{"id":1632,"date":"2006-10-06T22:01:56","date_gmt":"2006-10-06T21:01:56","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/?p=1632"},"modified":"2007-02-02T15:33:57","modified_gmt":"2007-02-02T14:33:57","slug":"krishna-kirti-atma-yogas-and-sadhu-sanga","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/?p=1632","title":{"rendered":"Krishna-kirti, Atma Yoga(s), and Sadhu-sanga"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"\"By Sita-pati das<\/strong><\/p>\n

In the interest of reducing some confusion (if such a thing were possible), I’d like to point out that Krishna-kirti Prabhu’s article<\/a> specifically mentions me by name but then goes on to dissect a website that belongs to Atmananda das (www.yogamandir.com<\/a>). The Atma Yoga school in Brisbane Australia is found on the web at www.atmayoga.com.au<\/a>.<\/p>\n

There is no “Atma Yoga institution”, as Krishna-kirti terms it :-)<\/p>\n

The Atma Yoga School in Brisbane is an established school that is a continuation of the yoga school that some congregational devotees, including my wife and myself, first opened in 1998 in Wellington, New Zealand. Atmananda prabhu is a disciple of Bhakti Tirtha Swami. His “Atma Yoga teacher training” is relatively new, and untested in the field (there is as yet no “success story” to point to). A number of established Vaisnava-run hatha-yoga schools have been trialling some<\/em> of the elements of Atmananda’s hatha yoga class styles in the context of their ongoing programs, and contributing to him observations of how they actually work in practice, along with suggestions on how he can improve his program.<\/p>\n

The hatha yoga class is only a small part of the experience of visiting one of these centers, however. If you want to understand what Atma Yoga in Brisbane, and the other Vaisnava hatha yoga schools that use the “Loft paradigm” are all about, then I humbly request that you listen to the Contemporary Urban Preaching Seminars<\/a> by His Holiness Devamrita Swami, which describe his realizations and observations of over ten years of bringing people into Srila Prabhupada’s mission through urban preaching centers which are run by congregational members of ISKCON, in facilities that they financially maintain, as an offering to Srila Prabhupada.<\/p>\n

As both Krishna-kirti prabhu and His Holiness Danavir Maharaja went to some lengths to point out in their articles, there is nothing wrong with congregational members honestly maintaining themselves through teaching hatha yoga outside of ISKCON owned facilities, and at the same time using it as an opportunity to bring people in contact with Krishna Consciousness.<\/p>\n

Aside from the apparent confusion (understandable given the similar name), my thanks go to Krishna-kirti Prabhu for his contribution to the discussion about Hatha Yoga and Krishna Consciousness. If it is the Krishna-kirti that I know, then he is a venerable disciple of H.H. Hrdayananda das Goswami, a erudite and intelligent devotee versed in the Vaisnava sastras and dedicated to Srila Prabhupada’s mission, who previously maintained the website “Hare Krishna Cultural Journal” at www.siddhanta.com (now discontinued). Reading the article and the style of writing, I’d say with a high degree of confidence that it is the same Krishna-kirti. :-)<\/p>\n

I’d like to reinforce a very nice point that Krishna-kirti Prabhu has made in his article about preaching with hatha yoga, that applies to any type of preaching. I’ll even state it more emphatically than prabhu has done: Sadhu-sanga<\/em> is not just a “possible explanation” – it’s the only possible explanation<\/em>. The devotee is the touchstone that turns the stone-like heart to gold. The whole point of any type of preaching is to bring people in contact with devotees. Everything has to be personal.<\/p>\n

Here is an excerpt from one of the seminars on this topic by H.H. Devamrita Swami, which are available in audio form from the link above (transcripts coming soon), that reinforces and further elaborates on what Krishna-kirti prabhu has said:<\/p>\n

“Now here is a point that I hope you will take seriously. Everything in your physical space in your facility, whether it is your ideal facility or not, has to maximize personal contact<\/em>. In other words, we have seen that so many times a nice facility is created theoretically but because the facility doesn’t allow a devotee’s personality to exude throughout the whole place it remains cold and ineffective. You can get a small place and if there is a very dynamic or very personable devotee(s) exuding throughout that place and emanating their personal charm then that warms up the place.<\/p>\n

But the mistake I see devotees make so many times is that they let the facilities do the preaching. For example, “here we’ve got a book room, a reading room, a video room, a gift shop, etc”. And that’s it; so let the preaching go on. You should design your plans so that at every step of the way nothing can be done without personal contact with a devotee. The devotee’s personality is your main asset, which brings the facility to life.<\/em> So if you have a chance whether you have an ideal place or not please keep this in mind that nothing will go on in this place without interaction with a devotee. There should be nothing automatic, nothing self-service, there is no retail sales or anything. You have to go to a devotee for everything. Or a devotee, if looked at another way, has to approach the people for anything. This will save you a lot of empty nights in which your place is empty and you are wondering what is going wrong.<\/p>\n

This is because the tendency is that all over the world devotees think that the video, book, or gift shop, will preach for me. And then the devotees don’t extend themselves and they forget that the devotee is the main attraction. I like the policy of not having any sales activity going on unless that sales activity is presented by a devotee personally. In other words, not even so much a book shop or a gift shop unless in order to access that so called shop a devotee has to be there with you. In fact you will find that you can, for example books, the standard Hare Krishna ploy is to have a book counter or a book room. You will find that if you don’t have such a thing and you still want to introduce books to people it can be done very effectively just by building a relationship with the people and at the appropriate time you just present the books. It’s all personal. That puts a greater burden on the devotees to share their wealth with others.<\/p>\n

