Understanding the marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) and the nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha terminology

29 Comments to “ Understanding the marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) and the nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha terminology”

1. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 5, 2010 at 3:29 pm

   Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.

   The Lord is absolute, His nature is absolute and therefore everything He says is absolute. When a marginal living being are in a conditioned state (nitya-baddha) that doesn’t take away their eternal absolute nature as a nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna who is forever fixed within the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka: the rebellious marginal living entity simply becomes overshadowed with the concept of past, present and future instigated by free-will and choiceputting them out of sync with the ‘eternal presents’ of Goloka

   As a result, they have now adopted the relative perception of existence that places them within the mahat-tattva’s bodily vessels, which are all the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. As a result of this choice, the marginal living entity is no longer ‘aware’ of Goloka or their nitya-siddha body.

   As in our case in the material world, we are presently ‘eternally conditioned’ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the ‘awareness’ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as. And when again we achieve liberation from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotee, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming ‘aware’ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we wake up from the MATERIAL DREAM.

   In the Vaikuntha/Goloka-Vrndavana realm the ecstasy of loving devotion between Krishna and His devotees are always forever expanding and increasing in a mood of reciprocation however, the nitya-siddha devotees are totally selfless and are only interested in serving unconditionally. This is also due to the marginal living entities choosing to be always ‘aware’ of their nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious selfless perpetual body and continuously using their free-will to increase and expand their selfless loving devotion to Krishna.

   As a result Krishna reciprocates and Goloka is therefore ever expanding. That means that what is now the topmost experience of loving devotion is overwhelmed by an even higher experience of love for Krishna and His devotees and again by a further overwhelming loving selfless devotion, this process is endlessly going on within the ‘eternal presents’ of Goloka
2. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 5, 2010 at 3:39 pm

   However, no-matter what devotional ‘rasa’ one is in, in Goloka or Vaikuntha, the act of free will also allows one to foolishly choose to ‘forget Goloka’ and the ‘nitya-siddha body’ they eternally are if they desire. That choice must always be there at any ‘instant’ in Goloka if there is to be genuine love. Srila Prabhupada tells us that fortunately less than 10% of marginal living entities make that dreaded choice to ‘sub-consciously’ leave Goloka or Vaikuntha.

   When this choice happens, the ‘AWARENESS’ of the marginal living entities nitya-siddha body is forgotten and ‘transformed’ to only being ‘AWARE’ of their restricted secondary nitya-baddha consciousness that can only find refuge or shelter within the mahat-tattva (material creation) bodily creations of Maha-Vishnu.

   So the nitya-siddha full Krishna conscious body (svarupa) and nitya-baddha sub-consciousness are NOT separate marginal living entities as some believe, they are in fact different dispositions of the one individual marginal living entity.

   Although we think of progress in terms of past, present and future in the material world it is not of the same nature as in the Goloka. Like the seasons are all simultaneously existing within the Goloka and still Krishna and His devotees can enter them in an ever-expanding progression. The ‘eternal present’ means one is so absorbed in loving selfless service to Krishna that one neither experiences the passing of time nor the impermanence and decay of a temporary bodily vessel as found in the material creation.

   What is possible in the Goloka is endless and full of marvel, revelation and keenness and way beyond the ordinary relativity of the conditioned side of the marginal living entities nitya-baddha sub-conscious state. The events and dealings within the Goloka are truly within the unique nature of the absolute known as the ‘eternal present’.

   Some have clearly misunderstood the marginal living entities being jiva-tattva (tatastha-s’akti) in Goloka and the mahat-tattva. When we talk of fall down from Goloka, it will always be a touchy subject because some will always believe once in the Goloka pastimes of Lord Krishna, one never falls down. The fact is in most cases they don’t.
3. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 5, 2010 at 4:07 pm

   Some living entities NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka because they are not marginal like us; these billions upon billions of Living entities are not like us (jiva-tattva [tatastha-s’akti] or marginal living entities) they are all Vishnu tattva. They are everywhere in Goloka and Vaikuntha, some as Gopis, Cow heard boys, Village elders or residents etc. The Caitanya Caritamrita explains this further, so many of Lord Caitanya’s associates are all Vishnu-tattva. There are Vishnu-tattvas who have manifested many of their unique personalities at the same time during Lord Caitanya’s lila on this planet.

   Jai Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
4. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 10, 2010 at 3:29 pm

   Srila Prabhupada – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha” Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

   Srila Prabhupada – “Nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha, krpa-siddha — there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

   Nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are two characteristics of each individual marginal living entity; they are not separate marginal beings as some schools of thought believe. Lord Krishna states that our constitutional nature is that all marginal living beings are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that ‘conditioned’ souls have never been ‘unconditioned’ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.

   Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha).
   (Bhagavad-gita As It Is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)

   Also Yasomatinandana dasa once asked Srila Prabhupada – “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” I think there is in the Bible. Is it not? So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 Melbourne, May 20, 1975

   Hari bol. Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
5. pustakrishna says :

   Feb 14, 2010 at 5:33 pm

   His Grace Gauragopala is delving into the deep philosophical basis of reality that leads one to make the profound choices necessary to awaken the sleeping jiva atma. One thing I wanted to point out, as it will help with the struggle over understanding the position of the “body”, mundane or spiritual. As many times Srila Prabhupad emphasized, “body means senses”. When the tendency to “”exploit independently of Krishna is present, then by Krishna’s ultimate determination, the jiva soul receives a body with particular type of senses to exploit matter, ultimately a frustrating option.

