Ultimate social work-sharing KC as enunciated by Lord Gauranga (video)

 

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Dear devotees welcome back to the GBC SPT page, my name is Deva Madhava Das and I’m very happy to have with us today His Grace Kripamoya Prabhu. Welcome Prabhu, thank you so much. He is a disciple of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and he joined very early, on which I’m going to, I’m excited to ask from you about in a moment, and he was resolute in his determination from a very young age and a steady servant of the movement, he’s an and initiating spiritual master… my own appreciation for you is in your children. I have the privilege of knowing all of them to some degree or another and as many parents in Krishna consciousness know it’s difficult to have even one kind of stick and follow through with the practice and you have three for three, all of your children are serious devotees in their own right and so that’s a great accomplishment in and of itself, so thank you so much for being here today to discuss with us Krishna consciousness as the greatest welfare work, and it’s something that you’ve really dedicated yourself to, the sharing of Krishna consciousness with others. But as I mentioned first, I just kind of like to get into how you met the devotees how you yourself became attracted to Krishna consciousness.

Thank you very much prabhuji. I’m delighted to be here. My beginnings of Krishna consciousness were the single handed efforts of one man. Who was a disciple of Srila Prabhupada, his name is Tribuvanath Das. I didn’t know his name until the third meeting, with each of these three meetings, I got a little bit closer until I actually talked to him.

They all involved pop festivals and they all involved crowds of people and the rain, and on the last occasion I met him it was it was raining and I was seventeen and what hippies we had in England had overtaken the queen’s back garden. Was Windsor Castle, so we can see Windsor Castle in the back and there was tension growing between the local authorities and the hippies. I just happen to be sort of a passenger with this cultural attention and Tribuvanath said why don’t you come out of the rain? We’ve got a place for you to stay and they fed me, invited me to join the town and I never look back but it was kindness that. Me and I think and they’re determination to be reaching out to people in the rain, which I thought was pretty dedicated.

Yeah. So you saw an exceptional example of determination early on.

I did saw people who were… I didn’t know whether I believed in anything they told me, I thought they look pretty cool. I thought they were buddhists and ii like the idea of reincarnation and meditation and karma and all those kind of things. So I wasn’t too sure about Krishna whether that was some sort of geographical or cultural a that was sort of stuck on to buddhism because the template of buddhism was orange robes and shaved heads and these people were obviously Buddhists despite what they were telling me and I don’t really like doing that whether they like it or not you are you will be a buddhist so I came along with them and gradually came to know what it was all about.

I put up a fight, but the fight wasn’t good enough. Unfortunately, like thankfully, qualified warrior the that’s a nice segway because that’s it’s you kind of met the devotees in the classical circumstance that we think of you when we think of preaching and outreach, especially in the mood of Mahaprabhu and as Srila Prabhupada gave it to us those simple sweet ways of book distribution street san festivals is there any difference between? Today and then, in terms of how to connect people to Krishna consciousness, those methods should there be other methods. Is there is separation? What what’s your thoughts on how to connect people today to Krishna consciousness?

Yeah, my thoughts is as a missionary movement, a religious movement spiritual movement preaching movement we are permanently in a state of tension between two very important things. One is preserving the legacy of thousands of years of tradition given to us by the most recent representative a power and at the same time, making sure that we’re relevant and accessible to the people of twenty 2223 etcetera so the core values the core teachings and the core expressions, namely the Hare Krishna mantra must stay the same. But packaging in which that’s delivered will be completely relevant and accessible to the people of the day, but he did it definitely did it and we were also called upon to do it but certain things stay the same and certain things will be changed. Otherwise, we will be irrelevant. Because we’re focusing on my hyper, let’s begin with the verse. He was explaining the famous verse that all about his charm before they go on harry. I’m ava and she said I’m said I’m star. Na na na ana, it was explaining that verse and said this states that anyone who accepts any other path cannot be delivered. That’s the first point. This is the. For the triple repetition, nothing else, nothing else nothing else, which emphasizes the real process of self-realization. So that’s hardcore and non-negotiable. This is what we do. This is what the movement is all about and in the same section, which is the thirteenth chapter of Srila Prabhupada says on these principles only does a Krishna consciousness movement go on. We have no other business than to talk of Krishna worship Krishna. And mantra, so that’s the non-negotiable. That’s the legacy that we’re charged to preserve.

But let’s be clear that our family business can come in a multitude of colorful packaging to attract the minds and sensibilities of the people of the day. So the things that proper emphasizes books daily worship festivals based on daily worship. These things are. The sort of things that we do the the the the ingredients of the Hare Krishna movement that are non negotiable how you present that to people and more importantly, when you present it to people on their journey, that’s the most important thing when you hold back and when you offer something that will change, according to the sensibility of the person and the the the the confidence and ability of the particular a particular preach.

