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Comments Posted By WillemV

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The Great Moon Landing Hoax

Comment on #37:

“The Moon is not like the Pole star which sits in one place.”

Polaris does not sit in one place. It merely appears static to us from a geocentric point of view because it is fairly well lined up with the Earth’s axis pointing North. Pointing to the South, a similar thing happens with the star Sigma Octantis.

The procession of the equinoxes causes the Earth axis to tilt in a different direction, completing a cycle in 26,000 years. This means that it points to different regions in the North and South over the centuries and therefore Polaris wasn’t always the pole star and won’t always be.

3,000 BC: Thuban
Currently: Polaris
3,000 AD: Gamma Cephei
5,200 AD: Iota Cephei

“…whether calculating horizontally or vertically, the Moon is further away from Bhu Mandala.”

Yes, that was my point. The Moon is further away from Bhu-mandala than the Sun.

The Earth we live on is not Bhu-mandala, though. It is one of nine varsas on the central island Jambu-dvipa. The Moon is closer to Jambu-dvipa than the Sun, which traverses the mountain range at the far edge of Bhu-mandala furthest away from Jambu-dvipa.

“If the scientists were smart enough they would have tried to land on the Moon at the time of a full eclipse because at that time he is the closest to us but those times are also dangerous.”

You conclude this because you equate Bharata-varsa with Bhu-mandala, wich is like equating Paris with France. Paris is not France, it is in France. Being close to France doesn’t necessarily mean being close to Paris. Eclipses occur on or very near to the plane of the ecliptic (Bhu-mandala).

The orbit of the Moon crosses two apogees and perigees every month, not just during eclipses.

The difference between the Moon’s apogee and perigee is only about 28,000 miles and the Moon journeys were planned so that they would cover the period when the Moon is getting closer to the Earth, facilitating a shorter distance for the return trip, which was at a much lower speed.

“A large number of natural and human disasters are concentrated around eclipse days.”

Utterly unsubstantiated, as shown here:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8025#comment-12054

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 5, 2011 @ 5:10 pm

Comment on #31:

“just like we are not qualified to speak about the technology used in the construction of the vimanas.”

Qualification is of no consequence. There is simply absolutely nothing known about the technology used by vimanas. There may not be any “technology” involved at all, as vimanas belong to the deva realm.

“Those aircraft were able to fly to other dimensions of the universe. But In Kali Yuga there are only “vimanas” which are referred In Vimanika Shasta a as artificial. There it is specifically mentioned that in Kali Yuga aircrafts cannot travel from one planet to another.”

I read my copy of the “Vaimanika Shastra” first back in 1996. Even without knowing where it came from it was clear that it held little merit. The models described, illustrations of which can be found in the back of the book, are aeronautically unsound contraptions with rinky-dinky wings and propellors that can only get airborn when thrown off a mountain.

But why would it show anything else? This book was compiled in the early 1900s by a nationalist fanatic who claims it was dictated to him by a mystic who had channeled it from the “akhasic records” in a trance. And thus you end up with, what one person aptly described as, 20th century fantasy flying machines with an Indian twist.

This so-called “sastra” is not sastra.

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 5, 2011 @ 4:14 pm

Comment on #27:

“It is a historical fact, just as Lord Krsna lifting Govardhana hill is a historical fact. There is a whole section in Mahabharata and other Puranas describing how everything changes sizes in different yugas.”

There is all kinds of stuff in the Mahabharata and Puranas that are stories only, regardless of whether they mention Krishna or not. The mere fact that something is mentioned in these scriptures does not make it an absolute truth. Believe me, with such an attitude you will run into problems quickly.

In some Puranas Shiva is hailed as the Supreme Lord even by Krishna, whom he defeats over and over again. In the Harivamsa, the supplement to the Mahabharata that details Krishna’s childhood, the section on the Govardhana Puja (Visnu Parva 17.11-21) makes it very clear that the Vraja gopas and gopis were accustomed to slaughtering various animals, including buffalos, and that both they and Krishna in the form of Govardhana happily eat the meat.

Now what? Historical facts?

And how do the massive differences between the manuscripts of the Puranas and Mahabharata figure into these historical facts? The earliest manuscripts of the Mahabharata do not even contain the Bhagavad-gita. The Puranas contradict each other on many occasions, both in fact and fiction.

Giant cannibalistic demons? Witches? Magic powers? Curses? Talking animals? Shape shifters? Flying mountains? Eagles capable of interplanetary flight?

Did gemstones really originate from the blood, bile, teeth, fat, and intestines of Valasura (Garuda Purana)? If so, where do the thousands of other gemstones come from not mentioned in the Puranic story (which is limited to gemstones found in India only, by the way)?

The oldest manuscript ever found that mentions the yugas and their characteristics is the Yuga-Purana. I suggest you get yourself a copy. Makes for a very interesting read.

I also don’t expect you to answer any of my questions, by the way. They’re just some food for thought. Literalism is a hallmark of ISKCON, not of the early teachers in the Gaudiya line, nor of the many kingdoms and empires of India’s history in the last 3,000 years.

It is your choice to be disturbed, Shyamasundaraji, just as it is my choice not to be. Not much has changed in that sense since our discussions on canonical scriptures more than a decade ago.

I wish you and your wife the best.

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 3, 2011 @ 8:53 am

After-thought on #28 continued…

3. The Moon is inhabited by higher beings that will not allow human transgression.
This is based on the puranic story about King Ravana, who sought to build a tower to the heavens so that human mortals could attain it without the required qualifications — a story that has its parallel in the story of the Tower of Babel.

4. The astronauts did not see the higher beings, so they were never there.
The expectation here is that these higher beings are visible at all times, whereas scripture makes it clear that they only appear to human mortals if they so desire.

5. All scientists are cheaters and rascals, hence they must be lying and cheating.
A character assasination technique used by Bhaktivedanta Swami throughout his crusade against modern science. Dozens of quotes to this effect can be found here: kuruvinda.com/ref3e.html

6. The Moon is a star and generates its own light, which is contrary to the findings of the Apollo project.
This is based on a lack of understanding of astrological terms, which make clear that nakshatra refers to a “luminary with influence,” not to a star as defined by modern astronomy. The moon is considered the chief luminary because it represents the mind.

7. The Moon is the abode of the god of vegetation and therefore must be full of vegetation, which is contrary to the findings of the Apollo project.
An assumption based on the idea that vegetables grow through the influence of the rays of the Moon and, again, based on the expectation that the deva culture of Chandra-loka should be perceivable by mere humans.

