{"id":6364,"date":"2008-09-03T13:14:12","date_gmt":"2008-09-03T12:14:12","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/?p=6364"},"modified":"2008-09-03T13:38:02","modified_gmt":"2008-09-03T12:38:02","slug":"reply-to-point-one-of-nine-reasons-to-change-the-tovp","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/?p=6364","title":{"rendered":"Reply to point one of nine reasons to change the TOVP"},"content":{"rendered":"

By Hari-sauri dasa<\/strong><\/p>\n

September 2, 2008<\/p>\n

\tTo the assembled Vaisnavas,<\/p>\n

\tPlease accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada! <\/p>\n

\tI have read with interest the presentation of \u2018Nine points\u2019 by our Iskcon scholars (and others) as to why the current design of the TOVP in Mayapur should be stopped. (I will not say here \u2018changed\u2019 because there is no alternative on the table.)<\/p>\n

\tIts clear that there are some strong feelings amongst some devotees that the US Capitol building-based design is not going to serve our purposes, and that is natural. There is hardly a building of significance in the world that does not have its detractors. <\/p>\n

\tSince I presented my initial reply to the concerns of the authors of this document, they have been hard at work to more clearly express their dissent. All well. It would be a poor world to live in if we were dumbed down by decisions that cannot be discussed and debated (what Ravindra Svarup prabhu used to call the \u2018mushroom philosophy\u2019 \u2013 \u2018keep \u2018em in the dark and feed them stool.\u2019)<\/p>\n

\tAmbarish prabhu has welcomed the debate and already replied. I have waited to have my say because I already made a lengthy presentation several months ago. In this instance I wanted to see what the more developed arguments are and what are the reactions to them.<\/p>\n

\tI would humbly like to request the indulgence of the assemble devotees while I reply this latest salvo. If anyone is in doubt about my personal qualifications in making this reply, all I can say is that <\/p>\n

1) I am a member of the current design team, being the coordinator for the proposed exhibits.
\n2) I was personally with Srila Prabhupada on numerous occasions in 1976-1977 when the discussions on building the TOVP were building up a head of steam and Srila Prabhupada was pushing his disciples to complete the plans and begin the work.
\n3) I spent over three months living with Srila Prabhupada in Mayapur and I am a resident of Mayapur since 1996. i.e. I have a deep attachment to this project seeded and cultivated by my association with His Divine Grace.
\n4) I am an Iskcon man and have been for nearly 37 years.
\n5) Other than that, I am a conditioned soul and I readily accept that my perceptions or ideas may not be clear. By submitting my understandings to the general devotees I hope to go deeper and more clearly into the divine realm of devotional service.<\/p>\n

\tHere then is my response to the first of the \u20189 points\u2019:<\/p>\n

Point one:<\/p>\n

1) Srila Prabhupada, in mid-1976, made three brief statements (added at the end of this aticle) which suggested that the TVP should look like the U.S. Capitol. But he never insisted that the latter must be its exact model. He said only that the TVP, like the Capitol or the Victoria Memorial, should have a big dome. Five years before these statements, Srila Prabhupada approved Ranchor Prabhu’s very different design for the TVP, and after the statements he did not object to, and seems in fact to have approved, Saurabha’s Indian design; he allowed Saurabha to make a model of it and to display it outside the Lotus Building. It is therefore unclear to what extent he really wanted the TVP to resemble the U.S. Capitol. <\/p>\n

Hari Sauri Prabhu describes, in Transcendental Diary, Srila Prabhupada’s “extreme enthusiasm” for Saurabha’s drawings of an Indian design, in January 1976 – the very drawings that resulted in the model that was put on display. We are on safe ground if we give priority to Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements about the architecture of the TVP. <\/p>\n

The problem is that there are not many such statements. The brief and never repeated ones about the Capitol dome, at least two of which were made in the course of long conversations about other things, are supportive only of the idea that the TVP should have a big dome similar to that of the U.S. Capitol, to the extent of being a dome and big. This being the case, the exact nature of the dome should be decided on the basis of other related instructions Srila Prabhupada gave in his works. <\/p>\n

Such instructions of course suggest that the architecture should be Indian. Srila Prabhupada said that the whole world will come to Mayapura to see “the architectural culture, they’ll come to see the civilization culture, the philosophical culture, the religious culture.” (Feb. 28,1976, Mayapura)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

My answer:<\/p>\n

\tThe key to this whole debate, as I have stated previously, is mentioned here \u201cWe are on safe ground if we give priority to Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements about the architecture of the TVP.\u201d I think all of us agree on this.<\/p>\n

