- on the other dandavat articles. But the ultimate conclusion of this issue comes from Srila Prabhupada’s letters with direct answers to the questions.
Unlike some letters, these are not( at least not all) private or individual instructions. Rather they are the history a living Acarya clarifying,for the entire ISKCON society, questions regarding the real and ultimate meaning of what he wrote in his books,. For instance if you read Chapter 5 of, “The Great Transcendental Adventure” By Kurma Prabhu you will learn the, “Crow tal-fruit”, letter was written to Madhuvisa Swami in response to his question regarding a controversy on this topic when he was GBC in Australia.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 25, 2014 @ 3:55 am
Mother Vishaka Priya,
You cite from the purport of Isopanisad Chapter 16, “The all-pervading feature of the Lord—which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jéva-çakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls—is known as Brahman”.
Of course the jiva souls, conditioned or liberated, are Brahman, or living force, not dead matter! The soul therefore glows, Krishna Book Chapter 74, “Then the fortunate Çiçupäla’s spirit soul immediately merged into the body of Lord Kåñëa in the presence of all, exactly as a burning meteor falls to the surface of the globe”.
Earlier in the purport to Isopanisad 16 Srila Prabhupada writes, “Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Våndävana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, the Lord enjoys His eternal pastimes, as verified in the Brahma-saàhitä (5.29)”.
And also in the purport to SB 2/4/14:
“As the sun rays are concentrated in the sun disc, the brahmajyoti is concentrated in Goloka Våndävana, the topmost spiritual planet in the spiritual sky”.
The brahma-jyoti pervades and illuminates Goloka Vrindavana; the pastimes of Krishna and the jivas are thus within the Brahma jyoti. It is not that those with Bhagavan realization do not also realize Brahman. Those with impersonal brahman realization (as opposed to enjoying loving pastimes) are forgetting Krishna and concentrating on his glowing rays only.
Because we are Brahman by nature does not mean that our original realization is an impersonal state. The impersonal realization is a product of focusing on the light emanating from Krishna as opposed to relating to His personal form. Our remembrance or forgetfulness is due to our desire.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 25, 2014 @ 3:46 am
I wrote that, it was a well-known fact that Srila Prabhupada excpected his leading disciples to ask him questions and then teach the answers to devotees in general. In comment 100 you reply, “That is not a “well-known fact”. SP said repeatedly to use his books as the primary source for understanding this philosophy. I was TP of 3 temples and most TPs did NOT use his letters for that pupose. We all used his books primarily. You were not there – I was”.
I can tell you for certain, if I was there; and after reading Srila Prabhupada’s books I had a question regarding seeming contradictions, and I asked Srila Prbahupada directly, I would accept his answer. I would not consider my own opinion regarding how to resolve the seeming contradictions to be more valid than SrilaPrabhupada’s direct answer. And frankly I would not have much faith in a Temple President who felt they had the liberty to answer questions of this nature differently than Srila Prabhupada did!
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 2, 2014 @ 3:09 am
I made an appeal that, regarding the seeming contradiction, we accept Srila Prabhupada answers to a leading devotee. In comment 100 you reply that you were with this devotee (Jagadisda Prabhu) at the time and you were his right hand man. But you do not explain why you do not accept the purposed method for resolving this debate. Instead you attempt to establish that Srila Prabhupada’s answers to these statements are inconclusive. You claim Srila Prabhupada is stating a, “theoretical possibility that never happens”.
If Srila Prabhupada had answered this question by saying it never happens I would accept it. But he didn’t. He said it is always possible from to fall from any relationship at any time. This is the complete answer given. This means it is a misunderstanding to claim that no one can fall from Vaikuntha, per se.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 2, 2014 @ 2:36 am
I have seen several statements from the proponents of the no-fall position that Maya has no influence in Goloka Vrindavana. For example Uttamasloka Prabhu cites Bhaktivinoda Thakura, regarding the residents of Vaikuntha, “They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called māyā or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, māyā is very far away from them and does not affect them at all”.
I do not know anyone who that thinks that Maya can spring up into the Spiritual World and control a devotee in the same way we are controlled in this world as a result of our conditioning. Anyone who does think like that is, of course, wrong.