   On the other hand, when through the engagement in “dedication” to Krishna’s service and the service of His devotees, Krishna provides a suitable body to fulfill that service to Him. Hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam…The senses, especially spiritual senses, are part and parcel of Krishna’s senses, just as the jiva souls (mamaivamso jiva loke) are part and parcel of Sri Krishna. Krishna is the Supreme Enjoyer and His loving ecstatic ways are ever-expanding. The jiva souls are part of that expansion, and rasa is his means of enjoying that expansion unlimitedly. The key: the body is a manifestation of the particular senses that one has for either exploitation or dedication.

   Regarding the “place or situation of the jiva soul”, it is interesting to note that there has been an ongoing debate over this issue within ISKCON philosophers since the beginning. Srila Prabhupad is always giving us hope. When the jiva soul is swept up into the pleasurable lila of Krishna, Krishna reciprocating in wonderful and loving ways with the jiva soul. the jiva soul is awakened to their genuine identity and dharma (function). The overflowing cup of joy erases memory of material connection, hence one is nitya-siddha, re-situated in connection with Krishna. Where the jiva soul comes from is of course very interesting. I have commented before on this with reference to the Sri Brahma Samhita which seems to suggest that the conditioned souls dwell within the Brahmajyoti (but still maintaining their individual integrity), forgetful of their higher function of loving service to Krishna. When they re-enter their eternal function of service, grace of Sri Guru Vaishnava, then they approach that place, where as Krishna says, having gone there one never returns again. This concept may help us to understand the question: How could we ever leave Krishna in the first place? Pusta Krishna das
6. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 17, 2010 at 6:19 pm

   PustaKrishna dasa – “Where the jiva soul comes from is of course very interesting. I have commented before on this with reference to the Sri Brahma Samhita which seems to suggest that the conditioned souls dwell within the Brahmajyoti (but still maintaining their individual integrity), forgetful of their higher function of loving service to Krishna”.

   Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition”. – Letter, June 13, 1970.

   From my understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, the dormant aspect of the Brahmajyoti, where souls are in an individual slumber, is also a fallen state that one has entered previously from the mahat-tattva (material creation) Therefore no souls ‘originate’ from the dormant characteristic of the Brahmajyoti, that is not possible because ALL living entities originate directly from the pastimes of Lord Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana.

   The technical term for the jiva-soul that enters the mahat-tattva and the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the baddha-jiva (The secondary condition of the marginal living entity, the original condition is nitya-siddha in Goloka) The baddha-jiva state is a dreamless dream or inactive condition of consciousness that only exists while the baddha-jiva is in the impersonal Brahmajyoti that is also a temporary condition of consciousness.

   I’m aware how some schools of thought incorrectly claim that the some jiva-souls originally emanate from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which, they claim, is growing with a constant march of new jiva-souls. They further incorrectly claim that within the dormant characteristics of the Brahmajyoti, the immovability of these inactive jiva-souls is ‘somehow’ disturbed and movement begins. They then claim that from non-differentiation, separation begins. From a bare expanse of standardized consciousness, individual conscious components grow. Srila Prabhupada rejected the nonsense idea that souls ‘originate’ from the Brahmajyoti from a dormant state of consciousness.

   To start with, the jiva souls are never created because they have always been. Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishna’s pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
7. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 17, 2010 at 7:04 pm

   Every marginal living entity is therefore nitya-siddha however, some think or dream, due to free will and choice, they are not in Goloka but in the material creation and paradoxically they are because of where their ‘awareness’ of themselves is now placed. This dream-state in the material creation is the nitya-baddha feature of the marginal living entity.

   Srila Prabhupada – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

   Srila Prabhupada – “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

   It is therefore incorrect to suggest the jiva soul ‘originates’ from the dormant feature of the Brahmajyoti according to Srila Prabhupada.

   Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

   Srila Prabhupada – “So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. Germany, June 22, 1974

   Srila Prabhupada– “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” Original Hare Krsna album

   Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur – “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

   Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel”

   Acyutananda – “But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there (Vaikuntha), he never returns.”

   Srila Prabhupada– “But if he likes, he can return
8. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 17, 2010 at 7:17 pm

   Acyutananda – “He can return (from Vaikuntha)”.

   Srila Prabhupada– “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown”. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976,

   The following Conversation took place in Los Angeles, June 23, 1975 between Srila Prabhupada and Dr. John Mize

   Dr. John Mize – “Did all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, they’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “No, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall down”.

   Dr. John Mize – “So we’re among the 10%.

   Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there are some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall down”.

   Dr. John Mize – “Does Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Krishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscient”.

   Dr. John Mize – “Are more souls falling all the time?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Not all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone does not like to misuse their independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, “Where is the criminal? You are constructing…” Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendency”.

   Dr. John Mize – “The origin of that tendency is…?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Yes”.

   Dr. John Mize – “From where does that tendency come?”
9. Gauragopala dasa says :

   Feb 17, 2010 at 7:23 pm

   Srila Prabhupada – “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathä kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.”

   Devotee – “Because Krishna is independent, therefore the part and parcels…”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. Part and parcel must have a little portion of independence. Qualitatively, part and parcel means… Just like you take a drop of water from the sea. The, all the chemical composition is there in the drop. So Krishna is fully independent. So we living entities we are drop. Still, the independence quality is there in minute quantity”. Los Angeles, June 23, 1975

   The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.

   Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.

   Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality…”

   Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”

   Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer”.

   Srila Prabhupada – “What can be done?”
10. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 17, 2010 at 7:38 pm

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are son of God—God has got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”.

    Srila Prabhupada – “If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Beginning from Lord Brahma down to the worms in the stool, gradually, according to your work, according to your desire, you manufacture your different types of body and enjoy and suffer. That’s all. That is explained. Prakåti-stho hi bhuìkte prakåti-jän guëän. And as soon as you, entangled in different types of punishment, not enjoyment but punishment”.

    Srila Prabhupada – “You will find in this practical experience. Suppose a boy is very rich man’s son. But still, he thinks, “Why shall I live under the rules and regulations of my father? Let me go out. I shall enjoy life freely.” Freely, what freedom?”

    Srila Prabhupada – “You are already rich man’s son. You can enjoy the property of your very, very rich powerful father, and what independence you will enjoy? This is criminality. This is criminality. We are sons of God, part and parcels of God, and God means almighty. So we have got almighty father.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Leaving His place, I have come to this material world to enjoy independently. That is criminality. And we are suffering. That is explained here: prakåti-stha, “being placed in this material world,” puruña, bhuìkte prakåti-jän guëän, “He is enjoying, but enjoying the quality of the modes of material nature.” Bg. lecture, Melbourne, June 25, 1974

    Srila Prabhupada – “Eternally conditioned? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). We each can simply be servitor; that is our natural position. As soon as we give up this position to be subordinate, to be predominated by the Supreme Lord, then we are bewildered. We are thrown to the control of this material nature, and according to our work we get different bodies. There are 8,400,000 forms of bodies and we get one body after another” Bhäg. lecture, Mayapur, June 2
11. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 18, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    From this discussion it is important to try and understand that ALL marginal living entities ‘originally’ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniqueness’ due to the ‘eternal presents’ that is Krishna Consciousness.

    This means the marginal living entity is forever fresh and youthful AS their nitya-siddha body. Such a spiritual svarupa body is ‘eternally’ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishna’s as Srila Prabhupada has explained however, ones rasa with Krishna can be different due to free will and choice that is meant to forever expand ones loving service to beautiful Radha and Krishna. On the other hand, such free will also gives the ‘marginal’ living entity the choice to serve Krishna or their own self interest and this is why the jiva-tattva is called marginal.

    What makes things puzzling to several is that some (less then 10%) of marginal living entities make the choice to appear as their inferior baddha-jiva sub-conscious condition in the material creation. The nitya-baddha state is activated as a result of miss using their free will, they therefore can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to almost be an eternity!

    This means a time will come, due to the temporary nature of the mahat-tattva, that many baddha-jiva will enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation or the impersonal Brahmajyoti as long as they maintain their mistaken desires that that keep their ‘awareness’ absorbed in their baddha-jiva lower self. This journey of the baddha-jiva into a dreamless dormant condition only happens if they are not qualified to bring back their ‘full potential awareness’ of being nitya-siddha in Goloka.

    In this way the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious dream condition originating as a breakaway ‘awareness’ from the marginal living entity in Goloka. Therefore it is only the inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily form in Goloka).

    This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through temporary material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva with subtle and gross material containers or bodies of the mahat-tattva.
12. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 18, 2010 at 2:17 pm

    Srila Prabhupada – “In His form as Karanodakasayi Vishnu the Lord impregnates material nature by His glance. The transcendental molecules of that glance are particles of spirit (baddha-jivas), or spiritual atoms, which appear in different species of life according to the seeds of their individual karma from the previous cosmic manifestation”. Caitanya Caritamrta Ādi 5.69

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because he (The baddha-jiva) falls down from Brahma-sayujya (impersonal liberated condition), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972

    The seeds of their individual karma from the previous cosmic manifestation are significant to this comment from Srila Prabhupada because it means one is caught up in the material dream creation of Maha-Vishnu over and over again within unlimited manifestations of the maha-tattva creation.

    Such a conditioned state does not change the fact that ‘originally’ before first appearing in the maha-tattva within subtle and gross perishable vessels as nitya-baddha, and then eventually becoming fed up with such temporary bodies and therefore entering the Vraja River or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, they were ALL originally with Krishna as nitya-siddha in Goloka-Vrndavana.
13. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 18, 2010 at 2:19 pm

    Srila Prabhupada – “Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya (Impersonal liberated state in the impersonal Brahmajyoti) but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972 .

    Srila Prabhupada – “This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya’s clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.

    Jai Srila Prabhupada, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
14. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 19, 2010 at 12:59 pm

    What does Srila Prabhupada mean by his following comment? -“Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila–both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.

    From other comments from Srila Prabhupada, we can understand that the above comment ONLY refers to where we have previously come from, was is it from Krishna-lila or from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya)? What is meant here is the Brahmasayujya state of the baddha-jiva was attained either in this mahat-tattva (material creation) or from a previous one after much austerity to become totally inactively free from gross and subtle material bodies and therefore attaining a dreamless dream state of the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

    Because this condition of merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti is also temporary, the baddha-jiva will eventually AGAIN fall and begin their material embodied existence? This what Srila Prabhupada is referring to when he says, “Brahmasayujya may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery”.

    Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that we can ‘originate’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as some claim, he is not saying that, he is only referring to our present status which is in some previous birth in the material creation that we may have fallen out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti inactive consciousness (Brahmasayujya), that was previously attained from the material creation after difficult austerity. Or we may have never been to the impersonal Brahmajyoti because we had previously, some millions of years agio, come down directly from Goloka as nitya-baddha.

