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"I do not want to be a woman in varnashrama"

So, if a woman is very, very highly intellectual by qualification, can she be a brahmana, because she will understand Brahman? 

No. Because she doesn’t get the sacred thread. But she can still worship Krsna and in a sense be better than a brahmana who is a nondevotee.

Is Devahuti also of papa-yoni class? How about Mother Yasoda? 

Yes in that they took birth in women’s bodies; that’s what our scriptures say. But we don’t go around calling them or women papa yoni, that would be disrespectful. Queen Kunti and Sati, did not think themselves above this (see SB 4.4.17 and 1.6.18, 1.8.22).

SB 6.3.13 answers this. Here are some excerpts:

“In this material world, everyone is conditioned, regardless of who he is” ie. human or demigod, animal or plant. Living entities in human bodies are “systematically controlled by the Vedic injunctions in terms of the divisions of varna and asrama. A human being is expected to follow the rules and regulations of varna and asrama; otherwise he cannot escape punishment by Yamaraja. “

“The divisions of varna and asrama are necessary to insure the proper execution of duties and peaceful existence for everyone, but everyone is directed to worship the Supreme Lord, who is all-pervading”

“therefore if one follows the Vedic injunctions by worshiping the Supreme Lord according to one’s ability, his life will be perfect. “

“ The varṇāśrama institution offers the perfect process for making one eligible to return home, back to Godhead, because the aim of every varṇa and āśrama is to please the Supreme Lord. SB 1.2.13“

How can a sudra-like woman give birth to a brahmana or a king? That defies logic and practical experience.

Woman is the field and the seed is given by the father.

The very reason why pratiloma and anuloma marriages are considered mixed is because the woman retains the varna of her birth and does not take on the varna of her husband.

So now you are saying a woman’s varna is determined by birth?

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 23.07.2011 @ 15:17

“So the Vedic, according to the Vedic system, there is no equal right of the man and woman. The woman is always subordinate. That is the Manu-samhita law. Na stri svatantryam arhati. A woman does not require, does not deserve, to get independence. That is good for them. If the woman remains under the protection—in young age under father, when he (she) is child; when he (she) is young, under the protection of husband; and when she is old, under the protection of elderly children—that is their very safe position.” 3.26.8 Lecture, December 20, 1974

Even Queen Kunti and Lord Siva’s wife, Sati, did not think themselves above this law (see SB 4.4.17 and 1.6.18, 1.8.22).

Our sastra does restrict women’s expression of their individuality in a way similar to parents restricting and guiding a child. We don’t give unlimited freedom to children because they would tend to “manifest their natural tendency for gross selfishness” in the same way a woman would do if given independence (6.12.42). Just because one is subordinate doesn’t mean s/he loses individuality as a spirit soul. One’s material circumstance is not an impediment to devotional service. See SB 1.7.36-37 Lecture Sept. 29, 1976, Vrindavana.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 14.07.2011 @ 03:39

Vrndavanlila wrote:

“There are several conversations by Srila Prabhupada, in which he considered protected status of a woman and management service of a woman to be compatible.”

The idea is that women manage “internally” and men manage “externally”. Otherwise, wheneven spiritually advanced women manage externally and independently, it is artificial and socially disruptive.

“What difference does it make if one is treated as a king or a beggar, a brahmana or a sudra, a man or a woman in the cleansing process as long as the result remains the same, as envisioned by Srila Prabhupada?”

This is a very nice realization.

[BG 4.13]
[According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me. And although I am the creator of this system, you should know that I am yet the nondoer, being unchangeable.]

It needs to be clarified that women are not considered independent members of these four divisions.

BG 18.47]
“It is better to engage in one’s own occupation, even though one may perform it imperfectly, than to accept another’s occupation and perform it perfectly. Duties prescribed according to one’s nature are never affected by sinful reactions.” We are here to prepare ourselves to go back home and not waste our human birth in asserting our “right”. This birth is meant for higher purpose rather than settling the gender equation ‘right’.

Yes, Vrindavanlila’s conclusion is very nice, that a wife serves her husband as per stri dharma, and her husband takes the lead in the family unit. If the husband is a brahmana, the wife is a brahmani. If the husband takes vanaprastha, the wife follows him, etc. If the husband is the Supreme Lord, Nityananda, the wife (ie. Jahnava Devi) can become acarya and continue to instruct her husband’s disciples after his departure.

The idea that women have independent varna and asrama is false and as dangerous to our movement’s implementation of varnasrama as Kirtanananda’s idea that women can be given sannyasa.