1)\tThe authors state: \u201cIt is therefore unclear to what extent he really wanted the TVP to resemble the U.S. Capitol.\u201d<\/p>\n

a)\tI find the statement above to be problematic. The thrust of this first of nine points is to minimize as much as possible Srila Prabhupada\u2019s own statements made in 1976 in order to deny the fact that he wanted a dome, or indeed a whole building, like the US Capitol. <\/p>\n

Instead, to gain credibility the authors have indulged in some obvious assumptions and obfuscation which I would like to point out:<\/p>\n

\tAt no point has anyone suggested or insisted that there cannot be another design. Even a cursory reading of my previous article reveals this fact. <\/p>\n

\tHowever, Ambarish prabhu has already stated that when he took the project up, he was fed up of the constant changes in design that had been made for over 30 years. There were many, many designs. Even as late as 2004-05 changes were being made to the exterior. <\/p>\n

\tNone of these attempts factored in Srila Prabhupada\u2019s own stated preference for the exterior design. And the total expenditure had come to about $12 million +. Thus he decided to go back to a design which he knew Srila Prabhupada liked. <\/p>\n

\tAmbarish has never said Prabhupada didn\u2019t like any other design. He simply said, \u201cWe know that Srila Prabhupada like this design, let\u2019s build it because we are on safe ground.\u201d<\/p>\n

b) \tThere is an attempt here to dissemble Srila Prabhupada\u2019s own words and minimize them. The authors state \u201cit is unclear to what extent he really wanted the TVP to resemble the US Capitol.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tWhat is unclear? Let me go through the sequence, and for the umpteenth time, present exactly what Srila Prabhupada actually did and said (and please note the authors of this paper have avoided these quotes in their new presentation):<\/p>\n

\tOn July 4 1976 Srila Prabhupada, accompanied by a large group of devotees, went down into WDC ostensibly to view the massive fireworks show that had been promised for the evening\u2019s entertainment. <\/p>\n

\tAfter a brief tour around, the group settled on a spot at the end of the Mall, facing the Capitol. <\/p>\n

\tAs we awaited the fireworks, this is what Srila Prabhupada saw:<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

(Photo taken on July 4, 2008 by Hari-sauri dasa)<\/p>\n

Two days later on July 6, he called in Yadubara prabhu and his wife Vishakha and asked them to take photos of the Capitol Building:<\/p>\n

Prabhup\u00e4da: … I wanted both of you to take various detailed photographs of that Capitol.
\nYadubara: The Capitol Building. For what purpose, \u00c7r\u00e9la Prabhup\u00e4da?
\nPrabhup\u00e4da: We shall have picture, planetarium in M\u00e4y\u00e4pura. (aside:) That’s better. [break] …spiritual world, material world, and so on, so on. Planetary…, succession of the planetary systems, everything. A building like that.\u201d
\n[end quote \u2013 pls. Note I have included the fuller quote in my previous paper]\n

\tYadubara and Vishakha reported back two days later and \u00c7r\u00e9la Prabhup\u00e4da instructed them to make three copies of all the photos they took, one set for himself, one for Saurabha and one for the Mayapur management.<\/p>\n

Less than one month later, on July 26, 1976, in London, Srila Prabhupada met with George Harrison. Part of that conversation, which ranged over many things, included this exchange:<\/p>\n

Prabhup\u00e4da: … We are just attempting a big planetarium in M\u00e4y\u00e4pur. We have asked government to acquire land, 350 acres. That is negotiation going on. We shall give a Vedic planetarium.
\nGeorge Harrison: Is that the one you were talking about? With all the…
\nPrabhup\u00e4da: In the Fifth Canto.
\nGurud\u00e4sa: The planetarium will be 350 feet high and show the cosmology of the spiritual world.
\nPrabhup\u00e4da: The construction will be like your Washington capital, like that.
\nGeorge Harrison: A big dome.
\nPrabhup\u00e4da: Yes. Estimated eight crores of rupees.
\n[end quote]\n

\tNow, how can it be shown from the above that Srila Prabhupada was ambiguous or \u2018unclear\u2019 about the Capitol building?<\/p>\n

\tHe clearly states, twice, that he wanted a building in Mayapur \u2018like that.\u201d What does the word \u2018like\u2019 mean? I am sure our scholars have dictionaries. Here\u2019s what mine says:<\/p>\n

\u201csimilar; resembling\u201d
\n\u201cthe equal or counterpart of a person or thing, esp. one respected or prized.\u201d
\n\u201cresembling or similar to\u201d
\n\u201chaving the characteristics of\u201d <\/p>\n

