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The Role of the ‘Second Class’ Guru

by Administrator / 6 Jul 2021 / Published in Articles  /  

By Krishna dharma das

One of the first things a serious spiritual aspirant learns is the necessity of surrendering to a spiritual master. ‘Try to learn the truth by accepting a bona-fide guru’, the Bhagavad-gita tells us. Many other Vedic texts exhort us similarly. These are frequently cited by Srila Prabhupada throughout his books. It would be an extremely inattentive student who failed to grasp the idea that without a spiritual master we cannot advance in spiritual life. We sing this every morning in the gurvastakam prayers, and I don’t think any devotee will dispute the point.

The question of who to accept is more of an issue. In Srila Prabhupada we saw the perfect example and, as the saying goes, he is a hard act to follow. He accepted some 5000 disciples, all of whom felt personally connected with him, and through his many books, lectures, letters, conversations and personal example, what to speak of the institution he created, he perfectly guided them. I doubt there is a single disciple who will say that his guidance and shelter were in any way insufficient.

From scripture we can understand that Srila Prabhupada was an uttama adhikari or maha bhagavata, a devotee on the highest level of spiritual attainment. This is defined as follows:

Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said, “A first-class Vaishnava is he whose very presence makes others chant the holy name of Krishna.” Chaitanya Charitamrita (CC) Madhya Lila 16.74.

In his purport to this verse Srila Prabhupada extensively describes the qualities of the first-class devotee. He has unadulterated love for Krishna, sees the Lord everywhere, is ‘enlightened in self-realisation’, expert in Vedic literature and converts others to Krishna consciousness. He cites Sanatana Goswami, who says, “…an uttama-adhikari, (is) a first-class Vaishnava, a topmost Vaishnava who can deliver the whole world and turn everyone to Krishna consciousness.”

The spiritual master is also considered identical with Krishna:

“In his prayers to the spiritual master, Srila Vishvanatha Chakravarti Ṭhakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaishnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient literatures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Ṭhakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Ṭhakura and other unalloyed Vaishnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.” CC Adi Lila 1.46 purport

And an associate of the gopis:

The spiritual master is very dear, because he is expert in assisting the gopis, who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Radha and Krishna’s conjugal loving affairs within the groves of Vrndavana. I offer my most humble obeisance unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master. Gurvastakam Verse 6

It can hardly be disputed that Srila Prabhupada fits this description. Such great personalities are obviously rare, and we have been extremely fortunate to find him. However, now he has ended his manifest pastimes and entered samadhi, what should we do? Should we search for another maha bhagavata like him? From studying his books, it seems that we must. He often gives such an instruction, as with the following:

“The guru must be situated on the topmost platform of devotional service. There are three classes of devotees, and the guru must be accepted from the topmost class.” CC Madhya Lila 24.330.

Atmavit means a self-realized soul or bona fide spiritual master. Unless one is self-realized and knows what his relationship with the Supersoul is, he cannot be a bona fide spiritual master. Srimad Bhagavatam (SB) 3.28.2

“One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.” Nectar of Instruction Text 5 commentary.

“The summary is that one has to first of all seek the association of pure devotees who not only are learned in the Vedanta but are self-realized souls and unalloyed devotees of Lord Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead.” Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.34 purport

So how shall we find such an advanced devotee? We now have many spiritual masters in our society, but I doubt that any of them will claim to be equal to Srila Prabhupada. Nevertheless, he wanted us all to become gurus. There are so many statements to this effect. As early as 1967 he began to make this clear.

“Lord Chaitanya wanted everyone should be a spiritual master provided he follows the order of Lord Chaitanya. The Lord’s mission was to defeat the mayavada philosophy and establish the philosophy of Krishna consciousness because Krishna is the Supreme Lord the Personality of Godhead. anyone following the order of Lord Chaitanya under the guidance of his bonafide representative, can become a spiritual master and I wish that in my absence all my disciples become the bonafide spiritual master to spread Krishna consciousness throughout the whole world. I want it…” (Letter to Madhusudan, 11/2/67)

