William Mathew: In current times when the eligibility of a particular gender to act as Guru is being questioned, the need of the hour is not to question the roles of the gender, what is needed is to question who is a Guru and what makes him or her eligible to act as a spiritual master of others.
In this conversation recorded on Ramanavami in 2010, Sripada Aindra prabhu presents a deep and sastric understanding of the Guru Tattva in line of the disciplic succession from Lord Caitanya. Imbued with humility, knowledge and practical realization of philosophy, this conversation would surely make any sincere sadhaka be contemplative and introspective of the actual essence of the Guru Tattva.
Sripada Aindra Prabhu: The point is that whoever is advanced. You know, what is the use of having a male guru if the male is not above the platform of anartha-nivåtti platform even? Then he is not a guru. He is a guru abhasa. If it is Vaishnava äbhäs because he is not chanting suddha nama then he is guru abhasa.
All Vaishnava or Vaishnavais are gurus. There are äbhäs, just different degrees of empowerment depending on their particular status. If they are kaniñöha-adhikäré then they are not actually Vaishnavas, so they can not actually be gurus. They can be guru äbhäs. But if they are madhyama adhikärés chanting suddha nama then they have certain rights to act as gurus because they can give suddha nama, their disciples can hear suddha nama from their mouth.
The point is that advancement is required. Otherwise if there is meager advancement then how are you going to help? If your hands are tied then how are you going to help untie the hands of another baddha jiva?
Therefore the recommendation is that before one ventures to become guru or act as guru he should on uttama adhikäré platform. Atleast, from the stage of bhava onwards. Because from the stage of bhava one is considered to be practically above the influences’ of the three modes of material nature, situated on the spiritual platform. Therefore çrotréyaà brahma-niñöam. Srotréyaà means who is fixed on the spiritual platform. Should be a realized soul. If he is not realized or she is not realized then why, why the guru business? For business purposes? So that we can get a piece of the cake?
Devotee: Then it’s definitely not like Ämära äjïäya guru haya tära ei deça. One has to have the ability to deliver.
Sripada Aindra Prabhu: He has to. He has to be. He has to be empowered. Empowered means Krishna sakti. Kåñëa-çakti vinä nahi tära pravartana. If he is not a Vaishnva or Vaishnavi and that empowerment is lacking then maybe, you know some display, but show bottle display is not the real substance. Actual substance should be there. Then the thing is substantial. It has real effect otherwise those who are Vaishnava abhasa they can generate sraddha abhasa in the persons that they preach to. Because the whole idea of becoming or acting as guru, the whole idea is to disseminate, to act as a agent for the dissemination of Krishna’s kripa sakti.
So according to Bhakti Vinoda Thakur in his Caitanya Siksamrita, he says that Kripa can be disseminated on three levels:
As a sadhaka from the stage of ruci, meaning one is chanting suddha nama. This goes along with the statement of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati where he says that actually only the maha-bhagavat have the fitness to bestow the pure name which is identical with nami, Krishna himself. And it goes along with the understanding given by Jiva Goswami where he describes that there are three different types of maha-bhagavats.
So there is maha-bhagvat with both the feet in the spiritual world, extending his hand in the acharya svarup to pull the conditioned souls upto his platform. Pull him out of the material world to the spiritual world.
Then there is the maha-bhagavat who is a sadhana siddha. It means he has attained the stage of sadhya, bhava or prema and he is in the sadhaka deha. Because he has attained perfection, realization of his sthayi-bhava, he is considered to have one foot in the spiritual world and one foot in the material world. And there is the maha-bhagavat who has both the feet in the material world but he has his eyes in the spiritual world. That means that he already knows what will be his perfection, it is just that he hasn’t… in other words he is still a green mango but he can understand that he is a mango and in due course he will be ripened.