There’s two directions I wanna take this questions coming up in my own mind. I love how you narrow down what it is the essence of what was given and then the packaging says, is something that’s a little more negotiable. There seems to be a kind of I’ll use a word that might be touchy, but it’s almost a nostalgia around the traditional packaging. Let’s say the packaging that was there in the early days of the movement, and of course that’s the packaging that was created by Srila Prabhupada and his followers directly when he was and the there’s an apprehension almost to give up that packaging in certain circumstances, even though it might make more sense from the side of a material perspective, what’s gonna be more effective and attractive for people today. So how can we navigate that especially in this this awkward period after has recently departed his disciples are still present how do we navigate what packaging to use and what’s not kind of being disrespectful to the tradition?

I think certain elements have to be there before we we start thinking of changing packaging and these are some non-negotiables that go along with the basic messages and one is that firstly in movement, everybody is a preacher. Lord Chaitanya said: I am the only gardener how many places can I go how many fruits can I pick and distribute so when a crucial element is that perhaps now that the movement has been successful, there is a tendency to regard preachers as a select species of life something that other. It’s something that other people do this book distributed is in this managers and book distributors, preach and managers manage I think that’s a dangerous dichotomy to raise because in movement everybody is picking the fruit. Everybody is you know everybody becomes a gardener. Secondly, everybody has to be following the process Srila Prabhupada says that to be a preacher means to be humble to be happy to be pure things like this and I really think that if we hold on to those two things that we’re doing very well and from that position of strength, then we can begin to negotiate what is the packaging that I would like to deliver otherwise certain things can be lost in the desire to be relevant and accessible.

Relevant and accessible doesn’t mean making yourself fashionable and losing what it is you came to to give the person in the first place. But I do think that being a conscious preacher, and we’ll go little later on into other that word preaching has been abused and misused, the first thing is to become as proverb was sensitive to people’s interests now, now, people already have two things going on for them, they have their spiritual journey that that’s going on whether we you know whether we recognize it or not everybody that comes. To us is on a spiritual journey. In the Bhaktivedanta Manor, at the temple I’m associated with in 1973, Srila Prabhupada said anyone who comes to the temple, MahaVishnu has sent him there personally so please take care of him. He’s been sent by the Lord. So that’s that’s one thing. So they’re on a spiritual journey that journey involves Krishna whether they recognize that fact or not and second thing is that they’re already they. Got their packaging by the level of interest that they have in different aspects and the various projects in is gone that are successfully addressing themselves to the prevailing interest that a person has so person comes to us from the green movement and we have something to say about that they come from the yoga community. The element of the yoga community. We have something to say about that they’re interested in philosophy or punish us we can help.

That they just want to belong to a community. The field because they’re coming from a nuclear family or very isolated space in their life, they need to be long have a sense of a tribe to belong to we can help with that they’re vegan you know we can definitely help with that or or none of those things that they just wanna know you know that a lot of people these days wanna take Hare Krishna of their list they think well I should know something about these guys. I’ve seen them often enough. Let me check them off. To see why I don’t like them and they they check us out and they’re more involved. So what we need to do is to acknowledge that they have a level of spiritual interest and then we need to be intuitive and we need to ask them questions and sometimes people say that we don’t ask questions and we don’t listen cuz we’re so keen on telling people what we believe and how they should behave but we don’t ask questions so we have two um. And Srila Prabhupada’s life. What is the speaker in which Srila Prabhupada did all the talking and we did all the listening and there was a couple of questions at the end. That’s one format the other format the other Srila Prabhupada, you could say is the person who gave himself in conversations and in those conversations if you study conversation, books or tapes excuse me tapes what happened streaming. In Srila Prabhupada’s recordings you will discover that Srila Prabhupada spend a lot of his time listening and that’s the art of a preacher is knowing not what to say at first, but how to listen and from the listening will come to speaking so.

I think the best the best type of preacher teacher missionary worker guru addresses himself or herself to I use prophet’s words. Nice for me means nice the needs of a person the interests of a person the concerns of a person. What are they little slightly apprehensive about what have they heard about Hare Krishna that might not directly connect with their values? Yeah, and what are their expectations? What do they expect from us? So nice? So we address our messages to these these four things I think that’s a good guide for preachers in in general clever nice. Be nice. Be nice. We hear that often, it’s it’s an english word. I know that the word nice is fallen out of fashion and in america and some other places, but we still use it in british english. Well, I would say it wouldn’t be nice if more devotees conceived of this as the way to approach their outreach and it’s ii like. Point about listening it’s to them. This is how we preach to ourselves so to speak hearing and chanting yeah, and it’s an effective way to actually connect with others also here first and then do a little chanting based on what you’ve heard from them makes a lot of sense actually so a question I have then because you mentioned these different interest groups and our movement has something for everyone. Practically everyone is searching for different aspects of his manifestation as pro says, so we may be able to draw in somebody from the yoga crowd or the environmental crowd vegan etcetera etcetera. How do. See that switch happening for people in your experience from somebody who’s just kind of favorable and friendly to really following the mission and and feeling themselves a member of pots community. Well, let me let me address myself to a slight problem. You know, let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

The slight problem is that not everybody considers themselves to be a guru in the sense that has spoke the word use the word and what I mean by that. That in in es 2021, we all use the word guru to mean a specific individual who initiates, but the sounds good of the I don’t wanna get into any controversial areas, but the point that we do the the thing is that in a preaching movement like ours, everybody is a guru you have to and although we may encourage the voters to get in touch with the inner disciple. I think it’s just as important to get the votes to get in touch with the inner guru guru simply means. Someone who’s heavy with knowledge someone who knows something and hopefully someone who wants to share so I take it my my take on this verse keep a knine to say good in the purple, says this the word guru equally applies to a guru guru guru etcetera so anyone who knows anything about Krishna and who’s a follower of.