“Every one of us should become spiritual master because the world is in blazing fire… spiritual master is not a new invention. It is simply following the orders of the spiritual master. So, all my students present here who are feeling so much obliged… I am also obliged to them because they are helping me in this missionary work. at the same time, I shall request them all to become spiritual master. Every one of you should be spiritual master next. and what is their duty? Whatever you are hearing from me, whatever you are learning from me, you have to distribute the same in toto without any addition or alteration. then all of you become the spiritual master. that is the science of becoming spiritual master. ‚[…]don’t be satisfied that you have understood [and] that’s all. no. This should be distributed. just like in my old age i have come to your country carrying the order of my spiritual master to distribute it, you are all young boys and girls, take this message and distribute it. the whole suffering humanity will be happy. That is our mission. thank you very much.” (Vyasa-puja address, Hamburg 9/5/69)

And he continued such instructions to the end of his preaching:

“So, we got this information from his divine grace Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, and that knowledge is still going on. you are receiving through his servant. And in future the same knowledge will go to your students. This is called parampara system. evam parampara prap… it is not that you have become a student and you’ll remain student. No. One day you shall become also guru and make more students, more students, more. That is Chaitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission, not that perpetually… yes, one should remain perpetually a student, but he has to act as guru. That is the mission of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.” (Lecture, Hyderabad 12/10/76)

This is Lord Chaitanya’s instruction, as Srila Prabhupada so often cited.

“Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Śrī Krishna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land.” CC Madhya Lila 7.128

Sometimes he specified that he would authorise some of his disciples as guru, saying also that they should pass a Bhaktivedanta degree. It never happened, of course, unless you count the eleven ritviks he appointed in 1977. Nonetheless he repeatedly said throughout his preaching that all his followers should become gurus themselves.

So what should we make of this? Some argue that the instructions to become guru pertain only to siksha, but sastra equates diksha and siksha:

One should know the instructing spiritual master to be the Personality of Krishna. Lord Krishna manifests Himself as the Supersoul and as the greatest devotee of the Lord.

Purport: There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service. CC Adi 1.47

The Lord also says in the verse cited above (CC Mad 7.128) that by becoming a spiritual master one should ‘try to liberate everyone in the land.’ Siksha or diksha, it is a grave responsibility.

We also find the Lord instructing that anyone who knows the science of Krishna can become guru with the following:

“Whether one is a brāhmaṇa, a sannyāsī or a śūdra — regardless of what he is — he can become a spiritual master if he knows the science of Krishna.” CC Madhya 8.128

And in the purport Srila Prabhupada says:

“Sometimes a caste guru says that ye krishna-tattva-vetta, sei guru haya means that one who is not a brahmaṇa may become a siksha-guru or a vartma-pradarshaka-guru but not an initiator guru. According to such caste gurus, birth and family ties are considered foremost. However, the hereditary consideration is not acceptable to Vaishnavas. The word guru is equally applicable to the vartma-pradarshaka-guru, siksha-guru and diksha-guru. Unless we accept the principle enunciated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, this Krishna consciousness movement cannot spread all over the world.” CC Madhya 8.128 purport.

The question that arises then is do I have to be a maha bhagavata? If sastra enjoins that one must accept such a devotee as guru, then surely it behoves me to attain such a status before accepting the role. Well, not necessarily, it seems. Firstly, we have already seen from the above statement from NOI 5 that, “A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples,” but it goes on to say that the disciples, “cannot advance very well.” So, who would accept such a guru? Srila Prabhupada says that the disciples of such gurus should be on the ‘same platform’ as them, but he ends the commentary with a strong recommendation that one accept an uttama adhikari.

There are other places where Srila Prabhupada talks about ‘second class gurus’, as with the following:

“As stated hereinbefore, there are three kinds of devotees of the Lord. The first-class devotee does not at all see anyone who is not in the service of the Lord, but the second-class devotee makes distinctions between devotees and nondevotees. The second-class devotees are therefore meant for preaching work, and as referred to in the above verse, they must loudly preach the glories of the Lord. The second-class devotee accepts disciples from the section of third-class devotees or nondevotees. Sometimes the first-class devotee also comes down to the category of the second-class devotee for preaching work.” SB 2.3.21 purport.