So that is like a sadhaka meaning a raganuga sadhaka who is practicing, contemplating his antaras cinta siddha deha, etc from the stage of ruci. From the state of ruci means he is still a madhyama adhikäré. Ofcourse, there is the statement in Bhakti Tattva Viveka by Bhaktivinoda Thakur that in the raga marga those who are from the stage of ruci, having ruci for raganuga sadhana practices, they are also considered to be on the lower stages of uttama adhikäré platform.
So, in any case, who is chanting suddha nama can bestow suddha nama. So who is chanting suddha nama is a pure devotee and according to Caitanya Siksamrita that sadhaka who is chanting suddha nama, he can generate pure devotional sraddha in the heart of any ordinary man. And on an other level, the bhavuka or the bhava bhakta can immediately generate ruci.
Just like if someone is speaking with bhava then those who are hearing, he can immediately create taste for hearing Krishna katha and there is the premika bhakta who can immediately bring pull someone up to his own level. So if someone is acting as guru on one level he may generate pure devotional sraddha if he is pure devotee, but if he is not a pure devotee yet because he is not chanting suddha nama yet then he is not going to do very much in the matter of creating pure devotional sraddha in anyone.
Likely what happens is, because of lack of his clarity he has a tendency to confuse the disciples and the disciples generally get a distorted image, get the wrong idea and it may take them a long time to actually come around to understanding what is actual pure devotional siddhanta, you know, as a basis.
If he has pure devotional sraddha even, that means he is a pure devotee in making so he can understand the siddhanata to a certain extent and he can share that on one level or another. But still he is not considered to be empowered because the pure name is only having included all of Krishna’s antaraìga-çakti. So without having the pure name where is the question of having Kåñëa-çakti vinä nahi tära pravartana? Where is the question of him having the power to propagate the sankirtan movement? He is not going to be able to propagate the sankirtan movement. He is not going to be able to generate further generations, so to speak of, or create further generations of pure devotees. Propagation means to disseminate something to someone. To inculcate pure devotional sakti into the hearts of people that come into his association.
To wrap the point up, it not a question what kind of body; external body the soul has, that does not qualify one as being guru or any of these things. What qualifies a person as being guru is whether of not that person is advanced in spiritual realization. If he is God realized or she is a God realized soul then certainly there is fitness of acting as guru of anyone. It is not a question of he or she or any of these things. These are all mundane considerations. But if we are thinking that only men can become gurus but then the next question is that are they actually acting guru? Are they actually Vaishnava? If they are not yet Vaishnava then what is the right to act as guru?
First become Vaishnava then act as Vaishnava guru. And you know there is Madhyama Vaishnava and there is Uttama Vaishnva. Kanishtha Vaishanvas are actually not Vaishnavas. They are vaishnava praya, they are like Vaishanva but not Vaishnava. So you can hardly expect to make easy advancement to the goal of life under the insufficient guidance of kanishtha adhikäris and madhyama adikaris who are not yet evolved to the suddha nama bhajan platform.
First chant suddha nama at the stage of ruci and then asakti, bhava, preama. They have certain rights to act as guru. Others have no right to act as guru in real sense. A kanishtha adhikäri, a Vaishnava in the making, certainly has more right to act as a guru than a mayavadi. If a mayavadi is chanting the holy name and there is a kanishtha bhakta chanting the semblance of nama, mayavadi is also chanting the semblance of holy name. One is chanting pratibimba namabhasa and the other is chanting chaya namabhasa. Who is chanting chaya namabhasa is certainly more qualified to act as guru then who is chanting pratibimba namabhasa. But it does not mean that he is qualified in the real way to act as guru. Who is chanting suddha nama is actually fit to bestow suddha nama to the disciple. And it does not matter who is chanting suddha nama. If a Vaishnavi is chanting suddha nama then she is far more qualified and advanced than a so-called Vaishnava bhakta praya who is not chanting suddha nama.
So it is a question of what level of empowerment based on what degree of realization and what degree of revelation has been achieved by a individual.