It’s sort of duty bound by his order to share that with others and if you’re not sharing um. Then that’s a shame because you have so much within yourself and I find these days that I have to speak to the voters. Quite often about the qualifications for sharing what has convinced them themselves because many devotees don’t take the opportunity to connect with others because of what they perceive as their own lack of qualification. And if only they would do that they would become very regular messages because in the world today, there are many people talking about who have no connection with real authorized. There are many spiritual teachers gurus shamans mystics, who are going online with the podcast and the youtubes and the internet communities, and really what they’re giving is very small in comparison to what any of our young devotees can give so I would say before we talk. About having attracted people from these different communities that every single devoting must really understand that you are empowered as soon as you step up to the plate to share something that you know one time they came to prada and they said, should we wait until we’re pure before we before we preach and laughed, he said. If you, he said, if you wait until that day comes, he said, you will wait forever nothing will ever happen but better to better to. To preach and become pure while you’re preaching I just thought I would make that point because it’s that’s often overlooked. I appreciate that you did. Yeah, that so that sense of responsibility being there in everyone’s you know in the forefront of our christian conscious experience and we we could get into a different direction altogether in the conversation, which is tempting we could indeed we couldn’t see but I’ll I’ll bring it back to that idea.

So I’m I have that invigorated sense but now what does it take to bring somebody from that place of familiarity friendly with the devotees to really becoming serious themselves some. Who’s who I’m I’m preaching to I’m I’m connected with in some way how to bring them over the hump and to really becoming serious about their own practice. And in 1985, when I you know when I’ve been a devoted for 11 years and I thought I knew the answer to this question and you know if if life teaches you anything is that you know nothing I went to india to be part of a bariatric a walking festival through the south of India that was heralding the 500th anniversary of his birth in 1986 the following year and we would. South of the place known as we’re a famous conversation took place between Lord Chaitanya and a brahman who wanted to join Him, but the Lord said no you stay at home and you know you get other people involved in your locality and so we were coming up the road 1 day and we saw a car in front of us and you may think that’s not unusual but in that part of india down in harry Hare Krishna mantra with drums and symbols. So I thought, well, it must be a branch of the Gaudiya-math coming to see us, they said no. So when we got to the village, we found that these people had been every morning before breakfast they’ve been, the men of the village with the ladies on the doorstep and they’d walked from the village well to the outskirts and back up to the road and then back to the well just half an hour and we are wondering where does this all come from and they said oh 500 years ago, someone was walking this path on his way to south and he told us to do this and I asked what was the name of this person. Of course, they were enthralled to see me because here they’ve never seen a white man before. And we suggested to them if the name was “Chaitanya” and we we met the village elder who was ninety-one and he said, oh, yes and they had done this every day for the past whatever it was 500, you know 450 years 460 years and I wondered what was the secret that had and as part of my preparing for this class, I did a lot of reading. And I kept seeing this word “Āliṅgana” and it means that wherever He went, He embraced, so it wasn’t just the chanting of Hare Krishna. It wasn’t just the you know a high philosophy, but He made friends with people and when he asked me the question, how do we keep people in Krishna consciousness for a lifetime? I must say I’m gonna embrace them and make them friends.

And as kids in school, we used to have this thing, we said, make friends make friends never never break friends In a recent survey, the reason for my lifetime about 20 years ago in America, they asked a lot of new age of people who who knows the most in the spirit new spiritual community and who’s the most friendly and strangely enough the devos of Krishna we came. As the most bruises and knowledge but least friendly, which was a great surprise to us because we thought come on, we’re friendly people we sing dance. We’re happy people, but they had judged on the basis of the communication they had received, which was often a very discourse of exchange with a book distributor which lasted for the average of 3 minutes because of course you can’t speak to anyone for more than that time. The harry party, which walked past them but didn’t talk to them and on this basis they have judged that we weren’t very friendly so I i-85 percent of people who join a new religious organization do so because of a friend who was already involved so it means that the membership of an organization has swollen. Friendship and it’s decreased through lack of friendship so we are friendly people. It’s just how to get people to feel that we are friendly and I think there is you know that we we must want people’s company stay in touch with them. Don’t forget them we need to make friends with the people that are important for them at least be civil, but that. It means different things to different people, and I think our approach has to be, according to the people that the person that we find in in front of us so maybe we can have that picture now because one of those the picture with the big triangle, yes, maybe it’s a good way of putting it while I’m pulling it up, I just wanna ask a kind of apprehension comes up.

I often find for devotees santiago right give up the association of worldly people. So there’s this apprehension that until the guys like got their on the t lock is there then I really can’t get so friendly so close, especially with their their extend. Connections what to speak or even themselves?