Yet the fact is, even though there is no connection or influences by Maya, the free will to forget Krishna always exist in the jiva. We do not fall because of Maya we fall because of desire. It is only after entering the material world that Maya, in one sense, has the power to entrap the soul; this is known as conditioning. Every act creates a seed to perform the act again and these seeds go with the subtle body as the soul leaves one gross body and takes another. After billion of billions of births we are so controlled by our habits that free will is almost absent. Maya has no force like that over the pure souls in Vaikuntha. The affect begins after entering into Maya’s kingdom due to misuse of free will.
It is clear that there can be no Maya in the Spiritual World because Maya, by definition, means the illusion of separateness form Krishna. The desire for separateness means we are go out of Vaikuntha, not that Maya has entered into Vaikuntha.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On Jun 1, 2014 @ 1:04 am
If it makes you more Krsna conscious, or more desirous of entering Krsna’s pastimes, to feel you are going home to where you belong, rather than a place you have never been before, then you should keep to that understanding. But for other devotees, whose desire for Krsna’s pastimes has awakened to a point that they know they belong there, even if they have never been before, it is quite suitable that they know the siddhantic tattva, presented by the parampara.
As your position is that Srila Prabhupada taught the fall position because most devotees needed to be taught this way And there are also those whose desire for Krishna’s pastimes have awoken to a point that they do not need to believe this. Why would you not just let those who need to believe continue to believe and let those who do not need to believe just be satisfied with their own conviction?
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 31, 2014 @ 2:27 am
Niscala,you write, “Srila Prabhupada described that we are always in Krsna’s lila, even in this material world, “Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna’s lila. ” letter to Madhudvisa, 1972. This indicates that the breadth and scope of his understanding what it means to be “in Krsna’s lila” and in that context it is in no way a misrepresentation of the truth, to say “We were in Krsna’s lila and have forgotten it” If even the material world is Krsna’s lila, for He is always in some part of it”.
Yes in material existence we are still with Krishna because the external energy is Krishna’s. And we are eternal servants of Krishna; we serve either the internal or the external energy. And thus in the Crow and Tal- Fruit letter Srila Prabhupada says there is no time when we were not with Krishna. And of course this is the truth.
The point is we are not always Krishna Conscious; that is the distinction. Being fully Krishna Conscious means to be in Vaikuntha. Srila Prabhupada said we are always WITH Krishna but we WERE previously in full Krishna Consciousness. Below are a few of quotes many others can be supplied upon request.
In Raja Vidya chapter 6 Srila Prabhupada writes, “That is the whole process of Krishna Consciousness- the REVIVAL of our ORIGINAL SAC- CID- ANANDA BODY (capitals added).
From, Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 9, Further Consideration of Devotional Principals: Submission
“When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be REINSTATED IN THIS POSITION, EITHER AS A FRIEND, SERVANT, PARENT, OR CONJUGAL LOVER(capitals added).
In a letter to Revatinandana 6/13/1970, Srila Prbhupada said, brahman realization is in the category of, “NON KRISHNA CONSCIOUSNESS” and, “WHEN THE FALL TAKES PLACE IT TAKES PLACE FROM THE NON FALLEN POSITION”. So we have fallen from a state beyond that of brahman realization.
Srila Prabhupada to Jagadisa Prabhu, 02/25/1970 “….YOUR FIRST QUESTION-IF SOMONE HAS A RELATIONSHIP WITH LORD KRISHNA ON KRISHNALOKA, DOES HE EVER FALL DOWN? THE SOULS ARE ENDOWED WITH MINUTE INDEPENDENCE AS PART OF THEIR NATURE AND THIS INDEPENCE CAN BE UTTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THER IS ALWAYS THE CAHNCE OF FALLING DOWN BY MISUE OF ONES INDEPENDENCE.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 31, 2014 @ 2:17 am
Uttamasloka, Part 3:
So we have different opinions of what Srila Prabhupada’s ultimate conclusion is. Lets look at how he responds when he is asked about it.
Jagadisa Prabhu asked Srila Prabhupada several questions on this topic. He was Temple President and GBC at the time. Srila Prabhupada was not answering a private letter. He was presenting an answer which would certainly be reiterated to those under Jagadisa’s authority, particularly if there was a controversy about the issue as there is at present.