Bear in mind that Hare Krishna’s often always look for excuses on how to let other things to do their preaching for them except themselves. If you minimize in your project all the possibilities that people can avoid devotees then this is very good. Everything should be maximum personal. For example if you have ever gone (in your old days) to some kind of cafe, pub, bar, club and their were staff there that really made the place come alive. Then that’s what you are looking for. Famous places have that. Places with celebrity chefs for example. The personality of the chef is as much a part of the place as the food, or a host of some kind of club. This is what you want to get going for yourself.<\/p>\n

Often devotees leave out of the equation that they are the most attractive part of the facility.<\/em> People are fascinated by devotees but don’t just expect them to come up and say so. But they are interested. And even if the devotee is in incognito, that means not wearing devotional attire, still the radiance comes out. Especially after repeated visits. So all your arrangements I would have to say to maximize personal interaction of the staff.<\/em> That’s how the people see it. The staff. This will be the biggest draw. Not the physical facility itself. The physical facility is the setting for the personalities to do their thing. So basically what you are creating for yourself is your own kind of sankirtan arena. You are creating a flow of people and you are interacting with them for the purpose of increasing their contact with the Supreme Personality of Godhead directly or indirectly.<\/em> So please think that at every step of the way there wont be anything impersonal or indirect. Everything is introduced by a devotee, serviced by a devotee, presented by a devotee. In this way it is the personalities of the devotees that brings the facility to life. If you could understand this point then you are getting into the mystery of the science of urban preaching.<\/em><\/p>\n

People are lonely and they don’t want to admit. Their lives are more empty than ever before. They are more stressed out (they may admit that). Their relationships are hellish (they won’t admit that right away). They have been through so many boyfriends and girlfriends and they’ve got family problems. And they are looking for meaningful relationships. So that is the main attraction at your place. The other things, the physical layout, the yoga, and the seminars are just props for the jewel of the devotee person to radiate. You just make the stage for the devotee to emanate his or her radiance.<\/em><\/p>\n

So once again remember that generally devotees want preaching to go on automatically, “Oh, you’re interested? Here’s the video, here’s the gift shop, look around”. I say you don’t want that. I say you want every opportunity to gradually build relationships with the people<\/em> and then, “oh yes I can recommend you a very nice book, or this or that for you”. This goes much deeper and is much more long lasting. It just involves a little patience and I feel the results will be better. Especially if for example you are interested in selling lots of Prabhupada’s books then you have to develop a relationship with the people first. Just selling a Bhagavatam set. So please think about his point deeply. Everywhere I go in the world, most temples and preaching centers are locked into this view that it is a preaching facility, with space and rooms, and now it’s all going on. But who is going to staff these rooms? They think, “Well whoever has the time”. But the staff is the most important ingredient. You need persons who want to help others, reach to others, who are tactful, sensitive, caring. This is what will impress people and that is what brings them back day after day. The personalities of the devotees combined with the taste of the prasad. These are the two most attractive things. Their tongue is satisfied and their heart is satisfied. They will readily admit that their tongues are satisfied but don’t expect them to say that their heart is satisfied. But that is actually what their most into besides the tongue. If you had any idea of how distraught, anxiety ridden, unsatisfactorily their relationships are, then you will understand this point better. But its not something that they will all talk about immediately.<\/p>\n

Therefore, no matter what kind of place you will get or have now, maximize the personal encounters and do away with everything that is impersonal and indirect. You as the devotee are at the center of the stage.<\/em> It’s your club even though you want the feel that it is their club, but that is also your doing. You want the people to identify with, “yeah it’s my place, they are my host, yeah you remember me, I am a regular”. So the more they encounter devotees, especially the different devotees. Someone can be serving prasad, some is meeting them at the door, someone is teaching yoga, and someone is giving a seminar. They are just fascinated about all these personalities. You just don’t get that in the material world. There is nothing like the personality of the devotee when the devotee behaves properly. There just nothing like it. How did you feel when you first contacted devotees? You were just amazed weren’t you? And very quickly I am sure most of you began with a very idealistic utopian conception, “all the devotees are saints”. Yeah. “Wow they all must be like avatars, I am the only one that is out of it”. But then after some time you found out that there are different grades of devotees. Some are going forward, some backward, and some standing still. So this is the main attractive feature and you have to do everything to maximize that.<\/em><\/p><\/blockquote>\n

These seminars should be studied in depth by anyone who is interested in presenting Krishna Consciousness in a contemporary urban setting. Even though I was there in the 90’s to personally observe a lot of the developments and discoveries that are described in these seminars, these seminars are still on repeat play on my personal media player today. They are so full of nectarean realizations and inspiration, and help to keep the focus on the real goal of life and our activities even while we’re living the day-to-day details.<\/p>\n

Desiring to be a humble servant of the Vaisnavas, Sita-pati das<\/p>\n

Author info: I am a congregational member of ISKCON – a disciple of H.H. Devamrita Swami currently living and working in Brisbane, Australia, along with my wife Param Satya dd and our four-year old son Prahlad. You can find out more about me if you wish by reading my web journal at www.atmayogi.com.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\"HareBy Sita-pati das<\/strong><\/p>\n

As both Krishna-kirti prabhu and His Holiness Danavir Maharaja went to some lengths to point out in their articles, there is nothing wrong with congregational members honestly maintaining themselves through teaching hatha yoga outside of ISKCON owned facilities, and at the same time using it as an opportunity to bring people in contact with Krishna Consciousness.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[2,27],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1632","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-articles","category-sita-pati-das"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1632","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=1632"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1632\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=1632"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=1632"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=1632"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}