Yeah well here. Here’s where here’s where a little sanskrit comes in order because in the sanskrit language, which is our mother tongue there are seven words for friendship. And a hierarchy of friendship all the way from noting acquaintance and you know staying in touch and sending a christmas card to someone all the way up to you know a student who was aa friend, who’s like my my brother from another mother, but there are different grades of friendship and I would suggest that the assets that we are warned to avoid is the seventh. Of friendship, which is eating together joking together sharing ideas listening like that and the first and second level of friendship is something more in the order of. A polite affiliation with the person what a problem, I’d say one time, he said. You should send them a newsletter or send them a magazine, he said, just to know that you are still alive just to know that you care and iiii think that there’s different different levels and as of course it takes experience and it takes you know caution. But sometimes I think I think we may worry more than is necessary. So don’t. Be too worried unless of course, you really feel tempted to share in their lifestyle and then back away but a certain healthy caution is is good but too much fear will paralyze the preaching movement. Love that answer or constipated, which is in some ways. More uncomfortable. Yeah. So I’m going to share my screen. What what was the did you wanna give us the seven step there or? You know what it is is is that in this is something that’s being prepared by the g bc sb t. It is a it is a diagram, maybe the picture is big enough for everybody to see, but it’s just a sort of a flow chart of different stages in a person’s journey towards. A vigorous participation in Krishna consciousness at the top, you have the two levels seeds and contact the seeds is indirect exposure where a person hears about us but hasn’t met us. The next stage is to contact us that they may do through book distribution festivals interaction with devotees that they know in the locality and the next the next sort of four sections. Are when a person begins considering they’ve heard something they want to explore that, but they often come to us and they go to another yoga group and when they come to us, they say what do you think about the such and under people and when they go to the such and under people, they think what do you think of the Hare Krishna people and they’re comparing and contrasting because gone of the days in the 1970s when we were the only show in town now, we’re just part of this multi a multiverse. Of spirituality they can contact anybody anywhere and sometimes they find they like the the swami such and such people and they like the Hare Krishna people for the food and the care team. But they like the philosophy of swami search and search. So they’re comparing and contrasting and then if they take up the practices. Gradually that transformation becomes rapid until a point of commitment where they actually commit themselves in some way the next stage after commitment is sort of advocacy where they they take it upon themselves having bought into Hare Krishna lifestyle to share it with someone else. Now, if you show the other picture, you’ll see that a lot of people don’t quite make make it all the way to advocacy that was the that’s the one. Yeah so that one shows on the right hand side. You’ve got the flow chart showing the gradual transformation but the big picture is of a funnel shaped or inverted triangle shaped. Sort of a population diagram, it’s like a marketing funnel. They call it a sales funnel out of all the people that you advertise to the of all the people that you contact only a few people take up the product and of the people that take up the product only become some people a lesser number of people become regular users of the product and gradually gradually tilt. You get the real hardcore sales people. At the bottom, so I’d like to suggest that at one time ten to 15% of people involved in Krishna consciousness may become um. Responsible caretakers of the legacy and share it with the next generation and ii like to describe that as um, you know sort of the. The sort of averages that we get we we I did a festival program eventually with who me into joining and it’s interesting. Actually I was like a fish on the end of the line because ii was giving many different reasons as to why I couldn’t join in those days in those days join meant to come and live with the high Krishna devotees in there. In their community, I was giving many different reasons and he persuaded me that these reasons were not good enough and I should try harder and eventually I ran out of reasons and ii remained but he took me with him on a festival program the average night we would get 300 to 400 people coming to a festival without any exaggeration ten. Of those people would come to a follow-up meeting and 50% of those who came to a follow-up meeting would become regular practitioners. So we go from 400 to forty. And from forty we go to sort of what I figured out I mentioned about twenty 2020 so in any town in any city, we knew that from 400 coming to a festival, we’d get twenty of the twenty three or four would become initiated the big mistake we made the big classical mistake we made in days gone by boys and girls. Please don’t mistake this as we said, well, you’re now an initiated devoted you should live in the temple. We took the the initiated people away from that town, the group collapsed and it’s gone no longer had any presence in that town. So check out my book came to spread it to every town and village, but we thought we we had to save them from when the town and billy save them from every town and village and bring them to the temple where they would be safe. We’re on average, they lived for 3 years before they left us to go back to every village and. It wasn’t such a practical growth at one time in 1970, he said, he said in 18 days, he said you could conquer britain because the george harrison record had just been released, he said with this level of popularity, he said, you could conquer britain in 18 days, but ii will teach you how but so we have to have a little systematize of our outreach and preaching and mission it’s a scientific as you like it to be but it’s with the heart but with you know scientific analysis of figures and being very careful to see where you place your efforts because a time is very precious for us. Resources are financial resources very precious to us. So how are you preach? What you preach who you preach to is subject of vigorous. Review and and constant analysis yeah, and maybe that brings us. I love the the synthesis there and especially the point about taking people out of their natural environment. You brought up the bram example and how maha himself was advocating for people to stay put and simply apply the teachings and we we made that mistake of not really following that for a period of time. Yeah. So it’s wonderful points you’re bringing and and you keep using this word preaching. So maybe it is time to bring up that that idea that this is the kind of like dirty word now it’s a majority of people don’t. Don’t wanna be involved with preaching how is that healthy? How do we change that is there? Another word should we rebrand it? How do we get around this awkwardness? Well? I yeah preach preaches.