Proof of Jagadisa Prabhu’s position is from Srila Prabhupad’s letters:( 02/27/70) I am glad to learn that after deliberation between Jayapataka and Raktaka, you have been asked to become the president of Toronto temple. (11/26/70) So far as Canadian expansion is concerned, your suggestion to open centers in Ottawa, Hamilton, Quebec and Winipeg is very nice, so do it practically and Krishna will be pleased by your sincere efforts.(01/16/71) The report from both Hamilton and Vancouver centers is very encouraging.(11/28/70) As you are a member of the governing body.
The letter of (02/27/70) states, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW (capitals added)
(04/25/70) “THIS MINUTE INDEPENDENCE MAY BE UTILIZED RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN (capitals added).
(07/ 09/70) THESE SPIRIT SOULS AND ALL SPIRIT SOULS ARE COMING FROM VAIKUNTHA( capitals added).
If Srila Prabhupada had reiterated his, “no one falls from Vaikuntha”, statement I would accept this as more valid than my interpretation of how to resolve the seeming contradictions. In contrast, he reiterated the statements(found in his books) that the ultimate goal is to, revive, regain, reestablish, and be reinstated in, our loving service to Krishna. Therefore I accept this as more valid than any contrary interpretation. The ultimate authority on Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion is Srila Prabhupada himself, not you or I.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 28, 2014 @ 1:46 am
Uttamasloka, Part 2:
First I beg to point out that I did a veda base search for ““no one falls from the spiritual world once having gone there”, and got 0 hits. I did a search for, “falls from Vaikuntha” and got one hit from Srila Prabhupada’s books.
The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuëöha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.
From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viñëu who descend from Vaikuëöha do not actually fall. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuëöha.
Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viñëu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.
My position is, the question was not whether anyone ever falls from Vaikuntha. Maharaja Yudhisthira could not believe an associate of the Lord could be FORCED out of Vainkuntha by the CURSE of another jiva soul. Then he asked Narada Muni to explain. Srila Prabhupada explains that, “associates of Lord Viñëu who descend from Vaikuëöha do not actually fall”, they come to do something for Krishna.
I argue that we cannot equate ourselves with Jaya and Vijaya. They had no desire to forget Krishna and as such, IN THIS ONE CONTEXT Srila Prabhupada says no one falls from Vaikuntha.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 28, 2014 @ 1:40 am
Uttamasloka, Part 1:
I wrote: “But I accept the answers given by Srila Prabhupada as more valid than your interpretation.” You replied “Once again you (and others) are trying to distort this discussion by implying that I am disagreeing with SP or that I know something he doesn’t. I AM NOT DOING THAT SO PLEASE STOP SAYING THAT!
The problem is we have diametrically opposed opinions on the way to reconcile seeming contradictions found in Srila Prabhupada’s books. There is a prescribed solution. We ask an authority. Srila Prabhupada is not here but he answered these questions as a living guru and we can refer to these answers. It is a well-known fact that Srila Prabhupada explained the correct understanding regarding the philosophy to leading devotees (Temple Presidents and GBC) with the direct intention that they would teach the correct understanding to devotees in general. So his letters, to one who was a Temple President and GBC at the time, contain the conclusion, and this is more valid than either of our opinions on how to resolve the seeming contradictions.
A summary of our different opinions:
I cite several statements from Srila Prabhupada’s books and then I say we should accept the direct meaning when he writes, regain, revive, reinstate, reestablish, etc, our personal loving relationship with Krishna or our, “sac-chid ananda body”. You reply “No it does not mean that. Those who don’t understand this subject repeatedly make these incorrect extrapolations”. Then you cite Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati to prove that accepting the normal dictionary meaning of these words constitutes this, “incorrect extrapolation”
On the other hand you say we must accept the direct meaning regarding other statements. You write “ Srila Prabhpada said numerous times, in full agreement with the previous acaryas and Krsna Himself, that “no one falls from the spiritual world once having gone there”, and there is no way to, “wiggle”, around this. I see it differently.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 28, 2014 @ 1:35 am
Part 2 of 2.
Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, 4/25/1970.
Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and THIS MINUTE INDEPENDECE MAY BE UTILIZED RIIGHTLY OR WRONGLY AT ANY TIME, SO THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN by misuse of one’s independence.
Letter to Jagadisa 7/9/1970
Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. THESE SPIRIT SOLULS AND ALL SPIRIT SOULS ARE COMING FROM VAIKUNTHA, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. THERE IS NO “ NEW” SOUL. “New” and “old” are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul?
