After having received a healthy feedback from my original article I thought it necessary to write another article. After reflecting the feedbacks it has become clearer to me the need for more clarification especially for the Vegans amongst us. I thought my first article dealt well with the matter to hand, firstly that Veganism is essentially a dietary consideration and secondly Veganism does not offer an alternative to Cow protection within Iskcon.
From speaking at length to my Vegan friends it appears that in the secular world there is basically just one reason for being Vegan. That reason is just a dietary consideration and a dietary reason based on the aversion to violence in the Dairy industry and an aversion to eating meat and fish. When we try to make a fair analysis of the Vegan ideal it falls apart due to the secular individuals’ different ways of trying to practise their own way of Veganism, thus it becomes a fairly inconsistent effort.
If we just try to look at how a Vegan operates from the kitchen point of view then we have a small jigsaw puzzle understanding of what a Vegan is. Looking at Vegan’s lifestyles brings in more circumstances to that picture. Many Vegans take intoxications, engage in illicit sexlife and perhaps gamble, considering this lifestyle to be totally acceptable. As we zoom out from the personal lifestyle of a typical Vegan in secular world then the practises of food production comes under scrutiny.
I have not actually been able to find a Vegan producing farmstyle that is sustainable and eco friendly that actually follows its credentials. All of the Vegans that I know just shop at supermarkets, their local grocer, a farm shop producing “organic” vegetables and etc etc.(of course most “organic” produce is using animal products) As far as most of the Vegans I talked to say, they don’t use Honey produced by Honey Bees, so presumably they also don’t eat fruit that is pollinated by bees on most UK commercial farms and around the world.
As a Beekeeper, myself, from a long time ago Beekeepers were an integrated part of commercial fruit production and of course a lot of fruit is pollinated in this way. All trees like Apples, Pears, Cherries and Plums etc are pollinated by bees whether in commercial fields or just in your back garden. So where do Vegans draw the line? The answer is the line is arbitrary. And if you’re drinking alcohol as a Vegan then your principles are questionable anyways. And as we meander through the Vegan swamps then it becomes totally clear that Vegans are consistently inconsistent.
With Veganism the lofty heights of principle connection take us to the higher modes of passion and the lower modes of goodness at best, that’s analysing a Vegan that follows four regulative principles. So from just a dietary point of view they are wanting. But lets then take the next step away from just dietary considerations. What is the Vegan lifestyle, how is it defined, where is it manifest and how is it Scriptually authorised??
Unfortunately there is not one. The deep meditation that Veganism offers in the secular world does not exist. They actually don’t have an answer, there is no alternative. There is no consistent model for secular society to opt into; there is no Vegan standard. And there is no authorised process apart from the speculated ideas.
In fact there is no Vegan competition to Cow protection whatsoever. There is no economic model, no community model, no symbiotic relationship, no sustainable path to follow as a standard way of life, there is no agricultural model of sustainability, there is no alternative energy production model, and there is no social answers whatsoever. In fact my research and talking to Vegans personally have borne absolutely no fruit. Veganism has no example of integrated lifestyle. Not one part of the Cow protection project is at all compromised by Veganism. Cow protection comes in hands down in front of anything Veganism can or can’t offer.
What makes this so relevant is because the devotees of Lord Krishna associate their existence and identity within the Iskcon Vaisnava organisation. Out side of Iskcon there is debate, as the independence of every living entity is never called into question. But once we step inside Iskcon everything changes. That’s everything. Because we have a Founder-Acharya of Iskcon, the antithesis of Veganism, and we have a Sampradaya history stretching back to Lord Krishna Himself we have the mahoosive advantage of authority, authorised practises, Instruction, association, and Scriptural evidences.
Cow protection positively and pro-actively illustrates the opposite to Cow slaughter whereas Veganism just negates that practice by abstinence. That’s a massive advantage over Veganism straightaway. Cow protection is part of a universal holistic organism as a way of life for devotees to follow. This lifestyle is not just universal, holistic and sustainable but readily illustrates how to exhibit the Agricultural model without slaughtering animals. In fact it is a harmonious process. Veganism can’t exhibit this model, even if they wanted to because it does not positively include animals.
“The Vegetarian Myth” book authored by 20years Vegan practitioner Mr Lierre Keith illustrates clearly the pitfalls in global Veganism. From dietary deficiencies, the total lack of vegan fertiliser for Nitrogen in a natural form for Vegan Agriculture, to the modern practises of Agriculture for the Vegan market are all explained from the ex-Vegan perspective. Because Vegans ethically cannot use animal torque and draught power when it comes to farming 1000’s of acres of Soya, Wheat and Rice then their only resort is the modern tractor with all its devastating consequences. And then marrying that technique up to the post-war application of artificial fertilisers for N.P.K., which all Vegans have to subscribe to whether they like it or not, we are faced with a horrendous picture that is the Vegan & Vegetarian conclusion.
However the Cow protection Agricultural model when properly practised is able to counter these global practises and solve these logistical issues. The Bullocks and in some cases Horses provide all the torque and draft power necessary to farm these acres of land. Their manure completes the perfectly harmonious arrangement in the Cow protection projects by fertilising the lands, using biodynamic methods; rotational farming and green fertilisers all together provide invigorating health for the living soil.
Cow protection then demands mode of goodness solutions to the economic problems of life. Based on a symbiotic relationship with Cows, Bulls and land a mode of goodness community solves the problems of life. Veganism has absolutely no answers for this problem. Cows manure is used in a two-fold system for helping solve the problems of economy by providing Methane Gas in anaerobic digesters for sustainable energy solutions and then by providing perfect (Nitrogen) fertilisers in the form of ammonium bicarbonate for fields, greenhouses, gardens and orchards. In fact there is no limit to how Cow protection affords facilities to devotees, its practically endless. It doesn’t just stop at Cows and Bulls. Horses also can be engaged for individual and collective transportation; Sheep/Llamas/Al Paccas can provide the ever-useful and versatile raw wool for allsorts of practical solutions. And the eternal Vaisnava quality of inclusive mercifulness means all animals can take shelter of Cow protection projects without being exploited. Animals can take positive sanctuary. Again Veganism has nothing to offer on these levels.
Cow protection steps up to the mark again by offering the mode of goodness association in many ways. Cow protection is a mode of goodness activity in itself. The location is mode of goodness, the foodstuffs are mode of goodness, the lifestyle is mode of goodness and the mode of goodness culture that is Brahminical culture is part of Cow protection through its lifestyle solutions. Cow protection is in itself a self-sustaining natural process by using the Bullocks as torque and draft providers in an Agricultural setting. Cow protection is a way of life in the mode of goodness.