I mean I grew up in a methodist family and my grandfather was a methodist preacher so whenever I think of the term preach, I think of my grandfather, so it’s it has a warm and fuzzy feeling for me but I understand it may not be that for everybody else ii think the english language changes like. Language preaches an english word. It can be good or bad, depending on how you use it preach actually means to exhort a person to to try to persuade them to lift them up to a higher level of spirituality or religious practice or belief and it actually means to preach to someone means to preach to people who have chosen to come to that church to listen to you speak so when you preach you you’re preaching to the converted so in that sense preaching. Feel good about it otherwise they wouldn’t be there, however, you know you you you you go into a church and you know what the guys is gonna say because it’s a christian church so don’t be upset if they tell you to be a better christian. But that’s what you paid for you paid to go there. You know you go you go to see a movie. You know. It’s a it’s a crime thriller movie don’t protest that it was the wrong movie you you made the choice you you paid it so. The preaching is also used to indicate teachings given as part of missionary work for people who don’t believe so when it’s used in that context, it’s persuasion. We’re exhorting a person to join something believe in something that they don’t already. So there’s resistance so when people haven’t asked you to speak to them haven’t asked you to persuade them or convince them or tell them about a wonderful future that can be theirs if they only join you don’t expect. There’s resistance in the the word preach has a negative connotation. The word preach is actually a christian word, and it’s one of many christian words that that we use in is today because of proper parts. Former connection with a christian dominated christian culture in british india. Just like we use the word incarnation or or reincarnation incarnation as a christian word, it’s not. It’s not good for us to use the word incarnation rather than the word avatar cuz it means something different or we say back to home back to god that came originally from a christian preacher. But he said when he decided to use it even the word g bc governing body commission. It’s a british invention to describe the.

Body of the indian railways, so it’s a it’s you know we have a lot of baggage with with preaching and a lot of english words that we use but now christian preachers have gone to the south of india and they’ve set up churches. There’s a lot of christians there and the preachers preach, but of course, people don’t speak english so the word they use for preach in india right now. In a christian church is the minister is giving the so you’ve got christians in india using a sanskrit word and you’ve got sanskrit faith communities in the west using a christian word. So the juries out on whether we should change the word to make it something that we feel more friendly with and I’m I’m okay with using the word the fact that use the word means that you won’t feel comfortable. And changing it anytime soon but interesting that the word the english we’re preaching may come from the sanskrit word which means which means the same thing but yeah, I think we have a duty to. You know, as we said at the beginning to modulate the way we present ourselves to others and if that means not using certain trigger words and there’s a lot of trigger words because it’s 2021 and people are very very very easily triggered. Yeah. By is gone philosophy teachings our culture, I mean everything is a potential trigger so maybe the new rule coming from the g bc was don’t trigger people and your presentation of Krishna consciousness, but you know we can’t change everything because that means changing something which is eternal. You know if you come up with another word like outreach or transmission or or or communications or teachings, then I’m fine with that. I know my my daughter genevieve she there’s certain trigger words that she doesn’t she. She just doesn’t use anymore like chan chant, she says. It’s a trigger word. I say why why is chant a trigger word, she says, because it’s it invokes a sort of adherence. A belief system so when you chant you you you’re automatically telling people to become part of a religious system, but if you use it if you would if you use the word recite it it doesn’t have the same connotation. Of course, if you say the word saying that’s a much friendlier way to say Hare Krishna a chant chance this is you know so I’m I’m old. I’m over sixty so if you tell me, there’s a better english word to use for preach. I will say my dear please go with that do the same thing. Do the same thing but use a different word. I don’t know I really don’t thank you. That’s a wonderful kind of laying out of the the mind field there I wanted to go back to this discussion about the temples and and as you there was a of misunderstanding that was there for a long time that the the everyone who’s serious comes to live in the temple and I think we’ve kind of gotten out of that as a society we’ve we’ve been forced out of that as a society. Yeah, there’s another challenge. Though in this idea that going to the temple is the goal of of reaching out to someone outreach preaching etcetera getting them into the temple and to to provide a kind of support from my counter argument here and I’d like to hear your thoughts one christian organization here in america that I’ve studied they have a congregation of 40000 they’re their church building holds like 15000 maximand they they have a whole as you said systematic way of reaching out to people and again this is america. This is christian philosophy. So nobody surprised by anything they’re saying to them.

