Comments Posted By WillemV

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The Great Moon Landing Hoax

Comment on #37:

“The Moon is not like the Pole star which sits in one place.”

Polaris does not sit in one place. It merely appears static to us from a geocentric point of view because it is fairly well lined up with the Earth’s axis pointing North. Pointing to the South, a similar thing happens with the star Sigma Octantis.

The procession of the equinoxes causes the Earth axis to tilt in a different direction, completing a cycle in 26,000 years. This means that it points to different regions in the North and South over the centuries and therefore Polaris wasn’t always the pole star and won’t always be.

3,000 BC: Thuban
Currently: Polaris
3,000 AD: Gamma Cephei
5,200 AD: Iota Cephei

“…whether calculating horizontally or vertically, the Moon is further away from Bhu Mandala.”

Yes, that was my point. The Moon is further away from Bhu-mandala than the Sun.

The Earth we live on is not Bhu-mandala, though. It is one of nine varsas on the central island Jambu-dvipa. The Moon is closer to Jambu-dvipa than the Sun, which traverses the mountain range at the far edge of Bhu-mandala furthest away from Jambu-dvipa.

“If the scientists were smart enough they would have tried to land on the Moon at the time of a full eclipse because at that time he is the closest to us but those times are also dangerous.”

You conclude this because you equate Bharata-varsa with Bhu-mandala, wich is like equating Paris with France. Paris is not France, it is in France. Being close to France doesn’t necessarily mean being close to Paris. Eclipses occur on or very near to the plane of the ecliptic (Bhu-mandala).

The orbit of the Moon crosses two apogees and perigees every month, not just during eclipses.

The difference between the Moon’s apogee and perigee is only about 28,000 miles and the Moon journeys were planned so that they would cover the period when the Moon is getting closer to the Earth, facilitating a shorter distance for the return trip, which was at a much lower speed.

“A large number of natural and human disasters are concentrated around eclipse days.”

Utterly unsubstantiated, as shown here:

Comment Posted By WillemV On 05.01.2011 @ 17:10

Comment on #31:

“just like we are not qualified to speak about the technology used in the construction of the vimanas.”

Qualification is of no consequence. There is simply absolutely nothing known about the technology used by vimanas. There may not be any “technology” involved at all, as vimanas belong to the deva realm.

“Those aircraft were able to fly to other dimensions of the universe. But In Kali Yuga there are only ‚Äúvimanas‚ÄĚ which are referred In Vimanika Shasta a as artificial. There it is specifically mentioned that in Kali Yuga aircrafts cannot travel from one planet to another.”

I read my copy of the “Vaimanika Shastra” first back in 1996. Even without knowing where it came from it was clear that it held little merit. The models described, illustrations of which can be found in the back of the book, are aeronautically unsound contraptions with rinky-dinky wings and propellors that can only get airborn when thrown off a mountain.

But why would it show anything else? This book was compiled in the early 1900s by a nationalist fanatic who claims it was dictated to him by a mystic who had channeled it from the “akhasic records” in a trance. And thus you end up with, what one person aptly described as, 20th century fantasy flying machines with an Indian twist.

This so-called “sastra” is not sastra.

Comment Posted By WillemV On 05.01.2011 @ 16:14

Comment on #27:

“It is a historical fact, just as Lord Krsna lifting Govardhana hill is a historical fact. There is a whole section in Mahabharata and other Puranas describing how everything changes sizes in different yugas.”

There is all kinds of stuff in the Mahabharata and Puranas that are stories only, regardless of whether they mention Krishna or not. The mere fact that something is mentioned in these scriptures does not make it an absolute truth. Believe me, with such an attitude you will run into problems quickly.

In some Puranas Shiva is hailed as the Supreme Lord even by Krishna, whom he defeats over and over again. In the Harivamsa, the supplement to the Mahabharata that details Krishna’s childhood, the section on the Govardhana Puja (Visnu Parva 17.11-21) makes it very clear that the Vraja gopas and gopis were accustomed to slaughtering various animals, including buffalos, and that both they and Krishna in the form of Govardhana happily eat the meat.

Now what? Historical facts?

And how do the massive differences between the manuscripts of the Puranas and Mahabharata figure into these historical facts? The earliest manuscripts of the Mahabharata do not even contain the Bhagavad-gita. The Puranas contradict each other on many occasions, both in fact and fiction.

Giant cannibalistic demons? Witches? Magic powers? Curses? Talking animals? Shape shifters? Flying mountains? Eagles capable of interplanetary flight?