    As far as our ‘origin’ is concerned, Srila Prabhupada has previously answered that very clearly. Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.”Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973

    He rejected the idea we ‘originated’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya) and even the Body of Maha-Vishnu who plants the fallen ‘baddha-jivas’ (the lower secondary state of the marginal living entity) into His mahat-tattva creation.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss”
15. pustakrishna says :

    Feb 21, 2010 at 7:24 pm

    Very, very good discussion. Please understand that the jiva-soul has his eternal origin as jiva-atma, part of Sri Krishna, never from the Brahma-jyoti. I never said that the conditioned jiva-soul has his origin in the Brahma-jyoti, Sri Krishna’s effulgence. However, the brahma-jyoti if full with individual jiva souls, all divinely effulgent and still with their individual identity. That is not to say that their “origin” is the brahmajyoti. One may travel between cities or countries, but they remain who they are. I do not have Sri Brahma Samhita at hand but I believe this is verse number 21.

    So, although our origin is Sri Krishna, and we have the potential for dwelling in Vaikuntha-dham or Sri Goloka Vrindaban, with Krishna, Personally face to face, the “eternally condtioned souls”, nitya-baddha, do not take that option, misusing their divinely given minute independence. When Krishna says, that having once gone there (to Vaikuntha/Goloka, one never returns to the material world, then many spiritually enlightened Vaishnavas have debated whether the conditioned souls were ever with Krishna or not…..yet. That transformation from nitya-baddha to nitya-siddha can take place by the grace of Guru and Krishna.

    So whether we consider that our environment was Sri Goloka or Brahmajyoti (not our origin), prior to entry into the material world, the reality is that the jiva soul is eternally part and parcel of Krishna, beyond birth or death. Origin really is not the issue. Identity is “part of Sri Krishna…mamai vamso jiva loke jiva bhuta sanatana. But, destination, environment…those are the relative issues. The dilemma comes when we try to imply that we were with Krishna, the reservoir of love, beauty, ecstasy, our dearmost Friend….how could we leave Him to go anywhere else? Srila Prabhupad gives us much hope. It is not that the Brahmajyoti is a desirable place for the soul which has part of Sri Krishna’s ecstatic nature. Rather, the jiva soul, when adverse or negligent of Sri Krishna, must be someplace other than Sri Goloka, the environment of divine loving Krishna consciousness. Some consider that this would explain, rationally, why the jiva soul in the material world is therefore nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. Really, the jiva soul is tatashta, marginal potency, having the option for dedication versus exploitation.

    Pusta Krishna das
16. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 24, 2010 at 6:55 pm

    Pusta Krishna Prabhu – “Some consider that this would explain, rationally, why the jiva soul in the material world is therefore nitya-baddha, eternally conditioned. Really, the jiva soul is tatastha, marginal potency, having the option for dedication versus exploitation”.

    I was inspired reading your post Prabhu, I would just like to add that tatastha s’akti (marginal living entity) refers to both the nitya-siddha body in Goloka and the nitya-baddha sub-consciousness (secondary state of the marginal living entity) that takes shelter within material bodily vessels within the material creation. The marginal living entity is marginal (marginal means tatastha s’akti) because of free-will and choice, hence this is why every marginal living entity has both nitya-siddha or nitya-baddha characteristics. Srila Prabhupada confirms this by saying – “The actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976

    Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist. This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.

    Srila Prabhupada – “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

    In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.

    Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. Actually he has not fallen”http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
17. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Feb 24, 2010 at 7:29 pm

    There is Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the perpetual present) and the mahat-tattva (past, present and future), however, there is also the Impersonal Brahmajyoti where the marginal living entity in their nitya baddha condition, is (temporarily) unaware of past, present or future in a dreamless dream condition that also a transitory situation of the baddha-jiva.

    In this way the nitya-baddha secondary mundane dreams begin, due to free will that originates from the marginal living entities own marginal perpetualality in Goloka, however the nitya-baddha condition is NEVER in Goloka and therefore has no connection whatsoever to ones genuine nitya-siddha body. How do we understand that? Well, just like we understand that darkness can never exist where there is light. In this way, the act of selfish choices immediately expels one from Goloka ‘sub-consciously’ and places their ‘awareness’ in the mahat-tattva. That ‘sub-conscious condition is the baddha-jiva.

    Srila Prabhupada has this (darkness can never exist where there is light) on the front of his B.T.G. Magazine and it is so important to understand. “Godhead is light. Nescience is darkness. Where there is Godhead there is no nescience.” Nescience—not the commonest of words either. But that was it. Nescience—darkness, ignorance, not knowing—as to be dispelled by knowledge, by light, by Godhead.

    This is why the baddha-jiva has been described, as the dark side of the marginal living entity and has nothing to do with the nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body. So again it can be further understood in this simple way, darkness can never exist in the presents of light similarly, the baddha-jiva inferior condition can never exist in the presents of ones nitya-siddha-body in Goloka.

    The baddha-jiva sub-consciousness or spark is eventually impregnated within the mahat-tattva material creation facilitated by Maha Vishnu.

    The nitya-baddha is the lower self or the secondary ‘NON”-Krishna conscious condition of the marginal living entity born from misusing ones free-will and therefore falling out of sync with perpetual time in Goloka and Vaikuntha known as the ‘eternal present’ of Krishna Consciousness.