Is it repression to be a chaste wife, remain dependant on male authority, and follow stri dharma? In some ways yes, but then so is rising early and following the practices of bhakti yoga. It is evil to change the philosophy to suit our inability to follow scriptural injunctions.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 13.07.2011 @ 14:55

My Brief Against Feminism

The SAC continues:

““Here is a suggestion in relation to the above point: The bodily concept of life is transcended, along with the modes of nature, at the stage of bhava-bhakti. But at the level of nishtha the residual anarthas are only remnants that not longer obstruct one’s progress (See Madhurya-kadambini, chapter 4). Therefore, we recommend that at least the symptoms of nishtha should be seen in diksa-guru candidates, whether male or female.“

A woman, even if on the level of nishtha, is never advised to give up her occupational duty. She continues to identify herself in relation to her husband whose social position she doesn’t overstep.

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura sings:

namasraya kari’ yatane tumi, thakaha apana kaje.

“Everyone is thus advised to seek shelter in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa maha-mantra and remain engaged in his own occupational duty.” SB 10.6.3

“Take shelter of hari-nama and remain in your own profession.” Jan 20/77 conversation

“In whatever occupation you are, remain there. There is no need of changing.” RC Varnasrama System Must Be Introduced — February 14, 1977, Mayapura

The conclusion of the SAC, “that if a female devotee is actually advanced, above the bodily platform, she may assume the post of a spiritual master” should have been “that if a female devotee is actually advanced, above the bodily platform, she may assume the post of initiating spiritual master”. But they cannot make that claim. They want us to think that because there is ample evidence that a woman (or child) can be siksa guru therefore she can be diksa guru.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 13.07.2011 @ 15:46

continued…

By omitting Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion, the SAC arrives at a faulty conclusion based on an incomplete understanding of his purport:

“When the bodily concept of life vanishes, the material qualities of one’s lower nature are transcended. The conclusion must be, therefore, that if a female devotee is actually advanced, above the bodily platform, she may assume the post of a spiritual master.”

Srila Prabhupada never presented the conclusion that a woman can assume the post of initiating spiritual master. The occupational duty of a woman, her stri dharma, is always in relation her husband and family. If her husband is a brahmana, she is a brahmani, not otherwise. Through her prescribed service she becomes Krsna conscious. It is not material if it is done for Krsna. This is stated in numerous places in the Gita.

If a woman stops serving her husband, neglects her womanly occupational duty and imitates a brahmana man’s occupational duty, Krsna will not be pleased and the woman will not be Krsna conscious. The same can be said of a husband who neglects his duty. We have seen in the past, men who gave up being grhastha and took sannyasa, abandoning their young wives and children. This was irresponsible and socially disruptive and in many case, the men fell down from sannyasa.

As we learn from Bhagavad-gita 3.20:

“Even kings like Janaka and others attained the perfectional stage by performance of prescribed duties. Therefore, just for the sake of educating the people in general, you should perform your work.”

By allowing women to work as initiating spiritual masters, representatives of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, we will be wrongly educating the people in general. The only female acarya Prabhupada mentions is Jahnava Devi however she was the wife of the Supreme Personality of Godhead! We cannot allow women to imitate her position (without being wives of Acaryas) because it defies Vaishnava scripture and Vaishnava tradition.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 13.07.2011 @ 15:43

The SAC writes, quoting SB 6.18.42:

“A woman’s nature has been particularly well studied by Kasyapa Muni. Women are self-interested by nature, and therefore they should be protected by all means so that their natural inclination to be too self-interested will not be manifested. Women need to be protected by men. A woman should be cared for by her father in her childhood, by her husband in her youth and by her grown sons in her old age. This is the injunction of Manu, who says that a woman should not be given independence at any stage. Women must be cared for so that they will not be free to manifest their natural tendency for gross selfishness. There have been many cases, even in the present day, in which women have killed their husbands to take advantage of their insurance policies. This is not a criticism of women but a practical study of their nature.”

The SAC’s comments on the above:

“Women on the bodily platform are selfish and should therefore be protected not only from lusty male predators but from their own lower natures as well. This is clear. The rest of the purport below, however, makes an important distinction.

“Such natural instincts of a woman or a man are manifested only in the bodily conception of life. When either a man or a woman is advanced in spiritual consciousness, the bodily conception of life practically vanishes.”
(Bhag. 6.18.42 purport)

It is shocking that the SAC state “The rest of the purport below, however, makes an important distinction”, yet they only give PART of the rest of the purport, omitting an entire paragraph and the following very important conclusion:

“A man should be trained to be a first-class devotee of Lord Kṛṣṇa, and a woman should be trained to be a very chaste follower of her husband. That will make the lives of both of them happy.”

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 13.07.2011 @ 15:38

In Text 66 I gave a reference from Rebecca Manring. This was made with respect to Virabhadra:

“After the funeral celebrations Advaita takes his group back to Shantipur. He is noticeably depressed, as is the rest of the community, after the loss of two of their leaders. Caitanya’s mother and wife have gone into such deep seclusion that no one ever sees more than their feet.