Does that make sense to you? It is not a question of legislation. They can legislate and rubber stamp guru all they want and still it does not guarantee that whoever they rubber stamp, whether it is a male or female, does not matter. If they rubber stamp someone who is unqualified then just by the rubber stamping does not make them qualified. And if they do not rubber stamp someone who is qualified that doesn’t make him less fit to act as guru.
The legislation business and the rubber stamping business is a erroneous approach from the get go. That is not standard sampradayic system. The real question is who is qualified. Atleast that is my observation on the topic. Ok?
Hare Krishna
Hare Krsna,
Being a Kanishta Adhikari vaisnava in kali Yuga is an amazing platform to attain. being kanishta-adhikari means to follow 4 regulative principles and chant at least 16 rounds a day. Thats the qualification of kanistha.In kali-yuga thats an amazing platform to maintain and we have seen many devotees not even able to maintain 4 regulative principles.I dont agree with Aindra prabhus point that a Kanistha-Adhikari is not a Vaisnava and therefore can not be Guru, that is not in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.I think he has underestimated the Kanistha-Adhikari as if it is an easy platform to attain but i dont agree. I think there are only a few devotees that actually attain the heights of kanistha-adhikari in Iskcon.Madhyama-Adhikari and Uttama-Adhikarai are out of sight for most devotees.
In Nectar of Instruction text 5 Srila Prabhupada writes that a Kanistha-Adhikari can also accept disciples under certain conditions which means that not only is a Kanishta-Adhikari a Vaisnava but also a Guru capable of accepting disciples.
In Srimad Bhagavatam 4.12.32 Srila Prabhupada writes thus;
“It is the duty of the siksa guru or diksa guru to instruct the disciple in the right way, and it depends on the disciple to execute the process. According to sastric injunctions , there is no difference between the siksa guru and diksa guru, and generally the siksa guru later on becomes the diksa guru.”
It depends on the disciple to execute the process that has been given by either the siksa or diksa gurus.Even if the diksa guru is of a lower status the disciple can always accept Srila Prabhupada’s Shiksa. But the onus is on the disciple to execute the process to advance. A disciple can be given all the best instruction and association in the world and still not follow the process.We have seen this situation carbon copied by devotees.And because in Iskcon we have the unique situation of Srila Prabhupada’s Shiksa eternally we all have that advantage whether or not the diksa gurus come up to the mark or not.We are all Srila Prabhupada’s Shiksa disciples and He is that eternal Shiksa Guru of Uttama-Adhikari status, but we have to come up to being good disciples and follow His disciplne.
I find Srila Prabhupadas explanation of the topic above to be extremely clear (see purport to verse 5 of, “The Nectar of Instruction”).
Srila Prabhupada says, “A neophyte Vaiñëava or a Vaiñëava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance. Therefore a disciple should be careful to accept an uttama-adhikärĂ© as a spiritual master.”
Srila Prabnupada explains that we can understand the inner level of ones chanting, by observing their behavior, which is a manifestation of their level of faith.
The neophyte stage is described as, “A person who is very faithfully engaged in the worship of the Deity in the temple, but who does not know how to behave toward devotees or people in general is called a präkĂĄta-bhakta, or kaniñöha-adhikäri.” Srila Prabhupada says this person’s faith is soft and pliable.
In contrast the madhyama adhikare has firm faith described by Srila Prabhupada , “Çraddhä means accepting the instructions of Bhagavad-gĂ©tä in their totality, especially the last instruction: sarva-dharmän parityajya mäm ekaà çaraĂ«aĂ vraja. “Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me.” Srila Prabhupada goes on to say, “A person whose conclusive knowledge of the çästras is not very strong but who has developed firm faith in chanting the Hare Kåñëa mahä-mantra and who is also undeterred in the execution of his prescribed devotional service should be considered a madhyama-adhikärĂ©.