But in their step wise progression of bringing someone in they don’t ask them to come to the church for 2 years. It’s a kind of initiation once they enter the church building that has happened after they’ve gone to countless dinners at people’s homes personally gone into little study groups for the bible and kind of been developed to the place where once you’re walking through those church doors, you’re you know that you’re part of the club now and you accept that you appreciate that what’s. Role of the temples today in a healthy preaching mission for is. Oh how long have you got? Well, since you’re we’ve got a while. Well, you know, I think our our understanding of what the institution is is very outdated because the you know the the the the plan should have changed a long time ago because the the battle changed you know they say soon as the battle begins, your plans should change iii think that if there’s one difficulty that is has is coping with its success you know we. Tend to look at all this gun’s failures. You know that there’s that with difficulty and leadership and financial problems that we’re here and a few things that we we we. We don’t tell anybody over there but really it’s been a success if you analyze the progress. But we still as part of our preservation of the legacy, we’re still sort of thinking of ourselves as a network of matchless gifts. Stores you know with shaving headed people at such like that. I mean that changed maybe a quarter of a century ago. Yeah, you know, but but we don’t recognize that I mean, I think that’s part of the legacy of the past where I mean I know when I was 1718 1920 when he said Hare Krishna temple, you met a community and that was anywhere between eight to twenty people. Average there was some big places like chicago, new york, la london and some other places. But on average between eight and twenty people at the height of our development when power was with us. We have we’ve sort of kept on that vision to the point where if you look at any bb t book you will see a definition of a gone as it’s gone as a network of temple’s farms, restaurants and schools around the world. It’s not that’s not what we are it hasn’t been that way for many many years we are much bigger than that so failure to understand when you’ve been successful means that you you you, you know you won’t. Be able to cope with your success so the fact that we you know we went from 100 temples to 600 or something that’s wonderful and temples will always be a place for as god said people to come and learn they learn how to be to purify their lives that we count on the fingers they learn how to purify lives. They learn the philosophy they’ve but they don’t sit there until they’ve got back to they learn you know. That is essential philosophy of the essence of then said when they’ve taken devos association, they go home and they do the same thing in their home. This was always the plan, but we sort of didn’t maybe identify so much with that plan because success is obviously when you make a person become a brat, but I would say success is. When you know the right time to send the premature home. Because we we have some 4040 year old 45 year olds who really should have been sent home a long time ago because it’s and so the movement has you know the temples seem to be not in many cases and excuse me if I’m saying the wrong thing here, but there seems to be. Many temples that are not as dynamic as they could be and we have to keep things flowing in order to keep that dynamism that sense of movement. Otherwise it becomes very stale so the real role of the temples is our training centers that places the ashram for spiritual death they are places where people can learn the techniques and teachings for becoming missionaries themselves. But I would like to suggest that are places where people prepare to be married and that is a revolutionary concept that life is a preparation for marriage, but hey look in the time and the shasta and you know to test my theory while I was in india and in south india, where I go quite a few times iii visited two traditional gurus where they were learning the arts, I wrote rising a three. The morning doing fire every morning and doing daily worship etcetera but in the afternoon, I said well, he said I’m learning architecture and my friend is learning computer science, I said, but this is a traditional guru and he looked at me as if I was foolish, he said. Yes. But ii won’t be here all the time he was he was struggling to to get the concept over to the is man that people don’t stay in a guru cooler so when we say.

When we say asher, without mentioning any names of any christian organizations, I see one very successful christian organization is to you know, keep people for two or 3 years on an intense focused spiritual development course that sets them up for life and sends them home to where their uncles and aunties can see to the the rest of their life in you know it is. A supportive environment yeah, iii can’t otherwise ii see that we keep people for too long they become bitter because their life isn’t quite working out for some reason they go home and. If they have a home and they they talk about their life when I was a devotee when I am living in the temple, I’m being a devote they see is the same thing when I actually speaking if this Krishna consciousness does not work for a person who does not live in the temple then it’s it’s not working if it’s something that only works when you live in a temple, then it’s useless and and i. It’s not useless ii, you know, ii know it’s a great gift to humanity, but it has to become successful where the person lives if every if every town and village is to mean anything at all of ma’s mission is to mean anything at all. Then we should see people living their lives in every town and village taking up Krishna consciousness. But a failure is when we haven’t coped with the fact that people. Don’t neatly live two miles from a temple and that’s the problem we set up a temple and we expect that people am I getting to irate. We we set up a temple and we expect that new members will come from that particular city well they may do, but perhaps they’ll come from twenty miles away or forty miles away or fifty miles away and can you support them? So what does an organization look like that supports people where they live? It certainly means that we become more regional the metropolitan so often this is a metropolitan phenomenon where we are in. Major cities and the suburbs, but beyond that, we have no plan but we distribute books everywhere. So if a person reads a book and they become interested but they live in you know. 5060 7100 Miles from a temple. What is it that you can do as a temple to reach out to that person? If you find if you find what it is then you’ll be successful. And it’s not you see. It’s not that people aren’t doing that. Ii know there’s very good, very very good programs and it’s gone at the moment that put all the all the purity of the teachings with the relevant and accessible packaging. They have a geographical plan. They have a systemic a systematic plan for transformation of a person’s commitment over years. There are such places, but I think the few and far between. And ii, just think that you know we we need to take advantage of the pioneering work that’s being done by these very I’d say gold standard preaching centers and to use those and to copy copy ideas sharing is very good. Very good system is that okay. It’s just a few thoughts.