8. The astronauts must have gone somewhere else, like the puranic hellish planets or the planet Rahu, or, if they indeed went to the Moon, they must have landed in an uninhabited area.
Possible attempts to somewhat justify the success of the Apollo project? After all, Rahu is merely the ascending node of the Moon (not a physical planet) and the hellish planets from the fifth canto of the Bhagavata Purana are allegorical (as per Bhaktivinoda Thakur).

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 3, 2011 @ 8:24 am

After-thought on #28:

“I have given many different reasons offered by Shrila Prabhupada ’s as to why walking on the Moon was absolutely ripped out of the pages of the comic books.”

Prabhupada’s arguments can be summarized as follows:

1.In puranic cosmology the Moon is further away from Earth than the Sun, requiring a much longer journey than the 4 days it took the Apollo astronauts.

This is based on a lack of understanding of the differences between the cosmologies of the geocentric flat-Earth model of the Puranas and the orbital heliocentric model of modern astronomy. Neither Bhaktivedanta Swami nor his contemporary disciples appear to, at the least, have made a concession that the differences may warrant a mismatch in one-on-one comparison. Instead, the differences enforced the blanket dismissal of the modern understanding and stand-off between the two viewpoints.

2.The order of the days in the week prove that the Moon is further away than the Sun.

This argument (one of the most used by Prabhupada) is beyond me. In most European countries the week starts on Monday, not Sunday. There is no world wide conclusion as to how exactly the names of weekdays have come about or where a week starts. Ancient Celtic and Germanic cultures linked their weekdays to names of gods. There are theories that indicate that the weekdays are named in relation to the brightness of the planets as visible from the Earth with naked eyes and clear night skies, rather than their distance from the Earth. This, however, is not supported by facts. Other theories link the appearance of planets to hours of the day and extrapolate the sequence of weekdays from the planet that occupies the first hour of the day. Again, there is no conclusive correlation between the order of weekday names and the distance of the planets from the Earth.

It also deserves to be mentioned that none of Prabhupada’s brainy disciples ventured to even try and address it. Perhaps the only exception being:

Morning Walk, June 4, 1976, Los Angeles
Tamala Krishna: Prabhupada, it is very difficult to convince the people that they have not gone to the Moon. I mean, that’s a good logic, but they’ll think that’s very childish for us to say “Sunday first, Monday.”

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 3, 2011 @ 8:15 am

Comment on #28 continued…

Actually, let’s stop here… I guess it is of no use anyway to provide you with these quotes, is it, Patita Pavanaji?

Although I usually dilligently answer any and all questions thrown at me to the best of my abilities almost all the people on this forum arguing against the moon landings have practically never answered any of the questions posed by me or others arguing in favor of the landings — to the point that even neutral parties started pointing that out. In extension, you et al never address simple facts or refutations of your arguments, either. You simply pile on more or recycle old ones. Quite a telling pattern, no?

I’m still waiting for somewhat of a public acknowledgement by you that *none* of your 27 predictions of doom for the “Jagai” and “Madai” eclipses from 2009/2010 came even close to true. Wishful thinking? Likely.

So let’s just stick to Prabhupada’s last known mention on the matter and hope that this will finally lay to rest the flare-ups of using conspiracy garbage to override your own faith.

Letter to Tirthanga dasa, September, 1977
“Even it is true that they have landed on the Moon, so what is their accomplishment? If I come to Earth planet and land in the Sahara desert, then I say, “Oh, this planet is a barren desert, no one lives here?” The Moon may be like that or like this, so what does that help to our Krsna consciousness movement. We have nothing to do with Moon planet or this planet and that planet in Krsna consciousness. We simply want to serve to Krsna, that’s all.”

Please follow the instructions of your spiritual master. Thank you.

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 3, 2011 @ 8:07 am

Comment on #28:

“Nonetheless, no proponent of the opposite point of view has shown that Prabhupada ever gave the slightest indication that the Moon landing was a fact. No one can provide such a quote because such a quote does not exist. Hints or statements that such a position does exist are mere bluffs just as the fictitious Moon shots were smoke and mirrors.”

It is certainly true that Prabhupada in general stuck with his viewpoint that Moon landings were impossible within the paradigm of puranic cosmology, which was further encouraged by disciples pesenting him with material from Bill Kaysing’s book. But Prabhupada was neither an astronomer, nor an astrologer. His disciples of those days weren’t either and could hardly pound their chests on their knowledge and understanding of puranic cosmology or history. There is no blame to be assigned for the misunderstandings and their ensueing conclusions.

Now, to claim what you are claiming here, Patita Pavanaji, is a different matter…

SB 7.15.50-51, purport
“It may be remarked in this connection that even the modern so-called scientists who are going to the Moon are not able to stay there, but are returning to their laboratories.”

NOD, Happiness in Krishna Consciousness
“Though the modern astronauts go to the Moon with the help of spaceships, they undergo many difficulties…”

SB 6.1.6, Bombay, November 6, 1970
“Even they have gone, they are landing in some part of the Moon planet where there is no inhabitation.”

SB 1.1.2, London, August 16, 1971
“Just like these so-called scientists are going to the Moon planet and coming back — because conditioned.”

SB 2.1.5, Los Angeles, August 13, 1972
“Just like in modern days, especially your American scientists, they are going to the Moon planet. But when their stock of, that machine, is finished, immediately they come down…”

Bhagavad-Gita 4.12, Vrindavan, August 4, 1974
“Now they are going, trying to go to the Moon planet. Or they have gone. That is education, scientific education.”

Departure Lecture, London, March 12, 1975
“Just like these Moon-planet-goers, they attempted many times jumping, but they could not get any shelter. They have come back again.”

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 3, 2011 @ 7:42 am

Comment on #20:

“It is a fact, when in US and other countries more and more people do see through the past propaganda of the Moon landing (in my country these facts are openly published in magazines), in India scientists are trying to go to the Moon and just two days ago their rocket blew up one minute after take-off. They could not even launch a satellite.”

Saying that something is a fact doesn’t make it a fact. As a matter of fact, your facts mostly turn out not to be facts at all.

Gallup’s famous poll of 1999 has shown that the Moon-hoax conspiracy never reached anywhere near even 10% of the US population.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1993/Did-Men-Really-Land-Moon.aspx
http://www.gallup.com/poll/3712/Landing-Man-Moon-Publics-View.aspx

Russia had its own active moon landing program untill well into the 70s. Several countries are pursuing it right now. Over all, the mood seems to be up world-wide as far as space travel is concerned.

India’s most recent satellite launch was indeed a failure, but as an isolated incident that means little to their Moon project. Failure is merely a stepping stone. India has successfully launched dozens of satellites since the late 70s:

http://www.isro.org/scripts/milestones.aspx

“When Kennedy said, ‘We are going to the Moon’, everyone knew that they are going to do even if it has to be done by hook or by crook. And since Sukadeva Goswami has declared that the Moon is further than the Sun and that has been stressed by Srila Prabhupada we should have a great desire to prove these statement as the only truth”

Chandra is vertically located higher above the plain of Bhu-mandala than Surya.