The uttama adhikare is described, “When a person realizes himself to be an eternal servitor of Kåñëa, he loses interest in everything but Kåñëa’s service. Always thinking of Kåñëa, devising means by which to spread the holy name of Kåñëa, he understands that his only business is in spreading the Kåñëa consciousness movement all over the world. Such a person is to be recognized as an uttama-adhikäré”,and further, “ÇrĂ©la Bhaktivinoda Ă–häkura has given some practical hints to the effect that an uttama-adhikärĂ© Vaiñëava can be recognized by his ability to convert many fallen souls to Vaiñëavism.”
Prior to the reform of the mid 1980’s one might say the guru’s were, “rubber stamped”; but now the GBC simply gives the green light if a devotee determines a person is qualified to initiate them.
“The legislation business and the rubber stamping business is a erroneous approach from the get go. That is not standard sampradayic system. The real question is who is qualified.”
This is the kind of statement that should not be misunderstood that legislation and rubber stamping are of no value at all. Srila Pabhupada wanted the GBC body to manage ISKCON. And it is by far a no easy task because all you have to deal with is a great number of individuals who from day one and individual one the whole thing is based on voluntary willingness to cooperate. And mixed with false ego here and there, the whole thing is far from being that easy. But when false egos let go and the spiritual discipline has become voluntarily embraced by individuals, then cooperation in that spirit can be a fantastic factor to achieve wonderful things in the mission of Srila Prabhupada and the acharyas. (It is the order of Srila Prabhupada that we cooperate with each other.)
So the point is that ISKCON guru has to be approved by some authority. Do it the way you want, but is has to be there. Someone has to give the green light somewhere, sometime. That is required. And then we will consider that ISKCON is bound for a world-wide impact, so it is simple to understand that organization, intelligence and again discipline and enthusiasm, patience have to there for this objective to be achieved.
The opinions of one or few individuals are less important that intelligent well-thought strategic approaches with the purpose of achieving repeated, manageable success in the mission of Srila Prabhupada. Standard this, or standard that. With Lord Caitanya’s movement there are a lot of adjustments that are not standard that have to be implemented, just for the sake of making the process of KC practical. One cannot just keep comparing with past standards. Srila Prabhuapda was not tied up that way.
It is not the first time that these word of rubber stamping are circulating around… but it should not be an excuse to see as unworthy the process that has been set into place by the GBC body in regards to the guru approval.
I surely agree with Aindra Prabhu’s points of due qualification by dint of suddha nama. That is very nice, and that is the proof of qualification. But an organized system has to be there too in relationship with ISKCON gurus.
We owe a whole lot of our KC on the very basis that ISKCON is organized. May not be perfect, but there is something there and it works. We are very grateful.
The mood of service, rather than the false platform of self-centered enjoyment, brings one to the platform of para-prakriti devotional service, service for the pleasure of Sri Guru and Krishna. It is vital that we recall that, even though in male physical bodies, the great acharyas in our line like the Goswamis of Vrindaban, or more recently Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupad, and our beloved Srila Prabhupad, are all dedicated servitors to the Supreme Lord and His Radhika. They are all female by spiritual identity, servants in the line of the
manjaris of Sri Radhika. Their identity is not contaminated with male ego.
Lord Chaitanya enjoined that all who hear the message He has given can become guru by repeating it without change. The potency is there is the sound, sabda brahma. Those with good fortune will hear and be benefited. Transparent via medium. We ought not to create a totem pole or hierarchy or who might benefit the most by a stock-picking mentality. It makes one think that there is a contamination of desire for mukti, or desire to enjoy the position of one’s spiritual identity. In reality, one is not so conscious of one’s self in the spiritual world, but rather they are Krishna conscious…to the point of forgetting one’s self as being somehow separate from Krishna, ie that one is an enjoyer? Krishna is the only Enjoyer. There is too much concern for what destination I might attain. We should be thoughtful that Krishna knows everything and knows what is best for each and every one of us.
