Live From Sri Mayapur Candrodaya Mandir!
Date: February 16th, 2012
Topic: Krishna is the Source of all Incarnations
Verse: SB 1.3.44
Speaker: HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu
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tatra kirtayato vipra viprarser bhuri-tejasah aham cadhyagamam tatra nivistas tad-anugrahat so ‘ham vah sravayisyami yathadhitam yatha-mati
TRANSLATION: O learned brahmanas, when Sukadeva Gosvami recited Bhagavatam there [in the presence of Emperor Pariksit], I heard him with rapt attention, and thus, by his mercy, I learned the Bhagavatam from that great and powerful sage. Now I shall try to make you hear the very same thing as I learned it from him and as I have realized it.
PURPORT: One can certainly see directly the presence of Lord Sri Krsna in the pages of Bhagavatam if one has heard it from a self-realized great soul like Sukadeva Gosvami. One cannot, however, learn Bhagavatam from a bogus hired reciter whose aim of life is to earn some money out of such recitation and employ the earning in sex indulgence. No one can learn Srimad-Bhagavatam who is associated with persons engaged in sex life. That is the secret of learning Bhagavatam Nor can one learn Bhagavatam from one who interprets the text by his mundane scholarship. One has to learn Bhagavatam from the representative of Sukadeva Gosvami, and no one else, if one at all wants to see Lord Sri Krsna in the pages. That is the process, and there is no alternative. Suta Gosvami is a bona fide representative of Sukadeva Gosvami because he wants to present the message which he received from the great learned brahmana. Sukadeva Gosvami presented Bhagavatam as he heard it from his great father, and so also Suta Gosvami is presenting Bhagavatam as he had heard it from Sukadeva Gosvami. Simple hearing is not all; one must realize the text with proper attention. The word nivista means that Suta Gosvami drank the juice of Bhagavatam through his ears. That is the real process of receiving Bhagavatam. One should hear with rapt attention from the real person, and then he can at once realize the presence of Lord Krsna in every page. The secret of knowing Bhagavatam is mentioned here. No one can give rapt attention who is not pure in mind. No one can be pure in mind who is not pure in action. No one can be pure in action who is not pure in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating. But somehow or other if someone hears with rapt attention from the right person, at the very beginning one can assuredly see Lord Sri Krsna in person in the pages of Bhagavatam. [End of Srila Prabhupada’s purport to SB 1.3.44]
Hg Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: So in this purport Prabhupada is giving us very, very valuable instructions about Srimad-Bhagavatam. I first read this when I had moved into the temple. In those days just the first Bhagavatam was only available in the temple – the books that Prabhupada had himself brought – Bhagavatam. So I read it in those original ones. At that time I was taking some university courses. I was still in graduate school doing religious studies. I actually wrote a paper basically on this purport.
It is very, very interesting. Here is Bhagavatam – speaker and a hearer. Although one thing you should notice. Here Prabhupada is talking about an aural recitation. Suta is talking to the sages in Naimisaranya Forest. Sukadev Goswami was talking to Maharaja Pariksit. The sages gathered there. Presumably nobody had any books. No one was taking any notes or had their iphone recording. You know they were all listening. It was all talking and listening but you notice how Prabhupada talks about, “One can see directly the presence of Lord Sri Krishna in the pages of Bhagavatam.” Now certainly there is a book – the pages of Bhagavatam.
It is interesting how Prabhupada suddenly makes the switch and you realise that he is talking about this book that we are holding in our hands. Prabhupada is the speaker and we are the hearers. What this purport gives is the conditions under which Bhagavatam can actually take place. It has to be enacted. When I read this I was reminded of something that I had, (cell phones on.) I was reminded of something that I had just learnt in a course which is analogous to this. There was a professor of linguistics named J. L Austin who was famous for some linguistic analysis. I hear he was talking about the function of language – does all kinds of things. He was talking about something that he called performative utterances – awkward stupid name. He said so himself.