Then there are so many social and governing benefits of this mode of goodness culture that Veganism does not even dream about. The Cow protection process has been systematically handed down to us in Iskcon. We have our Founder-Acharya, Srila Prabhupada, perhaps the greatest of all our Acharyas who has explained to Iskcon with so many different instructions on how to protect Cows. This integrated philosophical approach has greatly enhanced the need for Cow protection into today’s secular society to positively proactively illustrate the alternative to Cow slaughter.
“So many facilities are afforded by cow protection, but people have forgotten these arts. The importance of cow protection is therefore stressed by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-Gita. Even now villagers live happily simply by giving protection to the cow. They keep cow dung and dry it to use as fuel. They keep sufficient stock of grains, and they have sufficient milk and milk products to solve all the economic problems.”
Srimad Bhagavatam 10.6.19.
This is the mission of Cow protection that Veganism has no conceptions on. Veganism exhibits their anti-animal abuse principles by negation, by not consuming animal products and by not symbiotically relating to Cows. Their stance is to be involved against cruelty by engaging in positively avoiding animals and animal products. But Iskcon’s stance is the direct opposite and this makes Veganism directly the antithesis of Iskcon. Iskcon directly pro-actively illustrates the positive alternative to animal slaughter with the wonderfully sublime Cow protection projects. We engage with animals and especially Cows by protection. The Bull is the representative of Religion and the Cow is the representative of Earth and our Mother. And Iskcon is directly in a symbiotic relationship with both these honourable beasts. We worship our Cows and Bulls, that’s how important they are placed by Iskcon members and Srila Prabhupada’s Mission. And again there is nothing worshippable in Veganism; it’s just a dry, mental process.
From the philosophical point of view regarding the principle of violence, it is not possible to avoid violence by abstinence or by inaction. A devotee is guided that he must execute his prescribed duties, which are glorious, without material profit. And then significantly the devotee is instructed that he must regularly perform his devotional activities without excessive violence. (S.Bhagavatam 3.29.15.) From Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapiladeva.
The concept of violence within activity in conditional life is beyond our control. We have to commit violence; that is a natural law. But we are implored to commit “minimum violence” or natihimsa. The concept of Veganism of avoiding violence by abstinence does not stack up philosophically. We cannot avoid violence in conditional life, so we must minimise violence. And in Iskcon we follow that instruction by Cow protection in a very pro-active positive action. That’s another reason why Veganism does not work in Iskcon; because we have the intrinsical Cow protection project as a mission given by Lord Krishna in Bhagavad-Gita and within the purposes of Iskcon. If we followed the Vegan ethic in Iskcon then Cow protection would not get a look in because Vegans don’t eat, use or protect animals and animal products. Vegans do not have a pro-active principle of engaging animals or even using animal products such as wool, milk and dairy products, animal manure, animal torque and draft power and so on.
The point of this clarification is two-folded.
That Veganism is just a dietary consideration primarily based on a certain ethic, that shows no alternatives to pro-actively engage in, which is purely egocentrically motivated.
That Cow protection is the theistic answer to all our problems. That Cow protection is a perfectly complete and completely perfect universal holistic system that offers all benefits to the practioners of Cow protection and to the Cows themselves through a safe protective environment. Cow protection affords the many facilities to mankind without animal exploitation and slaughter by example. That Cow protection is way beyond just an agricultural and food production process by being part of the social organism that mankind has to live by. Cow protection offers mode of goodness government, the ability and facility of corruption avoidance, the opportunity of society to live a communal simpler way of life through Brahminical Culture.
These are the advantages of Iskcon Cow protection over Veganism; the diet of Vegans is just a tertiary point.
It is articles like these, that make me feel so welcomed amongst the devotees. I’m glad we’re using our energy to fight such a demoniac source. People who dare to be compassionate, even performing the greater austerity, of avoiding leather and dairy products. We can see from this type of commitment, the zeal of these fanatics. Prabhupada built a house the whole world could live in. Except for those of us who upon seeing, the horrific pain that cows are put through, in order to get milk and leather, decide out of horrible compassion, to try to limit our support of concentration camp, factory farms.
It is also wonderful to know, that impersonalism, does not mean, that you can ascribe the same motivation, judgement, and understanding of what someone is thinking, to a couple of million people. Apparently impersonalism, has nothing to do, with depersonalizing, and avoiding seeing the individuality of 2 or 3 million vegans. It’s not impersonal to lump 3 million people together, call them ‘vegans’ and then tar all of them with the same motives, and criticize them.
I will now inform my numerous vegan friends of the error of their ways. I will let them know, that their current abhorrence of the horrific violence of modern factory farms, is really bad, and not the act of a compassionate soul. I’m sure these misguided souls will come flocking to the temple, ready to drink the millions of gallons of non violent milk, that our farms are currently producing. I’m sure they’ll be delighted to see, that this is not mere rhetoric, and we have tons of practical examples of sustainable Ahimsa farms. They’ll be delighted to know, these farms exist all over the west, at present. They’ll be happy to know that Prabhupada didn’t believe in telling people, that something would exist in the future. That he often said to the scientists, “What is this, ‘we will produce life in the future’, let me see you do it “now”. Yes, they will be glad to know, that their mere ‘actions” are no match for our ‘words’, and we back up our rethoric, of thriving sustainable compassionate farms, with unlimited examples of successful farms, in the West, run by Westerners who are no mere ‘keyboard generals’. but follow through with positive action.
I’m also sure that, this criticizing of vegans, who often perform an immense amount of austerity to follow their principles, has nothing to do, with a slight feeling of inadequacy, or even jealousy, or guilt, on our behalf.
This article states: “That Veganism is just a dietary consideration primarily based on a certain ethic, that shows no alternatives to pro-actively engage in, which is purely egocentrically motivated.”
It surprises me that dandavats.com would allow such an embarrassing article as this for public viewing. This article with its straw man arguments does no favor to Mahaprabhu’s mission. Rather it shows the “egocentrically motivated” agenda of those who do not yet see the supreme within and without all that exists.
(SB 3.29.20-23)
“As the chariot of air carries an aroma from its source and immediately catches the sense of smell, similarly, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, can catch the Supreme Soul, who is equally present everywhere.”
“I am present in every living entity as the Supersoul. If someone neglects or disregards that Supersoul everywhere and engages himself in the worship of the Deity in the temple, that is simply imitation.”
“One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples but does not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramātmā, is situated in every living entity’s heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one who offers oblations into ashes.”
(SB 3.28.42,44)
“A yogi should see the same soul in all manifestations, for all that exists is a manifestation of different energies of the Supreme. In this way the devotee should see all living entities without distinction. That is realization of the Supreme Soul.”
“Thus the yogī can be in the self-realized position after conquering the insurmountable spell of māyā, who presents herself as both the cause and effect of this material manifestation and is therefore very difficult to understand.”
wow prabhu that was a lot on cow protection.