Did gemstones really originate from the blood, bile, teeth, fat, and intestines of Valasura (Garuda Purana)? If so, where do the thousands of other gemstones come from not mentioned in the Puranic story (which is limited to gemstones found in India only, by the way)?

The oldest manuscript ever found that mentions the yugas and their characteristics is the Yuga-Purana. I suggest you get yourself a copy. Makes for a very interesting read.

I also don’t expect you to answer any of my questions, by the way. They’re just some food for thought. Literalism is a hallmark of ISKCON, not of the early teachers in the Gaudiya line, nor of the many kingdoms and empires of India’s history in the last 3,000 years.

It is your choice to be disturbed, Shyamasundaraji, just as it is my choice not to be. Not much has changed in that sense since our discussions on canonical scriptures more than a decade ago.

I wish you and your wife the best.

Comment Posted By WillemV On 03.01.2011 @ 08:53

After-thought on #28 continued…

3. The Moon is inhabited by higher beings that will not allow human transgression.
This is based on the puranic story about King Ravana, who sought to build a tower to the heavens so that human mortals could attain it without the required qualifications ‚ÄĒ a story that has its parallel in the story of the Tower of Babel.

4. The astronauts did not see the higher beings, so they were never there.
The expectation here is that these higher beings are visible at all times, whereas scripture makes it clear that they only appear to human mortals if they so desire.

5. All scientists are cheaters and rascals, hence they must be lying and cheating.
A character assasination technique used by Bhaktivedanta Swami throughout his crusade against modern science. Dozens of quotes to this effect can be found here:

6. The Moon is a star and generates its own light, which is contrary to the findings of the Apollo project.
This is based on a lack of understanding of astrological terms, which make clear that nakshatra refers to a “luminary with influence,” not to a star as defined by modern astronomy. The moon is considered the chief luminary because it represents the mind.

7. The Moon is the abode of the god of vegetation and therefore must be full of vegetation, which is contrary to the findings of the Apollo project.
An assumption based on the idea that vegetables grow through the influence of the rays of the Moon and, again, based on the expectation that the deva culture of Chandra-loka should be perceivable by mere humans.

8. The astronauts must have gone somewhere else, like the puranic hellish planets or the planet Rahu, or, if they indeed went to the Moon, they must have landed in an uninhabited area.
Possible attempts to somewhat justify the success of the Apollo project? After all, Rahu is merely the ascending node of the Moon (not a physical planet) and the hellish planets from the fifth canto of the Bhagavata Purana are allegorical (as per Bhaktivinoda Thakur).

Comment Posted By WillemV On 03.01.2011 @ 08:24

After-thought on #28:

“I have given many different reasons offered by Shrila Prabhupada ‚Äôs as to why walking on the Moon was absolutely ripped out of the pages of the comic books.”

Prabhupada’s arguments can be summarized as follows:

1.In puranic cosmology the Moon is further away from Earth than the Sun, requiring a much longer journey than the 4 days it took the Apollo astronauts.

This is based on a lack of understanding of the differences between the cosmologies of the geocentric flat-Earth model of the Puranas and the orbital heliocentric model of modern astronomy. Neither Bhaktivedanta Swami nor his contemporary disciples appear to, at the least, have made a concession that the differences may warrant a mismatch in one-on-one comparison. Instead, the differences enforced the blanket dismissal of the modern understanding and stand-off between the two viewpoints.

2.The order of the days in the week prove that the Moon is further away than the Sun.

This argument (one of the most used by Prabhupada) is beyond me. In most European countries the week starts on Monday, not Sunday. There is no world wide conclusion as to how exactly the names of weekdays have come about or where a week starts. Ancient Celtic and Germanic cultures linked their weekdays to names of gods. There are theories that indicate that the weekdays are named in relation to the brightness of the planets as visible from the Earth with naked eyes and clear night skies, rather than their distance from the Earth. This, however, is not supported by facts. Other theories link the appearance of planets to hours of the day and extrapolate the sequence of weekdays from the planet that occupies the first hour of the day. Again, there is no conclusive correlation between the order of weekday names and the distance of the planets from the Earth.

It also deserves to be mentioned that none of Prabhupada’s brainy disciples ventured to even try and address it. Perhaps the only exception being:

Morning Walk, June 4, 1976, Los Angeles
Tamala Krishna: Prabhupada, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the Moon. I mean, that’s a good logic, but they’ll think that’s very childish for us to say “Sunday first, Monday.”


Comment Posted By WillemV On 03.01.2011 @ 08:15

Comment on #28 continued…

Actually, let’s stop here… I guess it is of no use anyway to provide you with these quotes, is it, Patita Pavanaji?