This is analogous to the Bhagavatam because a performative utterance is something like this: I know pronounce you man and wife; or I now sentence you to ten years in jail. Or, I bid ten thousand dollars. It is not just making a statement. It does something. For example let’s take – I sentence you to ten years in jail. If I walk up to somebody in the street and say, “I sentence you to ten years in jail.” What happens? Nothing. What is going on? It is just words. But if the speaker is authorised – that is to say a judge in the court of the state dually appointed and the hearer is authorised – somebody who has been convicted of a crime by due process of law and the judge says it then he goes to jail for ten years. He said it. There is potency. So it would be nice if the speaker is authorised, the hearer is authorised then something happens.
This is similar to Bhagavatam. Bhagavatam is not just mundane literature. This text is read in universities. It is read by scholars. It is read by students. They study it very carefully. They know Sanskrit better than most of us. But Bhagavatam does not happen! It does not take place. So we have also been meeting here with ILS – Iskcon Leadership Sanga. Our interest is what is Iskcon and what is it for.
Here’s one thing. Iskcon is what Prabhupada had to do to make Bhagavatam happen. It wasn’t enough that he brought the books. He also had to create the authorised hearers. Then with Prabhupada as the authorised speaker and people in Iskcon as the authorised hearers then Bhagavatam can happen. It can take place.
I want you to notice in this purport what does it need for Bhagavatam to happen. He says it several times. One can certainly see directly the presence of Lord Sri Krishna in the pages of Bhagavatam.” And again a little later on, “If one at all wants to see Lord Sri Krishna in the pages …” and again, “He can at once realise the presence of Lord Krishna in every page.” And again, “See Lord Krishna in person in the pages of Bhagavatam.” There are four repetitions in a very short paragraph. Seeing Krishna in the pages. Why does that happen? Well it is simple. Krishna and Krishna’s name are the same, ‘bhinnatvan nama-naminoh [Cc Madhya 17.133] that applies to the Hare Krishna mantra where Krishna and Krishna’s name are the same and the same principle applies to Bhagavatam, Krishna and Krishna’s narration are the same.
You can take a name of Krishna. It is very short. You can make the names longer and longer. Yamuna-tira-vana-cari – that is a name of Krishna. It is a description of Krishna but it is a name – He who wanders in the bushes or the groves on the bank of the Yamuna. Somebody could be named Yamuna-tira-vana-cari Dasa. You could do that. You could make even longer names in Sanskrit. It is said that the Bhagavatam is one big name of Krishna. Krishna and Krishna’s name are the same because it is spiritual literature. So if we actually understand the meaning then we will see Krishna directly.
One time in the Philadelphia temple I was giving the Sunday feast lecture and some graduate students from the university had come with the professor. They knew also that I had been an academic student of religion and they heard me narrating some of the stories from our literature. Then some of them met with me up in the office and they said to me, “You don’t take this literally, do you?” Of course we don’t take this literally here because look at what we say about God. He has two hands, He plays a flute, He wears a peacock feather – very concrete specific.
Thomas Aquinas said, “The more abstract words are the more properly they refer to God.” Can you imagine? That is how you get close to being a Mayavadi. We don’t have abstract. We have flute – not a trombone, a flute. [Laughter] Peacock feather – not a pheasant feather. We have very, very concrete description. Of course we don’t mean it literally. It must be symbolic or something like that. So I had to explain to him. I said: Yes I take it literally but we may not know what the literal meaning is because the real meaning – where does language comes from? Language comes from Krishna. Everything comes from Krishna. So language comes from Krishna. So the real meaning of the language is what they mean in relationship to Krishna. That is the literal.
If Krishna is blue He is dark blue – yes I have seen dark blue so I can use the word. But His dark blue is a transcendental dark blue. What is that? I only see the blue around here but the original blue of what you have down here is some type of cheap slop copy… so that is the literal meaning of words when they apply to Krishna. We cannot perceive the literal meaning right now because,
ata sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih (Padma Purana) [Brs. 1.2.234] Our senses which are now contaminated cannot perceive Krishna’s name – namadi – nam, qualities etc. We cannot. So the Mayavadi philosophers everybody would agree that you can’t see. You go with your material senses into transcendence and you can’t see. You draw a blank. Then you think your ignorance is reality. Yes there is nothing there. I can see nothing. So then I think there is nothing there. But there is another verse when those senses sevonmukhe hi, when those sense are dedicated in service to Krishna then they become enabled. We are spiritually disabled and now we become enabled.