Here Srila Prabhupada appears to be saying that it is mostly the second-class devotees, the madhyama adhikaris, who preach and accept disciples. Only ‘sometimes’ does the first class or uttama bhakta do so. There is further evidence about these two types of gurus in Easy Journeys to Other Planets. There Srila Prabhupada provides a list, which is a paraphrase of the instructions given by Lord Chaitanya to Sanatana Goswami, found in Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya Lila Chapter 22 Verse 115 onwards. Below I quote points 3 and 13:

“3. The candidate must be prepared to satisfy the spiritual master in every way. A bona fide spiritual master who is fully cognizant of the methods of spiritual science, learned in the spiritual scriptures such as the Bhagavad-gita, Vedanta Srimad-Bhagavatam and Upanishads, and who is also a realized soul who has made a tangible connection with the Supreme Lord, is the transparent medium by which the willing candidate is led to the path of the Vaikunthas. The spiritual master must be satisfied in all respects, because simply by his good wishes a candidate can make wonderful progress along the path. 13. He must not take on unlimited disciples. This means that a candidate who has successfully followed the first twelve items can also become a spiritual master himself, just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples.” Easy Journeys to Other Planets, Chapter 1 Non-material Worlds.

Clearly then there is a role for the ‘second-class’ guru, who is here compared to a ‘monitor’ in a class. This monitor is specifically an Indian phenomenon, but as far as I can tell it is like a tutor in university, who helps other students understand the teachings of the professor. What I understand from this is that if one is not himself a professor or first-class devotee, described in point three above, then he or she should assist others to comprehend the lessons of the more advanced teacher.

It requires honesty on the part of the guru. Is he or she “a realized soul who has made a tangible connection with the Supreme Lord”? This I understand means one who has realised their eternal relationship with the Lord, i.e. attained svarupa siddhi, Krishna prema. If not, then they must accept the monitor role. Otherwise, if they act as if they were the first-class guru, then they may become guilty of providing “insufficient guidance”, as stated in the Nectar of Instruction above.

How can a ‘second-class’ guru provide sufficient guidance? I believe they must directly connect their disciples to the first-class guru. Of course, every bona-fide guru can only be worthy of the name if they faithfully repeat the instructions of their own spiritual masters, thereby maintaining the line of parampara. But in the case of a non-realised guru, I would see this taking practical shape by their connecting their disciples directly to Srila Prabhupada’s instructions, much more than lecturing them and giving prescriptive instructions of their own. Here is a clue from Srimad Bhagavatam:

“Here is the remedy for eliminating all inauspicious things within the heart, which are considered to be obstacles in the path of self-realization. The remedy is the association of the Bhagavatas. There are two types of Bhagavatas, namely the book Bhagavata and the devotee Bhagavata. Both the Bhagavatas are competent remedies, and both of them or either of them can be good enough to eliminate the obstacles. A devotee Bhagavata is as good as the book Bhagavata because the devotee Bhagavata leads his life in terms of the book Bhagavata and the book Bhagavata is full of information about the Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees, who are also Bhagavatas. Bhagavata book and person are identical.” SB 1.2.18

Srila Prabhupada and his teachings are identical, so we can associate with him through his books. This is confirmed here:

“If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master’s instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple.” CC Adi 1.35 purport

Again, it is critical that we get the association of the topmost devotee, not just the second class one:

“The summary is that one has to first of all seek the association of pure devotees who not only are learned in the Vedanta but are self-realized souls and unalloyed devotees of Lord Sri Krishna, the Personality of Godhead.” S.B. 1.5.34 purport

This means hearing from them:

“One should take shelter of a pure devotee, who has nothing to do with this material world but is simply engaged in devotional service. By serving him only, one can transcend the qualitative material condition. In this verse it is recommended (yogesvara-upasanaya) that one serve the lotus feet of the topmost yogi, or the devotee. To serve the topmost devotee means to hear from him about the glories of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” SB 4.22.22

My understanding is that if the guru has not yet attained the highest level and awakened their eternal loving relationship with Krishna, they should be mostly engaged in helping their disciples understand Srila Prabhupada’s books, which should be seen as the primary means of deliverance. This is confirmed by the GBC:

“Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is the original guru whose Divine Grace descends through the medium of the guru parampara. As such, a devotee is ultimately delivered by Sri Krishna acting through a combination of various manifestations of His mercy. These include, but are not limited to, the chaitya guru, Srila Prabhupada, the guru parampara, one’s diksha guru, other siksha gurus, the Holy Name, sastra, and the nine processes of devotional service. Within these cooperative elements, Srila Prabhupada, as the Founder-Acharya of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, is the preeminent guru for all members of ISKCON. All members of ISKCON, for all generations, are encouraged to seek shelter of Srila Prabhupada. All members of ISKCON are entitled and encouraged to have a personal relationship with Srila Prabhupada through his books, teachings, service, and his ISKCON society.” GBC Statement on Position of Srila Prabhupada. Resolution 303, adopted February, 2013

Srila Prabhupada often told us that in his absence we should continue to associate with him via his books:

“Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die? Prabhupada: “I will never die. I shall live forever in my books, and you will utilize. Press conference– July 16, 1975, San Francisco.

“So you European, American students, you take full advantage of this Vedic culture. I am therefore so much laboring hard that we, before my leaving this body, I may give you some books you can enjoy after my death. So utilize it. Utilize it. Read every sloka nicely, try to understand the meaning, discuss amongst yourselves. Nityam bhagavata-sevaya. That is our mission. Nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18]. Abhadra, we have got so many dirty things within our heart. So these dirty things can be cleansed simply by Krishna consciousness.” Srila Prabhupada lecture Srimad Bhagavatam 1.1.1 – New York, July 6, 1972:

“Therefore our method is to accept the perfect guru to understand the subject matter. But still, if one reads the books as it is from authorities, there is chance of understanding.” Room conversation – April 22, 1976, Melbourne

I believe this should be our culture. Establish Srila Prabhupada as our principal teacher by instigating regular ishta gosthi discussion sessions around his books. Those accepting the role of guru can act as tutors in this regard, joining such discussions and assisting their disciples to go more deeply into the books. This means that such gurus cannot have vast numbers of disciples, maybe only a handful, but this is in keeping with the instructions of Lord Chaitanya that Srila Prabhupada explains above in Easy Journeys, (the relevant verse in Chaitanya Charitamrita is Madhya Lila 22.118). If you are a second-class guru then you should not accept a lot of disciples. Even if unable to sit with their disciples, at least the gurus should ensure that the disciples are regularly discussing Srila Prabhupada’s books. When they have doubts or questions that they cannot answer through such discussions then they can discuss these directly with their gurus, who can then help clear their doubts and strengthen their faith. But everything should be centred around Srila Prabhupada’s books. That is where our instructions should come from.

How to conduct such discussions is another important topic. They should be of the vada type, seeking to establish the truth rather than a debate or didactic ‘top-down’ lecturing by a non-realised soul. Passive hearing should be avoided. Srila Prabhupada says:

“To hear and explain them is more important than reading them. One can assimilate the knowledge of the revealed scriptures only by hearing and explaining. Hearing is called sravana, and explaining is called kirtana. The two processes of sravana and kirtana are of primary importance to progressive spiritual life. Only one who has properly grasped the transcendental knowledge from the right source by submissive hearing can properly explain the subject.” SB 1.1.6 purport.

“Hearing is solidified by the process of chanting. One who has perfectly heard from the perfect source becomes convinced about the all-pervading Personality of Godhead and thus becomes enthusiastic in glorifying the Lord.” SB 2.2.36 purport

By such a practise we will train devotees to think for themselves, to bring out instructions and guidance from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings rather than looking up to others to tell them what to do. Teach them how to think, not what to think. Make them ‘independently thoughtful’, as Srila Prabhupada wanted. He said:

“So especially you (leaders) must encourage the students to read our books throughout the day as much as possible, and give them all good advice how to understand the books, and inspire them to study the things from every point of view. In this way, by constantly engaging our tongues in the service of the Lord, either by discussing His philosophy or by chanting Hare Krishna, the truth is that Krishna Himself will reveal Himself to us and we shall understand how to do everything properly. Now we have got so many students and so many temples but I am fearful that if we expand too much in this way we shall become weakened and gradually the whole thing will become lost. Just like milk. We may thin it more and more with water for cheating the customer, but in the end it will cease to be any longer milk. Better to boil the milk now very vigorously and make it thick and sweet, that is the best process. So let us concentrate on training our devotees very thoroughly in the knowledge of Krishna consciousness from our books, from tapes, by discussing always, and in so many ways instruct them in the right propositions.” (SPLetter to Hamsaduta, 22nd June, 1972)

There were many such instructions. I think if we can institute a culture with Srila Prabhupada’s books firmly at the centre it will serve many purposes. Devotees’ faith and conviction will grow, they will not be shaken if their second-class spiritual master experiences difficulties, which we have seen, as their main connection will be with Srila Prabhupada, and there will be greater unity in the society. It would not be difficult to implement; devotees would simply require training in how to discuss in a vada fashion, enabling them to make a deep connection with Srila Prabhupada.