Thank you for that’s such a wonderful exposition of that question. I’m gonna remove myself from the stream after asking this question just to try to get closer to a better wifi connection. Okay. I think I was coming and I was coming in and out a little bit but you’ve made yeah, I’m tempted to keep going down that direction that you’re we’re with cultivating people where they are and the centers is training but there’s actually another natural segway there to something that we we wanted to bring in it. Opening up, you know he’s a galarian in the best way everybody can come and be involved and yet we also saw through ma’s example that if somebody made a mistake they were remove from the sun to some degree and he he curated certain environments where certain people weren’t allowed to be for various reasons and in the in the mood of spreading maha mission far and wide. There is this egalitarian ethic, but is there rum? Is there a need for in our community to be a little exclusive in certain environments either by removing people who’ve done some transgression or just in in recognizing keeping such as some keeping the like minded association alive. How does one navigate that dynamic next to the egalitarian idea? Yeah. One one phenomenon that I’ve seen over the years is that because my mission was for the was for without discrimination. Then. Something some phenomenon has developed whereby we we we we we preached to the poor or the low spirited the disenfranchised and we try to justify only preaching to that. Section of society with the idea that’s movement is for everyone and I’ve seen this with on some occasions we we try to artificially. Let me let me be careful how I speak here we. Let me give you an example, probably came to back in 1972. I believe it was now maharaj was the temple president the golden years the temple was filled with people. We were you know it was george harrison. It was celebrity endorsement for excellence. You know the beatles.

It was you know I was in the country. It was the temple was packed with people jumping jumping anymore. Everybody thought well, this is a great success because we’re bringing people and the road to said um, he said you have to go to the universities and find leaders find intelligent men who can become leaders of the future in our movement, he said., He said how much longer will they go on jump in this is robert’s words jumping jumping jumping ball ball ball. This this is for me, this was a sort of a very interesting contrast to the idea of egalitarian reaching out to everyone. But in 1972 was still building a movement and he really needed what does he say thoughtful intelligent first class men and and women and you know so., He said movement must be preached without discrimination and there is actually an interesting episode where it sends netting on the back to bangor as we know don’t come to the every year get married. And preach, and he said, make sure you preach to the poorest class of people. And then and then at the same time we see can we say deliberately preaching to sarah who was the best philosopher ramadan roy, who was closely associated with the royal family to rupert and who were the ministers of the noah of bengal we see that percussion on the who was the chief be so we see the chief did both things. Of my observations is that devotees find it more comfortable to preach down than they do to preach up. And this has a disconcerting effect in that if I’m from should we say a certain social run of society? I won’t feel comfortable in speaking Krishna consciousness and the values of taking up Krishna consciousness to someone who’s on a social run above me and the spiral effect of that is that when person a speaks down to person b person b speaks down to person c then. It’s capabilities in the the intelligent thoughtful leadership department sort of spirals downwards when actually it should be spiraling upwards and outwards at the same time. So it’s just an observation. Ii. Don’t know whether that is a class thing coming from a british british man, but we have to be speaking to leaders of society influential people and also influential people as well, you know. At every endeavor needs capital. In space and leadership management. Now one of our members here in this country has took it upon themselves to try to create a school for which would have an ethos of sort of a spiritual ethos of Krishna conscious ethos. Krishna school then the government stepped in and said well, if you’re going to do that here’s 12000000 pounds for you to do it with good idea. And so now he’s done another school and another school and another school and another school we’re up to 200000000 government funding 200000000 pounds of government funding for what is extensively schools that people will hear the holy name of Krishna now make no mistake. They’re not temples. Some of them have got temples in every classroom little shrines. It’s not a place where they will they’ll get they’ll get a good british. Education. But they will also you know when they sit down to take the vegetarian lunch, which is served to them all the children black white hindu and muslim children will sit together sometimes to the constellation of the muslim parents later on in life later on in the day when they go home and say the same prayers they will say and when they greet the day with go prayers so they’re getting that as well as a good british education paid for by the government and I would say. One of the results of preaching up rather than preaching down and ii hope. I’m not I hope I’m understood in the that the the way that I’m intended so your question, though, was based on who do we who do we accept them as a possible occasions where we have to remove someone from our company well? It’s it’s ii would see it as very dynamic. We’re constantly jocelyn for position. I tell people generally that if you’re a any devote should be chanting sixteen rounds, four regulated principles. This is if they’re initiated if they’re committed, we have two things initiated and committed committed devoted chance four rounds and you know they do the principles as they can, but you should also be able to say that you’re looking after ten people. That’s all and if each. Looks after ten people and each of them look after ten people, then we have a dynamic now which do I look after this one’s become a little troublesome. Okay now you’re down to nine.