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 25, 2014 @ 4:49 pm
Part 1 of 2
Although Srila Prabhupada gave specific instruction in his letters that were not applicable to devotees in general it is also a well-known fact the Srila Prabhupada answered philosophical questions from leaders and expected them to teach the correct understanding to devotees in general. Several of the most explicit answers regarding our fall from Vaikuntha( cited below) were written to Jagadia Prabhu when he was engaged as Temple president for Toronto. He also opened up four Temples and was a member of the GBC at this time.
I am glad to learn that after deliberation between Jayapataka and Raktaka, you have been asked to become the president of Toronto temple.
So far as Canadian expansion is concerned, your suggestion to open centers in Ottawa, Hamilton, Quebec and Winipeg is very nice, so do it practically and Krishna will be pleased by your sincere efforts.
The report from both Hamilton and Vancouver centers is very encouraging.
As you are a member of the governing body.
Jagadisa Prabhu asked Srila Prabhupada if those in the passive relationship were more likely to fall. The letter from Srila Prabhupada of 02/27/1970 reads:
“Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there,THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But HIS REALTIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.(capitals added).
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 25, 2014 @ 4:47 pm
The argument that the letters by Srila Prabhupada on this topic were tailored toward individual devotees and not pertinent to the entire society is erroneous. One principal letter (known as the “Crow and Tal-fruit letter”) was to Madhuvisa Swami who was a GBC secretary. Obviously Srila Prabhupada’s intention was for the leading member to teach the conclusion to devotees in general. This obvious point is corroborated by devotees who were exposed to the letter.
“Çréla Prabhupäda gives a more elaborate description of the nature of the jéva’s bondage in the paper entitled “Crow-and-Täl-Fruit Logic.” He sent this paper to the GBC representative in Australia in June of 1972 to settle a controversy that had arisen there over this issue. I saw it in Philadelphia that year and studied it carefully”. Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu,BTG 30-01 1996.
Çréla Prabhupäda had read Madhudviña’s letter enquiring into the origin of the living entities, and dictated a lengthy reply to his secretary, Çyämasundara. When Madhudviña Swami received Prabhupäda’s detailed three-page response, he copied it and sent it out to all the Australasian centres. In the letter, entitled “Käka taliya nyäya—Crow and Tal-Fruit Logic”, Çréla Prabhupäda shed light on the controversy about whether the conditioned souls fell from the Brahman effulgence or from Vaikuëöha. Kurma Prabhu, “The great Transcendental Adventure”, Chapter 5.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 24, 2014 @ 3:25 pm
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You write, “Similarly many westerners would be opposed to the idea we have never been with Krsna as the Christian idea of the fallen soul is the idea of a prodigal son rejecting the father then returning to him.
As a western Christian I was taught that worshiping images, bowing to a man, or believing in any scripture other then the Bible is grounds for eternal damnation.The idea that God has many girlfriends who are married to other men,does not exactly jibe with any Christian doctrine I am aware of either. Srila Prabhupada did not teach a conclusion apposed to Vedic truth in regards to these issues so I cannot believe he felt compelled to regarding the fall of the jiva either.
I am aware of the story of the prodigal son but regarding our origin, the only western Christian idea I have ever heard is that the soul begins at the time of birth in the present material body. As a Christian I was taught that we were not with God previous to this birth, in fact, previous to our current birth we did not exist.
The no-fall idea is most compatible with my Christian sentiments. But I have accepted many ideas of Kriahna Consciousness that are much more dramatically apposed to my Christian sentiments about either the fall or the no-fall position.
Also I find it hard to believe that Srila Prabhupada’s disciples in the 1960’s and 1970’s were such strong believers in Christianity(or any other conservative social phenomena) that Srila Prabhupada had to appease it.
If a Christian can accept,among numerous other foreign ideas, that God is a little blue cowheard boy with a flute and a peacock feather whose mother bathes Him in cow urine, who sucks the life out of a witch that rides on a tree branch, who was taught in school to train cocks for fighting, etc, they can also accept either the fall or the no- fall position. Srila Prabhupada had no need to teach us a conclusion apposed to the truth to appease us in this regard.
» Posted By Sita Rama 108 On May 24, 2014 @ 2:13 am
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