As far as being designated a diksha guru within ISKCON, since ISKCON is to be managed by the GBC, it is vital that they regulate this distinction. They will, no doubt make some successful decisions, and some unsuccessful decisions. Such is life, but the intention of the GBC should remain to serve the mission of Srila Prabhupad in the spirit that they best understand this to be. If one cannot accept that, then how could they claim to represent the heart of Srila Prabhupad. And, the GBC, like any thoughtful collective, must be self-critical to improve and learn from their successes and mistakes.
Pusta Krishna das
Ananda dd wrote; “I dont agree with Aindra prabhus point that a Kanistha-Adhikari is not a Vaisnava and therefore can not be Guru, that is not in line with Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.”
Actually Ananda Mata,it seems that it is indeed in line with SP’s teachings. According to the conversation below at least;
760206mw.may Conversations:
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’ practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very rare. Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a little light.
Hrdyananda: So devotee really means one who has love for Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that I am this, I am that, I am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king,all these are thinking like that, they are all nonsense. I am servant of Krsna,that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That is self-realization, atma-tattvam. …..,,.,…………………..
In 1986, after some prominent leaders had left devotional service, ISKCON was in shambles and many devotees, including Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, had a crisis of faith. At that time, the new GBC for South Africa, His Holiness Giriraj Swami, told me frankly that the problem was that we didn’t have enough advanced devotees in ISKCON. I really appreciated his honest answer to whatever challenging question I had asked.
And that’s really what Srila Prabhupada warns us about in NOI: that although kanistha and madhyama adhikaris can also accept disciples, it is understood that their disciples will not be able to advance very well “under their insufficient guidance” and that we should be careful to only accept an uttama-adhikari as a spiritual master. He further states that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura has given some hints on how to recognize an uttama adhikari–by his ability to make devotees all over the world.
By this criterion, we may be confident that we have a lot of devotees who do this and are therefore uttama-adhikaris. But practically, we do know that this is not a fact, because the three devotees I mentioned at the beginning of this post were extraordinarily successful in opening temples, printing, and distributing books. And yet, they failed in their guidance and many devotees’ spiritual lives came to a grinding halt.
(After all, salesmen and industrialists also distribute their wares all over the world.)
So what is the criterion? The test of the spiritual master is that he is able to evoke love for Krsna in the heart of the disciple by inspiring him or her to practice devotional service according to Srila Rupa Goswami’s definition: anyabhilasita sunyam jnana karmady anavrtam: unflinching devotional service unmixed with fruitive desires, speculative knowledge, and whatever does not foster remembrance of Krsna. Kindly remember the definition of VAIDHI sadhana-bhakti (never mind raganuga-sadhana!). Smartavyah satatam visnuh, vismartavyo na jatucit / sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkara: Always remember Krsna and never forget Him. All the rules and regulations of sastra are the servants of these two principles.
To be continued…
… Continued
Srila Prabhupada wanted all the devotees to be “independently thoughtful and responsible.” This doesn’t mean that they are meant to function independently from the institution, but the fact is that ultimately we are responsible for our own spiritual lives. It is not just our right but our duty as well to select a spiritual master in whom we have full faith. We cannot rely on somebody else’s faith in this or that spiritual master. Krsna consciousness is personal and so is our relationship with Krsna’s representative. Our faith should be heart deep. Otherwise it will fail us some day or other and we will either leave Krsna consciousness or vegetate within the movement, or worse, take advantage of it for our own personal purposes.
These are just some thoughts from my personal experience. I hope they may help someone sometime.
Aindra Prabhu says: “The legislation business and the rubber stamping business is a erroneous approach from the get go. That is not standard sampradayic system. The real question is who is qualified.”
Perhaps that is true in the ideal world. In 1977 Srila Prabhupada ‘rubber stamped’ 11 individuals as ‘officiating acharyas’. However we understand this term, it was a very important position, since he selected these 11 out of several thousand disciples at his disposal. Were these 11 ‘qualified’? Apparently in the eyes of Srila Prabhupada they were qualified enough for what he had in mind at that time. That would mean there is value for a sampradaya in at least occasional ‘rubber stamping’. But if we replace the term ‘rubber stamping’ with ‘careful selection’ – all of a sudden nobody seem to object and everything is fine.