Now you take another one and add that person to the ten and you’re looking after ten. So you keep a balance always looking after ten people and ten people look at this is not a new idea, said how one teacher is looking after thousands in the ancient guru now we have a. It’s gone bb t painting where sandy mooney is looking after Krishna and and his wife is standing by a little cottage, actually sandy money was looking after 17000 students. I promise that how one guru call a teacher is looking after so many, he said, because he looks after ten and they look after ten and they look after ten right there, he says. This is how looked after 60000 disciples. He only spoke to ten disciples that each of them looked after the others. It’s how an army works and incidentally, it’s how’s guru back to conceived of the. Your mouth working because he initiated ten. 10000 Or more than 10000 people only a very small minority of them lived in the the temple in the mud. How did he look after the others? Well, each disciple was looked after by someone called an and they were the mentor counselor, call them what you like, but they looked after them and he he usually he would look after a number of them and the who looked after him where he was. To someone by someone called the maha you get the picture is looking after is looking after the but who looks after the mas well, it’s the san. Eighteen ??? Back to who looks after the we are so with this pyramid system, you know you’ve got a system whereby everybody. Means their their progress, their spiritual progress means something to somebody else nobody gets forgotten. Everybody gets looked after and they know of a named individual that they can approach with any problem or any doubt or any question that they’ve got and I know who my named individual is you know who you’re named individuals and we don’t have to get into a whole guru thing with flowers and Krishnas and bowing down. It’s a friend, just like was talking to one of his secretaries. And probably was telling him about the school that he used go to in calcutta. And then the devotees just sort of said well, I my school teacher was like this, you know and then he caught himself and said, I’m sorry bro, but he said I’ve just been treating you as if you’re a friend to sharing with you my idea of my recollections of history, I should have been probably said no, he said, do not worry, he said the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple is one of friendship, he said, but just occasionally, I have to remind you. Who is the good and who is the disciple and he said, but the relationship is one of friendship. So no Krishnas, no flowers, no poetry, no birthday cakes unless you really want to of course and I’m sure they’re grateful, but the point is it’s friendship. And with this system whether they live in the temple or whether they don’t everybody can be cared for.

But the question is who do you belong to who have you put your spiritual life in the hands of who cares for you? Who’s your friend? These are the questions that need to be answered for everybody. So you’re chanting yes, very nice. You’re reading very nice who’s looking after you? Oh nobody’s looking after you that should really. To us as a, you know something that needs to be you know taking care of if no one’s looking after you then swami swami, you will look after you all the big the big church with 40000 members and we are very good at making devotees the catholic church, the vatican in rome gave us a compliment, they said. We just don’t understand how you’re getting so many young men in italy to take up. Celibacy, they said we we can’t do it anymore. We was I said what is your secret? And I said, well, it’s probably that’s books so the vatican set up a department for studying prophet’s books. Imagine that well so the point is that you know we make people but the catholic church knows about how to hang on to people we don’t hang on to people as much as we should even the no, I will name drop the mormon church one of our. It might even have been you. I don’t know, but one one devoted his brother was a woman and he became a devotee and they said, you know there’s one thing about the Hare Krishna that we we really like as you’re really good. You’re really good at preaching. And, but there’s one question we have that we just can’t figure out. I said. Why don’t you look after your people? You know if we had young people coming to us in the numbers that you have, we’d really have a program for looking after them. Why don’t you look after them and ii just think that we have developed a culture where young people coming to check out Hare Krishna are of dispensable, you know we we kinda think there’ll be another another batch along very soon and you can ii would suggest my dear vice you can only do that for so long when. Himself says it’s gone may not be the vehicle for spreading to every town and village. And if that day comes then someone else will you know someone else will do it and that will be a great shame.

I think because we have legacy for doing that we can make it work, but it really really is the heart connection that is important and that the friendship connection that does not mean of course that we should not have rigorous philosophy and training and purity and humility. All those things have to be there. But. We have to stop losing people otherwise they you know if you lose a person they speak about Krishna consciousness and they speak about Krishna consciousness to at least twelve other people. So it’s gone, then cast a shadow, a long shadow that goes to every town and village, and it says hi christians. Yeah. They’re nice. But then they stop writing they stop calling me you know I had some issues and. They said a few things I didn’t cuz you know you have to the best preachers in is gonna have to protect people from speaking to the worst preachers. We have some isn’t it.

You’re speaking music to my ears. This has been one of my favorite conversations I’ve had the privilege to take part of so many of the things that you’re sharing are insights. I’ve gotten some clue in my few years trying to do something and to hear them in this mature realized way. I hope so much that everyone, this discussion you know you’re yourself speaking this was so wonderful!

I say you know in all humility that you’re hearing from someone who’s made an awful lot of mistakes in my spiritual life personally and in my preaching and missionary work. So if my mistakes can help you not to repeat the mistakes, then my history will contribute towards the future and with that, I’ll be very very happy. Alright, Hare Krishna.

What is so good great understanding. Thank you again. Thank you. I’m gonna come up with any excuse to have you back and for me to be the person that gets to interview you my pleasure a wonderful discussion. Thank you dear devotees for joining us today. Please keep an eye out on the GBC SPT page over the next few weeks leading up to gore. We have many more wonderful devotees like his grace and to join us and bring us deep into the pages of the.