Soon afterward Advaita learns that Nityananda’s son Virabhadra is on his way to him, hoping to receive mantra initiation. Advaita refuses, saying he must be initiated by his own people, and sends him back to his mother Jahnava. Jahnava hears this and sends for a holy man to perform the initiation. This is curious, because back in chapter 15 we saw Sita confer initiation, and yet Jahnava, who on the surface seems to be her social and sectarian equivalent, cannot or perhaps will not. Isana thus suggest that Jahnava did not routinely bestow mantra (or any other) initiation, and Sita then remains (at least by implication) the only woman in the movement, at least in its second generation to do so.” (Reconstructing Tradition p .188) (Manring’s note: This is probably not an accurate representation. Nityananda’s school presents Jahnava in the same way that Advaita’s presents Sita after their respective husbands’ deaths)

Again, Srila Prabhupada has instructed us that the followers of Jahnava “ are counted within the list of Sri Nityananda Prabhu’s devotees”. We are not Sakta worshippers after all.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 10.07.2011 @ 14:24

Comments on the SAC Paper cont…

3. “Yadunandana Acarya’s wife, Laksmi, was a very humble and submissive lady. She had two beautiful daughters named Srimati and Narayani. By the arrangement of Sri Isvari (Jahnava Devi), these two girls became the fortunate wives of Viracandra Prabhu. On the day of the wedding, Yadunandana took initiation from Viracandra, and Sri Jahnava happily accepted Srimati and Narayani as her disciples.” (Bhakti-ratnakara, ch. 13)
4. She is also confirmed as a diksa-guru both in the Gaudiya-vaisnava abhidhana (pg. 1246-47) and in the Prema-vilasa of Nityananda Dasa (vilasas 15 & 20).”

3. Yadunandana took initiation from Virabhadra on the day of Virabhadra married Srimati and Narayani and on the wedding day, he initiated their father, Yadunandana. It does not say, however, that Jahnava initiated Srimati and Narayani.

4. Again, as Srila Prabhupada tells us, Jahnava’s followers “are counted within the list of Sri Nityananda Prabhu’s devotees”. Jahnava-devi was accepted as acarya, “but she did not declare”. She is a representative of her husband, the “original spiritual master”, Lord Nityananda and she continued his legacy after his departure from this world.

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 09.07.2011 @ 15:28

From the SAC re. Jahnava Devi:
1. Jahnava Thakurani - The wife of Nityananda Prabhu. Jahnava Thakurani became one of the greatest leaders of our tradition in its second generation. Virabhadra and Ramacandra, the sons (biological and adopted respectively) of Nityananda Prabhu, were two of the most famous among her initiated disciples.
2. “Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura writes in his Anubhanya, ‘Virabhadra Gosaii was the direct son of Srila Nityananda Prabhu and a disciple of Jahnava Devi.’” (Caitanya-caritamrta Adi-lila 11.8 purport)
3. “Yadunandana Acarya’s wife, Laksmi, was a very humble and submissive lady. She had two beautiful daughters named Srimati and Narayani. By the arrangement of Sri Isvari (Jahnava Devi), these two girls became the fortunate wives of Viracandra Prabhu. On the day of the wedding, Yadunandana took initiation from Viracandra, and Sri Jahnava happily accepted Srimati and Narayani as her disciples.” (Bhakti-ratnakara, ch. 13)
4. She is also confirmed as a diksa-guru both in the Gaudiya-vaisnava abhidhana (pg. 1246-47) and in the Prema-vilasa of Nityananda Dasa (vilasas 15 & 20).”

Comments:
1. Where does this information come from, that Virabhadra and Ramacandra were initiated disciples of Jahnava Devi?

2. Being a disciple of Jahnava Devi does not necessarily mean she gave diksa. She is the wife of Lord Nityananda, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and her followers “ are counted within the list of Sri Nityananda Prabhu’s devotees.” (CC. Adi 11.21), this includes Virabhadra, Nityananda dasa and Jnana Dasa. Ramacandra is said to be the disciple of Virabhadra (see CC Adi 11.8).

There is a reference from Rebecca Manring stating that “Jahnava did not routinely bestow mantra (or any other) initiation” because, according to Isana dasa in Advaita Prakasa, Jahnava “sends for a holy man to perform the initiation” (Reconstructing Tradition).

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 09.07.2011 @ 15:27

CC Adi Lila 12.59
Nandini, Kamadeva, Caitanya dasa, Durlabha Visvasa and Vanamali dasa were the tenth, eleventh, twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth branches of Sri Advaita Acarya.

Were these the same Nandini and Kamadeva that, according to Nityananda Dasa in Prema-vilasa, Sita devi rejected from the group of Advaita’s disciples?

Comment Posted By sitadasi On 09.07.2011 @ 14:22