In order for Bhagavatam to happen we have to become enabled to be able to hear. So here Prabhupada is giving how it is. Well first of all, the speaker has to be proper. But Prabhupada is concerned with talking about the hearers because the authorised speaker is one who has been a proper hearer before. So he is concerned like that. So first of all one can see directly Krishna in the pages of Bhagavatam from a self realised soul. You cannot learn Bhagavatam from the bogus hired reciters. These are the professional reciters of Srimad-Bhagavatam. In the west profession means it is well done but for Prabhupada it means they do it for the money only. And they are well done. I have seen them. I sat around and listened to these people. The audience is in tears because they are really good actors – these speakers. They know how to do it. And they tell a story but they take the money and they use it for sex indulgence. Maybe they are just mundane householders or something. That is their idea. But they are talented. They are really talented.
I remember one of our very first festivals here they got a professional kirtan group to come because they really know how to play the drums and they sing very well. They put them on a stage and Prabhupada was so upset. He would rather have our people with our thump, thump thump drum playing and what else and everybody else not being able to carry a tune, not knowing so many melodies. He would rather have us than these experts because they were professionals. So that is one thing. And no one can learn Bhagavatam from a person engaged in sex life. Prabhupada would explain this later on – how this has to happen.
Then Prabhupada uses another word that shows up several times in the purport
– the secret. It is confidential. Everybody would not be able to appreciate it. This is important because we should understand what Iskcon is for. It is to make us able or to give us the keys to the secret, to empower us to be able to hear Bhagavatam properly. It says here that one has to learn Bhagavatam from the representative of Sukadev Goswami. That is someone who is a proper hearer. Suta is the representative. He heard it properly and now he tells how he heard it with rapt attention. He was able to give it that focus. If one at all wants to see Lord Krishna in the pages that is the process. That is the process! And there is no alternative.
So he says they speak it as they had heard it and then he says simple hearing is not all. One must realise the text with proper attention. This is in the text here – this phrase – yathadhitam yatha-mati. Prabhupada in the word for- as I have realised – adhitam – as I have made it an object of my meditation. Yatha-mati- as I have concentrated on it. Prabhupada uses the term realised knowledge to mean experienced. That is also the way he translates vijnana. Jnana means book knowledge but vijnana knowledge is direct perception, realised knowledge. One must realise the text with proper attention.
Then he takes the word nivistas. It means concentrated on being really there
– present. It is like when we chant japa, you have to be present, fully there and not your mind going anyway else and concentrating. So the same way with Bhagavatam, hearing in a class or taking a book and reading it. The word nivistas – It says he drank the juice of Bhagavatam through his ears like you are super thirsty and you are really eager to get some juice, like that – the eagerness for taste. That is the real process of receiving Bhagavatam. See how he emphasises it. The REAL process of RECEIVING Bhagavatam. Now it is a gift. We have to take it. We have to receive it the right way.
One should hear with rapt attention from the real person and then he can at once realise the presence of Lord Krishna in every page. The secret of knowing Bhagavatam is mentioned here. So how do we get that rapt attention? How are we able to get that degree of attention? This is the age of inattention – attention deficit disorder. This is the age of distraction. The English poet TS Elliot in one of his famous poems – very religious poet when he got older, he described the modern world as, this is his line – distracted from distraction by distraction. So the is the motto that should be on every building – distracted from distraction by distraction. We are distracted so it is hard for us. This is hard for us. It is the age for distraction. We have got so many devices to distract us. The big thing the mortality rate – people driving their cars with their cell phones or iphones on, texting. So, distracted from distraction by distraction.
So this is hard for us. We are in the age of inattention. So how to give rapt attention? So he says no one can give rapt attention who is not pure in mind. That is the first thing. That actually if you really want to pay attention the mind has to be in the mode of goodness. In the mode of ignorance you don’t know what is happening – whatever you see, you see it wrong. In the mode of passion you are narrowly focused on the objects of sense gratification and you can go from here to here to here. But in the mode of goodness you are detached and alert. We don’t see the mode of goodness anymore. People should be cultivating the mode of goodness. No one knows what it is.