    This baddha-jiva state is devoid of form until they are either given form by Maha-Vishnu or return back home back to Godhead to their original svarupa or rasa form in Goloka beyond the divisions of material time.

    Hare Bol, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
18. pustakrishna says :

    Feb 26, 2010 at 8:04 am

    One helpful approach is to consider that the “body means senses”. I have heard Srila Prabhupad use this expression. For example, in explaining transmigration of the soul, the jiva-atma may develop different material bodies (tiger, bird, human) that reflect the senses granted them to exploit the material nature externally. This arises from association with the modes of nature. This approach can also be extended to Krishna consciousness. The jiva-atma can receive an appropriate form (spiritual senses) to serve Krishna with. So, the senses which reflect the mentality/consciousness, ultimately are determining the type of body. Hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate.

    The major distinction between the material body and the spiritual body, as we know philosophically, is that the spiritual body/senses and the jiva-atma self are identical, no duality. In contrast, the jiva-atma is not the material body, nor part of the material world at all. The jiva soul is the ksetra-jna, knower of the field…but is not the field (the body or material senses). A mere passenger on the chariot (Upanishads).

    As Gauragopal is trying to elucidate this so well, we can reflect upon the possibility that the jiva-soul can regain full Krishna consciousness, even while dwelling within the material field. Thus, one can reawaken the spiritual senses (= form) while still dwelling within the material body. Through dedication to Sri Guru and Sri Gauranga, this is possible. This is our great hope…that we might somehow, hope against hope, become accepted by Krishna, blessed with divine love in this lifetime. Whether in Goloka or anywhere else, we pray that we might be blessed with love for Krishna.

    The journey to Krishna is not a material journey. Christ says that the ‘kingdom of God is within”. When we hear sometimes that the bhakti creeper must grow up and pierce the viraja and pierce into the spiritual environment, we might consider that it must grow in a physical way. That is not the case. It is always a spiritual journey, a journey of purification of the consciousness. We may not know or be able to verbalize all the steps in detail, yet we have faith in the process which our Gurudeva has given us. In essence, service to the Holy Name, in all its manifestations, is the divine path Home.

    May all of us relish the soon to take place Gaura Purnima realizing how very fortunate we have been, grace of Srila Prabhupad and his extensions. Pusta Krishna das
19. Akruranatha says :

    Feb 26, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Nice discussion.

    One thing I might add, which came up recently during Q & A after one of the Mayapur festival classes, is that jiva tattva, marginal potency, is distinguished from other tattvas not exactly by free will, but by smallness.

    That is to say, it is the characteristic of marginal potency that we can exercise our free will in choosing to act in nescience, darkness, or maha-maya. In darkness we falsely think we are independent, but we are always actually dependent.

    Krishna also has free will. Radha also has free will. Durga has free will. Shiva has free will. But they are all “bigger” than jivas. They cannot be “covered” in maya as we can.

    For me, Shiva and Durga are difficult to understand.

    All his subject matter of jiva tattva, shakti tattva, vishnu tattva, “ontology” of the different kinds of beings, is inconceivable. But how it is that Shiva and Durga give rise to the “faculty of perverted cognition” as part of Krishna’s lila of creating the material world, as described in Brahma-Samhita, is puzzling to me. And who they are as “dim twilight reflection” and “conceiving potency.”

    Now, there are other nitya-siddha devotees in the spiritual world who are eternally “assigned” to their positions in different rasas, like Yasoda and Nanda, Sridham and Subal, etc.

    For example, in NOD Srila Prabhupada writes that a devotee should not try to “become” Nanda Maharaja. That would be akin to Mayavada, because Nanda Maharaja’s position is “already assigned.” Instead, one may aspire to serve in a mood like that of Nanda Maharaja.

    Does that mean these infallible, eternally “already assigned” devotees are not jivas? Are they shakti tattva? Does it even make sense to ask the question?

    Whatever they are, they do have free will, but they never misuse it.

    How about Narada Muni? We have the story he tells in the Bhagavatam about his previous life as a maidservant’s son. Does that mean he is not one of the “eternally assigned” devotees? Was he really in nescience, like we are, or was he just put in that position to teach a lesson for our benefit, like Arjuna at the beginning of Bhagavad-gita?

    We know he is definitely jiva tattva. He is the example of jiva tattva (Srivas Thakur in the Panca Tattva).

    My inkling is that there is something inconceivable about this subject matter that makes it wrong for me to try to bring it under the jurisdiction of my speculative logic. I just have to hear and accept it as told by enlightened devotees.
20. pustakrishna says :