In other words, the Moon is further away from Bhu-mandala (sometimes called the Earth) than the Sun.

Surya is horizontally at a further distance from Jambu-dvipa than Chandra.

In other words, the Sun is further away from Jambu-dvipa (where Bharata-varsa, the Earth, is) than the Moon.

So yes, from a puranic cosmological point of view the Moon is further away from the “Earth” (Bhu-mandala) than the Sun. But from the same puranic cosmological point of view we do not live on Bhu-mandala anywhere near the Sun. We live in the center, on Jambu-dvipa, in a region called Bharata-varsa, much closer to the Moon than the Sun.

This has been explained many times in related threads. If you are still not willing to understand this simple difference, it must be because you choose to do so

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 27, 2010 @ 6:34 pm

Comment on #13:

“Why have we allowed others who are interested in karma and mundane activities to propagate these subjects instead of us who should be teaching them in Krishna Conscious ways to the world?”

Are you trying to rewrite the history of India (and the world) or do you simply know practically nothing of it and still try to come off as if you do? Either way, it’s not working.

To teach the world requires much more than an elitist holier-than-thou attitude. Much more.

“After all, the temple on 26th Second Avenue was the first ‘Hindu’ temple in the west, have we lost our lead somewhere along the way?”

The whimsical way you present “facts” is starting to mirror that of your husband.

Even if by “Hindu” you sarcastically mean vaishnava, Surendranath Mukerji (1868-1914), better known as Baba Premananda Bharati, was a Chaitanya Vaisnava who came to New York in 1902, long before Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja even sent his first disciples to England in 1933. He was a student of Swami Brahmanand Bharati and established a society in New York called “The Krishna Samaj” and published a treatise called “Sree Krishna” (yes, I’ve read it). From 1906 to 1912 he published a periodical much like BTG, called “The Light of India.” He is the earliest known Vaisnava to have used the English term “Krishna consciousness.” He traveled and lectured extensively.

He is said to have had as many as 5,000 disciples in the US alone. Toward the end of 1907, he returned to India with six American disciples and opened a mission in Calcutta, which failed due to lacking financial support, leading him to relocate back to the US in 1910 with his followers. Having returned to India again in 1911, Bharati died in Calcutta in 1914, an event which soon led to the closing of the temple in America.

“It is a characteristic of the third world countries to follow the leading nations and some do catch up decades later when the leader is doing something totally different. Like this the followers never have a chance to be equal to the leaders. It is due to the British invasion in India which has rendered a great spiritual nation to a mere follower of modern hoax.”

Pure speculation. I suggest you study history first, instead of continuing to make these flippant speudo-factual statements.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 27, 2010 @ 6:05 pm

Comment on #12-15

“Our position as disciples is to simply accept Shri Guru-vani without adding our own ‘I think’ or ‘grey area’ (as two letters above have suggested) to the mix.”

Guru-vani and guru-opinion/like/dislike/personal preference/taste are two very different things. It serves no positive or progressive purpose to elevate the latter to the level of absolute, unquestionable truth.

“Neither should devotees like Payonidhi or myself be banned from this forum for expressing allegiance to our spiritual master’s instructions, as one person suggested above.”

That would be me, I guess, although I did not suggest the banning of either. I (and others) merely wonder why Danadavats keeps posting articles from you that are full of inaccuracies posing as facts.

“Just say exactly what I have said. Nothing more.’ So in pursuance of that divine instruction, ‘my’ article sets out to accomplish exactly that.”

No, it doesn’t. It sets out to isolate particular, incomplete viewpoints of your spiritual master to rikindle a controversial topic that has been chewed out already. Then later on you say that it’s all useless and dangerous, and that we should just chant Hare Krishna…

“Nonetheless, when even NASA engineers like Bill Kaysing show how the Moon launch was a total sham…”

Bill Kaysing was not a NASA engineer. You are simply doing the same thing Payonidhi and others did in the previous thread on this matter: you are accepting and parotting badly researched conspiracy garbage as if it is divinely revealed sastra.

Please get to know the people you are parotting befor you blindly accept their nonsense:

http://kuruvinda.com/MoonHoax.aspx?p=3

“From a historical point of view, the fact is that the rascal demonic American scientists and politicians (under the guidance of the Nazi scientists like Werner Von Braun) totally faked the Moon landing as one of many hoaxes perpetrated by America to validate further suffering for the very people who elect the politicians and worship the scientists. This is all public record.”

Hollow words, as you are most definitely neither qualified nor able to prove this. Otherwise, please provide references to your source materials or research. Thanks.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 26, 2010 @ 6:48 pm

Comment on #11

“let’s say a future scientist finds debris of an armored vehicle some 10, 000 years from today.” etc. etc.

Let’s not say that, because there is no way that your imaginings about the mental. intellectual, and motivational state of humans 10,000 years from now offers anything realistic to the discussion at hand. There is simply no way to know what people will be like by then.

“We know from Srimad Bhagavatam that when Muchukunda finally got up after his long sleep he found that the trees over the entire Earth have become very small.” etc. etc.

Your premise is that this story is representing a historical fact, rather than an allegorical framework for philosophical content.

“In different ages living entities had different sizes. In fact in India few skeletons of humans have been found the head of which is as big as an entire human being.”

Fact? Uhm, you mean the digitally altered picture of a Mastodont found in New York that made its round over the world in 2007? Or some of the other doctored images and stories in this regard?

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/giant-skeleton.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071214-giant-skeleton.html

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20041001_en.html

“Out of shame, they cannot give up their theories and add to the fallibility of science. They will have to officially admit that dinosaurs are just skeletons of giant birds and other creatures left from a different yuga.”

And you know this to be true because…?

“If you have never seen a chicken and if you just have chicken’s skeleton, you can make up at least 10 different variations of its appearance. Try it for fun. They you will get a contemporary dinosaur re-sized. Imagination is there not to invent but to imagine things in perspective once we hear shastra.”

Yes, imagination can do a lot, as you yourself have shown here. Studies of musculature in relation to bone size and density, posture, metabolism, and other scientific and medical disciplines yield more realistic results than imagining dinosaur-sized chickens. This, and studies of fairly recently discovered fossilized soft tissue, complete skeletons, and skin imprints have helped the ongoing fine-tuning of the historical record, so that fantasy becomes less and less of an option.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 26, 2010 @ 6:22 pm

Another badly researched and emotionally laden article by Patita Pavana that shows he obviously didn’t even read the entire exchange he is referring to. What else can I say? It’s getting really frustrating… =(

“Varnadi das expressed such doubt”?