Yes Guru should be an uttama adhikari that is stated by Srila Prabhupada so many times like quoted above by Sita Rama Prabhu in Nectar of Instruction vers 5 purport , otherwise one will not advance very much in KC…due to insufficient guidance
How many times that Srila Prabhupda said that “KC is practical”? Some of Srila Prabhuapda’s main points in preaching: 1) KC is a science; 2) KC can be propagated through leaders in society; 3) when a devotee gets a service it is an opportunity to come up with qualification for the service, and qualification will come by Krishna’s grace; 4) emphasis on love and trust amongst devotees and cooperation of course.
So within ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada would no doubt use these principles as well in managing and engaging devotees. Including the 11 eleven disciples who could take on their own disciples after Srila Prabhupada’s departure from this world. It was an opportunity as for any other service to try to please Guru and Krishna in humility and dedication. But it did not seem to quite turn out that way… In any case the conclusion is no doubt going to this direction: humility and dedication to fulfilling guru’s instructions. Then the whole thing works despite flaws along the way. Simply by Krishna’s grace. In this world, no fire without smoke. This is practical.
Now the question: how long will it take anybody to come up to par, being an uttama-adhikary? While the movement of Lord Caitanya is picking up speed having been set in motion throughout the world by Srila Prabhupada. The more people read Srila Prabhupada’s books, they eventually come to understand the necessity of accepting a spiritual master. Then what? “Who are you going to call?” Better have some individuals who can deserve the faith and service of sincere aspiring devotees. And I believe very firmly that there are such souls in ISKCON by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and Sri Gaura Nitai. Too bad for the those who are cynical about this perspective.
We have in ISKCON all of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, so much of it, still available. That is “the uttama-adhikary” that one needs to find, but without neglecting either to apply oneself into following Srila Prabhupad’s teaching that one should find and accept an initiating spiritual master down the road. I appreciate the system of ISKCON for its practicality. The saintliness of individuals is to be appreciated by those taking on the path of saintliness as well. After all, even when Krishna was here, many people thought He was an ordinary man. This is the vision of the ordinary man. And ISKCON is meant to turn ordinary men into extraordinary men going forward through leaders who are dedicated to Srila Prabhupada’s mission. Pleasing guru is key.
The Acharyas all seem to be in agreement on this one;
Vaisnava-ninda
Criticizing a Vaisnava
by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.
Having thus been forewarned about vaisnava-ninda, it is absolutely imperative to first ascertain what specifically designates one a Vaisnava, and then determine which acts result in vaisnava-aparadha (offences to Vaisnavas). All jivas fit into one of four categories: (1) ordinary jivas; (2) religious jivas; (3) brahmanas and those jivas who resemble Vaisnavas (vaisnavapraya jivas); and (4) vaisnava-jivas.
With the wisdom that Sri Krsna resides in the heart of all jivas, one should honour every living being. A deeper respect should naturally be shown to the religious jiva, and, beyond this, it is imperative to feel even deeper honour for the brahmana-jiva and the vaisnava-praya jiva. But above all, it is enjoined that one must worship and serve the lotus feet of a vaisnava-jiva.
If one fails to offer respect to the common jiva, special respect to the religious jiva, and befitting honour to the brahmana and vaisnava-praya jivas, then one incurs sin (papa). However, to disrespect or dishonour a vaisnava-jiva is actually an aparadha (an offence against divinity). There is no form of sin that cannot be destroyed by performing ordinary penances,but an aparadha committed against a Vaisnava is not easily eradicated. Sins affect the gross and subtle material bodies, whereas an aparadha specifically affects the jiva’s quest to establish himself in his constitutional position as a pure spirit soul, causing him to fall from his path. Therefore, those who wish to perform loving worship of the Supreme Lord (bhagavad-bhajana) must diligently protect themselves from committing aparadha.