In that respect, I and my good wife Cintamani-dhama have put together a set of discussion principles gleaned from Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on our website “improvingsanga.com”. Please take a look and get in touch if you would like to know more.

In service to Srila Prabhupada,

Krishna dharma das

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14 Comments to “ The Role of the ‘Second Class’ Guru”

  1. Patita Pavana das (ACBSP) says :
    Jul 6, 2021 at 10:19 pm

    Thank you for sharing your realizations Krishna dharma prabhu. In my opinion only a very advanced devotee
    could have written this article.

  2. Dusyanta dasa says :
    Jul 7, 2021 at 4:34 pm

    Hare Krishna .
    Unfortunately this comment editorial has a strict length that it will accept for publishing, its the nature of websites such as these, just a very limited amount of space for subjects worthy of spaces such as KD Prabhus presentation. So i was not able to present the scriptural evidence that warranted a subject of this manner. And Srila Prabhupada's Purport that clarified and expanded the text is brilliant.
    From Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 10. Chapter 2. Text 31. is immediately enlightening and 100% applicable to all devotees , which i dont think has ever been instituted in Iskcon since 1977.
    Also in the quote from Cc. Madhya Lila 24.330 Purport the text from the Padma Purana describing the Bona Fide Spiritual master situated on the topmost platform of devotional service, the Uttama Adhikari, is the Diksha Guru exclusively by including the word " Diksitah" in the Text. This would infer the "2nd Class Guru" that you have elaborated on are NOT Diksha Gurus, but a subdivision of the category of Shiksha Guru such as the Vartma Pradarsaka Guru. Just my observations.

  3. Dana C Seamon says :
    Jul 8, 2021 at 3:22 pm

    There a a few cardinal rules. Two of them are:
    1.The Guru must be speaking and acting in accordance with his/ her own Guru.
    2. While tentatively accepting a Guru, the potential disciple must be able to determine the Guru is acting only for their spiritual advancement; the Guru has no selfish motivation in the relationship.

  4. Caitanya Priya dasa says :
    Jul 18, 2021 at 6:32 am

    Guru means teacher.

    The teachers of Prahlāda Mahārāja, Ṣaṇḍa and Amarka,

    SB 7.5.3-guruṇā—by the teachers;
    SB 7.5.10-gurūṇām—all your teachers;
    SB 7.5.19: guruḥ—his teachers;

    A guru is a teacher, one who teaches something to someone who does not know it, even on the material plane.

    No need to be an initiating guru or a first-class devotee.

    Anyone who teaches something even A, B, C is a guru, a teacher, but he is not the sublime guru.

    This guru does not accept disciples, he only teaches what he knows, although this is very basic and elementary.

    Any devotee of any level who teaches is a guru.
    —–
    At other times Srila Prabhupada says that every devotee must qualify to be a spiritual master and accept disciples, but the qualification is to have attained perfection, to be a maha-bhagavata.

    At no time did Srila Prabhupada say that someone who is not a maha-bhagavata should accept disciples.

    Easy Journeys to Other Planets.
    11. One should avoid offenses in the discharge of devotional service and in chanting the holy names.
    12. He should avoid extensive association with nondevotees.
    13. He must not take on unlimited disciples.

    This means that
    a candidate who has SUCCESSFULLY FOLLOWED the first twelve items
    can also become a spiritual master himself,
    just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples."

    Note:SUCCESSFULLY FOLLOWED means, according to point 11, having reached the stage of offenseless chanting or suddha-nama, the result of which is pure devotion, then whoever is successful in these 12 points has become a pure devotee, uttama-adhikari, maha-bhagavata.

