Comments Posted By Sita Rama 108
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You write, “I find many, many husbands don‚Äôt know what it means to be a good husband and I rarely find unhappy women who have really good husbands.”
At the risk of being presumptuous, I would like to suggest that if you could create specific definitions, and thus operationalize the terms, good husband, unhappy wife etc. And keep record of the number of these along with whether it is the man or the woman who want the divorce, etc, etc. And if you had a sufficient size and variety of samples. You could give statistically significant facts on these topics rather than just your general observations.
I accept your observations because I already agree with you. But statistical data might change the mind of someone who tends to see things differently.
Sita Rama das
You probably do not remember me but I remember you from when I was at the San Diego Temple in the late 80’s early 90’s
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 10.09.2014 @ 16:24
My last paste is one where we see Srila Prabhupada give instructions for both husband and wife.
Srila Prabhupada to Mother Sudevi september 15 1972
Please accept my blessings. I am in receipt of your letter dated September 8, 1972, and have noted the contents therein. Marriage between husband and wife means that the husband must forever be responsible for the wife’s well-being and protection in all cases. That does not mean that now there is agreement between us, therefore I am responsible, but as soon as there is some disagreement then I immediately flee the scene and become so-called renounced. Whether your husband likes to take responsibility as your spiritual guide or not, that does not matter. He must do it. It is his duty because he has taken you as his wife. Therefore he must take full responsibility for you the rest of his life. And you also must agree to serve him under all circumstances and assist him in every way so that he may make advancement in Krsna Consciousness. By his making advancement in Krsna Consciousness, automatically the wife will make advancement in the husband’s footsteps. But if you do not assist him and be very obedient to his welfare, then he may become disgusted and go away. So there must be mutual responsibility by both parties, and now that you are married couple there is no question of your separation, but YOU MUST BOTH TRY VERY HARD TO SERVE KRSNA TOGETHER IN HARMONY( capitals added).
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 04.09.2014 @ 18:40
In comment 3 you claim that it is a religious principal for a man to immediately leave his wife if she is quarrelsome. Says WHO!
Srila Prabhupada said numerous times that at present irresponsible people marry due to lust only; therefore when there is a little difficulty they divorce. This is hippy philosophy not a religious principal.
Srila Prabhupada letter to Mother Laksmimoni 07/10/1969
Any disagreement between husband and wife is not taken very seriously, as much as a disagreement between children is not taken very seriously. This is because the basic principle of married life in Krishna Consciousness is not whimsical lusts, but it is the eternal principle of rendering devotional service to Krishna.
Srila Prabhupada to director of social welfare, 5/ 21/1975
The husband and wife’s quarrel should not be taken very seriously. Aj√§ yuddhe (More quote by C√§√ęakya) Just like fight between two goats. They are fighting, and if you say “Hut!” they will go away. Similarly, the fight between husband and wife should not be taken very seriously. Let them fight for some time; they will stop automatically. But the husband and wife fight, and he, as soon as he goes to the lawyer and he gives incentive, “Yes, come to the court.” This is going on. So the first defect is there is divorce law.
Srila Prabhupada to Madhukara 01/4/1973
They simply have some sex desire, get themselves married, and when the mater does not fulfill their expectations, immediately there is separation‚ÄĒthese things are just like material activities, prostitution. The wife is left without husband, and sometimes there is child to be raised, in so many ways the proposition that you, and some others also, are making becomes distasteful. We cannot expect that our temples will become places of shelter for so many widows and rejected wives, that will be a great burden and we shall become the laughingstock in the society.
Because the real fact is that if there is any difficulty with others, that is my lack of Krsna consciousness, not theirs. Is this clear?
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 04.09.2014 @ 18:35
Someone who expects devotees to work in unhealthy, unsafe, conditions and chastises someone in front of a group is not trainable. That such individuals are in lower management positions indicates too few devotees. This suggests that those in higher management may benefit from learning how to encourage commitment to ISKCON. This can only be effective to the degree that the leaders are dedicated to Srila Prabhupada.
I suggest a management style that has been shown effective through huge amounts of empirical research, namely ‚ÄúTransformational Leadership‚ÄĚ( TL). One university study, cites three meta analysis studies ( a study of numerous studies combined by statistical analysis) which found TL is positively related to satisfaction, performance, and commitment to an organization. It cites numerous other studies showing connections between TL and a host of outcomes that are clearly highly desirable for ISKCON. .Another university study found a positive correlation between transformational leaders and, ‚Äúgroup cohesiveness‚ÄĚ, defined as, ‚Äú… the degree to which members are attracted to each other and are motivated to stay in the group.‚ÄĚ.
If devotees were all satisfied, motivated to commit themselves and perform well, and were attracted to others in our group, we would have enough devotees find some qualified for lower management responsibilities.
Charisma is a quality of one with TL ability. Now, to apply this in ISKCON we have to understand that Srila Prabhupada is the real leader. Charismatic gurus may inspire some growth spurts but that will not result in sustained cohesiveness/ loyalty to ISKCON, if these gurus do not instill their followers with the spirit of being servants of Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON is set up in such a way that those who are not totally dedicated to Srila Prabhupada are destined to leave it at some point. So a real leader, professionally trained or not, is one who puts, Srila Prabhupada (not his own charisma) in the center and inspires others to do the same.