    Feb 28, 2010 at 10:38 pm

    Speculation, as Akruranath das, voices, is not acceptable in our line. Knowledge is descending through our Guru Parampara…and there has to be concordance of Guru, Shastra, Sadhu. Very good points are brought out by Akruranath das, regarding avoidance of sahajaya-ism and mayavad-ism. Again, we remain who we are eternally. We have an identity. Our devotional place will be revealed by Krishna when He desires to reveal it. It is good to remember the wonder roles that are played by various classes of devotees in the Vrindaban-lila, but we need to take that upon our head, realizing that raga-bhakti cannot be construed. One must patiently wait on Krishna’s mercy, and go on serving happily and with determination. We want to show Krishna that we are serious about His service. He is within our heart and witnesses all.
    Regarding the position of the jiva, we must know that despite being a jiva-soul, Krishna can empower and facilitate service for anyone as He chooses. Our beloved Srila Prabhupad was empowered. Srila Vyasadeva, a saktyavesh avatar, is obviously empowered. So all, so called, points of light, jiva souls, are not given equal facility. And, similarly, the gopis in Krishna lila may have different functions as well. The one issue is that Krishna is the Supreme Subject, the Supreme Enjoyer, and the Reservoir of Pleasure. We hear also that Lord Brahma may be an empowered jiva soul, or may sometimes be an expansion of Krishna as a Vishnu-tattva.
    These points may help to place some perspective on some of these issues. We, in the line of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, find the ideal of Srila Rupa Goswami as Sri Rupa Manjari to be a divine leader of followers of Lord Chaitanya’s mood. All can be contemplated, but the mood of service must predominate the heart of the vaishnava. If self-centric pleasure seeking will enter the heart, we must try to turn our will toward Krishna’s service…and Krishna must help us. He will not defeat our efforts of devotion, if we are sincere. Now, regarding the place of Narada Muni, and for that matter all liberated servants of the Lord. In the state of liberation, ie naturally loving service of Krishna, they are nitya-siddha. They are not illusioned nor covered by illusion, even if they may appear to inhabit a material external form. This, I think is the point that His Grace Gauragopala is trying to make. The body, ie the senses, are dictated by the role of spiritual service vs. exploitation. PK das
21. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Mar 2, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    The basic point both Akruranatha and Pusta Krishna Prabhu’s are writing is to truly advance in Krishna Consciousness is by engaging in selfless devotional service. It’s as simple as that

    Actually we can all only understand what ultimately Krishna and Guru allow us to realize and words alone can never reveal the secrets of Spiritual life, only our offenceless selfless caring devotion to devotees and Krishna can lead us back home back to Godhead and that realization can come even while we are in our troublesome material bodies as Pusta Krishna has explained.

    The fundamental belief of devotional service is detachment from material activities and attachment to the transcendental service of the Lord. (Bhagavad-gita 15.1 purport)

    Thank you Akruranatha and Pusta Krishna Prabhu’s for instilling in me further that only devotional service which is mukti or freedom from material entanglement, is more important than the accumulation of Knowledge (jnan) or any other yoga system.

    By absorbing our senses in activities centred on Krishna, we cultivate attachment to Krishna, which will gradually develop into love, and all our attachment to material activities will be forgotten.

    The Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.18-20 says – “Maharaja Ambarisha always engaged his mind in meditating upon the lotus feet of Krishna, his words in describing the glories of the Lord, his hands in cleansing the Lord’s temple, and his ears in hearing the words spoken by Krishna or about Krishna.

    He engaged his eyes in seeing the Deity of Krishna, Krishna’s temples and Krishna’s places like Mathura and Vrndavana, he engaged his sense of touch in touching the bodies of the Lord’s devotees, he engaged his sense of smell in smelling the fragrance of Tulasi offered to the Lord, and he engaged his tongue in tasting the Lord’s prasadam.

    He engaged his legs in walking to the holy places and temples of the Lord, his head in bowing down before the Lord, and all his desires in serving the Lord, twenty-four hours a day.

    Indeed, Maharaja Ambarisha never desired anything for his own sense gratification. He engaged all his senses in devotional service, in various engagements related to the Lord. This is the way to increase attachment for the Lord and be completely free from all material desires”. Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.18-20
22. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Mar 2, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    Srila Prabhupada – “One must execute devotional service under the guidance of a devotee or directly under the guidance of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is not possible, however, to train oneself without guidance from the spiritual master.

    Therefore, according to the instructions of Srila Rupa Gosvami, the first business of a devotee is to accept a bona fide spiritual master who can train him to engage his various senses in rendering transcendental service to the Lord.

    The Lord also says in Bhagavad-gita (7.1), asamsayam samagram mam yatha jnasyasi tac chrinu. In other words, if one wants to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead in completeness, one must follow the prescriptions given by Krishna by following in the footsteps of Maharaja Ambarisha” Srimad Bhagavatam 9.4.18-20 Purport

    This subject has gone very deep in the heart and for the nitya-baddhas to again become nitya-siddhas, the above formula of devotional service that pleases the Spiritual Master is really our only way, there is no other way.

    Everything else will be revealed according to the seriousness we take our devotional service and chanting and hearing (At least 16 rounds a day) the glorious of Lord Krishna and His devotees.

    Without this formula Srila Prabhupada has given us, the mysterious of creation and our original position with Krishna will always remain unknown, vague and hindered with the selfish desires to exploit this material world.

    Therefore such selfless service is really the only way to correctly realize we are NOT these material subtle and gross bodies or the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that possesses them but are eternal nitya-siddha devotees of Lord Krishna. And this can be realized now, as Pusta Krishna has stated through the strength of ones devotional service.

    Jai Sri Caitanya Maha Prabhu, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
23. pustakrishna says :

    Mar 6, 2010 at 3:02 am

    I have so much respect for this type of discussion. Smarana, remembrance, may take several forms here. First, we can remember instructions, Lila, Rupa (Form), etc. But, here, we have delved into deep philosophical ideas, arriving at a rejuvenation of the ideal of self-less devotional service as the means of spiritual perfection. Actually, attaining Krishna’s mercy is the final success. I recall many years ago how one of our godbrothers, Hrdayananda Maharaj, used a nice example. While performed devotional service, sadhana bhakti, we may at some time receive the full blessing of Krishna’s grace. He used the example of a housefly that is trapped in a house and wants to get out. He is flying again and again into the glass of a window, trying to get outside. Eventually, someone may see this effort and open the window for the fly to go out through the window to the outside, thus freeing it.

