\u201cBack to Godhead Means Back to Godhead\u201d<\/a>. After this, numerous comments and several articles on the topic have been posted. It may be difficult to sift through all this. So in this article I first list some of the principal arguments against the conclusion of my former article; then I explain why they fail. The conclusion can be named the, \u201cfall position\u201d, the contentions against it can be named the, \u201cno-fall position\u201d. Basically, the fall position is that we fell from our loving relationship with Krishna, in the spiritual world. The no- fall position is that no one can fall from Vaikuntha; our ultimate origin is the brahma-jyoti. <\/p>\nThe, \u201cno- fall\u201d arguments include the following:<\/p>\n
1. Although Srila Prabhupada said we can fall from Vaikuntha, he also said, \u201cno one falls from Vaikuntha\u201d. The, \u201cno one falls\u201d, statement negates the, fall position. <\/p>\n
2. The statements that are presented to support the fall position can also be understood to support the no- fall position.<\/p>\n
3. The citations supporting the fall position are from Srila Prabhupada\u2019s letters and conversations. These are directed to individuals, not to the entire society. Srila Prabhupada told individual devotees that we fall only because they were too convinced of the fall position; in other words they could not accept the real understanding.<\/p>\n
Rebuttal:<\/p>\n
As for the statement, \u201cno one ever falls from Vaikuntha\u201d: Srila Prabhupada also wrote, \u201c\u2026the fall is superficial, just like the relation between a son and a father can never be broken\u201d (letter to Jananivasa, 8\/27\/1967). And, \u201cWe never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself\u2026\u2026\u2026 Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things\u201d, (Siksamrita Volume 2, Page 1171). So, \u201cno one ever falls\u201d does not necessarily mean we were never in Vaikuntha, it can mean, in one sense we don\u2019t ever leave, we just forget as if we are sleeping. So this statement does not negate the fall position. If the no-fall proponents can cite a direct statement that our ultimate origin is the brahma jyoti then their position could be taken seriously. But their conclusion does not directly follow from the statement that no one falls.<\/p>\n
In contrast there are direct statements by Srila Prabhupada that the brahma- jyoti is not our original position: \u201cExistence within the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition. WHEN THE FALL TAKES PLACE IT MEANS FALLING FROM THE NO-FALLEN POSITION (letter to Revatinandana, 7\/ 13\/1970, capitals added). Undeniably, Srila Prabhupada is saying we fell from a place other than the brahman effulgence.<\/p>\n
As for the argument that statements used to support the fall position can also support the no-fall position; this proves not to be the case. Srila Prabhupada says, \u201cBecause he falls down from brahma-sayuja he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna( letter to Madhuvisa, Siksamrita Volume 2 page1172). <\/p>\n
The no-fall proponents will argue that the statement, \u201c\u2026 he was with Krishna\u201d does not mean we were in Vaikuntha, because even in the material world we are in Krishna\u2019s energy so we are always with Krishna even when we forget Him. But this argument requires chopping up Srila Prabhupada\u2019s statement that before being in brahma-sayuja we were with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada is using the phrase, \u201cwith Krishna\u201d as being distinct from forgetting Krishna in the fallen condition of the brahman effulgence. So in this context being, \u201cwith Krishna\u201d, cannot be equated with being connected with Krishna\u2019s energy in a state of forgetfulness. This is an example of a statement that cannot be construed as being compatible with the no- fall position.<\/p>\n
As for the no- fall contention that the numerous letters and conversations confirming that we fall from Vaikuntha are all Srila Prabhupada placating those who have a preconceived notion of the fall; if someone can present evidence that several of these devotees had this mentality their contention may be taken seriously. Until then there is no basis for rejecting Srila Prabhupada\u2019s numerous, direct, statements that we can, and do, fall from Vaikuntha. Beyond this, however, we again have documentation against the no-fall contention.<\/p>\n
Room Conversation Feburary 19, 1976 Mayapur<\/p>\n
Acyutananda: “\u2026\u2026.. But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”\u201d<\/p>\n
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.<\/p>\n
Acyutananda: He can return.<\/p>\n
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.\u2026 That misuse is the cause of our falldown. <\/p>\n
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.<\/p>\n
Here is a small sample of more repudiations of the no-fall position: \u201cThe relationship with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity is eternal; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.\u201d( letter to Jagadisa, 2\/27\/1970 capitals added). And, \u201c..but because the independence is always there, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISSUSE OF HIS INDEPENDENCE( letter to Jagadisa, 2\/27\/1970 capitals added).CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHALOKA HAS A CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN( Letter to Upendra 10\/27\/1969 capitals added). There are many more, but they have been cited repeatedly on this website so I will stop here. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
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Sita Rama dasa: Basically, the fall position is that we fell from our loving relationship with Krishna, in the spiritual world. The no- fall position is that no one can fall from Vaikuntha; our ultimate origin is the brahma-jyoti.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[93],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-12614","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-blog-thoughts"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12614","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=12614"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12614\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=12614"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=12614"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=12614"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}