Comments Posted By Sita Rama 108
Displaying 1 To 10 Of 184 Comments
Kesava Krishna Prabhu
Both sides have been addressed see comments 185, 186, 188, Resting the Jiva fall-no Fall case.
Srila Prabhupada explains we never fall because our conditioned life is simply a dream. When we awake from the dream we are in Vaikuntha. So the answer is yes, we never fall and yes, we were in Vaikuntha before becoming conditioned ( jiv jago). That is seeing both sides.
It is not practical to qualify every statement and deny conventional speech. Srila Prabhupada and devotees usually use the word, fallen, fell, etc, to indicate the conditioned state of forgetting Krishna.We are supposed to know that anything that sounds like we have developed material qualities is just a manner of speaking. There SHOULD be no need to qualify that this is not contradicting the first lesson-that the soul is always pure, it cannot develop any material quality, it just contacts matter the way air contacts aromas. When the air contacts aromas it’s elemental structure does not change; however its un- aromatic nature is not manifest. We never REALLY fall.
It is easy to explain how we can say we are fallen when in reality no one can ever fall. That is the fall position. It is not taking one side and denying another. Rather it is using a little intelligence to understand that Srila Prabhupada does not contradict himself.
What, exactly, is the problem you see with this understanding?
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 08.07.2014 @ 18:20
Kesava Krsna Dasa
You say, ” It is fairly unusual for devotees to accommodate possible alternative viewpoints other than their own. This can be unreasonable and imbalanced”.
I am not sure how unusual it is for devotees to accommodate alternative viewpoints. But the main problem I have with your article is that I only see one side presented;that we should accommodate alternative views. The fact is, sometimes it is appropriate to accommodate alternative views and sometimes it is not.
Of course dialogue is more desirable than competitive debate. Dialogue means both sides accept the view of the other; this results in a more complete understanding.
But dialogue is not always possible, and competitive debate is also useful if it is done in a rational manner. If someone can answer objections, to their view in a rational way, their position becomes more valid and intellectually justifiable.
I find that, usually, while engaged in competitive debate devotees are guilty of some logical fallacies, but overall the arguments are on a rational basis. We should not try to discourage competitive debate simple because of a few imperfections.
To say there is something wrong, in principal, with rejecting a certain viewpoint is, in itself, a fallacious argument. The onus is on the debater to show why the alternative view should be accepted or at least acknowledged.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 04.07.2014 @ 13:24
You write, “So one does not fall from perfection. One falls within perfection, to another part of the complete perfect whole- the prison house of Durga mata.”
This is an interesting point. To put it in the analogy of the prison house; the prison house, itself, is not criminal; it is an extension of the law maker/ head of state. It is only the prisoners within that are criminal.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 26.06.2014 @ 02:04
Mother Vishaka Priya,
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not sure what part of my, ârefutationâ of Niscalaâs position you are in disagreement with; however, there is only one point that I need to make clear.
You conclude with:
So I think that the first thing Srila Prabhupada needed to teach us was that we were eternal souls, not just in the future but in the past as well
My point is:
I, in no way, disagree with the assertion that( as the western world is largely ignorant of the fact) the first thing Srila Prabhupada had to teach us was the real meaning of eternity.
This is always the first lesson for those who are ignorant of this fact. This is shown by the perfect example of the original Guru, namely Krishna. After Krishna called Arjuna , âindirectly, a foolâ,( purport to BG. 2.11) the first point was:
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (BG 2.12).
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 05.06.2014 @ 03:18
Bhaktivikasha Maharaja cites a purport (SB 9.3.10) wherein Srila Prabhupada gives advice to women that being submissive is, â.. the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may beâ.
A male devotee seeking a very submissive wife should have the intelligence to ask himself if it is in his best interest to have his heart conquered as Cyavana Muni did.
Cyavana Muni said: Although you are ineligible to drink soma-rasa in sacrifices, I promise to give you a full pot of it. Kindly arrange beauty and youth for me, because they are attractive to young women.
Cyavana Muni was exalted but still he became entangled in the desire to please his wifeâs senses.