I agree with you that more ISKCON devotees should practice what they preach and own a cow; certainly, the lifestyle is perfect and sooo attractive. I’m not sure why more devotees don’t choose that lifestyle. Any thoughts?
But, I’d like you to consider why krsna sent the buddha. As I remember, and i’ll warn you my memory is pretty bad, brahmanas were killing animals too much in the wrong way. Buddha was a stage, a step, to change things. After him came, who was it? Sankaracharya? He was the next step. All with the goal to get vaisnavism back on track. That was krsna’s gradual plan. Sometimes you need to take things in steps. If you look at it that way “vegans” aren’t really so bad. If everyone suddenly became vegan (ha-ha) all the slaughterhouses would shut down. All the factory dairy farms that torture and then kill cows would shut down. That wouldn’t be a bad step.
No ISKCON devotee is going to say veganism is the ultimate ideal, but they may say it’s a step toward the right direction of cow protection.
You’d do better to stick to talking about how beautiful and good raising cows is, rather than attacking an “other” of whom you do not know everything. I’ve seen a solar powered tractor, and i’ve seen super effective manure made from plants only, no blood or bone stuff, etc etc etc. and yes, I’m convinced that the world could run without cows plowing the land and giving milk. It’s just that it wouldn’t be as good of a world as one in which cows were happily helping humans. What I wish, is that with your passion for cow protection you could convince more devotees to buy a cow and live the life.
Don’t be hard on ISKCON devotees who believe the step of veganism, along WITH the ultimate (cow owning), is the correct path. Devotees who focus on preaching, know that food prasadam can wipe away lots of dust in a person’s heart. If the preaching devotees move to a country that only eats carrots, they will not want to start out trying to convince the carrot-eaters to eat all veggies and milk. They will instead offer tons of different carrot preparations to krsna. Krsna wants preachers to do the needful according to time and circumstance, to bring people to Him.
I would like to hear your thoughts on krsna’s dealing with kaliya serpent. I think we should follow His lead and do something to stop the torture in the present dairy farms. I think it is our duty. What do you think?
Veganism is a nutritionally deficient diet but a more convincing argument against it comes from Srila Prabhupada’s own words when he speaks regarding the benefits of cow’s milk on the brain.
Hare Krishna, i am a fourth class devotee, and have been around since the late seventies, this subject has bothered me for along time, iam amazed at some of the comments of (devotees) if one thinks that the cows natural position in this life is to be kept in milking condtion for as long as posibile, they are mistaken, the mother knows when it is time for its calf to leave the milk and be put to solid the same as in humane life,if their is a little milk after the calf has had its fill fine, this should be used for the Deities, other than that we should start thinking about substutes. bhakta david.
Hare Krsna—With respect and love, Difference in opinion is healthy. This is what I go by and the reason for my opinion:
Srila Prabhupada also instructed us “Milk is compared to nectar, which one can drink to become immortal. Of course, simply drinking milk will not make one immortal, but it can increase the duration of one’s life. In modern civilization, men do not think milk to be important, and therefore they do not live very long. Although in this age men can live up to one hundred years, their duration of life is reduced because they do not drink large quantities of milk. This is a sign of Kali-yuga. In Kali-yuga, instead of drinking milk, people prefer to slaughter an animal and eat its flesh. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His instructions of Bhagavad-Gita, advises go-raksya, which means cow protection. The cow should be protected, milk should be drawn from the cows, and this milk should be prepared in various ways. One should take ample milk, and thus one can prolong one’s life, develop his brain, execute devotional service, and ultimately attain the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As it is essential to get food grains and water by digging the earth, it is also essential to give protection to the cows and take nectarean milk from their milk bags. “
Although no one needs to follow such tapasya to achieve bhakti, Dhruva Maharaja adopted a “vegan” diet throughout his journey of self realization. SB even says this diet is enough to keep the body & soul together. Therefore, I would advise the author to retract any statements in critique of this diet adopted by such a mahabhagavata.
SB 4.8.55: One should worship the Lord by offering pure water, pure flower garlands, fruits, flowers and vegetables, which are available in the forest, or by collecting newly grown grasses, small buds of flowers or even the skins of trees, and if possible, by offering tulasī leaves, which are very dear to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
SB 4.8.56: It is possible to worship a form of the Lord made of physical elements such as earth, water, pulp, wood and metal. In the forest one can make a form with no more than earth and water and worship Him according to the above principles. A devotee who has full control over his self should be very sober and peaceful and must be satisfied simply with eating whatever fruits and vegetables are available in the forest.
SB 4.8.72: For the first month Dhruva Mahārāja ate only fruits and berries on every third day, only to keep his body and soul together, and in this way he progressed in his worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
SB 4.8.73: In the second month Dhruva Mahārāja ate only every six days, and for his eatables he took dry grass and leaves. Thus he continued his worship.
SB 4.8.74: In the third month he drank water only every nine days. Thus he remained completely in trance and worshiped the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is adored by selected verses.
SB 4.8.75: In the fourth month Dhruva Mahārāja became a complete master of the breathing exercise, and thus he inhaled air only every twelfth day. In this way he became completely fixed in his position and worshiped the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
SB 4.8.76: By the fifth month, Mahārāja Dhruva, the son of the King, had controlled his breathing so perfectly that he was able to stand on only one leg, just as a column stands, without motion, and concentrate his mind fully on the Parabrahman.
SB 4.8.77: He completely controlled his senses and their objects, and in this way he fixed his mind, without diversion to anything else, upon the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
I follow what Srila Prabhupada taught,including his instruction on diet.
As a sidenote–years ago, after three decades of being a vegetarian and before coming to Krishna Consciousness,I embraced veganism and not too long after developed a B-12 deficiency which I later found was related to my veganism.
Suffice to say you and others have adopted veganism and are happy with it,that is good,for me,it is my desire to follow Srila Prabhupada’s instruction on eating,food and diet.
Mercy/cruelty free–a universal religious principle
Animal slaughter/meat eating is one of the four pillars of sinful life. This practice destroys ‘mercy’ and is so much more harmful then the other pillars that Srila Prabhupada said that if a disciple resumed their old sinful habits (intoxication, illicit sex etc.) he or she should still be considered a Vaisnava unless they ate meat.
Devotees have always preached against animal slaughter but it was PETA and similar secular organizations that were most successful in packaging and promoting the message throughout mainstream society because the concept of being ‘cruelty free’ resonates with everyone. It transcends economic/political/religious divisions and has made the vegan lifestyle fashionable worldwide. WHY?
Because being ‘cruelty free’ or merciful to other living entities is a universal religious, spiritual, and ethical principle, one that Vaisnavas have cherished and promoted since the beginning of time.
