Jiva dance back to rasa-lila

Patita Pavana das: Jiva dance back to rasa-lila

Treatise on jiva-fall in Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Jaiva dharma
(We have 5 different translations. HG Sarvabhavana dasa, HG Kusakratha dasa, Gaudiya Vedanta publication, Sri Gaudiya Matha publication. Some parts are translated by “Our original position” book– GBC press.
We’ll use all, to give a many angled view on the text.)

Chapter 7 – marginal

“When he first enters the material world, the soul is covered by a new sense of identity. In his pure state of existence the soul thinks “I am a servant of Lord Krsna”.

Another says:
“Having entered into the world…, when he was in his pure state, his only one egoism was.. “

Then we read:
Yadava dasa: Why do we have illusory material relationships?
Ananta dasa: The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit. The first situation of the soul is on the boundary line that separates the spiritual and material worlds. In that condition the souls that do not forget their original relationship with Lord Krsna come under the control of the spiritual potency and are drawn into the spiritual world. Becoming eternal associates of Lord Krsna, they enjoy the bliss of serving Him directly. The souls who are averse to Lord Krsna and who wish to enjoy the pleasures offered to maya are drawn into the world of maya. That is why we now reside in the material world. When we enter the material world we forget our true spiritual identity. Then we think “I am the enjoyer of maya”. Then maya encircles us with a great variety of false identities.

According to Brahman fall vada, the soul was originally, eternally in Brahman, with an eternal ‘dormant’ Krishna consciousness in the soul. Then the soul falls to the border-tatastha– where some temporary love for Krishna was developed and renounced, and so falls further. This is not so.
That wouldn’t be righteous; some souls gaze for a moment at the spiritual world and get prema-mukti for eternity. The other souls have to struggle with the religious rituals for many many births to get that same.

Therefore these border-tatastha- descriptions are ontological. This describes the status, in terms of ontology, of the marginal energy; they have free will since beginningless time. Those souls who know and remember they are Krishna-nitya-dasa, go back to their original position. The Krishna-bahir-mukha souls desire bhoga and are in the world of maya.

As we read in Bhagavad-gita:

dvau bhuta-sargau loke ‘smin
daiva asura eva ca

O son of Pritha, in this world there are two kinds of created beings. One is called divine and the other demoniac. (Bg 15.6)

And as we read in Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 1.5:

“ radha krishna-pranaya-vikritir hladini saktir asmad
ekatmanav api bhuvi pura deha-bhedam gatau tau
caitanyakhyam prakatam adhuna tad-dvayam caikyam aptam
radha-bhava-dyuti-suvalitam naumi krishna-svarupam

WORD-FOR-WORD MEANINGS
radha—Srimati Radharani; krishna—of Lord Krishna; pranaya—of love; vikritih—the transformation; hladini saktih—pleasure potency; asmat—from this; eka-atmanau—both the same in identity; api—although; bhuvi—on earth; pura—formerly; deha-bhedam—separate forms; gatau—obtained; tau—those two; caitanya-akhyam—known as Sri Caitanya; prakatam—manifest; adhuna—now; tat-dvayam—the two of Them; ca—and; aikyam—unity; aptam—obtained; radha—of Srimati Radharani; bhava—mood; dyuti—the luster; su-valitam—who is adorned with; naumi—I offer my obeisances; krishna-svarupam—to Him who is identical with Sri Krishna.

TRANSLATION
The loving affairs of Sri Radha and Krishna are transcendental manifestations of the Lord’s internal pleasure-giving potency. Although Radha and Krishna are one in Their identity, previously They separated Themselves. Now these two transcendental identities have again united, in the form of Sri Krishna Caitanya. I bow down to Him, who has manifested Himself with the sentiment and complexion of Srimati Radharani although He is Krishna Himself.”

Srimati Radharani, Sri Krishna Caitanya and all the emanations of Sri Krishna are eternal extensions, but to state their dependent status, to make that philosophical point, we find these descriptions.
Such are the customs and styles of language in other ages.

Back to Jaiva Dharma: Then the disciple summarizes his understanding, which the guru confirms: “I am a pure soul. Forgetting Krsna, I have fallen into maya. I am bound in the prison of the material world.”

The guru then quotes Srila Jagadananda Pandita’s book Sri Prema-Vivarta (1-13):

cit-kana—jiva, krishna—cin-maya bhaskara
nitya krishne dekhi—krishne karena adara

“‘The living entities are infinitesimal parts of the Supreme Absolute Truth, and Sri Krishna is that Supreme Absolute Personality, transcendental and effulgent. When the living entities realize that Sri Krishna is the eternal and absolute controller, they engage in His loving devotional service.’

krishna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare
nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

“‘When the living entity desires to enjoy separately from Krishna and turns away from Him, the illusory potency of the Lord, maya, immediately takes the soul in her clutches.’

Here the summary of two other translations: “The jiva is cit-kana. Krishna is the transcendental sun. The jivas *always* see Krishna– *nitya* Krsne dekhi– and love Him. As long as the jivas focus their attention on Krishna, they maintain reverence for Him–Krsne karena Adara. However, when they turn their attention– bahirmukha-turn their face, they desire bhoga– material enjoyment, and maya standing nearby-nikata-stha catches him, binds him in her embrace.”

The soul is an eternal, nitya lover, but then wishes to turn away; “However, when’’. This is not a description of a quick-love-and-divorce-at-the-border; the tenet of tatastha-fall-vada. Because it says:”As long as the jivas focus their attention on Krishna, they maintain reverence,” and “they always see and love Krishna””

Summary, on this topic, of the next verses of Prema-vivarta (1-13): “The jiva soul having forgotten his position as the perfect (siddha) servant of Krsna, remains maya’s slave while going from one body to the next… Ever since I left the shelter of your lotus feet, my life has been completely devastated.”

The soul had its position as the perfect– siddha- servant of Krishna– Krishna-dasa. Here we read we were originally eternally perfect, siddha, seeing Krishna, nitya krishne dekhi. Then he ‘forgot’ – bhule – Krishna’s and his own identity.
According to Oxford dictionary to forget means ‘fail to remember or recall, lose the memory of, neglect stop thinking about, put out of one’s mind.’
The soul had Krishna consciousness and Krishna’s darsana-vision, siddha, perfectly, then gave it up.

“I left the shelter of Your feet”.
Shelter means home. The place where one is protected and kept safe. Where there are good lasting relationships.
Being sheltered indicates a long-time safe residing. This is different than a second-loving-Krishna-then-many maha-kalpas-hating-Krishna scenario of the Brahman fall theorists.

Another point on this, “I left the shelter of Your feet.” If the soul having had the shelter of Krsna’s lotus feet was at the border and then left, this is the same as what happened, according to fall-vada, the correct theory, in Goloka. Why the Brahman fall theorists can’t accept fall from the spiritual planets. What they say happened at the border is the same.

Then the answer continues:
“The only way to liberate ourselves from this fallen condition is to remove this initial offense and try to invoke the mercy of the Lord.
In this way we can be released from our illusion and earn back our pure original spiritual identity.” Our pure spiritual original identity is lover of Radha Krsna, nitya krishne dekhi—krishne karena adara, ‘always seeing Krishna and love Him, the jivas focus their attention on Krishna, they maintain reverence for Krishna’. By appropriate sadhana we earn this back.
One tatastha fall acarya said “the conditioned soul has never seen Krishna, has never experienced Krishna.” That is even further away; the conditioned soul didn’t even have a fair choice at the border; it is thus Krishna’s fault that we are here in hell.

Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam (1.4) says differently:
“All the jivas, [the Lord’s] separated parts, are prone to enjoying the fruits of karma. For as long as they are interested in serving Krishna by their own free choice, they continue to be free from the control of either maya or karma. But at the very moment when by their free will they deviate by wanting enjoyment for themselves or by forgetting their eternal function of serving Krishna, they immediately become bewildered by maya and subordinate to the control of karma.”