\tIt is possible to say that Srila Prabhupada was being loose in his usage. But when we factor in the request for his disciples to take photos \u201cinside and outside\u201d and send them to his Mayapur GBC, and his chief designer, and to keep a set for himself, there can be no doubt as to the degree to which he was impressed.<\/p>\n

\tIf someone is unclear about an historical event, the first duty of a commentator should be to contact the persons that were personally present and hear from them. I was there, and I have already expressed my understanding which the authors do not find palatable. Just in case the authors think that I have a bias (I do, and that is to understand exactly what Srila Prabhupada wanted and nothing more) we would naturally expect that the authors would have contacted Yadubara and Vishakha prabhus, to find out what their impression was. <\/p>\n

\tI did: <\/p>\n

August 25, 2008 <\/p>\n

\tDear Yadubara prabhu,<\/p>\n

\tPlease accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada!<\/p>\n

\tYou will have no doubt seen the current stir about the use of the Capitol building design for the TOVP. It is now being claimed that Srila Prabhupada’s request to use that as the template for the TOVP was ambiguous.<\/p>\n

\tI have a couple of questions if you wouldn’t mind replying:<\/p>\n

1)\tWhen Srila Prabhupada asked you and Vishakha to photograph the Capitol, and when he asked you to make copies and send them to Saurabha and Gargamuni, what was your understanding why he did this?<\/p>\n

2)\tWas Srila Prabhupada’s request in any way ambiguous, or was it clear that he wanted that design for the Mayapur temple?<\/p>\n

\tAn early reply would be appreciated.<\/p>\n[end]\n

\tAnd this his response:<\/p>\n

August 25, 2008<\/p>\n

Dear Hari-sauri prabhu,<\/p>\n

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.<\/p>\n

We have been asked similar questions in the past and here is our answer:<\/p>\n

> Srila Prabhupada was in Washington D.C. for the two hundredth anniversary of American
\n> independence day (July 4, 1976) and that evening we all went with him downtown to see the
\n> fireworks. That’s when he saw the Capitol Building and the next morning during mangala
\n> aratirka, called Yadubara and me into his room and asked us to take pictures of that building.<\/p>\n

> (At the same meeting he looked right at us and said, \u201cTake it from me they didn’t go to the
\n> moon,” and to directly experience his conviction was a memorable moment.)<\/p>\n

> Both Yadubara and I feel that the Capitol Building was to serve as some form of inspiration;
\n> that Srila Prabhupada was not fixed on that design but offered it as an option for consideration.
\n[end quote]\n

\tIts clear that this letter was written by Vishakha devi. <\/p>\n

\tA couple of points can be noted:<\/p>\n

\tThey both felt that Srila Prabhupada wanted the Capitol to serve as \u2018an option\u2019 or \u2018as some form of inspiration.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tThat\u2019s pretty clear then, what those in direct contact with Srila Prabhupada understood from his actions and words. When we add to this his statement to George Harrison a few weeks later, it becomes even clearer. <\/p>\n

\tWhy is this being discounted? And discounted it is, because the other point to note is Yadubara\u2019s statement to me: \u201cWe have been asked similar questions in the past and here is our answer.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tI was intrigued by this and wrote to Vishakha on August 30:<\/p>\n

\t\u201cNo doubt you have seen the recent stir against the current TOVP. Yadu has already sent me a statement from you and him about what were your impressions of Srila Prabhupada’s intentions when he asked you to take photos of the Capitol building. I am just wondering if you have been contacted previously by Tattvavit or Janakiram on this topic?\u201d<\/p>\n

\tHere is her reply:<\/p>\n

\tAugust 31, 2008<\/p>\n

\t\u201cNo, not by either of those two devotees, but by Carana Renu Prabhu. She has the statement from us on the topic.\u201d
\n[end quote]\n

\tFor there readers who don\u2019t know Carana Renu dasi (Phd in astrophysics), she is the former co-ordinator for the ISKCON cosmology team led by Ravindra Svarupa prabhu. She supports the efforts of her fellow scholars in trying to derail the current plans.<\/p>\n

\tWithout jumping to conclusions, one has to ask whether Carana Renu mataji was:
\n* involved in any way with putting together the \u20189 points\u2019 paper?
\n* Whether she sent this message from Vishakha to the authors, or in any way indicated its contents to them?
\n* Or in any way discussed the possibility of using their testimony?<\/p>\n

\tIf she did, then we have to say that this eye-witness, first hand observation was deliberately left out. And we would have to ask \u2018why?\u2019. Is it because it does not agree with the authors\u2019 attempt to show that Srila Prabhupada\u2019s words and actions were ambiguous or \u2018unclear.\u2019<\/p>\n