Prabhupada said the standard of advancement these days is the mode of passion – narrowly fixed, narrowly excited and consciousness fixed on the objects of desire. That is the standard of advancement, the mode of passion. Economic development. What do they get together and talk about – economic development. He said formerly the standard of advancement was the mode of goodness – just that much. It is not even transcendental but it is just getting to where you can begin to come transcendental. We are not. And of course all of the intoxicants and everything else! In the mode of passion leads to misery and then to take care of the misery alcohol and drugs and whatever else to deal with it and it is going in that direction.
It is hard to hear Bhagavatam. You have to get cured of so many things. No one can give rapt attention who is not pure in mind. This is the fact of life. Purity of mind has to be there. No one can be pure in mind if one is not pure in action. So our behaviour has to be pure, our activities have to be pure. One who is pure in action, he says pure in eating, sleeping, fearing and mating. Fearing is defending. In other words even the basic animal biological of life we have to learn how to do in a pure way. We have to eat in a pure way. We have to sleep in a pure way. We have to mate in a pure way. We can mate. The species can go on but Prabhupada is has given instructions about how that is to be done. And defend in a pure way. In other words that is our Hare Krishna movement really. The regulative principles of Krishna consciousness, the culture of Krishna consciousness is to make us able to hear Bhagavatam. So when Prabhupada brought those books, he brought the method of training people. That is why he had to make the society so that Bhagavatam could actually take place.
Then he assures us at the end: One can see Lord Krishna in person in the pages of Bhagavatam. This is the last verse in the chapter. In the next verse, chapter four text one Prabhupada somewhat continues the purport. He brings again this idea of realisation. In the next verse: On hearing Suta Gosvami speak thus, Saunaka Muni, who was the elderly, learned leader of all the rsis engaged in that prolonged sacrificial ceremony, congratulated Suta Gosvami by addressing him as follows. [SB 1.4.1] That is the next verse.
Prabhupada says in his purport: … he stood up to congratulate Sri Suta Gosvami when he expressed his desire to present Srimad-Bhagavatam exactly as he heard it from Sukadeva Gosvami and also realized it personally. [An excerpt from the purport to SB 1.4.1] By the way this idea that you can present that there is a parampara and the message is coming down to the generations exactly – not a single mundane scholar ever believes that is even possible. Everyone interprets everything – they really believe this. But here Prabhupada is saying here’s how it happens if you become a proper hearer you can actually hear it and you can present it as you have heard it exactly.
There are so many times Prabhupada says about our parampara it hasn’t been changed. And you say that in an academic circle, “Oh. These people are so naive.” But they are the ones that are idiots actually because here is the way. Have you ever tried it? No. Universities were originally for clergymen. Students were supposed to be brahmacaris. This was the tradition even in Europe at one time. What has happened to the student class? This type of tradition was also there at one time but we have made ‘advancement’ now. This is how it happens – this hearing – exactly as he heard it from Sukadev Goswami and also realised it personally. Because you would say a tape recorder will do that job just as exactly. But there is something else – this idea of realised knowledge.
Prabhupada gives this very interesting discussion of this. “Personal realisation does not mean that one should out of vanity attempt to show one’s own learning by trying to surpass the previous acarya.” So personal realisation means that there is something to it that is your own. It is actually related to you that you can say actually originates from you – but it doesn’t mean this business – that I am going to find something new. This is my original contribution.
In academics when you write a doctoral dissertation you have to show how you are making an original contribution. In principle there is just one truth. At least we used to think like that – there is one truth. But then everybody has to say something new. If you just agree with somebody else completely then you don’t have a career. You have to come up with some novel thing. But this is not the idea that I am going to find something, demonstrate m cleverness by coming up with something that no previous acarya has ever seen before. This is my contribution. He must have full confidence in the previous acaryas and at the same time he must realise the subject matter so nicely that he can present that matter for the particular circumstances in this suitable manner. In other words you got it, you have made it your own, you come back out with it again. It will be infected with your own personal feelings or something like that.