What is this but the original falldown from the spiritual planets? If one says this is the border– fall down, then it would not say “as long as they are interested in serving Krishna by their own free choice, they continue to be free. But at the very moment when by their free will they deviate by wanting enjoyment for themselves or by forgetting their eternal function of serving Krishna….” This describes a long time functioning in service, not the short border-love-Krishna-and-hate-Krishna. To spell this out: a sequence of change is described here: “For as long as (yata-dina) but at the very moment (kintu ye kshane).” In addition we are told the specific reason for this falldown-the jivas’ free exercise of their own choice. By “their own free choice” (svatantra iccha-krame) they can stay absorbed in Krishna’s service as long as they want, and also “by their free will” (svatantra icchara) they can at any time choose to forget their eternal purpose and fall down into the world of karma.

Chapter 2 dharma

In Jaiva Dharma chapter 2 we read the same sequence of events in some sort of time: “The individual soul may be situated in two states of existence 1. the soul’s pure state and 2. the soul’s state of material bondage. In the pure state the individual soul is manifested as pure spirit only, free of any contact with inanimate matter. In his pure state the soul is still atomic, and for this reason it is possible that he may change his state of existence. …In the conditioned state the individual spirit soul is pathetic, broken and impure. In his original state, the soul is great, unbroken, pure and eternal. When the individual soul is in his pure state, his pure nature is manifested. But when the individual soul is in contact with the illusory potency maya, the soul’s pure state is not manifested. Then his original nature is perverted and he is impure. Then he does not take shelter of Lord Krsna. Then he is tormented by happiness and sufferings. When he forgets the service of Lord Krsna, the soul finds himself situated in the material world of repeated birth and death.”

Comment: This passage first states that the jiva can be pure or impure, and that in his pure state he is capable of changing to another state (his other, impure state) because he is very small. Then this falldown is described more explicitly as a sequence of events. “As long as (yata kshana) but when (yakhana)”; he undergoes a change of state. What brings about that change? He “has forgotten his servitude to Krishna. His original, eternal nature, that was manifested.” And what is the resultant changed state? He is trapped in material existence. The guru states a specific event (ha-ibara-matra-i,”as soon as”) of falling from Krishna. This is not a description of a moment-service-to -krishna-then-resign-at-the-border-event.

Chapter 15 Baladeva’s expansions

Jaiva dharma ch 15: “The place where a river’s waters meet with the land of the shore is called the ‘tata’. The ‘tata’ is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this ‘tata’? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A ‘tata’ is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the ‘tata’. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord’s spiritual potency, cit-sakti, is limitless, and the Lord’s material potency, maya-sakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-sakti of Lord Krsna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit).”

Comment: Again, this is ontology or general philosophy. “That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls.” The souls are not only at the place between the material and spiritual world. The jiva’s are sarva gatah – all-pervading. (Bg 2.24)

The guru confirms this a few lines later: “The actual place of the ‘tata’ may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land.”
Then he says: “If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krsna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krsna’s spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krsna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya’s trap. That is what is meant by ‘the soul’s tatastha nature’.”

Our comment: A poetical description of tatastha philosophy; the souls are all-pervading, and everywhere can turn to Krishna and be mahatmanah…daivim prakrti asritah or turn away from Krishna and be in mama maya (BG 7.14)

Later in chapter 15 the guru says: “All the jivas have appeared from the jiva-sakti of Lord Krishna… Presiding over His jiva-sakti, He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja. Becoming situated in His maya-sakti, He manifests the three Vishnu forms-Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi, and Garbhodakasayi. From His Baladeva form as Sesha tattva He manifests the nitya-mukta jivas, who are associates that render service in eight ways to Lord Krishna, the Seshi tattva. Again becoming Sankarshana as Sesha rupa, He manifests eight types of eternal associates to render service in eight ways to Seshi, Narayana.”
Another translation of this passage is: “When He is manifested in His cit-sakti, He appears as Krsna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-sakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-sakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krsna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesha-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana.”

The guru continues:
Lord Sankarsana incarnates as Maha-Visnu. He becomes the resting-place of the jiva-sakti and appears as the Supersoul in the hearts of all the individual souls residing in the material world. All these individual souls are attracted to maya. As long as they do not attain the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and take shelter of the Lord’s spiritual hladini-sakti, they are defeated by Maya. Numberless souls are defeated by Maya and cast into Her prison. They are the followers of Maya’s three modes.”
Another translation of this passage is: “When presiding over the cit-sakti manifestation, Sri Krishna manifests His original form as Sri Krishna in Vraja, or as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When presiding over the jiva-sakti, He expands as Sri Balarama, His vilasa-murti, which is the expansion that assists Sri Krishna in His pastimes. When presiding over the maya-sakti, He accepts the triplicate Vishnu expansions of Karanodakasayi, Garbhodakasayi, and Kshirodakasayi.
“As Sri Krishna, in Vraja, He brings into existence everything that is fully and wholly spiritual. In Vraja, expanded as Sri Balarama, He generates the nitya-siddha-parshada, the eternally liberated associates and servitors, who execute the eight types of devotional service to Him as Sri Krishna in Vraja. In Vaikuntha, Sri Balarama expands as Sankarshana, Ananta Sesha, to generate the nitya-siddha-parshada of Sri Narayana who accomplish the eight kinds of service to Him as Sri Narayana in Vaikuntha. Sri Sankarshana then further expands as Maha Vishnu to preside over the maya-sakti. Maha Vishnu generates the tatastha-sakti-jivas, borderline potency souls, who are susceptible to the influence of maya, and further expands accepting the form of Paramatma as the heart of the tatastha-sakti-jivas.”

Comment: If this manifestation of the conditioned jivas from one of Lord Baladeva’s expansions is the ultimate cause of their fallen state, then there is no event of falling down; the conditioned souls were always like that. And their being conditioned is due to the Supreme Lord’s choice, not their own, since the text states that they all go to maya.
Thus, this is not the Brahman-tatastha-fall-vada. Maha-Vishnu’s sending jivas into the expanding universes of the material world is one of the Personality of Godhead’s pastimes (SB 2.4.12 sad-udbhava-sthAna-nirodha-lIlayA and CC Adi 5.9 srsti-lila), but the Lord engages in this pastime only those jivas who have already themselves decided to be non-cooperative. Otherwise, Krishna in His Maha-Vishnu expansion is not behaving very fairly, subjecting living entities to suffering as a sport and then making them take the blame. The notion that the Lord makes “a class of ‘weak’ jivas” who suffer unlimitedly in the material world, because in this way the Lord can enjoy more pastimes, is a frightening theory. There are God-fearing people who seriously believe this, including Calvinists and Madhvites, but Lord Caitanya’s bona fide followers and most other Vaishnavas consider God perfectly fair even though He is playful.
Srila Prabhupada explains this Maha-Visnu’s srsti as pastime, also for the reason that by going through this jail house of Sakti, Devi, Durga, the conditioned souls will again go back to the pastimes of the spiritual planets.

And, again some of Srila Bhaktivinoda’s transcendental poetical ontological ornamentation:
“When He is manifested in His cit-sakti, He appears as Krsna and as Narayana, the master of Vaikuntha. When He is manifested in the jiva-sakti, He appears as Baladeva, His pastime form (vilasa-murti) in Vraja. When He is manifested in the maya-sakti, He appears as the three forms of Karanodakasayi Visnu, Garbhodakasayi Visnu and Ksirodakasayi Visnu. In Vraja He appears in His original form, as Krsna, a form manifested by His complete potency. Appearing as Baladeva, He manifests His sesa-tattva (nature of Lord Sesa). In this way He manifests the eight kinds of services the eternally liberated associates offer to Him. Again in Vaikuntha He appears as Sesa-Sankarsana and manifests the eight kinds of service His eternal associates offer to Lord Narayana.”