That’s why diatribes like these two embarrassing articles against Vegans in Iskcon are ill conceived.
While devotees differ with many vegans on details, the practice of Vaisnavism remains perfectly compatible with a vegan diet, and Vaisnavas are 100% in agreement with the principle of MERCY to animals, which is the foundation of the vegan movement.
Brahma dasa
I have noticed that the zeal expressed here for the vegan diet has the same passion I see on certain health/nutrition internet sites around the web,it all strikes me as having a ‘worldly’ feel to it.
I once expressed concern on an internet site questioning the possible health risks and vitamin deficiencies incurred by a vegan diet and I received angry responses for months after.
Ultimately,we should ask,what did Srila Prabhupada have to say about what kind of foods to eat and eating itself?
Vegan diets have been linked to a multitude of health benefits including lowered cancer and heart disease risks and low blood pressure, cholesterol and obesity rates.
A well-planned vegan diet is generally low in saturated fat, void of cholesterol and high in plant nutrients but it’s true that one essential vitamin the diet is deficient in is B12. This vitamin generally found in animal products (such as milk) is used by the human body to create DNA and keep red blood cells and nerve cells healthy. Vegans can get this vitamin from fortified cereals, brewers yeast, tofu and other sources including supplements.
So a case can be made that human beings are naturally meant to eat animals or animal products, indeed the fact that humans have two canine teeth support the notion that they are naturally meant to eat meat. While the body can certainly be sustained by a carnivorous diet devotees are interested in more than mere maintenance, they are interested in developing the quality of mercy in order to make spiritual advancement. Indeed, the the quality of mercy is essential to genuine spiritual practice.
Devotees cultivate mercy by following a lacto-vegetarian prasadam diet and vegans cultivate mercy by following a pure vegetarian diet. Devotees who don’t have access to cruelty-free milk may as there conscience dictates follow a vegan prasadam diet in protest to the cruelty of factory farming. By not drinking milk they practice a different form of cow protection, one that discourages the breeding of animals for slaughter.
All considered the cultivation of the quality of Mercy is the common ground between devotees and vegans. This should be respected by both parties and built upon, and until devotees can provide cruelty-free milk there is no need to preach to vegans to become lacto-vegetarians. Instead let Vegans be vegans and inspire them to be Vaisnavas through purity of devotion.
Again, Vaisnavism is perfectly compatible with a vegan diet.
Brahma dasa
Those devotees that say the vegan diet is nutritionally deficient, must surely take note of the book written by Steven Rosen, (one of the most seinor devottes) and i would like to quote his words on page 5 of the book Diet for Transcendence—There are thus no amino acids in flesh that animals do not derive from plants,or that humans cannot ALSO derive from plants,Iskcon must be clear these subjects, or they become very confusing to the new comer.
Comments 8 & 10
Irregardless, dietary preference has absolutely no bearing on the acquisition of bhakti. If you happen to feel that you are a “better devotee” than others because you eat dairy and others may not, then kudos to you prabhu. Good luck on eating your way to Krsna prema.
As for myself, sometimes I consume copious amounts a dairy and sometimes I consume none. Even past acharyas would abstain from various dairy products during Caturmasya as an austerity. So what does that say about those devotees that abstain from dairy for life? I personally know more than a handful of GBC members, ISKCON gurus, and sannyasas who have adopted vegan diets. Maybe you want to recheck your critical analysis of those who choose to abstain from dairy.
Either way, you are missing the big picture.
BS 5.38: I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Syamasundara, Krsna Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love.
SB 11.13.24: Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.
Amino acids are different than vitamins. The Oxford American dictionary puts it like this: Amino acids are organic compounds that occur naturally in plant and animal tissues and are the basic constituents of proteins.
Vitamins are organic compounds that are essential for normal growth and nutrition and are required in small quantities in the diet because they cannot be synthesized by the body. Vitamin B12 is a microbe/bacteria produced by microorganisms in the soil.
Suffice to say that doctors and nutritionists believe that an unfortified vegan diet is deficient in essential vitamin B-12, which supports the theory that humans are naturally omnivorous—meant to eat both plants and animals or animal products such as milk.
Still, a vegan diet fortified by B-12 may be healthier than a lacto-vegetarian diet because cholesterol which is mainly derived from animal fat (milk products) contributes to a number of health problems particularly atherosclerosis.
The point is—BALANCE—in both diet and preaching and that’s the problem with this article—-a complete lack of balance, which makes it appear unreasonable and fanatic even to devotees.
AGAIN, there is nothing wrong with a Vaisnava following a vegan diet and boycotting the modern dairy industry. Along with B-12 all a vegan has to do is add Krsna consciousness to his life in order to make it completely perfect.
Brahma dasa
Unfortunately I did not stop eating milk products out of a noble reason – protest against cruelty of the milk industry. I m not that compassionate. I stopped when I was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. I was fully convinced that I will not gamble with my life by placing it into the hands of allopathic doctors, so a drastic change of my diet was priority in my quest for natural cure. Since I stopped eating milk products and gluten my health improved, at least I do not have major crisis. Therefore claim that vegan diet is nutritionally deficient is not true! There are so many people with serious health problems who experience significant improvements of their health due to lactose free diet. As I said this was quite practical and selfish reason. But this new practice made me rethink the “theory” as well.
First of all I want to express that I do believe that cow protection is and should be one of the main activities of ISKCON. However when it comes to consumption of himsa milk I believe that we should not hide ourselves behind Srila Prabhupada’s statements, and use them to justify our inability to take care of cows, or to stop supporting cruel exploitation of cows. Sometimes there is a tendency to “freeze” Srila Prabhupada and not to allow a possibility that maybe he would change his opinion on something due to time, place and circumstances. This of course does not pertain to Srila Prabhupada’s statements concerning the Absolute Truth, but temporarily things influenced by the three modes. Srila Prabhupada was aware of cruel conditions in which cows lived, but in the meantime these conditions became vicious. Milk became poisoned by genetic manipulations, hormones, antibiotics, i.e., “it became touched by the mouth of a snake”. Milk became dangerous for our health. Would Krishna still be pleased if we offer Him milk produced by immeasurably suffering cows, milk which can jeopardize health of His devotees? Still Krishna needs milk. Milk is much more than a foodstuff in sattva guna, and therefore by default good for us, despite of cruelty and toxicity. Milk is a crucial udipana in loving exchanges between Krishna and His devotees. Let our milk in its origin and purpose reflects sweetness and nutrition of Krishna’s pastimes.
For what it is worth, here are my thoughts on the subject:
1) Veganism does not violate any of the four regulative principles.