Kulpavana Prabhu,
I wish to offer a some food for thought.
When Srila Prabhupada appointed 11 disciples as the officiating acharyas, he had the eligibility to do as the Acharya of ISKCON (for which he was the founder) and as a Maha Bhagavat Guru. Personally, I wouldn’t equate (decision of the acharya) to “Rubber stamping” because the empowerment of the acharya can not compared to his disciples herein.
The point, as you mention, about “careful selection” is that Srila Prabhupada had the fitness to select 11 disciples (due to the above reason) to initiate but can that be equally said for a council having within members devotees of varying standards of spiritual realization?
At this point I would like to ask where is the Sampradayic sakti flowing from? Does it flow from a Guru to his disciple and so on? Or through a ecclesiastic body which decides when and where it flows?
The understanding of the learned Vaishanva community is that the Samparadaya is a living force and will choose who should be empowered by its own will regardless of his/her institutional approval/affiliation. Because empowerment means Krishna Sakti. How can body decide who is fit to be recognized as Krishna Sakti Kripa Prapta and later “suspend” the flow?
We may herein argue that that body has been formed by Srila Prabhupada and is needed for proper management. And besides its a body of devotees so reduces the chances for a wrong decision to be passed. True.
So if seen in a proper light we would see that Srila Prabhupada was radical in his preaching and did many things that was not necessarily approved or accepted by his god-brothers. So in a sense it could be said Srila Prabhupada did not have the approval of the Vaishnavas in the Sarasvat dhara. Does that mean Srila Prabhupada was wrong? No. Because having understood the “Manobhistam” of his Guru Maharaj, he did what his Guru wanted.
But didn’t Srila Prabhupada also say that the members of that body should be “Acharya like”? Because only a pure devotee can understand another pure devotee.
For the sake of discussion, if we assume that the governing body at some point has only Madhyama and lower ranks of devotee and for some reason the body forbids a uttama adhikari from accepting disciples or “suspend” him from being a Guru, so does that mean that Uttama adhikari siddha is now bereft of the potency coming down from Lord Caitanya and when the suspension is evoked the potency starts flowing again?
Continued….
Wiliiam Prabhu, pranams… and thank you for a very thoughtful response.
When we look at the historical facts, we see that whether ‘rubber stamping’ or if you prefer, ‘careful selection’, is done by an empowered acharya or the managerial body appointed by him, there is no guarantee that the results of such selection will always be positive. That much is very clear from the history of our movement. Thus your argument regarding the “Sampradayic sakti flow” seems rather unconvincing to me. Simply put, the facts do not seem to support such a theory.
Srila Prabhupada started initiating disciples in 1953 in Jhansi, and there was nobody in Gaudiya Matha trying to stop him. In our lineage disciples of a departed guru have an open ended permission to accept disciples and it is a matter entirely between a prospective disciple and a person they see as qualified to be their guru. This is what Srila Prabhupada and others call the ‘law of disciplic succession’. However, since now in ISKCON these guru-disciple relationships exist within the framework of an organized global mission, naturally there need to be some standards in that matter. The GBC has set such standards and for the most part they seem to be working just fine.
Her Grace Visakha Priya dasi’s comments in #6 & 7 are brilliant and inspiring. The reality of success and apparent failure in our progressive march to Krishna are not always what appear on the surface. Failures also are designed for us to learn from. Krishna has said that His maya cannot be overcome except by bhakti. Over many, many lifetimes, we may arrive at the threshold of bhakti. It is not so easy, and it is very rare. Even living in an ashram is no guarantee of success, but it is not to be diminished either.
What others must understand, and I declare it: Srila Prabhupad brought out the very best in us! Obedience to Sri Gurudeva is initially a bitter pill, because one must align one’s own free will and choice with the desire and will of the spiritual master. Then, if heartbreak should come, as Visakha Priya dd has noted, that the “leader” falls away or disappoints one, the followers may take it as an opportunity to allow one’s own ego to predominate again for self-centric sense gratification. But, Visakha Priya dd is too genuine: “Our faith should be heart deep…..” Her comments are very much appreciated and true.