But todayâs men can take solace from the story of Sati leaving Lord Siva. If such a chaste wife as Mother Sati can refuse to submit to the commonsense advice from to the Greatest Vaisnava the chance that any ordinary devotee will get a wife who will always be submissive is nil. Therefore the degree that one will be conquered is mitigated.
I advise devotee men to stop thinking they will get a totally submissive wife. It is a hallucination that would not have the best results in terms of detachment from sense gratification. Accept the reality that the only reason a person serves the senses of another is for their own sense gratification. And make the principal criterion a woman who is sincerely trying to become Krishna Conscious.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 08.06.2014 @ 02:06
In comment 2 a letter by Srila Prabhupada is cited:
“The girls are no longer very much humble and submissive to their husbands.â
So it seems some devotees are trying to encourage women to be more submissive to their husbands. To accomplish this we must understand ALL the reasons WHY women are no longer very submissive.
In 1970. Srila Prabhupada observed:
“Now I see that in our society the girls are more intelligent than the boys”.( letter to Krishnadevi 2/17/1970).
There is no reason to ignore this fact which may contribute to a woman’s reluctance to consider her husband superior in the material sense.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 07.06.2014 @ 12:20
Mother Vishaka Priya
You say, âfor example, the famous (or rather infamous) statement that women like to be raped.â
I think this, âstatementâ should be carefully addressed.
I researched this topic and I have written a paper which a leading devotee circulated among the GBC. In one case Srila Prabhupada was talking about a women enjoying allowing a man to seduce her. In another case Srila Prabhupada( commenting on contemporary criminal case of forced sex) said, âAfter all it is an itching sensation. So either by force or by willingly, if there is itching, everyone feels relieved itching it.â
( Morning Walk May 11, 1975, Perth), It is noteworthy that he says EVERYONE enjoys an itch being scratched; force or no force.
Modern therapist and experts in the field of sexology have been impelled to address this issue. One organization writes:
âYou may have had an orgasm while being raped. You may even have enjoyed the physical sensations even though you didn’t want the sexual actâŠâŠâŠ.. Fear is a powerful stimulant. In addition, your body is designed to achieve orgasm. It has automatic systems which achieve it whether you want it to or not. They are as automatic as breathing and blood circulationâ.( iomfats.org/resources/health/raped.html-top).
In the authoritative, âJournal of Clinical and Forensic Medicineâ Volume 11, issue 2, April 2004 p.82-88). Research on this issue, in regard to criminal liability concludes with, âarousal and even orgasm does not permit the conclusion that the subject consented to the stimulation. A perpetratorâs defense that genital arousal or orgasm in the victim proves consent has no intrinsic validity and should be disregardedâ.
This is consistent with Srila Prabhupadaâs statements in the morning walk cited above. He first said that a lawyer, âby hook and crook, to free his client, got the victim to admit she felt some pleasure during the rapeâ. So Srila Prabhupada said that it was crooked to find the man innocent for this reason.
The soul is distinct from the mind and senses which respond to stimulus in mechanical ways.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 06.06.2014 @ 21:03
Part 2 of 2.
And even then we would have to question ourselves as to whether it is our duty to make such a judgment. If it is our duty to judge and we determine an act is due to weakness, this might mitigate, to some degree, the level of blameworthiness of a particular transgression. Therefore this knowledge of, âwomanly weaknessâ is needed to avoid judging a woman too harshly.
Although it may be off the topic, I think it is interesting that, in a verse shortly after the one cited above, Srila Prabhupada again brings up the topic of gender temperaments.
âThe mother and sisters of SatĂ© could not follow the others, who did not receive SatĂ© very well. Due to natural affection, they immediately embraced her with tears in their eyes and with loving feelings. This shows that women as a class are very softhearted; their natural affection and love cannot be checked by artificial means. Although the men present were very learned brĂ€hmaĂ«as and demigods, they were afraid of their superior, DakĂ±a, and because they knew that their welcoming SatĂ© would displease him, although in their minds they wanted to receive her, they could not do so. Women are naturally softhearted, but men are sometimes very hardhearted.(SB 4,4,7).â
So in this case, the womanly nature gave Satiâs mother and sister the strength to do the right thing. In this case it was right for a wife( Satiâs mother) to disobey the tacit orders of her great husband, Daksa. In this case the general nature of men caused them to be weak; they failed to act properly. Out of fear of Daksa they repressed their feeling and due to hard heartedness they did not give proper respect to a great person.