He is using words as ‘manifesting’, ‘appearing’ for an eternal status quo. In case you are confounded by the wordings, in our time, place and circumstances this, “Presiding over His jiva-sakti, He [Krishna] manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja.” means that the jiva-sakti in general is originally part of the Vraja environment and is not originally situated in Maha-Vishnu. This is confirmed by the Babaji’s-the speaker or guru- statement: “Becoming situated in His maya-sakti, He [Krishna] manifests the three Vishnu forms.” The status quo we have here is Krishna presiding over the cit-sakti (nitya-siddhas) in Vraja, Baladeva presiding over the jiva-sakti (sadhana-siddhas) in Vraja, and Maha-Vishnu and the other Vishnu forms presiding over the maya-sakti

The Bengali text says, ei samasta jiva maya-pravana: “All these jivas are disposed to maya.” Not only the jivas, which Maha-Visnu is dealing with; the conditioned souls. The disciple had already given his understanding, which the guru– babaji- confirmed: “In the svarupa of the jiva there is no product of maya. This has to be accepted. The nature of the jiva can be influenced by maya. This I have also understood.”
The Babaji then says, ye paryanta bhagavat-kripa bale cic-chakti gata hladinira asraya na pan, tata-dina tanhadera maya-karttrika parajita haibara sambhavana: “As long as these tatastha-sakti-jivas generated by Maha Vishnu do not receive the shelter of the hladini-sakti, which is bestowed by His mercy alone, they are always prone to be subjugated by maya. When captivated by maya, they are obedient to the dictates of tri-guna, the three modes of material nature.” This can be taken as referring to the jivas now in this material world. These would be the jivas, among all those who are disposed to maya, that have actually come under the control of maya. But it can also be taken as referring to all the jivas, who are eternally in the marginal position by their very constitution as jiva-sakti. Unless they are at every moment taking shelter of the hladini-sakti, and thus maintaining their spiritual position, they can also come under the influence of maya, a possibility to which they are disposed by their very nature.
The fundamental meaning of the Babaji’s answer is that only the jiva-sakti manifests jivas, all of whom are disposed to maya by their marginal nature, which distinguishes them as an entire class from the cit-sakti personalities.
And he stated that there are three kinds of jivas whom the Lord manifests in different situations, as servants of the amsas and kalas of Baladeva . This is not to say, however, that before their current position these jivas, especially those that are presently entangled in maya, did not have a different service. Since the Babaji had stated that the Lord manifests (prakata karena) the living entities in various stages of life. We know the words prakata, “manifest,” and aprakata, “unmanifest”; these are used to describe the manifestation and nonmanifestation of the Lord’s pastimes. Used in this way, the words have nothing at all to do with the origin of the Lord’s pastimes but rather describe whether at a particular moment the pastimes of the Lord are manifest or not manifest in a particular situation. Therefore to say that the jivas are made prakata in a particular situation does not in any way refer to their ultimate origin but simply describes that a particular living entity is manifest or not in a particular situation at a particular time.

The whole chapter 15 does not in any way state that there is a class of souls who originally originate from Maha-Vishnu. It is well known from Srimad-Bhagavatam that Maha-Vishnu glances upon material nature and by this glance the conditioned souls are placed within the expanding universes. That is described.

Chapter 16 Creation pastime

The same srsti lila or creation pastime is in chapter 16, Jaiva Dharma:
“When He glances at Maya, Lord Karanodakasayi Visnu sends numberless atomic spirit souls to the material world. Because they are now on Maya’s side, the many creations of Maya now enter the pathway of their eyes. These souls have all the qualities of the soul I have already described. However, because they are atomic in size, from the border of matter and spirit (tatastha) they must place their glance on either the spiritual world or the material world. The individual souls are fallible. How can this not be? These souls did not obtain the spiritual strength that comes from the Lord’s mercy, mercy that comes from properly serving Him. That is why these souls develop a desire to enjoy the pleasures that Maya offers. These souls enter Maya’s world, and there Maya imprisons them for what seems an eternity. When these souls again turn to spiritual life and service to the Lord, they can attain the Lord’s mercy, which will give them spiritual strength. Then they can return to the spiritual world.”

Comment: the text says that in this marginal state the jiva is fallible,” sarvada tatastha-bhave (“always in the marginal condition”). Not only Maha-Vishnu’s jivas are marginal, all jivas are always marginal, also the associates of Mula-Sankarsana (Baladeva’s expansion in Dvaraka, one of the adi-catur-vyuha) and Maha-Sankarsana (dvitiya-catur-vyuha).
The”fallible” jivas are marginal; and marginality is the perpetual condition of all jivas, of the liberated jivas also. This marginal condition is specifically said to be due to the jivas’ being infinitesimal, and all jivas are small.
Then the text says cid-bala labha karena nai (“they don’t attain spiritual power”) and mayika-vishaye abhinivishta haiya mayate nitya-baddha (“becoming absorbed in illusory sense gratification, they become nitya-baddha”)
Since this passage begins stating that the atomic conscious jivas, which come out like rays from Maha-Vishnu’s glance at maya, are also uncountable, this whole passage is about Maha-Vishnu’s glance at maya, which is a repeated event in the Causal Ocean, and material time is also a component of this glance. The conditioned jivas’ impregnation into maya is not their ultimate origin outside the scope of material time; it is only what happens to them subsequent to their mistake of choosing independence. All jivas are always marginal. They all share the same potential to fall or not. Thus there are not three types of jivas– from the 3 expansions of Baladeva, this is never taught. All jiva’s, from all the 3 expansions of Baladeva, are tatatstha.
And the tatastha-fall description is again poetical ontology; these are simply descriptions that the souls are always tatastha.

From Brahman only fallen Brahmavadis
From Maha-visnu only conditioned souls

There is no gazing to Krishna or maya of those who fall from Brahman, because these are impersonalists who need many, many births to become accustomed to Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Liberated brahmavadis in the Brahman, awakening in the brahmajyoti always fall ye’nye’ravindaksa…. patanty adah…. sb 10.2.32
“O lotus-eyed Lord, although nondevotees who accept severe austerities and penances to achieve the highest position may think themselves liberated, their intelligence is impure. They fall down from their position of imagined superiority because they have no regard for Your lotus feet.”

Nor are the souls gazing, because all souls emanating from Maha-Visnu do so with their eyes closed. They’ll open their eyes 720.000 years later. Nor is there any maya to look at, since the cosmic creation and its forms are coming 720.000 years later.

The egg of Brahma is for 1000 years of the demigods bobbing on the causal ocean (SB 3.20.15). And after 1000 years of the demigods meditating, Brahma starts the process of creating the content of the universe (SB 2.9.8, SB 3.6.38). The souls, coming from the glance and pores of Maha-Visnu, awake from susupti after 2000 Years OF the DEVAS. These conditioned souls are in susupti since the last mahapralaya 311,04 trillion years ago. They don’t gaze at Krishna or maya, because they are fast asleep, with their spiritual eyes and other senses closed.

The souls falling from yjoti are brahmavadis only, who come from maya’s world, after sadhana. But
”Because he falls down from brahma-sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna… in His lila or sport.” (SPL, 1973)

They don’t deserve the spiritual world. first they have to do sadhana-bhakti. They fall to the place from where they ascended.
In the following conversation Srila Prabhupada states that the Brahmayjoti is full of impersonalists, who ‘’ have become liberated’’ from the material world. It is not a reservoir of ‘new’ souls who from there, go to the border of the material and spiritual worlds and then go to matter or Krsna, as Brahman fall vada theorize.

Revatinandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahma-jyotir, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahma-jyotir is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I’m a jiva soul, and I go to the brahma-jyotir I’m still fallen.
Prabhupada: Yes.
Revatinandana: That means all jiva souls there are also fallen souls.
Prabhupada: Yes.
…
Revatinandana: The thing that was bothering me when I thought of this, that the brahma-jyotir, if it is jivas, that they’re all fallen souls, then I thought…
Prabhupada: Fallen anywhere. When Krishna is forgotten, that is fallen.
Revatinandana: Yes. But what I thought was just like in a room there is so many particles of light. Already inconceivable. And, then the whole brahma-jyotir is all fallen souls, and they become so inconceivable…
Prabhupada: Not so fallen as they are in the matter.
Syamasundara: Yes. Separated.
Revatinandana: But not in their constitutional position.
Prabhupada: They’re not as fallen as those who are in this material.
Revatinandana: That’s right. But still if they go there, they will sometimes come back here again.
Prabhupada: Yes. They are not pure. They are not pure. That is stated in the Bhagavata. Avisuddha-buddhayah [SB 10.2.32]. Avisuddha. Avisuddha means not purified.
Revatinandana: Are they less fallen because they are doing some service by lighting it up?
Prabhupada: It is clearly stated: avisuddha-buddhayah. Avisuddha. Buddhi means intelligence, avisuddha means unclean, contaminated.
Revatinandana: Unclean intelligence. So they realize…
Prabhupada: They think that they have become liberated, but sastra says “No, it is not yet liberated.” Avisuddha-buddhayah. Still there is contamination.
Revatinandana: I see. It was just making my head spin to think of so many fallen souls. If there they also, to some extent they also fall. Here there are so many fallen souls. Then…
Prabhupada: Ananta. You cannot say how many. Ananta. Anantaya kalpate. Ananta means unlimited number. There is no question of counting.
Syamasundara: Our brain is so tiny.
Revatinandana: Yes.
Prabhupada: Therefore acintya. Therefore acintya, inconceivable.
(Room Conversation—August 17, 1971, London)

Our comment: Time is eternal, the material world is eternal – eternally coming and going-, thus, according to one reasoning, we can say, there is time enough to fill up the infinite brahmayjoti with impersonalists.
Alternatively, this is eternally the best possible world.; the perfect set up of the infinity.

Thus, in brahman are only liberated brahmavadis.
Brahman is not the origin of souls, the origin is krishna lila.
Souls rise up into the Brahman effulgence at sayujya-mukti and fall again– patanty adha (SB 10.2.32); there is a constantly coming and going of little gods-jiva’s.

Why would the Lord lay down souls, in empty sleep or slumber forever, in Brahman, to wake them up later, if He needs more players in His sports. He is lilamaya, anandamaya’bhyasat. He wants everyone in His pastimes always. Sarve sukhino bhavantu. Let everyone be always happy.
Why would Krsna be so unable as to not have all souls eternally in always expanding ecstatic bliss. Why He needed to evolve and increase His associates gradually. Why does He need to start with zero devotees and then expand, as a small-time king in this world? If a king starts a kingdom, he doesn’t lock some citizens away to participate later in the good life
Eko bahu syama – The souls are meant to enjoy with Krsna. Parents create children to enjoy. Immediately the mother carefully eats to nourish the child properly. She conducts herself to protect her womb. The father works to secure a happy home and future. The parents meditate on the future pastimes.

This is apasiddhanta. As the Upanisads teach:

om purnam adah purnam idam
purnat purnam udacyate
purnasya purnam adaya
purnam evavasisyate

“The completely Perfect is complete and perfect.”

There is, as stated in Bhakti rasamrta sindhu, a perfect, more perfect, most perfect. (NOD 2.1.221)
But, there is no void in the kingdom of God (Srila Prabhupada writes in Bg 6.15 purport) which can be filled up;
a void or sleeping field of souls, to be cultivated or activated. The Absolute Complete perfect Whole has no imperfections. There is the field of Brahmayjoti and nirvana or causal ocean for the brahma-vadis and sunyavadis (certain sects of Buddhists), but that is chosen by these souls out of their own free will. It is not the eternal incomplete design of Krishna, as nitya-patita– and Brahman-tatastha-vadis believe.

When responsible parents make babies they don’t store them in ice to hibernate in peace (comparable to existence in brahmajyoti) . So why would All-Love, Sri Sri Radha Krsna have designated their eternal extensions or expansions, their parts and parcels, the souls in the Brahmajyoti. Better keep them home, the best place, in Krsnaloka.

Brahman existence is always deprecated in scripture.

See:
Existence in brahmajyoti is stunted existence. This is not “pure” liberation but semi-liberation, because there is no Krsna consciousness. (CC. Madhya 6.269; SB 10.2.32 avisuddha buddhaya – impure intelligence and vimukta manina, they think they are liberated.)

kaivalyam narakayate
kaivalyam—the pleasure of merging into the existence of Brahman; narakayate—is considered hellish.
For a devotee, the pleasure of merging into the existence of Brahman is considered hellish. (Prabodhananda Sarasvati from Caitanya-candramrita 5)

If any of the conditioned souls desire to become content by merging into that glowing light, then that would be just like being satisfied at night with the glow of lightning bugs in the absence of the sun. The insignificant light emitted by such insects will certainly never serve as a replacement for the radiant sun, and similarly the devotee of Krishna is never content to merge with the Brahman effulgence, which is very feeble in comparison to the Lord’s original form of bliss. (Song – Merging with Brahman is Foolish Sings Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

Sanatana Gosvamin Brhad Bhagavatamrta 2.2.215 describes the happiness in the brahmajyoti as monotonous, undeveloped and so vague as to be virtually nonexistent.

In the brahmajyoti there is only sat (eternality), no cit (knowledge) and ananda (bliss). CC.Adi 2.5.

We have no appetite (Ruchi) for the knowledge of Brahman which is restricted to realization of mere Chit only; for, spiritual sportive pastimes have no place in it…Brahman is immutable, incorporeal, invisible or formless, without attributes and dry of Prema…It is clear from the above that you never can know the spiritual sportive pastimes of Para-Brahman if you be dazzled by mere Chit-swarup of Brahman which is only a semblance of the eternal light of Chit. Brother! Look forward!! Enter into the Kingdom of Godhead after dashing through the brilliancy of Chit pure and simple — there you will be able to realize the spiritual pastimes of Godhead, then you will be able to taste the ambrosia of an incessant Brahma-Rasa. No longer will your soul remain wooden-like. (Bhativinoda Thakura, Nam Bhajan)

rasa—of the nectar of transcendental mellows; virahitan—devoid, dried-up; dhik—to hell with; gauranga—to Lord Gauranga; pranati—obeisances; rahitan—those who are devoid of; shushka–dry; tarka—logic; adi—beginning with; dagdhan—burned up.
To hell with those who have been burned by the dry logic of the mayavada philosophy. (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

What is the mukti? It is as good as hell. Mukti means to merge into the Brahman effulgence, but there is no service of Krishna. It is simply merging, to become one. Just like sunshine, and if you are put into the sunshine, what benefit do you get? Simply to have scorching heat on, that’s all. What benefit would you get? And mukti is like that. (Srila Prabhupada lecture -The Nectar of Devotion, Bombay, January 8, 1973)

134 The great sages named Astavakra, Dattatreya and many other yogis along with the five-faced Shiva, all gave up the philosophy of impersonalism and instead engaged themselves in meditation on the lotus feet of Shri Krishna Chaitanya. Becoming detached from all forms of liberation, they especially rejected the desire to merge in the all-pervading light of the brahman effulgence.

135 Sometime I will wander and wander throughout the forest of Rudravan and come to the place called Medra-sthala. Sitting there, I will meditate on the lotus feet of Lord Gaura. Then I will behold a supreme beautiful goddess appearing nearby.

136 Acknowledging the presence of this forest-goddess, I will respectfully bow down to her. Getting up, I will ask, “Please tell me, mother – what is your name?” With tears in her eyes, the goddess will sadly reply, “Listen, dear child, my sorrow is impossible to describe.”

137 “There are five of us who are daughters of the five kinds of jnana (transcendental knowledge). We are the five types of liberation – please listen to our names: Salokya, Samipya, Sarsti, Sayuja and Nirvana. I have been given the name Nirvana, for I am the form of liberation involving total annihilation of the soul.

138 “My four sisters have gone off to Vaikunthapur, leaving me behind. Thus left alone, I have become bewildered. By the mercy of Lord Shiva, Dattatreya and many other sages were endeavouring to attain me for some time.

139 “But now even those sages have rejected me and are living somewhere in Rudra-dvipa. All the people are singing of this incident. Uselessly I have been searching for the rishis and still cannot locate them anywhere! Oh when will I find them again?”