    Our good fortune is that both the MEANS and the END is bhakti. Devotional service. Not to be too anxious about where we might be in the continuum…as all is Krishna’s mercy. Our beloved Srila Prabhupad, and the family of devotees, remain the source of inspiration.

    Incidentally, I just re-typed up the Six Verses on Surrender that Srila Prabhupad wrote and read to me in 1971. It is included under the category “Blog thoughts” currently on Dandavats.com
    I hope that you will appreciate how personal and reciprocating Srila Prabhupad was with his disciples. Although the movement may have grown, and His Divine Grace was always busy with service, he always noted the contents of every letter sent to him, and usually replied to each and every one. He was a personalist, not only in acknowledging that the Supreme Truth is the Supreme Person, but also in interacting with others, he was very much personal. I regret that I was so young and failed to fully appreciate everything he did for others and for me. Still, we have eternity to relish this service, wherever Sri Krishna sees fit to place us. Hare Krishna. Pusta Krishna das
24. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Mar 11, 2010 at 8:01 am

    Being embodied in the troublesome material body makes it hard to realize that not a blade of grass can move without the sanction of the Lord. How is this so?

    It is said in the scriptures that Lord Brahma and the other 33 million demigod representatives of Maha Vishnu provide many things the embodied baddha-jiva mistakenly and selfishly desires even though they do not like to do so.

    The reason for this is the Lord does not interfere with the free-will and chooses of the marginal living entity, even though they may lead to more suffering.

    Factually, without free will, there would be no need to have the mahat-tattva (material creation) however, because we DO have the free will to serve Krishna or reject Krishna, there is a need to have the mahat-tattva just like our society has the need to have a jail.

    Without free will how can there be genuine love and service? There has to be a choice and that is why we are called ‘marginal’ living entities.

    Each marginal living entity has the nitya-siddha body in Goloka and, if they choose, the nitya baddha consciousness (surrogate) that takes shelter within material bodily vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu within His mahat-tattva material creation.

    Hear are some interesting quotes from Srila Prabhupada describing the material and Spiritual (Vaikuntha/Goloka) Worlds

    Srila Prabhupada – “This material world is a product of the mahat tattva, which is a state of the Lord’s dreaming condition in His yoga-nidra mystic slumber in the Causal Ocean, and yet the whole creation appears to be a factual presentation of His creation. This means that the Lord’s dreaming conditions are also factual manifestations”. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30

    Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual world, however, beyond the mahat-tattva, there is no question of incarnations, but there are plenary expansions of the Lord in different Vaikunthas.

    The planets in the spiritual sky are at least three times the number of those within the innumerable universes in the mahat-tattva. And all the Narayana forms of the Lord are but expansions of His Vasudeva feature, and thus He is Vasudeva, Narayana and Krsna simultaneously. He is Sri-Krsna Govinda hare murare, he natha narayaṇa Vasudeva, all in one. His qualities, therefore, cannot be counted by anyone, however great one may be. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30

    Hare Krishna, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
25. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Apr 11, 2010 at 8:39 am

    Actually because of the ‘concept of the eternal presence of Krishna consciousness’ there are really no two states of consciousness as some believe, it is all to do with where ones ‘awareness’ is placed. This means there is no sub-conscious secondary self (nitya-baddha) as long as one is experiencing the full potential of their marginal bodily identity which is nitya-siddha.

    In this way, nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha can be compared to light (nitya-siddha) and darkness (nitya-baddha), just like there is only light, and the absents of light (darkness) What is really going on is to do with time that separates the ‘eternal presence’ of Krishna Consciousness in Goloka from the divided time of ‘past, present and future of the mahat-tattva or material creation. This sentence is very important to understand. What actually happens is the non-Krishna conscious desire, thoughts, dreams and imaginations of the marginal living entity happens on the sub-conscious level that are ‘out of sync’ with the ‘eternal presence’ of Krishna Consciousness that is eternally existent in Goloka.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger, there is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream (Nitya-baddha secondary sub-conscious state). (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

    When the marginal living entity, in the restricted baddha-jiva secondary condition, is Krishna conscious enough to awaken the memory of their svarupa or nitya-siddha bodily relationship with Krishna, then the billion or so life times ‘dreaming’ in the maha-tattva will be no more than a moment. In fact it will be as if they never left.

    The marginal living entity, as its secondary inferior baddha-jiva self, only appears as a secondary manifestation of the self due to the altered state of time created by them by rejecting Krishna and placing their ‘awareness’ of themselves outside of Goloka in the lifeless mahat-tattva as their secondary dreaming nitya-baddha state. In other words, as soon as they reject serving Krishna in Goloka, they place themselves within the mahat-tattva.

    Srila Prabhupada – “So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna? ” I immediately fall down. July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C
26. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Apr 11, 2010 at 1:23 pm

    The marginal energy (tatastha-s’akti) is the jiva-tattvas; it is not some region in outer space. According to Srila Prabhupada, all jiva-tattvas that are trapped in this material creation have all come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago. No marginal living entity (jiva-tattva) ‘originates’ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the Vraja River.