2) For one who consumes bhoga (unoffered food) some of the time, a vegan diet is laudable where bhoga is consumed. There is bad karma in consuming any unoffered food, but unoffered milk is especially bad, considering the cruel dairy industry. For examples, calves produced from the pregnancy sent to slaughter for veal, or raised for slaughter later (as beef); a cow that drops milk production sent to slaughter, and so on.
3) The Deities should never be subjected to a vegan diet or denied milk or milk products (for ghee lamps, etc.). As someone posted earlier, the Deities will surely not refuse milk because it came from a tortured cow. Besides, the cow is benefitted by having her milk offered to the Deities.
4) Prasadam containing milk or milk products should never be refused (unless one is lactose intolerant). To do otherwise is offensive. It is also offensive to consider oneself ethically superior to other devotees.
It would be wonderful if every temple or namahatta had a farm where milk could be obtained through cow protection. But until that time, milk for the Deities should be obtained through the best way possible (the adage “time, place and circumstance” applies here). For example, organic milk is a little less cruel than regular milk, since the cows are not force-fed chemicals.
The devotees and bhaktas commenting on this post have enlivened my heart with knowledge. Thank you all. Hare Krishna!
Practically everyone in our movement used to be an ordinary meat-eater who, among other things, accepted Krishna prasadam unconditionally. We KNOW that attachment to meat eating can be overcome fairly easily.
Vegans are past that step already, they can somewhat control their senses, but are they embracing Krishna prasadam like ordinary people do? How many vegans have turned into “normal” devotees? Will they ever? They ideologically object to accepting certain types of prasadam, will that ever change?
Mayavadis are also superior to ordinary people in many ways but what is the value of that superiority if ordinary people can become devotees of Krishna while mayavadis have no chance at all?
Veganism might be a nice step forward at first but if one gets stuck there for years than it’s clearly an obstacle.
Interestingly, apart from solar powered tractors no one has offered any defense of veganism against the main thrust of this article – veganism offers no viable alternative to cow based agriculture and “ISKCON” way. Lots of very critical responses but little substance.
Btw, only a few day ago biggest Chinese solar company filed for bankruptcy, and that is after Chinese competition practically destroyed previously world leading German solar panel industry. The solar boom of a few years ago is now officially a bust, so I won’t put any faith in solar powered tractors just yet.
SOME THOUGHTS ON THE ARTICLE.
Let’s go back to the original stated argument. “Why Veganism in Iskcon does not work”. The very fact that there are many vegans, who practice “Veganism”, in Iskcon, would suggest, this is somewhat incorrect.
“it appears that in the secular world there is basically just one reason for being Vegan……just a dietary consideration ……based on the aversion to violence in the Dairy industry and….eating meat and fish.”
What is the secular world ? Do you believe that all the millions of vegans are ‘secular’, and therefore not religious, or do you only see religiosity, as belonging only to a/your very small tight knit group, and all others as being secular ?
If you speak to vegans, (like vegetarians), there are many many reasons for becoming one. It kind of amazes me, that a vegetarian would not know this. Some do it for health, some because of ethics, some because of morals, some because of a belief in the soul. Again, could you explain how you are privy to the thoughts of millions of vegans ? Is it based on a few conversation, with ‘non secular’ devotee Vegans ?
“Many Vegans take intoxications, engage in illicit sexlife and perhaps gamble, considering this lifestyle to be totally acceptable.” I know many vegans who, except for sexlife, follow the other principles, and are in monogamous relationships. I know plenty of devotees, (or ex devotees, if you wish to use that label) who break all of the above principles. Based on your logic, a non devotee, who keeps the principles, could reject the ‘Vedic Cow theory,’ despite it’s many wonderful merits, if a devotee who is not strictly following the principles, puts forward the cow protection argument. Surely, you can see, how illogical that is?
“I have not actually been able to find a Vegan producing farmstyle that is sustainable and eco friendly that actually follows its credentials.” Please do some research before writing these articles. Not sure if it is ok to put this link to a sustainable eco friendly farm :) If the moderator takes it out, then just do a simple google search. Also, I believe it would be possible to be Vegan and let bulls and cows live in peace, taking their manure, but now their milk.
“So where do Vegans draw the line? The answer is the line is arbitrary…Vegans are consistently inconsistent” Again so are the various groups of devotees, and individual devotees. Some use leather, some not, etc etc. (Cont)
PART 2. ‘The deep meditation that Veganism offers in the secular world does not exist.” What meditation do some? most? or all? vegans offer? This article is filled with “straw men arguments”, where an argument that nobody offered, is put forward, and then shot down.
“In fact there is no Vegan competition to Cow protection whatsoever.”
Exactly! Correct! The devotees who seem to view Veganism as a bad thing appear to be the only people “in a competition”. It really might be more useful, to ask, ‘why do I feel threatened enough by Vegans, and see their satvic, ahimsa diet, and principles as competition to mine? Am I envious of it? Do I feel guilty? Do I feel bad, that their diet can lead to greater clarity of mind and excellent health? Believe me ( If you’re still willing to base your evidence on an opinion) I’ve tried the ‘extreme total raw vegan diet, and I’ve never felt more clear minded, and conscious, than then.
” Out side of Iskcon there is debate, as the independence of every living entity is never called into question”
Do you seriously mean that ?…. I joined because I was questioning everything, and I have many ‘non devotee’ friends who question, these things.
“Because we have a Founder-Acharya of Iskcon, the antithesis of Veganism,”
You might want to consider, that you are projecting your beliefs onto Prabhupada. I always thought Prabhupada was the antithesis of a lack of KC. I always thought ‘utility was the principle’. I always thought the overriding principle was, ‘always remember Krishna and never forget him’. And in order to do so, we ‘accept whatever is favorable to KC’. You may want to consider, beyond your (possibly narrow) vision, that a Vegan diet may be very favorable to a particular individuals spiritual progress. This is a personal philosophy, is it not ? And we are all individuals, with individual desires and needs ?
“authorised practises, Instruction, association, and Scriptural evidences.”
“Are there not many sages and yogis who lived on the grains and fruits of the forests, in the SB? Where in, “a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water, (note, does not specifically mention milk) does it exclude Vegans?….. Ok, I’ll stop here. This article, appears to be very badly researched, and written, with most of the evidence based on a few conversation with Vegans. I say this, not to criticize you, but to show you, that. (Cont)
(Last) PART 3. I say all this, not to criticize you, Dusyanta. But to point out:
1.That most intelligent, (Yes, the intelligent class, that Prabhupapda wanted to join) rational people, would probably reject your arguments as sentimental, fanatical, speculative and not well researched. Therefore, the many wonderful aspects of Vedic farming, and lifestyle would be lost to them, as they would possibly reject all you say.
2. If I were an open minded, non devotee, vegan, who read this article, the tone, content, and arguments would probably turn me off, so much, that I would reject the devotees. Considering them, extremist and fanatics, I would miss out on all the wonderful beauty, that the society offers. I would guess many Vegans would react this way.