140 “Shri Gauranga Prabhu has delivered everyone, yet still He remains merciless only to me. Therefore I will find a place right now in which to give up my life and all people shall know that place to be called Nidaya (merciless).

141 Just by hearing the very name of Sayujya, the liberation of merging impersonally with the Lord, my heart will tremble as if I had heard the name of the witch Putana. Trembling in great fear I will cover my eyes and drop to the ground on the spot.” (Navadvipa Bhava Taranga, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

Material suicide causes loss of the physical body, and spiritual suicide causes loss of the individual identity. Mayavadi philosophers desire to lose their individuality and merge into the impersonal spiritual brahmajyoti existence. (SB 3.14.24.p)

The ambitious Mayavadi philosophers desire to merge into the existence of the Lord, and this may be accepted as sayujya-mukti. However, this form of mukti means denying one’s individual existence. In other words, it is a kind of spiritual suicide. (CC Madhya 6.169 p)

If a living being refuses to engage in these transcendental blissful pastimes, he is at liberty to merge into the Absolute. This is something like a son’s committing suicide instead of living with his father according to the rules the father sets down. By committing suicide, the son thus sacrifices the happiness he could have enjoyed by engaging in a filial loving relationship with his father and enjoying his father’s estate. (Mukunda Mala stotra 4)

If merging with the Supreme Brahman were the living entities’ ultimate goal, then we would have to imagine that the living entities have been created by the Lord out of cruelty. (Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura Krishna-samhita, 10 Conclusion)

Self-annihilation has its excellence in Brahma-dhama
kaivalya or merging into the Brahman constitutes the line of demarcation between the world of limitation and the transcendental world….. These conditions are the simple absence of misery arising from mundane affinity but are not real happiness or felicity. If the absence of misery be called a bit of pleasure then also that bit is very small and of no consequence. It is not sufficient to destroy the condition of materiality.
(Brahma-samhita 5.34)

Comment: brahmavada does not give the param drstva, the higher experience, the ecstasy of loving Krishna, thus patanty adah (SB 10.2.32), one will fall  down into maya.

“I am Brahman,”… That is like convalescent stage. Just like a man has no fever but he is not cured. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.6.1, Madras, January 2, 1976)

A pure devotee does not like even to hear about sayujya-mukti, which inspires him with fear and hatred. Indeed, the pure devotee would rather go to hell than merge into the effulgence of the Lord. There are two kinds of sayujya-mukti—merging into the Brahman effulgence and merging into the personal body of the Lord. Merging into the Lord’s body is even more abominable than merging into His effulgence. (CC Madhya 6.268-269)

Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 9.267): “Pure devotees reject the five kinds of liberation; indeed, for them liberation is very insignificant because they see it as hellish.”

One who is desirous of merging into Brahman is overwhelmed by the excellence of his unattained goal. When attained, his long cherished wonder in the form of Brahman becomes abominable. One who desires to become one with Brahman is very restless, being bound by material shackles. (BS, Brahmana and Vaisnava, appendixes: The varnasrama of Vaisnavas)

ajnasyardha-prabuddhasya
sarvam brahmeti yo vadet
maha-naraka-jateshu
tenaiva viniyojitah

“The half-awake fool that proclaims, `Everything is Brahman,’ takes birth again in a terrible hell.”
-Vasishta-sastra

Our comment: According to the Brahmayjoti-fall-vada, Krishna kept us cruelly eternally in hell, contracted in a wooden-like status, in monotony.

Tatastha is stopover from Krishna’s lila down

Where in scripture there is this theory described:
“souls fall from brahman (for the first time, originally, had been only always there) when the brahmandas are already created. Maha Visnu will awaken them from susupti when the universes have the variety of activities, so that the souls can look up and down and make their choice”.
Jaiva dharma speaks only of conditioned souls emanating from maha-visnu. The tatastha descriptions are ontology.
Where, how maha-visnu wakes souls in the brahman from susupti, when these souls are still in brahman? Maha-visnu enters there? Why he wakes only these, and leaves the others there in ‘’worse then hell’’, why he is partial? Why he designated them to be in brahman, since eternity, and others as nitya-siddha-jivas in goloka?

What ‘is’ sometimes described is that they ‘naturally’ fall from Brahman, seeking ananda. But then they land in maya, at the place from where they ascended.

The choice at the border descriptions, is the second choice for the rebels of the spiritual world.
Original Fall is from Radha-Syama in the spiritual world.
Second fall Srila Prabhupada writes in SB 3.12.3: “The Lord first of all tries to protect him from the trap, but when the living entity persists on gliding down to hell, the Lord helps him to forget his real position to give the chance to see if he is happy by misusing his independence.”
This is a stopover at the border of the material and spiritual world where the soul gets another chance.
How it can be otherwise? Thakura Bhaktivinoda would write contradictions. See all the places where he writes also about falling from Krishna-lila and going from Radha-Syama to Maya-devi Dhama:

“Leaving the company of Radha-Syama in Vraja-Dhama (ChAdi’rAdhA-syAme braja-dhAme) you have come to this material world and suffered a host of painful miseries (bhugcho hethA nAnA-klesa).
You are actually composed of pure spiritual knowledge and bliss (tumi suddha cidAnanda) whose only happiness is found in service to Krsna (Krsna-sevA tA’r Ananda). Alas, you have fallen into the hands of the material elements (panca-bhUter hAte pode’ hAy) trapped within the prison-house of Maya-devi (mAyA-devir kArAgAre).”

Baul Sangit (12)

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura describes in the next quote the fall of the soul from Goloka’s-rasa-lila

“ Verse (13)
cid-dhama-bhaskara krsna, tanra jyotirgata
ananta citkana jiba tisthe avirata

Krsna is the shining sun of this all-cognizant spiritual abode, and within His effulgence dwell innumerable fine particles of pure cognizance called jiva.

(14)
sei jiba prema-dharmi, krsna-gata-prana
sada krsnakrstha, bhakti-sudha kore’ pana

These jiva souls are by very nature full of pure ecstatic love and are all the dearly beloved of Lord Krsna. Always being attracted by Krsna, they continuously drink the ambrosial nectar of devotion.

(15)
nana-bhava-misrita piya dasya-rasa
krsner ananta-gune sada thake basa

Enjoying a mixture of various moods in the mellow of servitude, the jivas eternally remain subjugated and controlled by Krsna’s unlimited virtuous qualities.

(16)
krsna mata, krsna pita, krsna sahka, pati
ei sab bhinna-bhava krsna kore rati

They also love Krsna in all the different moods of being related to Him as a mother, father, friend, or husband.

(17)
krsna se purusa ek nitya brndabane
jiba-gana nari-brnda, rame krsna sane

Eternally in Vrndavana Krsna is the only male (purusa), and all the jivas there enjoy pastimes in His company in the role of females (prakrti).

(18)
sei to’ ananda-lila ja’r nai anta
ataeva krsna-lila akhanda ananta

There is no end to all of these blissful pastimes; therefore Krsna’s pastimes are known for being undisputedly supreme and unlimited.

(19)
je-sab jiber ‘bhoga-banca upajilo
purusa bhavete ta’ra jade paravesilo

All the souls, in whom the desire to enjoy separately awaken, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being a male (a purusa).

(20)
maya-karya jada maya–nitya-sakti-chaya
krsna-dasi sei satya, kara-kartri maya

Illusory material activities as well as maya herself are both the shadow reflections of the eternal potency. In reality, maya is the eternal maidservant of Krsna, but her job is to be in charge of operating the prison-house of the material world.

(21)
sei maya adarser samasta bisesa
loiya gathilo bisva jahe purna klesa

This illusory energy maya, has created the material universe exactly like an imitation model of the real spiritual variegatedness, but with the added feature of being full of various miseries.

(22)
jiba jadi hoilena krsna-bahimukha
mayadevi tabe ta’r jachilena sukha

If by chance a living entity becomes averse to the Supreme Lord Krsna, then Mayadevi’s duty is to voluntarily offer her temptations of material happiness.