    Here Srila Prabhupada clearly speaks of sadhana-siddha and not of a madhyama-adhikari.

    Bg 14.26-māṁ ca yo 'vyabhicāreṇa

    1. Banamala says :
      Jul 21, 2021 at 6:40 am

      Did you read the article carefully? Prabhu quotes Srila Prabhupada saying that a neophyte can also accept disciples, but he can only take them as far as he himself have advanced ”:
      “One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. A neophyte Vaishnava or a Vaishnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master.” Nectar of Instruction Text 5 commentary.

  5. Caitanya Priya dasa says :
    Jul 21, 2021 at 1:09 pm

    .
    Srila Prabhupada says: "You CAN cheat others."
    ( Conversation -January 17, 1974, Hawaii )

    .
    "Can" here mean that Srila Prabhupada authorizes cheating others and it is therefore authorized and correct?
    .
    On the contrary, "can" here means the individual ability to do something even if it is wrong.
    .
    Srila Prabhupada says:

    "A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform CAN also accept disciples," (Upadesamrta 5)
    .
    Here also CAN does not mean authorization or correct option
    but on the contrary it means that
    although that option is illegal and wrong
    as it was said in the previous lines
    yet one has the individual ability to act WHIMSICALLY
    and do such an illegal act.

    In the previous line Srila Prabhupada says :

    "One should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī. " (Upadesamrta 5)

    Here it is clearly stated that
    "A neophyte Vaiṣṇava or
    a Vaiṣṇava situated on the intermediate platform",
    those who have not attained the platform of uttama-adhikārī,
    should not become a spiritual master,
    they should not accept disciples.
    .
    "Should not" means what is wrong to do, what should not be done, what is illegal.

    One should not steal,but one can steal.

    It is said on this verse 5 of the Upadesamrta the drawbacks or deficiencies of such a wrong act:

    "but such disciples must be on the same platform,
    and it should be understood that
    they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life
    under his insufficient guidance from him.
    .
    Srila Prabhupada concludes after this by saying:

    "Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikārī as a spiritual master."

  6. Bh.Alexandar says :
    Aug 12, 2021 at 3:13 pm

    Pranams.Many good points for shure.28.May.77.Reply on direct ? about this is " When I order you become Guru he becomes regular guru.He becomes disciple of my disciple." 2.facts from this.Minimal standard for become diksha guru is that one become madhyama adhikari,which mean above all anartas,nistha minimum + direct order from Srila Prabhupada to serve like that.Those who met this 2 conditions are bonafide gurus.As simple as this.Kanistha adhikari can accept disciples, and train them some ABC of spiritual life,but can not initiate them due to not having adhikar.This is guru tattva facts,confirmed by Acaryas.For shure uttama adhikaris are Sri Guru level,since they reached Sri Krishna and suddha Nam or prema Nam level.However,historical facts what happened after Srila Prabhupada departed,speak for themselves and must be taken in account .And they are sad facts.

  7. Krishna Dharma says :
    Oct 13, 2021 at 7:36 am

    Those advocating for Srila Prabhupada as the ongoing and only diksha guru in ISKCON need to recognise that this is never going to happen. It was rejected a long time ago and ISKCON has moved on a long way since then. There are now 90 odd gurus and a new wave of them is about to come, as the GBC is now allowing those gurus to select their own disciples to initiate. And it is a fact that without diksha taking place the preaching cannot advance. However, as I have tried to point out here, we need to honestly admit that many of them will not be on the topmost level. They especially must admit this to their disciples and act accordingly. Prabhupada has said that there can be gurus on a lower level, as long as they do not pretend otherwise. If we try to establish that only maha-bhagavatas can initiate we are simply going to pave the way for pretenders, gurus trying to be something they are not and misleading their disciples. Let's get real and deal with the reality on the ground. Prabhupada's books are there and we can all advance very nicely under their guidance, with the more experienced among us assisting the less experienced. Without doubt there will be other topmost devotees in time, maybe even now there are some, but we must avoid pretense at any cost.