Look at Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura’s way of speaking and just look at Srila Prabhupada’s way of speaking. I have a transcript of Bhaktisiddhanta, notes of his lectures, his writings. It is really hard to read with this incredible vocabulary. I sat down and went through it again and again and again and finally understood what he was saying and realised I had already known it. Prabhupada had told us already. What a difference in style! And i could see why Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura talked that way
– because you really had to pay attention in order to get what he was saying. So you could see the difference in manner and vocabulary and way of speaking and yet the same thing is being transmitted exactly – precisely.
So that is an example of realised knowledge. “He must have full confidence in the previous acarya and at the same time he must realise the subject matters so nicely that he can present the matter in the particular circumstances in a suitable manner. The original purpose of the text must be maintained. A joke in academics – there is no original purpose. The original purpose of the text must be maintained. No obscure meaning should be screwed out of it, yet it should be presented in an interesting manner for the understanding of the audience.”
Somehow or the other you can connect with people. They can understand you. They can see what is happening and it grabs their attention. “This is called realization.” It is the same but it is somehow suitable to the time, place and circumstance, preserving the integrity. How to do that? That requires realization. That is how Prabhupada carries on and talks about realised knowledge.
We should appreciate the information Prabhupada has given us. This is the process. Here as Prabhupada has put it very simply to take the medicine you have to follow the directions on the bottle. Then it will work. That is how you take it – according to the directions that are given on the bottle. And here are the directions how to do this. We are doing it.
When scholars take this same work and they take it out of the context into their own context it is not the Bhagavatam anymore. It is just like when Ravana took Sita away from Ramacandra what happened? Did he get Sita? Maya Sita. This is what happens to Bhagavatam. They miss it. So we should have full confidence in Srimad-Bhagavatam. Those people who have their other take on it – mundane scholars and other people, they don’t know how. They have got Maya Bhagavatam. Many people who are going to college and hearing their take on it, some people get really confused about it. This is the process. And there is no alternative. We can say to them this is our process for realising the holy name, for having direct experience, paresanubhava – direct experience of the Supreme. This is how we do it. If you want to see God face to face you can. This is what you have to do. If you don’t want to do it – okay! That is your choice but don’t say that we aren’t doing it or we haven’t realised it or we haven’t understood it. This is the process.
We should have full confidence. God is gone into eclipse. We are going to bring him back. But the God that is gone into eclipse is a little partial, like a little Brahman realisation, a little Supersoul realisation. Brahman , Paramatma and Bhagavan – this is Bhagavatam – as complete as it comes in the material world. There are more pages to the Bhagavatam in the heavenly planets. That is true. For here this is the complete edition and we can completely realise it. Any questions or comments? We have a little time?
Suresvara Prabhu: Thank you for the great class. Could you speak a little Prabhu that on the one hand we are enjoying yukta vairagya? We should be able to use everything in Krishna’s service and the more pure we are the more we can do that but it is such a challenge to use all these modern products like iphones and computers and still be able to give rapt attention. We are coming from that distracted bag. You described the process. Prabhupada described the process but it has been such a challenge to do that short of going into the forest. So please elaborate. HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: Trial and error. Suresvara Prabhu: The Absolute Truth spoken concisely is true eloquence. HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: That is the only answer I have. Suresvara Prabhu: Thank you. HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: Okay. Prabhu: You referred to Sita who is not the actual Sita and the Bhagavatam when it is taken out and it becomes distorted. So I would like you to elaborate on – I was just thinking now immediately that it becomes very popular to chant the maha-mantra in these Kirtan fest and all these gatherings. Is that not similar? HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: Yes. Yes, it is exactly the same thing. Prabhupada has quoted that milk touched by the lips of a serpent has a poisonous effect. The poisonous effect will be that you would then think that you can chant the Hare Krishna mantra and engage in sense gratification. You have done something spiritual – there is doesn’t happen. For japa and sankirtan, all these things this is what is required.