(23)
maya-sukhe matta jiba sri-krsna bhulilo
sei se avidya-base asmita janmilo

Intoxicated by maya’s illusory happiness, the living entity then forgets Krsna. Under the influence of such ignorance, false egoistic selfishness arises.

(29)
bhramite bhramite jadi sadhu-sanga hoy
punaraya gupta nitya-dharmer udoy

Thus wandering and wandering, if by chance the poor soul gets the association of the devotees of the Lord, then her eternal nature, which has been for so long covered over, will once again become aroused.

(30)
sadhu-sange krsna-katha hoy alocana
purva-bhava udi’ kate mayar bandhan

By discussing topics concerning Krsna in the association of devotees, and thus awakening her previous mentality of servitude to Krsna, all bondage to maya’s illusion become severed.

(31)
krsna-prati jiba jabe korena iksana
bidya-rupa maya kore’ bandhana chedana

When the conditioned soul thus looks towards Krsna, then by such an act, this very same maya, in the form of transcendental knowledge, severs all of her material bonds.

(32)
mayika jagate bidya nitya-brndabana
jiber sadhana-janya kore’ bibhavana

The seat of this transcendental knowledge is present within this very universe as the eternal Vrndavana-dhama in India . Lord Krsna expands His abode and pastimes at this Vrndavana just to facilitate the conditioned souls’ practice of devotional service.

(33)
sei brndabane jiba bhavavistha ho’ye
nitya seva labha kore’ caitanya-asraye

When she comes into contact with this Vrndavana, the living entity becomes overwhelmed and lost in emotional ecstasy. Remaining under the shelter of Lord Caitanya, she attains eternal service.

(34)
prakatita lila, ar goloka-bilasa
ek tattva, bhinna noy, dvividha prakasa

The Lord’s pastimes of appearing in this world, as well as His pastimes in Goloka, are one and the same truth. Being non-different, they are simply two types of manifestations of the same pastimes.

(35)
nitya-lila nitya-dasa-ganer niloy
e prakata-lila baddha-jiber asroy

The eternal pastimes in Goloka are the abode of all the eternally liberated servitors, whereas the manifest pastimes in the material world are the refuge for all of the bound-up conditioned living entities.

(36)
ataeva brndabana jiber avasa
asar samsare nitya-tattver prakasa

Therefore Vrndavana is the living entities original eternal home, manifesting its own eternally true nature within the dead material world.” (Kalyana Kalpataru)

In many other places the Thakura writes the same.

sphulinga riddhagner iva cid-anavo jiva-nicaya
hareh suryasyevaprithag api tad-bheda-vishayah
vashe maya yasya prakriti-patir eveshvara iha
sa jivo mikto ‘pi prakriti-vasha-yogyah sva-gunatah

sphulingah—sparks; riddha—large; agneh—of a fire; iva—just like; cit—of spiritual energy; anavah—atoms; jiva–of living entities; nicayah—multitudes; hareh—of Lord Hari; suryasya—of the sun; iva—just like; aprithak—not different; api—and; tat—from that; bheda-vishayah—different; vashe—in the control; maya—illusory potency, maya; yasya—of whom; prakriti—of material energy; patih—the master; eva—certainly; ishvarah—controller; iha—here; sah—He; jivah—the living entity; muktah—liberated; api—although; prakriti—of material nature; vasha—to the control; yogyah—suitable; sva—own; gunatah–because of the quality.

Just as the sparks are to a great fire, and just as the particles of sunlight are to the sun, in the same way, the living entities are simultaneously one and different from Lord Hari. Lord Hari is always the supreme master of the illusory potency maya, whereas the living entities, even in the liberated condition, are liable to become subject to the influence of maya, because of their smallness.”

(T 80 Shri Gauranga-Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram
Auspicious Verses for Remembering Lord Gauranga’s Pastimes)

(4)

gopinatha, ami to’ tomar jana
tomare chadiya, samsar bhajinu,
bhuliya apana-dhana

Oh Gopinatha, I am actually Your eternal devotee, but somehow or other I have abandoned You to worship this useless material world. Thus I have completely forgotten about the supreme treasure which is my birthright.

(Song 2 – Gopinatha)
KrishnaKrishnaKrishnaSong 1 – Sambandha (Relationship with Krsna)

“As long as the jiva takes full shelter of the Supreme Lord he remains a resident of the spiritual planets, but when he forgets the innate spiritual knowledge about the Lord he is placed outside the transcendental realm. The jiva is compared to a ray of the sun, but under the cloud of maya, or the illusory energy, his conditioned state is an unconstitutional and hence unnatural term of existence. The jiva exists to support and participate in the Supreme Lord’s transcendental pastimes, but his marginal nature makes him vulnerable and can bring him under maya’s spell, to suffer the pangs of repeated birth and death. But as soon as the individual spiritual spark awakens to realize his original self, the dark mist of ignorance, or maya, dissipates, and the long suffering of repeated birth and death at last comes to a halt. He regains his true spiritual identity.”
Sri Sanmodana Bhashyam – Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura’ s commentary on Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Sri Sikshashtaka (1)

Question: Are all souls of one type, or are there different relative levels?
Answer: There are different relative levels among the jivas.
Question: How many levels are there?
Answer: There are basically two: the level of the jiva’s real and eternal form (svarupa), and the level of the jiva’s dream of a false material designation (upadhi).

Question: Why don’t all souls remain in their true position, free from material designation?
Answer: Those souls who accept nothing other than service as their eternal occupation never lose their transcendental position (svarupa). Their attraction to Krsna is everlasting. But those who become obsessed with their own separate so-called happiness turn away from Krsna and are immediately shackled by maya in the prison of the material world.” (VSM 7: Different Levels of Jivas, Seventh Chapter, Different Levels of Jivas)

Our comment: “remain in their true position’’ they were in nitya-mukti. But in the spiritual planets, ‘’ those who become obsessed with their own separate so-called happiness turn away from Krsna and are immediately shackled by maya in the prison of the material world’’

Next quote:
“phalgum nirarthakam viddhi
sarvam jadamayam jagat
bahirmukhasya jivasya
griham eva puratanam

phalgum—false; nirarthakam—useless; viddhi—please know; sarvam—all; jadamayam—material; jagat—universe; bahirmukhasya—who has turned his face away; jivasya—of the soul; griham—home; eva—indeed; puratanam—ancient.

Please know that the material world is meaningless and illusory. It is an ancient prison house for the souls who have turned their faces from the Supreme Lord.

Commentary by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

The material world is meaningless and illusory. It is an ancient prison house for the souls who have turned their faces from the Supreme Lord.
The material world created by Maya is a useless and illusory place for the individual souls, who are small particles of spirit. Why do the individual souls reside in this worthless place? The answer to this question is that the material world is an ancient prison for the individual souls who have turned their faces away from the Supreme Lord. Only the souls who have turned their faces away from the Supreme Lord have entered the material world. The souls who do not turn their faces away from the Supreme Lord remain always free from the prison of matter. They do not enter the material world. They stay always in the spiritual world. The Maya-sakti (potency of material illusion) is always under Lord Krishna’s control. As darkness must stay always far away from the shining sun, so the illusory potency Maya must stay always far away from Lord Krishna, far away from the spiritual world. The individual souls who have turned their faces away from Lord Krishna are attracted to the bewildering variety of Maya’s world. In this way they fall under Maya’s spell. In truth the individual souls are always beyond the modes of material nature. But when they fall under Maya’s spell, the individual souls think they themselves are products of the material modes. Then they try to enjoy the pathetic pleasures the three material modes offer. That is the condition of the souls who have turned their faces away from the Supreme Lord. The other spirit souls, the souls who remain in the spiritual world, do not turn their faces away from the Supreme Lord. Only the souls who turn their faces away from the Supreme Lord leave the spiritual world and go to the world of matter. (Tattva viveka, Dvitiyanubhava, 12)

Our comment : There is no border-fall here. Some souls who don’t turn away, they stay in the spiritual world, but some turn away from residence in the spiritual world.