If we accept Srila Prabhpada cannot deny that, for the most part, the tendencies are consistent with the gender of the individual; but no one says this is 100% Sometimes a most manly man can exhibit excessive attachment for family members(womanly weakness) For example of Arjuna, was crying on the battlefield due to this sentiment. And we all know the anecdote of the Queen properly acting in a hardhearted way by forbidding the King to enter the palace when a war was taking place. So when Srila Prabhupada says generally I accept it very literally. You cannot dissolve it and say there is no general distinction between the temperaments of each. And you cannot say that it is impossible. or even rare for one gender to exhibit tendencies usually associated with the opposite gender.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 05.06.2014 @ 17:05
Part 1 of 2.
I do not intend to disagree with either Bhaktivikasa Maharaja or Mahatma Prabhu who are both very senior, and experienced Srila Prabhupada disciples. But, for a long time, I have had some thoughts about SrilaPrabhupadaâs statements in the verse alluded to and I would like to reveal them here.
Thereafter SatĂ© left her husband, Lord Ăiva, who had given her half his body due to affection. Breathing very heavily because of anger and bereavement, she went to the house of her father. This less intelligent act was due to her being a weak woman.
According to the Vedic conception of family life, the husband gives half his body to his wife, and the wife gives half of her body to her husband. In other words, a husband without a wife or a wife without a husband is incomplete. Vedic marital relationship existed between Lord Ăiva and SatĂ©, but sometimes, due to weakness, a woman becomes very much attracted by the members of her father’s house, and this happened to SatĂ©. In this verse it is specifically mentioned that she wanted to leave such a great husband as Ăiva because of her womanly weakness. In other words, womanly weakness exists even in the relationship between husband and wife. Generally, separation between husband and wife is due to womanly behavior; divorce takes place due to womanly weakness. The best course for a woman is to abide by the orders of her husband. That makes family life very peaceful. Sometimes there may be misunderstandings between husband and wife, as found even in such an elevated family relationship as that of SatĂ© and Lord Ăiva, but a wife should not leave her husband’s protection because of such a misunderstanding. If she does so, it is understood to be due to her womanly weakness.
With all due respect, I would like to point out that if one said, GENERALLY divorce takes place due to womanly WEAKNESS, this would be more accurate paraphrasing than saying, âusually a failed marriage is a womanâs faultâ.
There is no need to justify this statement of the Founder Acharya. But to assure an audience that we are accepting this literally (and properly) we might add that this statement is not justification for assuming a failed marriage is the womanâs fault. Srila Prabhupada says, âgenerallyâ, this means the odds are that this is the reason, but it would be speculation to assume it is the reason in a specific case without looking at the details.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 05.06.2014 @ 16:52
“In this way, the mood should be a mood of cooperation.
Neither of exploitation, nor of dominationâŠ!
Rather, husband and wife should protect each other against the allurements of Maya.
Yet, this being said, there are still laws of nature, both physical or more subtle, which are to be taken into consideration and respected, for a couple to function properly.
In that respect, a good example may be the one of man and woman dancingâŠ Naturally, the man will lead and the woman will harmoniously follow. Both of them will dance harmoniously, without stepping on each otherâs toes. If the woman is a more expert in dancing, she may teach the man some new steps, but the man will keep leading the danceâŠ
This requires from the man to be humble enough to learn from his Godsister who is to be understood to be a jivatma, as he is, and for her to respect the harmony in the laws of God and Nature.”
Seriously Prabhuji this is beautiful. Now I know why I have always liked you even though you sometimes ruffle my feathers. On purpose!
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 08.06.2014 @ 02:15