3. Why waste so much time and energy fighting and competing with something that, as you say “there is no Vegan competition to cow protection whatsoever.” Isn’t there enough meat eaters, that have few of the compassionate satvic principles of Vegans. Wouldn’t your time be better spent, trying to show them the error of killing animals.
4. Why not create the sustainable farm. Why not show the beautiful alternative of KC, rather than criticize. Is the KC philosophy and lifestyle, not beautiful enough to attract people on it’s own merits?
Finally. Sitalatma wrote. “but are they embracing Krishna prasadam”. They would willingly embrace Krishna prasadam, that is not made of animal products. The better question might be. ‘Am I compassionate enough, to make it for them?’.
Sitalatma also wrote, “like ordinary people do”..My God. When I joined I was considered anything but ordinary. Should I not have joined because the devotees were not ordinary? What is “ordinary” Sitalatma? Should we apply your personal, definition of ordinary to all who visit our temples, and reject those who don’t fit your criteria?
The irony of some of the arguments,is that they are often the exact same childish ones, meat eaters, use against Vegetarians. Like this one.”if we all stop eating meat, wouldn’t the animals over run us?” To which my standard answer is. 1.’ Don’t worry, unfortunately, the entire population will never stop eating meat,’ and 2.’ Yea, the cows will break out of their factory farms, grab their machine guns and kill us all.’ Let’s grow up, and realize that Vedic, cow-sustained farms can (and probably will) co-exist with Vegans. They are not mutually exclusive. There is no need to attack or disenfranchise Vegans from KC.
Where are the sustainable eco-friendly Iskcon cow-protection farms?
The author of this article writes: “I have not actually been able to find a Vegan producing farmstyle that is sustainable and eco friendly that actually follows its credentials. All of the Vegans that I know just shop at supermarkets, their local grocer, a farm shop producing “organic” vegetables and etc.”
The same could be said about Iskcon farms i.e. I have not been able to find an Iskcon cow protection farm that is sustainable. All of the devotees that I know just shop at supermarkets, etc.
Case in point: I was involved in fund raising for an Iskcon farm in the late 1970’s. It had a thriving community and a magnificent commercial dairy herd. The problem was that in order to survive the community and the dairy herd required the support of collections from a team of brahmacaries who lived outside the farm on a bus. Now, forty years later, the farm’s grand commercial dairy is gone, devotees are employed outside the farm, and donations to support cow protection are solicited on the website. To my knowledge this is the situation facing all Iskcon farms.
Service on Iskcon farms is of course bhakti so there is nothing wrong with collecting donations etc. but if a collective farm requires the support of donations and outside employment to survive can it honestly be called a sustainable farm?
So practice what you preach. Create a truly sustainable eco-friendly cruelty free commercial dairy farm that can supply abundant milk to everyone and then implore vegans to drink the cruelty free milk that you offer.
Until then let vegans be vegans, and preach the philosophy of Mahaprabhu and live it such that persons attracted to adopting a cruelty free diet will also be attracted to chanting the holy name of Krsna.
AGAIN: The practice of Vaisnavism goes perfectly well with a cruelty free vegan diet.
Brahma dasa
That is not what embracing means, it’s cherry picking, it also means some of Krishna prasadam will be rejected.
I think it was clear what “ordinary people” means in this context – meat eaters, and there was nothing in my comment about rejecting non-ordinary visitors.
My question still remains – we know that ordinary people can easily embrace Krishna prasadam without any ideological or philosophical objections. What is the success rate with vegans finally deciding to accept milk because it’s Krishna prasadam?
The following is a straw man argument, please feel free to explain how it is wrong:
Vegans do not believe in Krishna’s ability to purify offered food of all karma and they do not believe that prasadam has any transcendental qualities, they view offering food as a quaint and harmless religious custom, nothing else, ie they don’t believe in Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead at all, they put their own understanding of morality above philosophy of Krishna consciousness.
How often vegans are able to overcome this attitude, which I believe really exists?
There are so many things that can potentially go wrong with this. Recently I came across an interesting quote by a Catholic, the essence of it sums up my personal concerns very well:
“For over forty years, the vast majority of Catholic parishes have tilted the celebration of the Mass in a manner that was thought to stimulate God’s Really Awesome People. The Church, according to cultural trends, needed to be a more welcoming and friendly place. So we placed greeters at the doors, and, just in case we were not welcomed enough the first time, we are then invited by the lector to greet our fellow pew-mates before Mass begins. The music melody and attendant instruments are also intended to appeal to us, not God, so that the celebration may feel meaningful for us, the worshippers. Whether God, the object of worship, will be satisfied by our selections is not even given a thought.”
sitalatma das prabhu… you have focused this nicely.
If a vegan comes to the temple and is handed a laddu off the Lord’s plate and he refuses it, he is not seeing prasadam as prasadam first; he is seeing it as something mundane first. I remember maha falling on a very dirty floor and being eager to scoop it up in my hands and eat it up immediately, feeling fortunate. I remember hearing how, who was it….Tamal krsna’s widow?? eagerly swallowed the contents of Prabhupada’s spittoon (she has more transcendental vision than I). That way of, how you say… unconditionally accepting prasada is a blissful, transcendental state that you cannot have if you must first pause and say “is there milk in it?” Putting mundane considerations first, keeps you out of that wonderful transcendental zone that even someone like me has been given glimpses into. Having some vegan dishes does not solve the problem.
But, someone who is engaged in bhakti yoga before becoming vegan can be vegan outside the temple yet still be eager and accepting of all prasadam in the temple. A person may not buy milk themselves but can still see prasadam as prasadam first.
However, if a person is vegan before coming in contact with devotees, then the problem of not being able to appreciate prasadam and have access to the transcendental vision, is more probable, and a problem. One kind of vegan believes milk is unfit for humans, and that’s bad. It could be hard for them to really want to know and worship Someone Who is a cowherd and loves to steal butter and loves milk sweets, and is so into cows. Being this kind of vegan may actually harden their heart when it comes to krsna.
But a new person who is a vegan because they can’t stand cow torture is different. They will take milk prasada. But only if a temple is conscious of where it gets its milk. And why shouldn’t it be? If you say, this is where we get our milk, see the pictures, nice farm, cows protected, happy cows, the problem is solved. This vegan debate may be krsna’s way of helping us see that we must become more conscious of where we get our milk. We must make strides toward cow protection. He wants milk, we have to get it. But if we can accept that we can’t get it from factory farms at present we must DO something if we are going to offer it and have it.
Big farms are a problem. Little farms are better. Or maybe somehow positively influencing present farms.
ys klh
Once again –you can get alot of milk that is not gained from cow torture or cruel means–I see alot of vanity in the pro-vegan posts here,much like I have seen in the past on secular vegan sites.