Prabhupada had the power. When he came to America he was so radical that at the mantra rock dance he had Allen Ginsberg lead the chanting. There is a conversation with Ginsberg in Ohio wherein Ginsbeg says, “Swami is very concerned.” Prabhupada was concerned with that. He was at that time the most openly gay American celebrity that was and his boyfriend was on the stage and Allen Ginsberg was leading the chanting. Even though he led the chanting Prabhupada was there and Prabhupada authorised it. That was a very special circumstance I would not imitate this. That other kind of chanting is going around and people are attracted to it but we should really try to ourselves the same standard. Prabhupada did not care so much that we had musical talent. It is good to do these things. But the first thing is one’s own purity.
You listen to Prabhupada’s chanting. It is the voice of a seventy five year old man. It is not smooth all the time but it is potent because of his purity. Purity is the force. He summed up Iskcon once. Prabhu: Thank you Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu. You have greatly enhanced our understanding of this verse and the whole principle of Bhagavatam. Of course Bhagavatam is a dynamic revelation. It is always ever expanding. It says also that with each acarya, they have added their own realisation making the fruit even sweeter – generation after generation. So is that still possible after Srila Prabhupada? He has brought down the essence of all these perfect realisations through his books. Prabhupada’s books are perfect and complete. Everything is there. Will it continue beyond Srila Prabhupada? HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: If it doesn’t Prabhupada would have failed. Prabhu: Okay. Thank you. HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: I mean Prabhupada is the founder acarya. He will always be the founder acarya. In that sense he is in a permanent supreme position. I was there in the presence of Prabhupada where he said – actually there was an academic guy that came to see Prabhupada. Prabhupada sometimes right of the back will give people instructions – just like Bhaktisiddhanta gave instructions right away. He said to this young professor or graduate student, “You see we have these books. You study these books and then you write books about these books.” I was in the audience. I took that for me too and for all of us that – you write books about these books. He always wanted us to do the same thing. We would not surpass him in any way but also as we have realised it we also have an audience to preach to, we have to relate to. It should go on. Otherwise he would have failed. Prabhu: Hare Krishna. My question is, are we fundamentalists? In Genesis we read that the world was made in seven days, Adam and Eve etc. Fundamentalists say that these stories are important and they should be taken literally but you also talked about realised knowledge. Along with a little more enlightenment we will understand that – the symbolic meaning behind the story which is really what is important. So Srila Prabhupada gave us the Krishna book with stories about Krishna. Without going much further than that going into the esoteric. Bhaktivinode Thakura gave us some symbolic meaning behind the demons for example. Isn’t is that a higher consciousness to give value to the meaning and to the symbolic interpretation. HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: Are you saying the real thing is not there? Prabhu: Well I would like to know are we fundamentalists. What makes us different? HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: You would have to tell me what a fundamentalist is. Is it a term of abuse? I mean it is true I had to say when I started reading Bhagavatam I wrote Prabhupada a letter that I was going to be writing a doctoral dissertation. He told me to do it and he suggested that I defeat Darwin. And I went into a state of shock. [Laughter] Because part of my growing up was in Oklahoma in Texas and I knew these people who did not believe in Darwin and I thought am I supposed to become like them – like a great big neon Jesus says sign? That was my idea of fundamentalists. Here Prabhupada was saying defeat Darwin. Then I thought about it and I thought if everything comes from Krishna then Darwin is wrong. Then I though everyone who follows that is wrong. I just never thought how we are going to defeat him. Of course he has to be wrong.
Then I happened to meet Sadaputa. He was out on sankirtan from New Vrindavan or something. He had just gotten a PHD in Mathematics and nobody knew what to do with him! {Laughter] They made him the treasure because presumably he could count. [Laughter] PHD in Mathematics! But the real talent of a treasurer is to say, “No. Where are you receipts?” He didn’t have that talent. So they didn’t know what to do with him. So he came and I had just met him and I showed him this letter I got from Prabhupada. How can you defeat Darwin? Sadaputa said to me, “Yes. Darwin is wrong. I figured that out before I ever met devotees.” He said, “Actually most mathematicians know that Darwin is wrong. They just don’t say anything because it upsets the biologist so much.” [Laughter] Then he started to give me arguments later that were published and everything about this. So that helped my faith.