I was initiated in 1980 by a, ‚ÄúZonal Acharya‚ÄĚ, who fell in 1986. To his credit, I always felt a personal connection to Srila Prabhupada so I never left ISKCON as a result t of his fall. I feel grateful for the chance to be connected to ISKCON, under the ultimate management of the GBC,and be able to show some gratitude to Srila Prabhupada by serving his movement.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 04.09.2014 @ 05:53
Kesava Krishna Prabhu,
This is an interesting mediation on Krishna in the form of Time.
You mention,”scientists and physicists who assume that an entire universe came from an infinitely dense nothingness or singularity”
It seems this also describes the theoretical state called,” absolute zero”( by physicists) where matter has no movement and is thus minutely compacted and undifferentiated. This always sounded to me like the pradhana- the material energy before the jivas are injected into it. Do you know if there is any scriptural reference or intelligent justification for my speculation?
Ys, Sita Rama das
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 03.08.2014 @ 02:55
Kesava Krishna Prabhu
Both sides have been addressed see comments 185, 186, 188, Resting the Jiva fall-no Fall case.
Srila Prabhupada explains we never fall because our conditioned life is simply a dream. When we awake from the dream we are in Vaikuntha. So the answer is yes, we never fall and yes, we were in Vaikuntha before becoming conditioned ( jiv jago). That is seeing both sides.
It is not practical to qualify every statement and deny conventional speech. Srila Prabhupada and devotees usually use the word, fallen, fell, etc, to indicate the conditioned state of forgetting Krishna.We are supposed to know that anything that sounds like we have developed material qualities is just a manner of speaking. There SHOULD be no need to qualify that this is not contradicting the first lesson-that the soul is always pure, it cannot develop any material quality, it just contacts matter the way air contacts aromas. When the air contacts aromas it’s elemental structure does not change; however its un- aromatic nature is not manifest. We never REALLY fall.
It is easy to explain how we can say we are fallen when in reality no one can ever fall. That is the fall position. It is not taking one side and denying another. Rather it is using a little intelligence to understand that Srila Prabhupada does not contradict himself.
What, exactly, is the problem you see with this understanding?
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 08.07.2014 @ 18:20
Kesava Krsna Dasa
You say, ” It is fairly unusual for devotees to accommodate possible alternative viewpoints other than their own. This can be unreasonable and imbalanced”.
I am not sure how unusual it is for devotees to accommodate alternative viewpoints. But the main problem I have with your article is that I only see one side presented;that we should accommodate alternative views. The fact is, sometimes it is appropriate to accommodate alternative views and sometimes it is not.
Of course dialogue is more desirable than competitive debate. Dialogue means both sides accept the view of the other; this results in a more complete understanding.
But dialogue is not always possible, and competitive debate is also useful if it is done in a rational manner. If someone can answer objections, to their view in a rational way, their position becomes more valid and intellectually justifiable.
I find that, usually, while engaged in competitive debate devotees are guilty of some logical fallacies, but overall the arguments are on a rational basis. We should not try to discourage competitive debate simple because of a few imperfections.
To say there is something wrong, in principal, with rejecting a certain viewpoint is, in itself, a fallacious argument. The onus is on the debater to show why the alternative view should be accepted or at least acknowledged.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 04.07.2014 @ 13:24
You write, “So one does not fall from perfection. One falls within perfection, to another part of the complete perfect whole- the prison house of Durga mata.”
This is an interesting point. To put it in the analogy of the prison house; the prison house, itself, is not criminal; it is an extension of the law maker/ head of state. It is only the prisoners within that are criminal.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 26.06.2014 @ 02:04
Mother Vishaka Priya,
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am not sure what part of my, ‚Äúrefutation‚ÄĚ of Niscala‚Äôs position you are in disagreement with; however, there is only one point that I need to make clear.
You conclude with:
So I think that the first thing Srila Prabhupada needed to teach us was that we were eternal souls, not just in the future but in the past as well
My point is:
I, in no way, disagree with the assertion that( as the western world is largely ignorant of the fact) the first thing Srila Prabhupada had to teach us was the real meaning of eternity.
This is always the first lesson for those who are ignorant of this fact. This is shown by the perfect example of the original Guru, namely Krishna. After Krishna called Arjuna , ‚Äúindirectly, a fool‚ÄĚ,( purport to BG. 2.11) the first point was:
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be. (BG 2.12).
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 05.06.2014 @ 03:18
Bhaktivikasha Maharaja cites a purport (SB 9.3.10) wherein Srila Prabhupada gives advice to women that being submissive is, ‚Äú.. the tactic by which a woman can conquer the heart of her husband, however irritable or cruel he may be‚ÄĚ.
A male devotee seeking a very submissive wife should have the intelligence to ask himself if it is in his best interest to have his heart conquered as Cyavana Muni did.
Cyavana Muni said: Although you are ineligible to drink soma-rasa in sacrifices, I promise to give you a full pot of it. Kindly arrange beauty and youth for me, because they are attractive to young women.
Cyavana Muni was exalted but still he became entangled in the desire to please his wife‚Äôs senses.
But today‚Äôs men can take solace from the story of Sati leaving Lord Siva. If such a chaste wife as Mother Sati can refuse to submit to the commonsense advice from to the Greatest Vaisnava the chance that any ordinary devotee will get a wife who will always be submissive is nil. Therefore the degree that one will be conquered is mitigated.
I advise devotee men to stop thinking they will get a totally submissive wife. It is a hallucination that would not have the best results in terms of detachment from sense gratification. Accept the reality that the only reason a person serves the senses of another is for their own sense gratification. And make the principal criterion a woman who is sincerely trying to become Krishna Conscious.
Comment Posted By Sita Rama 108 On 08.06.2014 @ 02:06