\tAnd even if Carana Renu mataji has had no contact at all on this topic with the authors, we would have to ask why they have been so eager to not contact the obvious people they should have done, had their investigations into this matter been unbiased and of a scholarly nature.<\/p>\n

c)\tApart from this, I was quite amused that the authors are even attempting to show that in my own record of events from Mayapur in 1976, Transcendental Diary Vol 1 I have contradicted what I now present:<\/p>\n

\t\u201cHari Sauri Prabhu describes, in Transcendental Diary, Srila Prabhupada’s “extreme enthusiasm” for Saurabha’s drawings of an Indian design, in January 1976 – the very drawings that resulted in the model that was put on display. It is interesting that again the authors have excluded my exact wording.<\/p>\n

\tHere\u2019s my exact quote:<\/p>\n

January 22, 1976 – Mayapur<\/p>\n

\u201cIn the evening Saurabha prabhu showed Prabhupada the preliminary plans for the new temple. He estimates the cost will be at least eighty crores of rupees ($80 million). Saurabha’s drawings revealed magnificent plans for an entire city, centered around a huge temple structure. It will be surrounded by satellite temples, a gurukula campus, a commercial area, bathing ghatas, and other facilities. The whole area will be protected from flooding by a latticework of canals. The main feature is to be a gigantic planetarium within the dome of the main temple. <\/p>\n

Srila Prabhupada was extremely enthusiastic about the plans. He wants the planetarium to demonstrate the Vedic alternative to modern scientific cosmological propaganda, illustrating the structure of the universe as described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Impressed with Saurabha’s work, Prabhupada suggested that the plans be presented to the state government with an application for official acquisition of the land we require. Prabhupada always thinks big; he even suggested that we try to get them to relocate Calcutta’s Dum Dum airport nearby. For Prabhupada no vision is impossible, because it is for Krsna.\u201d [end quote]\n

\tThere is no mention here about an \u2018Indian\u2019 style dome. Nor do I say that he was extremely enthusiastic about drawings of \u2018an Indian design\u2019. I say very clearly that he was extremely enthusiastic about the plans, and I go on to mention the effort against modern cosmological propaganda. <\/p>\n

\tFurthermore, I said in my last paper that the design for the temple was not yet fixed up at the January 1976 meeting. As above I say there were some \u2018preliminary plans\u2019 of the whole scheme. <\/p>\n

\tIf we then consider that just 5 months later Srila Prabhupada was having photos taken of the Capitol, and sending them to his designer and GBC, stating he wanted something \u2018like that\u2019 it should be clear that in Srila Prabhupada\u2019s mind at least, the final design was not fixed up, and that whatever he was shown in January 1976, he developed an enthusiasm for the Capitol building. <\/p>\n

\tOne has to ask then, where do the authors get this contention, from my book, that he had an extreme enthusiasm for an \u2018Indian design\u2019? An that this somehow countermands my account of what went on later?<\/p>\n

\tIf there is a hint of criticism in the authors questioning of why I did not include the two above paragraphs from January 22 1976 in my previous paper, I think this is now answered. <\/p>\n

\tI did not include them because they give no information about the exact design of the temple, and because they were superceded by the clear and direct comments and actions five months later.<\/p>\n

\tSounds like someone is clutching at straws here.<\/p>\n

d)\tThe authors go on to state: <\/p>\n

\t\u201cThe brief and never repeated ones about the Capitol dome, at least two of which were made in the course of long conversations about other things, are supportive only of the idea that the TVP should have a big dome similar to that of the U.S. Capitol, to the extent of being a dome and big. This being the case, the exact nature of the dome should be decided on the basis of other related instructions Srila Prabhupada gave in his works.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tHere we find the authors venturing to extrapolate or qualify the statements Srila Prabhupada made about the Capitol. They attempt by slight-of word, to reduce the unequivocally clear preference of His Divine Grace to \u201cto the extent of being a dome and big.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tWell, munis are known for reductionism so that they can introduce their own ideas, and here we see it plainly in action. If Srila Prabhupada wanted simply a \u2018big dome\u2019 of any nature, he would have said that. But rather, he states, clearly, on two occasions in three weeks, \u201clike that\u201d referring directly to the Capitol building.<\/p>\n

\tAnother attempt to minimize Srila Prabhupada\u2019s words is to say, \u201cat least two of which were made in the course of long conversations about other things.\u201d <\/p>\n