So in some ways we may to some people resemble fundamentalists. Certainly they called Prabhupada a fundamentalist. We have to accept the meaning as it is given. It seems like that. But you have to understand that it is about realised knowledge. And we have our acaryas. Sometimes they tell us what the different meaning is.
Even Christians – at least Protestant fundamentalist believe God created the world in seven earth days. But Saint Augustine said these are not human days because that hadn’t even been started yet. So a long time ago people had some type of understanding that is different from now. Biblical literalism! So to me my understanding is that I accept the literal meaning. What is the literal meaning of words? The words refer properly in their true meaning to God. Even you can understand, you can say God is love. Do we really know what love is? You know something like love, some dim little glimmer of love. You want to know what love really means. That is love. That is the literal meaning – what God does. That is the literal meaning and down here we have the symbolic allegorical or derived meaning. So this will educate us in knowledge.
So you have to take what Prabhupada said together with the process and use the process. Then I don’t think there are any problems. People will call you a fundamentalist. That is true. You have to wear the badge properly. Prabhu: There was a lot of reference in the purport to realisation. We all have experience that sometimes we realise something and the next we totally forget what we thought we realised. And Prabhupada also uses the word assimilation. So is there a difference between realisation and assimilation
– meaning one you have got it and one it is kind of coming and going. The mode of passion comes and you totally forget it? HG Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu: You can take it in different ways I suppose. I think realisation goes up and down not because it is not realisation but simply because it is the beginning of realisation. People have ups and downs in their spiritual lives but after nista you get more and more intense and finally you apparently here but living in the spiritual world. It is direct experience. By realised knowledge it means it is experienced knowledge. It is scientific because of that. It is assimilated because here’s something that I found very interesting. When we know something in the material world it is the self knowing the not self. The self is the knower. The self is the seer and the scene is matter – either gross or subtle matter. When it comes to Krishna, Krishna is also self. He is atma. He is the self of the self. He is Paramatma. Knowing Krishna is something like knowing yourself. In the material world what can we know about ourselves for sure? That I exist. This is Deckard’s point – I think therefore I am. I can doubt everything that I can but i cannot doubt my own existence as a conscious being. Because who would be doubting? Prabhupada appreciated that when he was given a survey of western philosophers. Then when we come to get some realisation of Krishna we certainly discover that we cannot doubt Krishna’s existence.
This happened to me. One day I realised that I am absolutely convinced of the existence of Krishna – Totally convinced of the existence of Krishna. The first thing I thought is what right do I have to be so convinced. There are logical proofs for the existence of God we know but if you don’t like inductive argument all you have to do is deride one of the premises. What a valid deductive argument is that it gives you what you have to do to deny it. Here is a deductive argument: All men are mortal. Socrates is a man therefore Socrates is mortal. This is a text book example. So here I am. I am Socrates and I don’t like it. I don’t like that conclusion that I am mortal. So I can say, “How do you know that I am a man?” or “How do you know all men are mortal? Maybe i am different.” That is the problem with deductive arguments.
When I became really just convinced, I am absolutely 100% that Krishna is there. How do I have the right to it? If somehow or the other I made a little advancement in Krishna consciousness, I have had a little experience that the outer edge of the Supersoul is something. And once that happens I can no longer doubt the existence of the Lord than I can doubt my own existence. That is because He is also atma. We are part and parcel of Him. There is an overlap of that area. So there is some certitude that that comes from spiritual advancement. All of Krishna is in our hearts. That expands. It gradually opens up – dadami buddhi-yogam tam [Bg 10.10] From that Lord in the heart he then presents to unveil Himself to us and at that point there is no doubt.
Once you have this you can also see in other religious traditions people have partial realisations. Prabhupada never said that they are wrong but it is partial. There is a piece of it here and a piece of it there. As far as I know in my experience the things that I have seen has been the most complete account is Srimad-Bhagavatam. Still no one has come up with anything better yet. That is what i am going on. I think we have to stop now. Thank you very much. Srila Prabhupada Ki! Jai! Srimad-Bhagavtam Ki! Jai! [Applause] [To receive Mayapurlive lectures by email, write to mayapurlive@pamho.net] Listen or download at http://www.mayapurtvarchives.com