“a true disciple’s feelings”?

“self-ordained lettered mob”?

“outnumbered 1,000’s to 1″?

“simple logic defeats intellectual condescension shrouded in pseudoscientific jargon”?

Are you for real???

The 89 direct references of Prabhupada to the moon landings, space flight, and astronomy, and their related conversations, that I have studied over the last couple of years do not mirror your assertions at all.

Instead, they show massive misunderstandings about the difference between puranic cosmology and modern astronomy, gullible disciples presenting Prabhupada with conspiracy material from Bill Kaising’s book, and statements by Prabhupada that show that he himself was at times ambiguous about the issue.

I am also failing to understand why Dandavats continues to publish your articles, despite your dismal track record of accuracy — as shown here:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7951#comment-11733

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7951#comment-11764

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8025#comment-11931

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8025#comment-12054

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=8025#comment-12163

Payonidhiji,

“if we ever look at a solar eclipse it is clear there is a dark planet coming in fron ot the Sun, to me it is really very simple to understand…”

Yes, that would be the Moon coming in between the Earth and the Sun, eclipsing the Sun.

Just like with a Lunar eclipse the Earth is coming in between the Sun and the Moon. However, this casts a shadow over the Moon that leaves the Moon visible. The view is not blocked by an object, like with a Solar eclipse, but dimmed by a shadow. This is visible even with the naked eye. I spent almost an hour outside looking at the recent Lunar eclipse and can attest to this.

Simple to understand, indeed.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 22, 2010 @ 9:57 pm

Man plays God, really?

Strange. You ask questions, but they contain the strong impression that you don’t really want any answers to them in lieu of your implied ones. Maybe I’m wrong, but they look more like comments posed as questions.

Still, since you asked…

1) No. Therefore the second part of this question bears no meaning.

2) I don’t really see how this question relates to the article, nor what “chemicals” you are referring to. The article is about changing one species of bacterium into another by means of synthesized DNA. The research is about modifying existing life, not about creating life.

3) No life is created. No claim is made to the creation of life in the original release, despite the hype of the media. Did you actually read the article (and perhaps followed up a bit more…)?

4) Nowhere in the article does anyone state that everything came from chance. So who is taking credit for what, then? That everything came from chance is a concept imposed by devotees upon antiquated theories about the origin of the universe. Concurrent science is acutely aware that nothing happens by chance and readily admits that there is plenty left unanswered. It’s an argument that holds very little water after 40 years on a shelf.

Your questions simultaneously build and defeat their own straw-men, without even having to provide the answers. Neat, but this “Life Comes From Life” rhetoric is ultimately unrelated to the article. Beyond its symptoms and associated physical reactions, life is poorly understood in any field of science — to say the least. Therefore the last 30 years have seen increasing inqueries into its nature and no attempts to create it — despite enormous advances in the fields of biomechanics and the lot.

As with many science related fields, before we judge and comment (or question) in the scope of “preaching” or providing a “vedic” viewpoint, we’d do well to familiarize ourselves with the topic at hand and leave outdated and unrelated arguments where they belong: on the shelf.

Cheers!

» Posted By WillemV On Jul 15, 2010 @ 10:57 pm

Is Astrology Useful in Krishna Consciousness? Part One – The Panchang

Comment on #25 continued…

You see, Akruranathji? The predictions don’t really hold any merit on their own, and they are also not allotted merit just because an earthquake occurred 3 days before the annular solar eclipse. Today alone there were 77 earth quakes worldwide averaging 5.0 on the Richter scale (USGS website tracks them all). The 8.8 one in Chile made the headlines, and Hawaii is on high tsunami alert.

The bottom line is really a numbers game. The number of bad things happening in an average year worldwide is so high that it provides a massive surplus for every day of the year on doomsday sayers’ calendars. If it weren’t for human nature’s leaning towards negative sensationalism, people could do the same with the surplus of good things that happen year round.

This actually points to an important aspect of the whole discussion: time frames.

How far forward and back in time does the alleged influence of an eclipse span? Is it different for lunar and solar eclipses? Is it different for the level of totality of the eclipse? Does the influence strengthen and wane before and after respectively?
.

Mars did approach Earth very close recently, but not last year. It was in 2003, at the time the Iraq war started. Hmmm.

Very funny, Akruranathaji, but even here the facts are slightly different. ;-)

The war in Iraq started with Operation Iraqi Freedom on March 20, 2003. Mars’ close encounter with Earth wasn’t until 5 months later, on August 27. Not only that, Mars has a close encounter with Earth roughly every two years and two months and has done so for eons (it’s orbital…). As a matter of fact, today, January 27, is another such occasion.

The war in Afghanistan started on October 7, 2001, when Mars was two and a half times further away from Earth than in 2003 (84,680,466 vs 34,646,414 miles). I am fairly sure that there is no correlation between Mars’ distance to Earth and wars, either.

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 27, 2010 @ 11:32 pm

Comment on #25 continued…

About the January 15th solar eclipse he said:

“America and India are not the only places on earth that will suffer the ravages of Eclipse Jagai with Saturn stalled like a million-ton lead weight overhead.”

I haven’t seen much that would qualify as “the ravages” in the US and India, other than a funky economy in the US. Maybe my expectations are too low. =)

“Rioting mass movements that seek to topple third world governments in Africa and Asia will face harsh opposition.”

No rioting mass movements so far. The rising trend seems to be quite opposite. Ivory Coast just established a unity government to accelerate their peace process. Sudanese main parties are working together. People in Niger are happy with the military takeover. South Africa is hosting the World Cup. No riots in much of Asia either.

“Somalia will reach new levels of lawlessness as seen by the suicide bomber that killed three government ministers last week.”

Merely observing an ongoing trend.

“ India can look forward to tribal rebellions…”

There have not been any major rebellions by India’s 50 Scheduled Tribes since the Kuki Uprising in Manipur in 1917. I am not counting the Naxalite Maoist rebellion that has been raging since 1969. What is the margin on the looking forward? If a rebellion occurs anywhere in this year or next year, are we then going to say: “See, he was right!”

“…and the border areas will grow increasingly tense.”

Merely observing an ongoing trend.

“Tantric sadhus will perform black rites and terrorize villages.”

Unverifiable, unless someone undertakes a lengthy study of these practices. India’s biggest problem is not destructive witchcraft, but bogus sadhus and yogis using trickery to cheat simple people out of their money. Thank God there is a rising movement of skeptics in India addressing this issue and exposing these practices.