\tWhy does this minimize the importance of such an statement? Rather the opposite. The fact that Srila Prabhupada called in Yadubara and Vishakha without prompting, to take photos when they themselves didn\u2019t know the reason why, shows that he was mediating on the Capitol building and that his meditations brought him to the point of actualization.<\/p>\n

\tThe fact that he mentioned the Capitol building to George Harrison in a conversation about many other topics, shows that despite many other possible subject matters, he was meditating on the Capitol building and was eager enough to have it for his Mayapur project that he, again without prompting, voiced his desire.<\/p>\n

\tThe final sentence above concludes: <\/p>\n

\t\u201cThis being the case, the exact nature of the dome should be decided on the basis of other related instructions Srila Prabhupada gave in his works.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tA clever but transparent jump of logic not related to reality. <\/p>\n

e)\tAnd finally, another such jump of logic:<\/p>\n

\tSuch instructions of course suggest that the architecture should be Indian. Srila Prabhupada said that the whole world will come to Mayapura to see “the architectural culture, they’ll come to see the civilization culture, the philosophical culture, the religious culture.” (Feb. 28,1976, Mayapura)<\/p>\n

\tI have in my previous paper, presented some statements that indicate what every manager in Mayapur knew: that Srila Prabhupada did not want a repeat of the many Indian-style domes and temples, not just in Mayapur, but in India in general. He had already gone with that at the Krsna Balarama Mandira, and in Mumbai and Hyderabad. <\/p>\n

\tIn Mayapur he wanted something that would reflect the international nature of his ISKCON. <\/p>\n

\tIn fact, Srila Prabhupada was criticized by his own god-brothers in Mayapur for not repeating the same architectural style that they have built their temples in. <\/p>\n

\tHere is the Yoga Pitha, the biggest temple established by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur:<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

\tThey were critical that he was not following the tradition set by their Guru Maharaja. The Lotus building was entirely different from anything that any other god-brother built. <\/p>\n

\tSrila Prabhupada didn\u2019t have a care about their criticism. He had his own, expansive plans for the development of Mayapur-dhama that went beyond the preservation and easy life of running a temple midst the rice paddies of rural W. Bengal.<\/p>\n

\tI will finally add, on this section, that obviously, in 1977, Srila Prabhupada agreed to allow Sauraba prabhu to go ahead with the design he had been working on most of the year: that of the multi-domed, pyramidal structure that was displayed as a model outside the Lotus building during the festival. Saurabh prabhu had labored long and hard, in the midst of many other important projects, and Srila Prabhupada was not keen to make him scrap what he had already started. Therefore he gave the go-ahead for the model to be displayed. For him, it is a fact that the interior usage was superior to the external features.<\/p>\n

\tThe point to re-iterate here is that Srila Prabhupada was open to other options. Noone has ever disputed that. But the use of the Capitol building has been strongly attacked, and the thrust of this new \u20189 point\u2019 declaration is to demolish in the reader\u2019s minds the idea that Srila Prabhupada himself liked that design. I think I have shown conclusively that this is not at all the case.<\/p>\n

My Conclusion:<\/p>\n

\tThe authors know that unless they can show that Srila Prabhupada didn\u2019t have a preference, or didn\u2019t state exactly what he wanted, then it leaves them room to express their own dissatisfaction and their own preference in place of the current proposal. <\/p>\n

\tHowever, if it can be established that Srila Prabhupada did in fact like, and request a building like the US Capitol, then I would suggest that the authors have to honestly acknowledge this by issuing the following statement:
\na) \tSrila Prabhupada likes the Capitol.
\nb) \tWe don\u2019t.
\nc)\tTherefore we don\u2019t like what Srila Prabhupada likes.<\/p>\n

\tTo reiterate the opening statement on which we all agree:<\/p>\n

\t\u201cWe are on safe ground if we give priority to Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements about the architecture of the TVP.\u201d<\/p>\n

\tI think that to any discerning reader it can be seen that Ambarish prabhu, with GBC approval, is therefore attempting to build something that we know without a doubt Srila Prabhupada likes; This is the safe ground, and this should be given priority, considering all other factors.<\/p>\n

I will answer the other points in due course. For now I think this is sufficient for the reader to digest. I thank everyone for their indulgence.<\/p>\n

Your humble servant,
\nHari-sauri dasa<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

\"HareBy Hari-sauri dasa<\/strong><\/p>\n

Its clear that there are some strong feelings amongst some devotees that the US Capitol building-based design is not going to serve our purposes, and that is natural. There is hardly a building of significance in the world that does not have its detractors. <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[17,85],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-6364","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-discussion","category-hari-sauri-dasa"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6364","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=6364"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/6364\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=6364"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=6364"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.dandavats.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=6364"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}