“The constitutional position of a pure living entity is beyond the gross and subtle bodies. The samvit aspect of the external potency is known in the scriptures as nescience. Due to this nescience, the gross and subtle bodies of the living entities are created. When pure living entities reside in Vaikuntha, the first knot of nescience, in the form of false ego, does not entangle them. Pure living entities cannot remain steady after giving up spiritual activities. Therefore as soon as the living entities become situated in their own happiness through the minute independence given by the Lord, they become shelterless and are compelled to take shelter of Maya. On account of this, pure living entities have no shelter other than Vaikuntha. The living entities of Vaikuntha are very insignificant, like fireflies in comparison to the powerful sunlike Lord. As soon as the living entity leaves Vaikuntha, he is simultaneously awarded a subtle body and thrown into the material world, created by Maya.” (Krishna-samhita 2.41)

“When he is imprisoned in the material world, the spirit soul does not lose his original spiritual form, the form he had in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha. However, because of contact with matter the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. Still, his original spiritual form does not cease to exist. The soul’s faith, desire and happiness are then directed toward matter. The soul’s rasas, which were originally manifested in the spiritual world, are then perverted and reflected into the pains, pleasures and various other states in the material world. What do I call perverted reflections? When the original pure nature is transformed and the result is different from the original nature, that is called a perverted reflection. Therefore within the perverted reflection the pure original may also be seen. Material happiness and other material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.” (Prema-pradipa, p. 83)

“The soul’s original nature (the nature of the liberated soul) becomes reflected in the mind of the soul imprisoned in the world of matter. When the rebellious soul turns away from the Supreme Lord, the spiritual love that is part of the soul’s original nature becomes changed into love for the objects of the material senses.” (Prema-pradipa, p. 89)

“The individual soul naturally resides in Vaikuntha. If he somehow comes to the material world, the individual soul brings with him his spiritual form made of cit. Pervertedly reflected in the material world those things of cit are called by the name ‘matter.'” (Prema-pradipa, p. 96)

“When we are imprisoned in the material world we search for what had been in the Vaikuntha-rasas.” (Prema-pradipa, p. 96)

“If we accept that the jivas (nitya-baddha jivas) are created with material characteristics, then Mayavada creeps in and establishes itself. Jivas are pure spiritual entities. Due to his tatastha nature, he is susceptible to be bound by maya. That happens only when he forgets his constitutional position as Krishna’s servant.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 49)

“There is no guna (quality) or dharma (property) of maya in the constitution of the jivas… The jivas in reality, are pure cit beings, constituted of cit properties. On account of their marginal position (as the border potency), they are liable to be bound down by the property of maya. And that too, occurs only when they forget their natural function as Krishna’s servitors.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 36)

“From the knowledge of that sambandha tattva we have learnt that the jiva, having forgotten his eternal relation with Krishna, has fallen into the sea of samsara (worldly life with succession of births) full of three kinds of scorching troubles and has been suffering from much distress. Deliberating on the means how that suffering can be prevented, we have known that if the relation referred to above be re-established, all troubles will be removed and the highest bliss achieved.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 43)

“The jiva has forgotten that he is the eternal servitor of Krishna; for this fault maya has tied him at the neck.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 44)

“If we adopt the line of pure knowledge, it will be clear that jiva is not the eternal inhabitant of this sorrowful world. The present body of jiva is not his eternal body… Just as God has His svarupa-vigraha, so jiva has eternal cit-vigraha– spiritual form. That cit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings… The thought of cit body of jiva which was existent prior to its contact with matter is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the thought of self has become foreign and unjust.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, pp. 156-157)

“The identification that ‘I am in essence the eternal servant of Krishna,’ which was in cit constituent of jiva becomes transformed as servant of vishaya, i.e. matter. In this way, jiva’s bondage with maya is established.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p.157)

“The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarupa as servant of God.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 160)

“Misidentification of jiva’s own svarupa and oblivion of Krishna’s svarupa are the two great evils. From these evils arises jiva’s aversion to Krishna and on account of this aversion jiva falls into cyclic rotation of karma-marga, created by maya.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 196)

“Jiva who is essentially cit had pure self-identification/consciousness that he is servant of God and possessed such signs, according to his particular nature. That self-identification took recourse to pure self-identification of jiva whose nature is cit only. By taking to cit-svarupa he had the sense of determining right and wrong and also pure intellect for enjoying joy. He had knowledge that God is the Ultimate Being and taking Him as vishaya he had a mind capable of meditation. But coming in contact with matter these have been turned into gross material body and mind thereby those pure original propensities have become impure. Therefore that rasa which taking to cit-svarupa was pure bhava before has been perverted by its impure reflection… Therefore rasa is one, when it remains in eternal pure stage it is ecstasy and joy but when it remains in material stage it is pleasure or pain arising out of matter.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 220)

“Jiva and God both taste rasa. When jiva tastes, then God becomes tasted. When God tastes, then jiva [devotee] becomes tasted. Both are reciprocal. In reality rasa is the only object to be tasted. The process of rasa is only to be tasted and the Sentience alone can taste it… From pure rati, it can rise up to the highest limit of maha-bhava. But when pure rati falls down in this mundane world, it mixes up with matter and becomes perverted. It then creates material infatuation.” (Sri Caitanya Sikshamritam, p. 228)

Some more quotes from Bhaktivinoda Thakura on this from Jaiva Dharma:

Jaiva-dharma, Chapter One:

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead is the master of the illusory potency maya. Maya is under His control. On the other hand, the individual spirit soul may in some circumstances find himself under the control of maya…. Thus the individual spirit soul is a servant of Lord Krsna eternally. The spirit soul is manifested from the Lord’s tatastha sakti. For this it may be concluded that the individual spirit soul is simultaneously one and different from the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
“The individual soul may sometimes find himself under the control of the illusory potency maya,
“The eternal nature and duty of the individual soul is service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If he forgets this duty, the individual souls comes under maya’s control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world.
“It is not possible to give an historical account describing when, in time, the soul first fell into the material world. That is why it is said ‘anadi-bahirmukha’ (the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial).

This was paraphrase of and elaboration on Lord Caitanya’s instructions in Sri Caitanya-caritamrita (Madhya 20.108, 117) which Premadasa Babaji Mahasaya, the speaker of this passage of Jaiva-dharma, cited just two pages before:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya—krishnera ‘nitya-dasa’
krishnera ‘tatastha-sakti’, ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’
krshna bhuli’ sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha
ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord. Forgetting Krishna, the living entity has been attracted by the external feature from time immemorial. Therefore the illusory energy [maya] gives him all kinds of misery in his material existence.”

Comment: this describes the falldown of a living entity who knew Krishna and was serving Him but then intentionally forgot Him and came under the control of maya; This is conclusive for the fall down theory; prior to having karma the jiva was somewhere else and that somewhere else was Vaikuntha, because that is where there is no material karma, where there is Krishna and the service to Krishna. True, Krishna is everywhere, but here it is specifically said: “If he forgets this duty, the individual souls come under maya’s control. Then the soul stays away from Lord Krsna. That staying away from Lord Krsna means that the soul enters the material world.”

One may try to interpret krishna bhuli’ in this statement by Lord Caitanya to mean that the jiva has always been forgetting Krishna; that it is an unchanging state of forgetfulness, but then other words should be used, e.g. simply stating ‘the soul is eternally without the vision -darsana– of Krishna, since according to the Oxford dictionary to forget means ‘fail to remember or recall, lose the memory of, neglect stop thinking about, put out of one’s mind.’ This is clearly describing going from ‘knowing’ to ‘ignorance’. In many places this is explicitly stated to have happened like that.
For example, in chapter 15:
“When he forgets that he is eternally a servant of Lord Krsna, the individual soul enters Maya’s prison. Originally all souls are Vaisnavas.”