“Random acts of sabotage will again raise their ugly visage in the ‘free world’ and many police forces will be sent into high alert against clandestine plotters. Governments, informed about the terrible situations at hand will continue to sing soft lullabies to their subservient masses through their deputies in the news media, though the public is buying into their sanitized stories less and less.”

How can anyone take this kind of vagueness serious?

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 27, 2010 @ 10:14 pm

Comment on #25 continued…

This is what he really said about the December 31st lunar eclipse:

“Since it occurs on New Year’s Eve, it is expected that there will be horror stories for revelers at parties-from-hell on January the first.” And “Expect a New Year’s Eve horror story to greet the ‘new year’.”

New Year 2010 was wholly uneventful.

“From the worldview, fighting and wars will be intensified in an atmosphere of increased hostility, and there might be an instance of air piracy or hijacking.”

The obvious thing here is that merely observing an ongoing trend doesn’t require astrological knowledge or ecliptic influences. He does this several times.

Also, “might be” is a safe bet. This time it worked out, although somewhat obscure and almost 2 weeks after the eclipse: on January 12 Chechen rebels hijacked a Russian jet flying from Turkey to Moscow. During the rescue mission 3 died and 100 were saved.

“A big jet may go down. “

“May” is another safe bet. This time it didn’t work out. A total of five air planes went down in January and two so far this month. None were big jets.

“Armed conflicts will spark at higher altitudes, in mountainous regions, such as along the Hindu Kush ranges of Afghanistan and Pakistan.”

Merely observing an ongoing trend. Armed conflicts have been going on there since 2001.

“ Communication networks will be upset as the web goes down here and there.”

Nothing noteworthy in the last two months.

“Disastrous fires, explosions and freak accidents will grab the headlines.”

Only few headlines of average, minor incidents in the last two months.

“Incidents of savage ‘serial killers’ roaming the streets in American cities will increase along with gangland activities.”

Nothing noteworthy in the last two months, and certainly not in the serial killers department.

“Mob violence will rise from anarchy in places like Africa or Indonesia. Wind storms may strike at random. Conflicts involving armed “liberation” movements for places you’ve never heard of will spring to prominence for a short time.”

Nothing noteworthy in the last two months.

As far as predictions go, a marginal 1 out of 11 doesn’t rate very well.

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 27, 2010 @ 10:11 pm

Comment on #25:

Akruranathji,
.

I don’t think Patita Pavana said every eclipse correlates with a nearly contemporaneous world disaster, nor did he remotely suggest that every disaster correlates with an eclipse.

Understood, and I never took it as such. Statistics spanning many decades show that disasters in general and natural disasters in specific tend to be repetitive and fairly well spread over the year. Solar and lunar eclipses follow specific patterns due to the orbits of their respective objects. Yet, timing doesn’t seem to link the two. I then wondered whether it could be the scale of the disaster, but could not find any discernable correlation.

The significance here is not in whether Patita Pavana does or does not claim a one-on-one correlation between disasters and eclipses, but in his seemingly arbitrary linking of cherry-picked disasters with his predictions.
.

He made a prediction that involved two specific eclipses, taking into account other factors and planets, and it did turn out that a huge disaster occurred during the exact time frame he said it would occur. You have to admit at least that much. You might want to argue it was luck, coincidence, or whatever, but you should at least acknowledge that in this case his prediction did prove accurate.

I would do so if, in fact, what you state here was true. I can’t agree on that, so I would have to seriously stretch my imagination. Here’s why.

For both eclipses Patita Pavana didn’t just make one prediction, he made many. Yet, none of these alluded to a massive earthquake at a specific time and location – which would have qualified as accurate in my book. He did not specify any “exact time frame” for his predictions, either. Rather, he’d include selected events occurring weeks before and after the eclipse that offered (even weak) support to his predictions.

We can’t just take the predictions out of context by forgetting the details and generalizing them to the point of “he said something bad would happen somewhere around this time and something bad did happen.”

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 27, 2010 @ 10:05 pm

Comment on #15 continued…

1923 Two eclipses: March 17 and September 10.
09/01/1923 Earthquake, Japan (Kanto): 142,807 dead.

1927 Three eclipses: January 3, June 29, and December 24.
05/22/1927 Earthquake, China: 80,000 dead.

1931 Eclipses in mid-April, mid-October and mid-September.
Yangtze River floods from May to August, China: 145,000 dead.
September to November floods combined: 3,700,000 dead.

1932/33 Two eclipses in each year.
1932 to 1933 Soviet famine: 5,000,000 dead.

1935 Eclipses in early January, late October and late September.
Yangtze River floods from May to August, China: 142,000 dead
05/30/1935 Earthquake, Pakistan: 60,000 dead.

1936 Two eclipses: June 19 and December 13.
1936 Chinese Famine: 5,000,000 dead.

1938 Two eclipses: May 29 and November 21.
06/09/1938 Yellow River flood, China: over 500,000 dead.

1948 Two eclipses: May 9 and November 1.
10/05/1948 Earthquake, Iran: 110,000 dead.

1970 Two eclipses: March 7 and August 31.
11/13/1970 Bhola cyclone, Bangladesh: 500,000 dead.

1975 Two eclipses: May 11 and November 3.
08/08/1975 Banqiao Dam failure, China: 231,000 dead.

1976 Two eclipses: April 29 and October 23.
07/27/1976 Earthquake, China (Tangshan): 242,800 dead.

1991 Two eclipses: January 15 and July 11.
04/29/1991 Cyclone, Bangladesh: 138,000 dead, 10 million homeless.

2004 Two eclipses: April 19 and October 14.
12/26/2004 Earthquake caused tsunami, Indonesia: 297,200 dead.

2005 Two eclipses: April 8 and October 3.
10/08/2005 Earthquake, Pakistan (Kashmir): 87,351 dead.

2008 Two eclipses: February 7 and August 1.
05/12/2008 Earthquake, China (Sichuan): 88,287 dead.

With all due respect, but my conclusion is that there are no discernable links between solar and lunar eclipses and major disasters with high casualty rates, other than those created in the minds of those who are either motivated to unleash proverbial sulfur and brimstone upon their audience, or those who simply have a need to believe.

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 6, 2010 @ 12:01 am

Comment on #15:

“…do you read the newpapers? Like, did you notice anything on Jan 12, two days before eclipse Jagai? Do the words Earthquake ring a bell?”

It’s hard not to notice the Haiti earthquake in the media – much like the 2004 tsunami in Indonesia. However, the claim that this is the direct or indirect result of solar eclipse influence I consider unproven, wishful thinking at best. There were 36 earthquakes globally in 2009, of which 10 were stronger than the Haiti quake. 2009 saw 2 solar eclipses (1 annular and 1 total) and 4 lunar eclipses (3 penumbral and 1 partial). Only 1 of the 36 earthquakes was within a week of a solar eclipse and 2 were within a week of a lunar eclipse. The other 35 came nowhere near. Total death toll for the entire year: about 1,700.