Finally–what did Srila Pabhupada have to say about milk? Do we choose to ignore Him?
I still am surprised at the answers here, and why some people are going to such lengths to prove that Vegans “don’t believe in Krishna’s ability to purify food. Don’t/won’t appreciate prasadam” etc.
Sitalatma wrote. “My question still remains – we know that ordinary people can easily embrace Krishna prasadam without any ideological or philosophical objections. What is the success rate with vegans finally deciding to accept milk because it’s Krishna prasadam?”
Don’t know the success rate. It would probably be higher if people didn’t seem to have such an anti vegan agenda. For God’s sake., They are avoiding killing animals and eating animal products, out of compassion. Can’t we be like Prabhupada, and see the positive in that. Perhaps if we were to encourage that, and be appreciative, we might have a better job of explaining the concept of prasadam.
Sitalatma wrote “Vegans do not believe in Krishna’s ability to purify offered food of all karma and they do not believe that prasadam has any transcendental qualities, they view offering food as a quaint and harmless religious custom, nothing else, ie they don’t believe in Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead at all, they put their own understanding of morality above philosophy of Krishna consciousness.” Again, unless you are the Ishvara in the heart of every vegan, how can you make such a judgemental statement, that seems to be impersonalism. It again put a few million people together, ascribes the same beliefs, motivations, etc to them. And it doesn’t take into account their individuality. That’s what the Nazis did with the Jews. No wonder Vegans would be turned off, when a similar judgemental attitude is displayed, by the Spiritual people who are supposed to be compassionate. By the very people who are claiming “you’re not the body, you’re not protestant, Catholic, vegan?” etc.
So what of the many older devotees ( often Sanyassi’s) I have seen, who, now in poor health, eat mostly vegetables and fruit. Are they guilty of this maha apparadha of not seening prasadam as transcendental ?
According to Hari Sauri, an argument arose between devotees, who said everyone should eat the prasadam, regardless of if it was stale or had fallen on the floor, and those who refused to do so. Prabhupada answered. “let those whose have that realization take it, and let those who have the different realization not. He didn’t try to force anyone, and as always was accepting, compassionate and tolerant.
So why push your higher realizations on the rest of us lower vegans. Why not just appreciate the service I do, and the simple choice I make to eat the healthier parts of prasadam ? Once in India as a young devotee, I went on parikrama. Hearing the transcendental glories of a holy well, that Krishna dug, I drank a lot from it. I was sure, that the water being transcendental, the problems of drinking Indian water, would not effect me. I got an almost immediate reaction and nearly dehydrated over the next 3 days, as I continually threw up. My realization, was obviously not up to par, with my action. Would you drink a cup of water from every holy well in Vrindavana ? If not, could you be accused of “Putting mundane considerations first, keeps you out of that wonderful transcendental zone that even someone like me has been given glimpses into.”
I’m sure I read somewhere in the SB that Krishna was absolute. He was non different from his picture, his food or his name. Is it possible that the real lack of spiritual vision, is from those who possibly see, non milk prasadam, a vegan eats, as being different and less effective from milk prasadam? Is it possible, the attack on vegans is partly due to seeing the arrogance, that a smug vegan can have, reflected back at us? As he argues the absolute correctness of his position. Thinking himself superior to devotees. There are some vegans, who can be righteous and who are condescending. It comes with the territory. just look at our own early devotional life, ( or even current one) and remember how arrogant we could be.
Finally,I thought I read in the SB, that there were 9 processes of devotional service. The performance of even a “single one” can bring the practitioner to perfection. So what to speak of a vegan, who comes to the temple and performs all 9, but just avoids milk products ? Will he not advance? Do we really believe that simply smelling the flowers alone, (without prasadam) can bring perfection? Does it not display a huge lack of faith in the holy name, to assume that the one ‘flaw’ of eating vegan, will stop him advancing? Is it not the 5th offense? Why risk being so petty and vindictive? The holy name will save us all, vegan and non vegan. Let’s not risk chasing compassionate souls away, for reasons that may have a lot more to do with our false ego, than genuine compassion and spirituality. I hope I haven’t hurt anyone’s feeling too much with these posts, and you can see my point of view.
On a lighter note. I had a laugh at the choice of words for the first line of the original article.
“After having received a healthy feedback from my original article I thought it necessary to write another article.”
Was the feedback healthy, or were the people giving the feedback healthy? Perhaps due to their dietary choices :)
Anyway, try not to get too upset, if my opinions don’t match yours. Or if my questions are a little uncomfortable or pointed. The debate, if respectful, is healthy. I am aware that some vegans can be so arrogant and self righteous. I’m aware that a proud attitude like that, could, and probably would slow down that particular vegan’s spiritual advancement.
But it is not necessarily brought on by their dietary choice, as the same attitude exists in millions of people, vegan or not. it’s not an attitude exclusive to vegans. I just strongly dispute the conclusion, that being vegan bars one from spiritual advancement. Automatically makes one arrogant, or indeed, that one can attach the same motivations and beliefs to an entire group, based on any one thing, particularly their ahimsa diet.
The real subject here is cows. Krsna and cows go together. The Lord of our hearts is always connected with cows.
Our Srimad Bhagavatam tells us over and over that krsna, comes to give protection to the brahmanas and the cows. Krsna is the prime protector of brahminical culture and the cow. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is go-brahmana-hitaya ca…He is always very kind to cows and brahmanas. “therefore, one who worships Govinda must satisfy Him by worshipping the brahmanas and cows.” “Mah. Pariksit and the Pandavas were fully conscious of the importance of cow and bull, and they were prepared to punish the cow-killer with all chastisment…” “For protecting the cows and brahminical culture, the Lord, who is very kind to the cow and the brahmanas, will be pleased with us and will bestow upon us real peace.” Cow slaughter is”responsible for all the troubles in present society.” The Lord “manifests His different transcendental activities for the welfare of the twice-born, the cows, and the demigods.” and on and on and on.
I would beg those against vegans to meditate on how dear cows are to the Lord. You may not feel they are dear to you, but the Lord says “the brahmanas, the cows, and the defenseless creatures are my own body.” If you can say, oh yah, you can get lots of milk from untortured cows, ignoring the fact that most cows are treated in a way that would get the handlers killed by the king in other ages, then your heart is nothing but a stone.
I would beg those who think it is good to be vegan, in and of itself, to meditate on how dear cows are to krsna. If you divorce yourself from cows altogether your first priority may not be protecting them. Prabhupada did say, “This krsna conscious movement is for the protection of brahminical culture and cows. Then automatically the peace of the world will come, if two things are done.”