“When Krishna wills to form a thing, a concomitant nature goes hand in hand with the formation of the thing, and that nature is its eternal characteristic. When that thing is contaminated due to unforeseen events, or is perverted by coming in contact with another thing, then its nature is also perverted or changed… This changed or perverted nature is not inborn or innate in the thing, but causal or accidental… As for example, water is a thing, liquidity is its property. When it happens to be ice, solidity or rigidity becomes its causal or accidental property and is current with the real nature. In fact, causation or accident is not eternal but temporary cause, and vanishes with the disappearance of its cause. But nature that springs up with the formation of a thing is eternal and remains latent though it is perverted or changed. That in course of time or due to favourable circumstances, the real nature of a thing assumes its original character, admits of no doubt.” (Jaiva-dharma, ch 1)

Comment: the jiva retains its original nature, even if covered by matter, as Saunaka rsi states in Visnudharma 4.55-57
“Just as the luster of a gem is not created by the washing off of the dirt, so the knowledge of the soul is not created by the removal of faults. Just as water is not created by the digging of a well, only what is already existent is brought to manifestation,— for how can there be the origination of what is non-existent,—so the attributes of knowledge and the rest are manifested, and not created, through the destruction of the evil qualities, for they belong to the soul eternally.”

The jiva is eternal and ever-existing and his function (dharma) in the form of love for Sri Krishna is also eternal. Subsequent to his enthrallment in this material world those functions that are incidental to material time, viz., the creation, formation, fall etc. have been attributed to the jiva.. (Jaiva-dharma, ch 2 )

“The jiva may possess one of two states. He may be either in the conditioned state or in the pure spiritual state. In his unconditioned state the jiva is uneclipsed cognitive substance. In that state the jiva has no relationship with nonsentience. Even in his unalloyed spiritual state the jiva is infinitesimal, he is liable to undergo change of condition. The Entity of Krishna is plenary Cognition. He is naturally free from the possibility of any change in His condition. He is substantively Great, Perfect, Pure and Eternal. The jiva is substantively infinitesimal, part of the Whole, liable to contamination and not ultimate. But in respect of his spiritual function the jiva is great, undivided, whole, pure and eternal. As long as the jiva retains his pure spiritual condition he exhibits his spiritual function in his uneclipsed form. When the jiva is contaminated by relationship with the eclipsing potency [maya] only then, by reason of the perversion of his proper function, he is not fully pure and feels helpless and afflicted with mundane pleasure and pain. The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jiva’s loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krishna.” (Jaiva-dharma, ch 2)

“So long as the jiva continues pure, he cherishes his function as his own. His egoism then identifies itself with his servitorship of Krishna. His pure egotism, however, suffers a contraction and assumes various forms when he is defiled by relationship with maya.” (Jaiva-dharma, ch2)

Servitorship to Krishna is jiva’s eternal religion. When jiva forgets this truth, he is enslaved by maya; from that moment on jiva turns away from Krishna-he rejects Him. From the time jiva comes into this material world he has already rejected Krishna.. The instant jiva rejects Krishna and embraces material existence, his eternal religion becomes perverted.

In truth, maya is merely a transformation and a reflected image of the Supreme Lord’s sakti-she is not a separate or independent sakti. Maya is the cause of jiva’s imprisonment and freedom. When jiva rejects Krishna, maya ensnares him in material existence and punishes him. When jiva devotes himself to serving Krishna, maya manifests her sattva-guna (mode of goodness) and rewards him with knowledge about Krishna.

Out of the flames fall innumerable little sparks; similarly from the rays of the transcendental sun, Lord Hari, emanate millions of minute particles of light, the infinitesimal spirit soul-jiva. Jiva is nondifferent from the Supreme Lord Hari and yet simultaneously he is eternally distinct from the Lord. The eternal difference between the Supreme Lord and jiva is that the Lord is always the master and controller of maya-sakti, whereas jiva, even in his liberated state, is by his very nature vulnerable to come under maya’s survey.

Vrajanatha: So kindly tell me more about jiva’s eternal nature.
Babaji: Jiva is an infinitesimal spiritual entity endowed with the merit of knowledge (jnana); possesses the identity of “I”; is an enjoyer; is a counsellor and an intelligent conscious being. Jiva is the proprietor of an eternal identity which is extremely esoteric and subtle. The human body is made complete by the inclusion of its eyes, ears, nose etc.; similarly jiva’s spiritual body is embellished with perfect symmetrical features, and this is his eternal form. When jiva becomes conditioned, two false identities (upadhi) enshroud his eternal, spiritual form. The first shroud is made up of his subtle, mental frame, the second is his gross physical body.
The upadhi of subtle body is indispensible to the jiva which he acquires from the moment of maya’s captivity and remains with him till he becomes liberated (mukta).

Comment Jiva is the proprietor of an eternal identity….(which is just like) the human body is made complete by the inclusion of its eyes, ears, nose etc.; similarly jiva’s spiritual body is embellished with perfect symmetrical features, and this is his eternal form.

Vrajanatha: What is the difference between jiva’s eternal form (nitya-sarira) and subtle body (linga-sarira)?
Babaji: The eternal form is fully spiritual, faultless and jiva’s real identity, which is, his true self or I. The subtle body is acquired by jiva at the time of material contact. It consists of three corrupt transformations of spiritual energy-mind, intelligence and false ego (mana, buddhi, ahankara).

The identity of jiva’s eternal form (nitya-svarupa) which is related to the transcendental sun, Krishna, as His integral part and parcel, is eternal-when jiva is liberated (mukta) he regains his original, eternal identity. As long as the eternal identity remains under the wraps of linga-sarira, jiva’s identification with this material world will be more pronounced, concomitantly his spiritual identity will be nonassertive.

Vrajanatha: Respected master, I have understood that jiva’s eternal form is spiritual and the spiritual limbs and features of jiva are sublime and beautiful. In his conditioned state, his subtle material body veils this beautiful form and the gross material covering completely corrupts and perverts his original identity. I wonder if jiva in his emancipated condition (mukta-avastha) is fully flawless?
Babaji: The atomic part and parcel of God, jiva’s spiritual form, is certainly faultless but incomplete, due to his extremely diminutive size and vulnerability. The only visible weakness in this faultless condition is that in a close encounter with maya-sakti (illusory potency) his spiritual form is capable of becoming eclipsed and concealed. This is how Srimad-Bhagavatam describes it:

ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksha vimukta-maninas
tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah
aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah
patanty adho ‘nadrita-yushmad-anghrayah
(Bhag. 10.2.32)

“O lotus-eyed one, those who think they are liberated in this life but do not render devotional service to You have impure intelligence. Although they accept severe austerities and penances and rise to the spiritual position to impersonal Brahman realization, they fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet.”

Thus we see that however elevated a position a liberated soul may attain, his incomplete constitution stays permanently with him-this is the definition of jiva-tattva. Thus the Vedas iterate that bhagavan is the Lord of maya and jiva is in all situations susceptible to maya’s subjugation.

Comment: always tatastha “in all situations susceptible to maya’s subjugation.”

One who is falsely identifying with the body and is staking claims in relation to the body is the jiva, who, due to this false identification, has been divested of his true spiritual identity.

The liberated jiva transcends the confines of his gross and subtle material bodies and acquires a spiritual form luminescent with transcendental lustre-this is his original, supramundane identity. He is a perfected being and resides in the spiritual world relishing every moment of sublime activities and divine bliss.

Jiva’s imprisonment commenced due to his offenses (aparadha). The original offense is jiva’s forgetfulness of his position as the eternal servant of Krishna.

“In his true nature the jiva is the devoted servant of Krishna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs due to their seeking after their own pleasure, turned away from Krishna and as such, became punishable.” (Jaiva-dharma, p. 240)

Conclusion: Brahman-tatastha-fall-vada is wrong
All the souls coming from Brahman are Brahma-vadis, who had become liberated, but now fall down due to loneliness, emptiness.
They don’t get the darsana of the Lord at the border of matter and spirit, while falling down.
They get that
bahunam janmanam ante
jnanavan mam prapadyate
vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma su-durlabhah
After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.
By getting the mercy of guru and Krishna.

Chant and dance
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
in Sri Krishna Caitanya’s sankirtana movement, and be back in the rasa-lila.