    Srila Prabhupada – “The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-Maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga-Maya). Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.23.10 purport

    Srila Prabhupada – “The Supreme Personality of Godhead impregnates the mahat-tattva (material creation) with His internal potency which are the living entities. The mahat-tattva (lifeless matter) is thus “lit up” by the sum total of the consciousness of all the conditioned souls (baddha-jivas)” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.26.19-2).

    The mahat-tattva refers to the material creation that includes all the subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material vessels. The mahat-tattva is the creation of Maha-Vishnu; everything in His innate or lifeless material creation is the manifestation of His dreams and thoughts.

    Maha-Vishnu brings life to the mahat-tattva by His glance that places baddha-jivas throughout the material creation who are from the previous mahat-tattva or who are the nitya-baddha manifestation that is evident when the marginal living entity chooses to leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, forgetting Krishna and their own nitya-siddha body and placing their ‘awareness’ as nitya-baddha within material bodily vessels that are part of the mahat-tattva dream creation of Maha-Vishnu.

    If the marginal living entity or jiva-soul chooses to enter Maha-Vishnu’s material creation by rejecting to service Krishna in Goloka as their nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body, the now nitya-baddha’s material desires will be given the facility of a material ethereal and biological vessel that already exists within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu which are permanent posts, containments, vessel or ornament of the mahat-tattva. They are available to an unlimited number of jiva-souls (As their secondary baddha-jiva) The mahat-tattva along with all its vessels, are continuously created and annihilated with the creation and destruction of each mahat-tattva.
27. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Apr 11, 2010 at 1:26 pm

    The gross characteristics of the material universe that houses biological bodies as well as there innate or lifeless remnants left over after the embodied baddha-jiva, contained in the ethereal vessel, gives up or is forced to give up the outer biological vessel, is totally different than the underlining subtle (ethereal) universe that takes up 75% of the material universe or mahat-tattva. Modern science and technology can only register or view 25% of the material universes, the other 75% cannot be seen with biological eyes or its extensions of gross material technology.

    So only 25% of the material universe is made up of biological bodily vessels and gross matter. All dead matter such as dust, rocks, sand, atmosphere are all left over from the presence of biological embodied life, and scientific advancement such as the Hubble Telescope, the Electron Microscope and the Large Hadron Collider (atom smasher) are also made out of this matter which means these instruments cannot register the subtle ethereal material universe that takes up 75% of the mahat-tattva material creation. The greater majority of the material universe, not to be misunderstood as Spiritual (Vaikuntha/Goloka) is the subtle material (ethereal universe and home of the demigods and hellish worlds) that can never be measured by anything in the gross material universe.

    Therefore 75% of the mahat-tattva (material universe) is not seen with biological eyes or even measured by any kind of gross material technology no matter how advanced. Only pious or impious activities can reveal both the heavenly and hellish words to an individual however, there is no gross material way other than by the path of self realization under the guidance of a Guru can this be realized, experienced and understood.

    Srila Prabhupada – “Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency” Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 5.41 purport

    Srila Prabhupada – “The Supreme Personality of Godhead impregnates the mahat-tattva (lifeless material creation) with His internal potency, which are the living entities. The mahat-tattva (lifeless matter left over from the presence of the jiva-baddha) is thus “lit up” by the sum total of the consciousness of all the conditioned souls (baddha-jivas) (SB 3.26.19-20)
28. Gauragopala dasa says :

    Apr 11, 2010 at 1:42 pm

    Srila Prabhupada – “And all the Narayana forms of the Lord are but expansions of His Vasudeva feature, and thus He is Vasudeva, Narayana and Krsna simultaneously. He is Sri-Krsna Govinda hare murare, he natha narayana vasudeva, all in one. His qualities, therefore, cannot be counted by anyone, however great one may be.” Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30

    Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord.” (Bhagavad-gita 13.23 purport)

    Srila Prabhupada – “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva (jiva-tattva), and the other is called the Supreme Lord (Vishnu-tattva)” . Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”

    Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions – sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature. Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy.” Bhagavad-gita 8.3 purport

    Srila Prabhupada – “The living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord.” Bhagavad-gita 13.23 purport

    In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy or jiva-tattva has the propensity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently due to choice and free-will, this is what the word MARGINAL really means. So, marginal energy, or tatastha-s’akti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but rather signifies the capability of the jiva-soul which simply means they all have the free-will to choose to serve Krishna or choose to do their own thing in the mahat-tattva. We are NOT God, we are expansions of Krishna but we are NOT Krishna, we are jiva-tattva or marginal living beings and Krishna and His direct expansions are Vishnu-tattva. We are eternal subordinates of Krishna like the sunrays are subordinate to the Sun globe. Hare Bol, your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
29. pustakrishna says :

    May 16, 2010 at 8:12 pm

    For my friend, Gauragopala das

    Something I read today in one of the Dandavats contributions:

    The soul already has a spiritual body, which the material
    body covers. My material body grows upon me – my spiritual body – but my
    material body is unnatural. The real body is spiritual. I am accepting various
    bodies
    that are unnatural to my constitution. My real, constitutional position is to
    be the servant of Krishna. Los Angeles, May 13, 1973.

    Prabhupada Meditations – May 14 to May 20

    As we try to decipher the true reality, this quote by Srila Prabhupad may help. Our spiritual body is non-different from the presence of jiva soul conscious entity…simply covered ignorance, illusion with misidentification with the covering, the material body.

    So we do not come into being, nor go out of being, but rather the consciousness is covered by varying degrees of ignorance.
    Pusta Krishna das