We are not seeking to become “religious”, but rather surrendered and Krishna conscious. This is a great spiritual culture. Today in the operating room, I was performing surgery on an Indian gentleman in the Silicon Valley, who although a computer engineer and more, was also previously an accomplished Sanskrit scholar during his youth. We were speaking about God, and our anesthesiologist (a western man) asked: “So, who is God?” I immediately responded, “Krishna, of course.” These moments for others may not bear fruit immediately but they may in future lifetimes. Who can say? What western devotee (not born into a Vaishnava family) during their youth ever expected to dedicate their life to Krishna or an Indian spiritual culture. Indeed, the genuine spiritual master can inspire one to love Krishna. But, the concept of Guru cannot be so limited also. When Kirtanananda Swami was with me in Tampa, Florida in 1971-2, he was very inspiring to me and others. His activities and consciousness were deviant later, but as I said: Srila Prabhupad brought out the very best in us….at some time in our lives. May his divine influence persist always in our lives, for our benefit and the benefit of others. Hare Krishna. Pusta Krishna das
Personally,I feel part of the problem is the seeming failure of delineation between those who are perfectly qualified and those who are acting in the capacity of Guru without the same perfect qualification.
Srimad Bhagavatam 10.80.31
kaccid guru-kule vasam
brahman smarasi nau yatah
dvijo vijnaya vijneyam
tamasah param asnute
TRANSLATION
My dear brahmana, do you remember how we lived together in our spiritual
master’s school? When a twice-born student has learned from his guru all
that is to be learned, he can enjoy spiritual life, which lies beyond all
ignorance.
(Srimad Bhagavatam 10.80.32)
“My dear friend, he who gives a person his physical birth is his first
spiritual master, and he who initiates him as a twice born brahman and
engages him in religious duties is indeed more directly his spiritual
master. But the person who bestows transcendental knowledge upon the
members
of all the spiritual orders of society is one’s ultimate spiritual
master.
Indeed, he is as good as My own self.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 10.80.34
naham ijya-prajatibhyam
tapasopasamena va
tusyeyam sarva-bhutatma
guru-susrusaya yatha
I, the Soul of all beings, am not as satisfied by ritual worship,
brahminical initiation, penances or self-discipline as I am by faithful
service rendered to one’s spiritual master.
PURPORT
The word prajati here indicates either begetting good children or the
second
birth obtained by ritual initiation into Vedic culture. Although both of
these are praiseworthy, Lord Krsna here states that faithful service
rendered to a bona fide spiritual master is still higher.
A purport from another beautiful verse from the Tenth Canto, Chapter Two, Text 18, supports Nrsingha8 Prabhu’s views.
tato jagan-mangalam acyutamsam
samahitam sura-sutena devi
dadhara sarvatmakam atma-bhutam
kastha yathananda-karam manastah
TRANSLATION
Thereafter, accompanied by plenary expansions, the fully opulent Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is all-auspicious for the entire universe, was transferred from the mind of Vasudeva to the mind of Devaki. Devaki, having thus been initiated by Vasudeva, became beautiful by carrying Lord Krsna, the original consciousness for everyone, the cause of all causes, within the core of her heart, just as the east becomes beautiful by carrying the rising moon.
PURPORT
As indicated here by the word manastah, the Supreme Personality of Godhead was transferred from the core of Vasudeva’s mind or heart to the core of the heart of Devaki. We should note carefully that the Lord was transferred to Devaki not by the ordinary way for a human being, but by diksa, initiation. Thus the importance of initiation is mentioned here. Unless one is initiated by the right person, who always carries within his heart the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot acquire the power to carry the Supreme Godhead within the core of one’s own heart.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 10.2.18