Every year sees between 30 and 50 earthquakes that are all fairly well spread throughout the year, without any kind of statistically provable correlation with solar or lunar eclipses (which follow a pattern). So it can’t be the timing that links the disaster with the eclipse. What is it then? The scale of death and destruction? Do Jagai, Madhai — or whatever you name them — eclipses forebode or cause/instigate only massive casualty and suffering in large disasters beforehand, during the eclipse, or afterwards?

My research doesn’t indicate so. I looked at both solar and lunar eclipses, and major disasters (with a focus on those with a loss of life of over 50,000 in a single event), going back all the way to the late 1800s. So as to not overwhelm the thread, in the output here I ignore the hundreds of earthquakes, floods, famines and epidemics with casualties less than 50,000 (which also show no correlation with eclipses, by the way) and refer to solar eclipses only:

1887 Two eclipses: February 22 and August 19.
Yellow River floods in September and October, China: 900,000–2,000,000 dead.

1908 Three eclipses: January 3, June 28, and December 23.
12/28/1908 Earthquake, Italy: 82,000 dead.

1911 Two eclipses: April and October.
Yangtze River floods from May to August, China; 100,000 dead.

1918/19 Two eclipses in each year.
1918 to 1919 Spanish Flu, Worldwide: over 50,000,000 dead

1920 Two eclipses: May 18 and November 10.
12/16/1920 Earthquake, China (Haiyuan): 235,502 dead.

1921/22 Two eclipses in each year.
1921 to 1922 Russian famine, Ukraine: 5,000,000 dead.

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Feb 5, 2010 @ 11:59 pm

“Thank you ‘Ask Jeeves’ Prabhu,”

No need to be condescending.

“…But our authority is the Bhagavat, not the Wikipedia.”

Neither the book Bhagavat, nor the person Bhagavat is concerned with the origin of the English word “star” or any supposed “Vedic” origin of modern week day naming.

“I’m a Prabhupad man and I blindly and dumbly follow the convictions of my spiritual master.”

Yes, that is clear.

In Krishna’s creation there is a place for all though, regardless of whether they hover near the cognitive and rational end of the spectrum or the emotional and intuitive one — or anywhere in between for that matter. Regardless, we have a long way to go in fulfilling Prabhupada’s desire to reach the intelligent class of men if we keep dabbling in pseudo-astronomy and presenting a marginal version of jyotish, wrought with apocalyptic elements and claims of ancient origins that are nowhere to be found.

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 19, 2010 @ 9:18 pm

“the twenty-eight constellations, and the source of the English word ‘star’”

Although the pre 900 CE Middle and Old English “sterre” and “steorra” are akin to Old Norse “stjarna,” Goth “stairno,” Latin “stella,” Greek “astr,” and Sanskrit “str,” there is no evidence whatsoever that the Sanskrit version is the source of any of them.

“Shrila Prabhupada often pointed out, for example that Sunday came before Monday because, ‘first the Sun then the Moon’ (meaning the Moon is farther from Earth than the Sun. Here is a chart of the Vedic weekdays, which is the origin of the modern concept:”

Origin of the modern concept?

In most European countries the week starts on Monday, not Sunday. There is no worldwide conclusion as to how exactly the names of weekdays have come about or where a week starts. For instance, ancient Celtic and Germanic cultures linked their weekdays to names of gods. The Romans used to have an 8 day week.

There are theories that indicate that the weekdays are named in relation to the brightness of the planets as visible from the Earth with naked eyes and clear night skies, rather than their distance from the Earth. This, however, is not supported by facts. The days of the week go like Sun-Moon-Mars-Mercury-Jupiter-Venus-Saturn (if we take the American system, starting with Sunday). As far as brightness is concerned, the Sun (-26.8) and Moon (-12.7) are followed not by Mars (-2.8), but by Venus (-4.7) and Jupiter (-2.9), in this order. So you’d end up with a week like Sunday-Monday-Friday-Thursday-Tuesday-Wednesday-Saturday…

Other theories link the appearance of planets to hours of the day and extrapolate the sequence of weekdays from the planet that occupies the first hour of the day. Again, there is no conclusive correlation between the order of weekday names and the distance of the planets from the Earth.

And there is certainly no evidence of a “Vedic” system being the origin of the “modern” system.

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 8, 2010 @ 6:03 pm

The debate over Srila Prabhupada’s rising sign

Just as a side note, the reason some astrology programs give time-zone 5 1/2 for Calcutta/Kolkata prior to 1948 is that this city has maintained its own time standard of “Calcutta Time” until 1948: 5 hours, 30 minutes, and 21 seconds in advance of GMT.

Later this became Indian Standard Time, dropping the 21 seconds.

Some programs seem to incorporate the idiosyncracies of DST and separate time standards as it applies to various countries and cities in various times better than others. For astrologers it is wise to check this for any location, as an hour can make a big difference. Europe is especially significant in regards to DST, as its various countries have dealt differently with its implementation (and even re-implementation).

» Posted By WillemV On Jan 5, 2010 @ 10:33 pm

How Will the Forthcoming Eclipses Affect You?

Comment on #26:

“We are discussing astrology. An astrologer posts an elaborate study on eclipse. Rest of the people run out to bash him and astrology or its purpose or whatever it is connected with, diplomatically clarifying their positions and reasons for it. Are you above nature?? You think you chant some 54 rounds and turn the sun around?? What arrogance!!”

Maheswaradasji, with all due respect, but isn’t this judgment a bit far-fetched?

Your premise may rest on the notion that “an elaborate study on eclipse” is being bashed, together with its author, by arrogant people who need to “diplomatically” clarify their motives, but I’m sure that this premise is not shared by everyone – least by me.

I do not know Patita Pavana personally, nor the extent of his jyotish skills, so I have to go by what is presented in his article, which is *not* an “elaborate study on eclipse.” I would expect an elaborate study to be objective, include historical cross-references and source references, and, if meant for public presentation, simple explanations of technical jargon. The article, on the other hand, reads as sensational pop-astrology with a jyotish slant, sauced up with “predictions” so generalized that they can impossibly not come true. One does not have to be “above nature” to see that.

In this way I can predict the following for the coming year:

– 20 airplanes will crash! (because the average is 50 a year)

– More that 100,000 people will be murdered! (because the average is 200,000 a year)

– A hurricane will strike Florida! (because it happens every year)

– Multiple volcano eruptions worldwide! (because the average is 50 a year).