  8. Praghosa says :
    Oct 13, 2021 at 2:27 pm

    Incorrect and it is very important that we do not spread fake news. Existing gurus are NOT allowed to select their disciples to be guru. Rather any such disciples must go through the very same procedure as every other devotee who is agreeable to serve as diksa guru within ISKCON. The rules are the same

    1. Krishna dharma das says :
      Aug 21, 2024 at 8:53 am

      Yes, thank you prabhu. I am aware of this requirement. But I believe that existing gurus are putting forward names of disciples to undergo the necessary procedures. So hear, at least.

  9. Dusyanta dasa says :
    Aug 21, 2024 at 12:30 pm

    I think before a "serious" debate and discussion can take place we all have to understand the difference in the language we use. In some comments we are interjecting English words with Sanskrit words as if these words are synonyms of each other. For example the word "Initiation" does not infer the word "Diksha" in equality. And then when it comes to verbal discussion rather than just writing, the conversation takes on a totally different value. The word Initiation that is used in verbal discussion takes on so many different meanings and definitions, it means invariably a verbal discussion is very inaccurate and meaningless.
    If we read Srila Prabhupada's words with transparency then at least we may have a foundation to agree on and to verbally discuss Guru Tattva on an equal playing field otherwise we are all just wasting our time because we are all talking on cross purposes all the time. The word Diksha does not equal the word Initiation but so often they are both used to replace each other.
    If we read 10.2.31 with care we will see how far off the mark we all are in Iskcon since 1977. And how we have not followed Srila Prabhupada's writings for the Future devotees after Srila Prabhupada has disappeared. I challenge anybody to read 10.2.31 and prove that Iskcon has prescribed and followed the "Acharya-Sampradaya" methodology in Iskcon for future candidates and devotees for AFTER Srila Prabhupada has disappeared.

  10. Arjun Gupta says :
    Aug 22, 2024 at 11:09 am

    Everyone in Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement, especially those who are born in the Bharata Varsa is ordered to preach after they have made their lives successful..From what I understand, preaching is essential so we can understand ourselves better and progress spiritually quickly.. atleast it has helped me understand that I'm an insignificant creature in the grand scheme of things (lessened my false ego somewhat :-) but taking on the responsibility of a Guru and accepting disciples is a whole another ball game, which, I, personally will not accept unless I'm ordered by Krishna Himself because I know that it's a sure path to hell for me..

  11. Sankirtana Das says :
    Aug 26, 2024 at 6:02 pm

    Of course no one should think oneself to be qualified to be guru. But one should be able to accept that position if they are following diligently, see the need, and hear Prabhupada's call. I have written several articles about Prabhupada's instructions for his disciples. He consistently made comments envisioning his disciples to step up to the challenge and push forward this Movement and increase its numbers. In India many people are certainly attracted to a successful institution like ISKCON. But in the West especially, people are more interested in connecting with community. The Movement in the West will be reinvigorated when those Prabhupada disciples who hear the call are encouraged to initiate and create communities.. Fifty years ago his disciples were immature and had much to learn. But now they are in their 60s, 70s and 80s. The need is unquestionably there, and the time is ripe.

  12. Kalakantha das ACBSP says :
    Aug 26, 2024 at 8:20 pm

    Over the past 15 years I have accepted a small number of disciples in accordance with ISKCON procedures. I know I am not on the mahabhagavata stage, and yet my disciples regularly acknowledge and appreciate that I am helping them connect with Srila Prabhupada through his books. For them, accepting a follower of Srila Prabhupada as a diksa guru is a vital step in surrendering to Srila Prabhupada, and, through His Divine Grace, to Lord Krishna.
    My disciples provide a great incentive for me to continue progressing in my own spiritual life. As Srila Prabhupada said, I see my disciples as representatives of my spiritual master. I help my disciples as best I can, and when some of them in various ways become more advanced than I, it is a great joy to see.
    Why should someone not accept disciples if they have reached a mature age always living in Krishna consciousness, chanting their rounds and following the principles, particularly if they like to preach?
    Why sit on the sidelines discussing whether or not a guru should be an uttama adhikari when there is such a dire need for senior devotees to take full responsibility for newcomers?
    In April, 1975, Srila Prabhupada called for ten million gurus in ISKCON and went into a rare ecstatic trance in public. A couple of hundred disciples, included me, witnessed this in stunned awe.
    For these reasons, to me Krishna Dharma Prabhu's article is authoritative and of vital importance to ISKCON. Thank you, Prabhu, for your excellent work.

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