Although I usually dilligently answer any and all questions thrown at me to the best of my abilities almost all the people on this forum arguing against the moon landings have practically never answered any of the questions posed by me or others arguing in favor of the landings — to the point that even neutral parties started pointing that out. In extension, you et al never address simple facts or refutations of your arguments, either. You simply pile on more or recycle old ones. Quite a telling pattern, no?

I’m still waiting for somewhat of a public acknowledgement by you that *none* of your 27 predictions of doom for the “Jagai” and “Madai” eclipses from 2009/2010 came even close to true. Wishful thinking? Likely.

So let’s just stick to Prabhupada’s last known mention on the matter and hope that this will finally lay to rest the flare-ups of using conspiracy garbage to override your own faith.

Letter to Tirthanga dasa, September, 1977
“Even it is true that they have landed on the Moon, so what is their accomplishment? If I come to Earth planet and land in the Sahara desert, then I say, “Oh, this planet is a barren desert, no one lives here?” The Moon may be like that or like this, so what does that help to our Krsna consciousness movement. We have nothing to do with Moon planet or this planet and that planet in Krsna consciousness. We simply want to serve to Krsna, that’s all.”

Please follow the instructions of your spiritual master. Thank you.

Comment Posted By WillemV On 03.01.2011 @ 08:07

Comment on #28:

“Nonetheless, no proponent of the opposite point of view has shown that Prabhupada ever gave the slightest indication that the Moon landing was a fact. No one can provide such a quote because such a quote does not exist. Hints or statements that such a position does exist are mere bluffs just as the fictitious Moon shots were smoke and mirrors.”

It is certainly true that Prabhupada in general stuck with his viewpoint that Moon landings were impossible within the paradigm of puranic cosmology, which was further encouraged by disciples pesenting him with material from Bill Kaysing’s book. But Prabhupada was neither an astronomer, nor an astrologer. His disciples of those days weren’t either and could hardly pound their chests on their knowledge and understanding of puranic cosmology or history. There is no blame to be assigned for the misunderstandings and their ensueing conclusions.

Now, to claim what you are claiming here, Patita Pavanaji, is a different matter…

SB 7.15.50-51, purport
“It may be remarked in this connection that even the modern so-called scientists who are going to the Moon are not able to stay there, but are returning to their laboratories.”

NOD, Happiness in Krishna Consciousness
“Though the modern astronauts go to the Moon with the help of spaceships, they undergo many difficulties…”

SB 6.1.6, Bombay, November 6, 1970
“Even they have gone, they are landing in some part of the Moon planet where there is no inhabitation.”

SB 1.1.2, London, August 16, 1971
“Just like these so-called scientists are going to the Moon planet and coming back ‚ÄĒ because conditioned.”

SB 2.1.5, Los Angeles, August 13, 1972
“Just like in modern days, especially your American scientists, they are going to the Moon planet. But when their stock of, that machine, is finished, immediately they come down…”

Bhagavad-Gita 4.12, Vrindavan, August 4, 1974
“Now they are going, trying to go to the Moon planet. Or they have gone. That is education, scientific education.”

Departure Lecture, London, March 12, 1975
“Just like these Moon-planet-goers, they attempted many times jumping, but they could not get any shelter. They have come back again.”


Comment Posted By WillemV On 03.01.2011 @ 07:42

Comment on #20:

“It is a fact, when in US and other countries more and more people do see through the past propaganda of the Moon landing (in my country these facts are openly published in magazines), in India scientists are trying to go to the Moon and just two days ago their rocket blew up one minute after take-off. They could not even launch a satellite.”

Saying that something is a fact doesn’t make it a fact. As a matter of fact, your facts mostly turn out not to be facts at all.

Gallup’s famous poll of 1999 has shown that the Moon-hoax conspiracy never reached anywhere near even 10% of the US population.

Russia had its own active moon landing program untill well into the 70s. Several countries are pursuing it right now. Over all, the mood seems to be up world-wide as far as space travel is concerned.

India’s most recent satellite launch was indeed a failure, but as an isolated incident that means little to their Moon project. Failure is merely a stepping stone. India has successfully launched dozens of satellites since the late 70s:

“When Kennedy said, ‘We are going to the Moon’, everyone knew that they are going to do even if it has to be done by hook or by crook. And since Sukadeva Goswami has declared that the Moon is further than the Sun and that has been stressed by Srila Prabhupada we should have a great desire to prove these statement as the only truth”

Chandra is vertically located higher above the plain of Bhu-mandala than Surya.