– Ongoing armed conflict in mountainous regions! (like it has been for centuries)

– A significant terrorist attack! (because a 75% chance is worth the gamble)

– Massive forest fires on the US West coast! (because it happens every year)

– Massive flooding in Bangladesh! (because it happens every year)

– Draught and famine in East Africa! (because it has been getting worse since 2006)

– Draught and water shortage in California! (because that has been an ongoing issue since the mid 80s)

Mark my words… ;-)

Just like using pseudo-scientific conspiracy material to “disprove” the moon landings is a disservice to the open dialog of understanding puranic cosmology, presenting jyotish in a sensational pop-astrology fashion is a disservice to the art. It makes devotees come across as cult weirdoes.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 18, 2009 @ 4:17 pm

Comment on #24:

“Incidentally, as predicted by the article—and since it was written a few days back—Mother earth has indeed reacted (and will continue to do so). A volcano in the Philippines has caused the evacuation of entire towns, an air disaster in Russia killed an entire team of sky divers and a wind storm in Fiji has left a swath of death and destruction. And that rock that bloodied the face of the Italian Prime Minister: what an example of Rahu’s terrible handiwork!”

With all due respect prabhuji, but anyone could predict this without astrology. Why? Because these are all repetitive phenomena.

Besides the currently 16 decade-volcanoes that can and/or have shown destructive eruptions, there are about 50 to 60 volcanic eruptions per year all over the globe — 9 in October 2009 alone — that do not show any specific time-correlation with lunar or solar eclipses.

This year, 2009, saw 50 plane crashes worldwide so far, spread fairly evenly over the months, with a total of 1,076 fatalities. Out of those only 2 are within several days after this year’s prenumbral lunar eclipses of February 9 and July 7. The rest does not coincide with the 5 lunar and solar eclipses that have thus far occurred.

Several regions on this planet are prone to repeated atmospheric disturbances. The Caribbean and Mexican Gulf region has a yearly hurricane season. Japan and the Philippines have their typhoon season, the West European coast its North Atlantic storm season, the USA Mid West its tornado season, etc. The destruction that comes with these weather phenomena often does include fatalities. Here, too, however, there is no statistical correlation with lunar or solar eclipses.

If every time a political figure is harassed is Rahu’s handiwork, he must indeed have thousands of hands. Again, you can find instances of this kind of violence throughout the year and on every level. It’s not just the kind that makes world headlines. Not all of the close to 200,000 yearly murders in 83 countries make the headlines, nor do all of the tens of thousands of global yearly suicides.

What I am pointing out here, prabhuji, is the very shaky relation between the sensationalized daily news that you purport to be proof of your “predictions” based on astrology, and the reality of bare facts.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 17, 2009 @ 11:50 pm

Continued…

I find even more safe bets in the “predictions” that follow on things that have been going on throughout the year, also in between eclipses. Nothing here stands out of the ordinary. The examples you give, ranging from Tiger Woods to the Afghan troop surge, also mean little in the context you provide. Celebrity and political scandals are almost at the order of the day. This last troop surge isn’t the first one, either. There have been several night-club fires with high fatality rates worldwide, including in the US (Remember the Station nightclub with 100 dead? February 2003, while 2003 lunar and solar eclipses were only in May and November), as well as stampedes with high fatality rates (Bilaspur, 145 dead of which 30 were children; Jodhpur, 197 dead; Delhi, 5 children died; Rabat, 11 dead; Abidjan, 22 dead. None of these were during or after eclipses.).

I therefore don’t see any value here other than shock value.

“Capricorn is a poor translation by Vedic standards since a makara is not some goat, but is a wondrous creature that is inconceivable by modern so-called ‘intelligence’.”

Capricorn is not a translation. Makara is merely the name of the rashi that happens to correspond with Capricorn in the western zodiac. What exactly a Makara is doesn’t seem to be conceivable by any kind of intelligence so far. The general translation is “sea-monster” and it is often depicted as a fish with an elephant-like head. Curiously, Capricorn doesn’t mean goat, but goat-horned, and was in Babylonian times often depicted as a so-called sea-goat – half goat, half fish.

“Regarding America, it should not be forgotten that this ‘friend of the world’ was founded on war.”

But wouldn’t anyone be hard pressed to name a currently existing nation that wasn’t founded on war or the results of war? Of course, by now you have singled out the US for a demeaning tirade, almost as if you are happy that it is finally going to get what it apparently in your eyes so richly deserves.

If this article was meant to market your jyotish skills and services as an objective practitioner, steeped in soberness and compassion, I humbly suggest you try a different approach. This kind of gloomy pop astrology, with its highly condescending tone, is more befitting the likes of Sylvia Brown, et al.

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 15, 2009 @ 11:17 pm

Patita Pavanaji,

I started reading your article with great interest, but then, with every paragraph, I got more and more of a sense of unsubstantiated doomsday-saying extruding from your observations and conclusions.

First I failed to see the connection between your introductory quote from Srila Prabhupada and the rest of the article. Technically, the darkness before full moons is not a lunar eclipse. As a matter of fact, lunar eclipses always take place on full moon nights. The orbit of the moon crosses the ecliptic twice a month. These crossings are called nodes. There is an ascending and a descending node, which, as I am sure you know well, in jyotish are referred to as Rahu and Ketu respectively. When the full moon occurs in the same position as a node, an eclipse can occur — allowing for two to five eclipses per year. Rahu and Ketu are not physical planets or objects.

Next, I’m stumbling into a plethora of adjectives worthy of Ragnarok. You indicate there will be “horror stories” for “revelers at parties-from-hell” on the first day of 2010, but I am missing in what way these horror stories of party goers will differ from any other given New Year. I am likewise curious as to what sets the disasters that can “erupt at any point during the cycle and for weeks following it” apart from disasters between eclipses, of which there have been many.

Sadly, the rest of your text almost reads like a bad movie script in which you link fairly common phenomena to technical jyotish that is lost to the layman — as if to whet the appetite of the gullible.

According to W. J. Durant there have only been 268 years without war in the last 3,421 years of documented history. So, basically some armed conflict is going on somewhere all the time, with increase and decrease in intensity flowing like waves. The majority of these currently take place in mountainous regions. To “predict” events that are and have been taking place in these realms already is therefore a pretty safe bet.

Continued…

» Posted By WillemV On Dec 15, 2009 @ 11:14 pm

Say NO! to vaccines

Comment on #5:

Krishna dasji,

The issue of objectionable ingredients in vaccines is very valid, but many devotees do not know much about possible alternatives. I have done research on the most common vaccines for diseases that are found in India, the result of which you can find here:

http://kuruvinda.com/India.shtml

MMR really consists of three separate vaccines that are combined: AttenuVax (measles), MumpsVax (mumps) and MeruVax II (rubella)

The first two contain virus strains developed in chick embryo cell cultures, the rubella one contains a virus strain derived from diploid lung fibroblasts (yes, from human embryos and/or foetuses).