In other words, the Moon is further away from Bhu-mandala (sometimes called the Earth) than the Sun.

Surya is horizontally at a further distance from Jambu-dvipa than Chandra.

In other words, the Sun is further away from Jambu-dvipa (where Bharata-varsa, the Earth, is) than the Moon.

So yes, from a puranic cosmological point of view the Moon is further away from the “Earth” (Bhu-mandala) than the Sun. But from the same puranic cosmological point of view we do not live on Bhu-mandala anywhere near the Sun. We live in the center, on Jambu-dvipa, in a region called Bharata-varsa, much closer to the Moon than the Sun.

This has been explained many times in related threads. If you are still not willing to understand this simple difference, it must be because you choose to do so

Comment Posted By WillemV On 27.12.2010 @ 18:34

Comment on #13:

“Why have we allowed others who are interested in karma and mundane activities to propagate these subjects instead of us who should be teaching them in Krishna Conscious ways to the world?”

Are you trying to rewrite the history of India (and the world) or do you simply know practically nothing of it and still try to come off as if you do? Either way, it’s not working.

To teach the world requires much more than an elitist holier-than-thou attitude. Much more.

“After all, the temple on 26th Second Avenue was the first ‘Hindu’ temple in the west, have we lost our lead somewhere along the way?”

The whimsical way you present “facts” is starting to mirror that of your husband.

Even if by “Hindu” you sarcastically mean vaishnava, Surendranath Mukerji (1868-1914), better known as Baba Premananda Bharati, was a Chaitanya Vaisnava who came to New York in 1902, long before Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja even sent his first disciples to England in 1933. He was a student of Swami Brahmanand Bharati and established a society in New York called “The Krishna Samaj” and published a treatise called “Sree Krishna” (yes, I’ve read it). From 1906 to 1912 he published a periodical much like BTG, called “The Light of India.” He is the earliest known Vaisnava to have used the English term “Krishna consciousness.” He traveled and lectured extensively.

He is said to have had as many as 5,000 disciples in the US alone. Toward the end of 1907, he returned to India with six American disciples and opened a mission in Calcutta, which failed due to lacking financial support, leading him to relocate back to the US in 1910 with his followers. Having returned to India again in 1911, Bharati died in Calcutta in 1914, an event which soon led to the closing of the temple in America.

“It is a characteristic of the third world countries to follow the leading nations and some do catch up decades later when the leader is doing something totally different. Like this the followers never have a chance to be equal to the leaders. It is due to the British invasion in India which has rendered a great spiritual nation to a mere follower of modern hoax.”

Pure speculation. I suggest you study history first, instead of continuing to make these flippant speudo-factual statements.

Comment Posted By WillemV On 27.12.2010 @ 18:05

Comment on #12-15

“Our position as disciples is to simply accept Shri Guru-vani without adding our own ‘I think’ or ‘grey area’ (as two letters above have suggested) to the mix.”

Guru-vani and guru-opinion/like/dislike/personal preference/taste are two very different things. It serves no positive or progressive purpose to elevate the latter to the level of absolute, unquestionable truth.

“Neither should devotees like Payonidhi or myself be banned from this forum for expressing allegiance to our spiritual master‚Äôs instructions, as one person suggested above.”

That would be me, I guess, although I did not suggest the banning of either. I (and others) merely wonder why Danadavats keeps posting articles from you that are full of inaccuracies posing as facts.

“Just say exactly what I have said. Nothing more.’ So in pursuance of that divine instruction, ‘my’ article sets out to accomplish exactly that.”

No, it doesn’t. It sets out to isolate particular, incomplete viewpoints of your spiritual master to rikindle a controversial topic that has been chewed out already. Then later on you say that it’s all useless and dangerous, and that we should just chant Hare Krishna…

“Nonetheless, when even NASA engineers like Bill Kaysing show how the Moon launch was a total sham…”

Bill Kaysing was not a NASA engineer. You are simply doing the same thing Payonidhi and others did in the previous thread on this matter: you are accepting and parotting badly researched conspiracy garbage as if it is divinely revealed sastra.

Please get to know the people you are parotting befor you blindly accept their nonsense:

“From a historical point of view, the fact is that the rascal demonic American scientists and politicians (under the guidance of the Nazi scientists like Werner Von Braun) totally faked the Moon landing as one of many hoaxes perpetrated by America to validate further suffering for the very people who elect the politicians and worship the scientists. This is all public record.”

Hollow words, as you are most definitely neither qualified nor able to prove this. Otherwise, please provide references to your source materials or research. Thanks.

Comment Posted By WillemV On 26.12.2010 @ 18:48


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