Any vaccine containing WI-38 and MRC-5 contains cells of aborted embryos and/or foetuses. These are currently:

Rubella: Meruvax II (Merck)
Rubella: Rudivax (Sanofi Pasteur)
Rubella: Ervevax (GlaxoSmithKline)

Rubella, Mumps: M-R-VAX (Merck)
Rubella, Mumps: Rudi-Rouvax (AVP)
Rubella, Mumps: Biavax II (Merck)

Rubella, Mumps, Measles: M-M-R II (Merck)
Rubella, Mumps, Measles: R.O.R., Trimovax (Sanofi Pasteur)
Rubella, Mumps, Measles: Priorix (GlaxoSmithKline)

Hep A: VAQTA (Merck)
Hep A: HAVRIX (GlaxoSmithKline)

Chicken Pox: Varivax (Merck)

Poliomylitis: Poliovax (Aventis-Pasteur)

Rabies: Imovax (Aventis Pasteur)

Smallpox: AC AM 1000 (Acambis)

Now, whenever and wherever possible, I would definitely recommend to proceed with caution and try to find alternatives. However, when it comes to a life or death situation (Rabies, Smallpox) please don’t make the wrong choice, solely based on spiritual fanaticism. This becomes especially true for those who don’t really care about white sugar, leather shoes, gasoline, shellac, chicken manure, and so many more other things that may contain questionable ingredients to begin with.

Cheers!

» Posted By WillemV On Aug 11, 2009 @ 6:43 pm

Comment on #1:

“Why should devotees listen to crackpots? Is there something about being a devotee that makes us particularly susceptible to outrageous conspiracy theories? ”

Akruranathji, you’ve done it. I am rolling on the floor here. =)

Man, you’d almost think that this one would qualify for inclusion in the scriptures of the next manvantara, wouldn’t it?

On a more serious note, one would wonder whether the answer to your questions on a superfical level would have to be a resounding “yes.” I say superficial, because on deeper levels, beyond crackpot-loka, devotion to the Lord is a whole different world. Yet, on that superficial level it is very easy to meet devotees who are into all kinds of unrealistic and weird phenomena, stories and practices. It is some kind of naivité-driven gullability that in my (and only my) opinion (which is not written in stone) is very, very common among devotees.

Now, that in itself is not bad or evil, or in any other way a stain on the character of the person. What worries me, though, is that often the people who get into the realm of Crackpottia tend to do so with blinders on, without checking into the basics and working behind the potions, talismans, or conspiracies they embrace. The whole thread about the moon landings on this site shows vivid examples of this.

It is not limited to conspiracy stuff, though, even homeopathy, reiki, tachyon power, and anything “Ayur-vedic” a.o. is often readily accepted without question. I have seen it over and over and over again (and please don’t get on me about these things unless you really know what you are talking about).

» Posted By WillemV On Aug 11, 2009 @ 6:07 pm

Srila Prabhupada was not alone to claim the monlanding was a hoax

Comment on #156-158

I mentioned earlier that I have been pushing the limits of this discussion, because I prefer to keep it on topic. Within that scope many of the things we have recently brought up fit only marginally.

I am not surprised that due to the loaded nature of the topic the discussion has a strong tendency to change from “usage of silly conspiracy theory arguments” to “science versus religion.” Yet, for me the former is more important than the latter, because it cannot but negatively impact the credibility of devotees when played out in public. This has been my point all along.

It is obvious that science doesn’t have all the answers, especially concerning anything metaphysical, despite claims of superior methodologies. It would be more accurate to say that science has progressive answers in specific areas of research only. Therefore it can never know beyond the point of research it has reached. I find this a realistic way of looking at science; one I use myself. Science is not God. It is prone to human weaknesses like failure, politics, greed, etc. Keeping this in mind, one can discern its strength and potential, and put those to good use.

”Okay, do tell. Please help explain for me and anyone else who hears you what the difference is. Maybe this will clear the way for many struggling with these concepts.”

In Mysteries of the Sacred Universe Sadaputaji explains how the Bhagavata cosmology can be interpreted in three ways: (1) geographically as a projection of the Himalayan region, (2) astronomically as a partial projection of the solar system, and (3) metaphysically as a higher dimensional perspective. I suggest you get a copy of this book to get a better idea of the complexity of Puranic cosmology.

”I am not sure that “analah” or fire refers to plasma state and not to energy in its various forms (we have fire in our body, but not superheated matter), and “vayuh” or air sometimes seems to include subtle prana or “chi” that appears different from matter in a gaseous state.”

Yes, as I mentioned, according to context Sanskrit words may differ in meaning. In the context of ayurveda fire and air mean something different than in the context of vaisesika, dhanur, vastu, etc.

”I would request you to freely elaborate in as much detail as possible the solution to some of these challenges.”

I have to decline your kind request for personal reasons.

» Posted By WillemV On Oct 29, 2009 @ 2:00 pm

Comment on #150 continued:

”Sataputa Prabhu did not accept the moon landing and has explained why and I have quoted him in privious posts. I understand you disagree with him.And I will not try to discourage you in that way.”

You are wrong, prabhuji. In his book Vedic Cosmology, as quoted by you, he states: “we have no definite evidence that settles it one way or another.” He then makes a suggestion about the possibility of dishonesty based on a picture from a book, pointing to the absence of markings beneath the lunar lander’s engine: “One would think that its exhaust would have left some recognizable streaks or markings on the soft lunar soil.”

The book was first published in 1989, long before the internet and easy access to high resolution scans of many of the Apollo images that do show definite streaks and markings:

http://kuruvinda.com/img/apollo11/AS11-40-5921HR.jpg

Besides the very low thrust of less than 1.3 pounds per square inch before engine shut-off at 6 feet above the surface, the lander did not descend vertically. The actual site it landed at was picked out by the astronauts themselves as they descended at an angle, traveling across the landscape and skidding to a stop. Consequently the lander did not hover directly above its final landing site long enough to blast a crater into solid bedrock. That would anyway have been impossible in an airless environment, where the thrust isn’t directed in a downward column, but disperses evenly in all directions. In addition, regolith (moon dust) consists of very jagged particles that interlock and resist to pressure.

”However science has also stated that the human race is only 10.000 years old, this is what I also learned in school many years ago, but now they have totaly changed their view points .”

Anthropology is irrelevant to the issue.

» Posted By WillemV On Oct 25, 2009 @ 4:53 pm

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