Mayavadis of Lord Chaitanya’s time also avoided killing animals, and Lord Chaitanya avoided mayavadis. In Prabhupada’s time there were plenty of philanthropists who built hospitals and distributed food, out of compassion, and Prabhupada avoided them, too. He never gave any credit to compassion of those who refuse to become devotees and surrender to Krishna. Why should we?
Several times here vegans were compared to people who can’t take certain food because of their health or body conditions. These two are nothing alike. There’s nothing wrong with accommodating lactose intolerant people just as there’s nothing wrong with cooking less spicy food in Western countries. Same with sick people – their diets are born of necessity, not choice.
Vegans, however, are not going to get allergic reactions to milk and no one would spend three days in the bathroom after eating a bowl of sweet rice at ISKCON temple. The only damage vegans would sustain is to their precious philosophy. They CAN take milk prasadam but they refuse it to pamper their egos.
Do not compare them to Dhruva Maharaja either, it’s ridiculous.
By demanding/expecting/insisting/appreciating clearly marked vegan prasadam they are trying to convert us, to convince us that their view deserves consideration and support and that we should accommodate their ideology.
Their ideology is wrong – the only compassionate gesture towards tortured and mistreated cows is to offer their milk to the Lord, cows do not have any other purpose, they exist for the pleasure of Krishna and it’s actually violence to deny them that service. It might look like compassion on the material platform but it’s violence. Offering their milk would bring them untold benefits in their future lives, and it would bring a lot of ajnata sukriti to their caretakers, however cruel, too.
>>
One can achieve all perfection by engaging in only one process of devotional service but perfection means that one must give up his anarthas. Veganism is an anartha, a thing without value that we are being attached to. I believe all of us know that if you are not actively trying to cleanse yourself from your anarthas you can chant for a very long time without any progress.
Dealing with anarthas is a sensitive matter, most of the time they need to be engaged in service before they go away, but there’s a gulf of difference between purifying anarthas and actively encouraging them, which is what pro-vegan argument ultimately does.
Comment 30
You said: “Mayavadis of Lord Chaitanya’s time also avoided killing animals, and Lord Chaitanya avoided mayavadis. In Prabhupada’s time there were plenty of philanthropists who built hospitals and distributed food, out of compassion, and Prabhupada avoided them, too.”
I don’t see the connection. Are you labeling all who abstain from dairy as “mayavadis”? Maybe a misunderstanding of what is Mayavada/impersonal is present here, as with many devotees.
“Those who accept all spiritual objects as illusion, think that Brahman is beyond illusion, the Supreme Controller is affected by illusion, and that the bodies of the Lord’s incarnations illusory are Mayavadis.”
“They say that the functions of maya are present in the living entities’ constitution. In other words, the living entities’ false egos are created by maya.”
“Therefore they think that when the living entities are liberated, they do not remain in an individual state as pure living entities.”
“They also teach that after liberation, the living entities become one with Brahman.”
(Bhaktivinoda Thakur’s Commentary on Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.29)
“Mayavadis engage in the worship of 5 gods: Durga, Surya, the sun-god, Ganapati, Siva, and Vishnu. At first, there is the material energy (under the control of Durga), then appears the sun, which induces action in the material energy, then appears Ganesa (Ganapati), who confirms the existence of consciousness. Then appears Lord Siva, who is perceived as all-pervading, and finally, Lord Vishnu is served. He is the Supersoul, saccidananda, incomparable, and beyond the reach of ordinary living entities. From a doubtful person to a learned scholar of spiritual topics, all are eligible to worship the Para Brahman. The symptom of actual worship is to make advancement on the path of raga. One should therefore worship the Supreme Lord, who is saccidananda and the controller of all living entities. However, if one remains entangled in other processes of worship, one will never achieve the goal of life.”
(Bhaktivinoda Thakur – Tattva-sutra 47)
We’re talking about devotees, who by inspiration & influence of paramatma/antaryami, for whatever reason, adopt a vegan diet. These 2 articles are not really about non-bhaktas promoting veganism without awareness of antaryami. This article is ultimately voiced towards devotees, and is an embarrassment on many levels.
continued….
The vision this article, and like comments, demonstrate is a very elementary understanding of tattva. The ultimate reality is that everyone and everything is comprised of and controlled by God, aikatmyam mahā-ātmani, therefore we should see that the real cause of everyone’s actions is the will of God.
Krishna is the ultimate controlling principle, therefore he is the actual cause of all causes. That vision is for everyone’s own good because by that vision one can transcend anger (by seeing God in control of people’s actions) and one can actually come to see and commune with God through everything they experience because God is in control of everything they experience.
So, if you surrender to the supreme control of Para Brahman (Isvara), you will not have some axe to grind with “vegans”, or anyone else for that matter.
Brahma Samhita 5.1: “Kṛṣṇa who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.”
…even veganism.
This discussion has run its course but there are some loose ends left:
“…unless you are the Ishvara in the heart of every vegan, how can you make such a judgemental statement…”
“… if you surrender to the supreme control of Para Brahman (Isvara), you will not have some axe to grind with “vegans”, or anyone else for that matter…”
In our tradition we must learn to discern between vaishnava and avaishnava behavior as well as differentiate between various classes of devotees, therefore judgments are necessary. Generalizations are also unavoidable in any discussion.
Our acharyas never invoked “not surrendered enough” reason to avoid smashing all kins of misconceptions. They never said “I don’t have an axe to grind” with apa sampradayas, mayavadis, sahajiyas and all other deviants.
I’m just trying to follow their footsteps.
The gist of the article is that vegans do not propose any viable, sustainable alternatives to cow based Vedic agriculture.
Solar powered tractors is not an alternative, and neither is raising cows for their manure but not for plowing the land. I googled around a bit and so far all vegan farms I found are not much more than glorified vegetable patches. They don’t grow rice or wheat or any grains and if they do they use tractors. They think using tractors is better than exploiting bulls.
Finally, following Bbd’s logic in comment #31, I’m not the one responsible for my comments either – they appear “by inspiration & influence of paramatma/antaryami, for whatever reason.”
Let’s tie up the loose ends. Maybe we should tie up, anyone who disagrees with us, in any way, as well.
“In our tradition we must learn to discern between vaishnava and avaishnava behavior as well as differentiate between various classes of devotees, therefore judgments are necessary.”
For me, it’s not so black and white, but then I would appear to be in the lower class of devotees.
“Generalizations are also unavoidable in any discussion.”
This is another generalization, that seems to blindly imposes someone’s limited vision of the truth on everyone. I’ve been in many discussions where generalizations were avoided, by some very thoughtful participants. You may want to say, after many of your points. “I’m speaking for myself, but I’m again assuming I’m the paramatma, and will state my relative understanding and vision, of the truth, as absolute.”
“Our acharyas never invoked “not surrendered enough” reason to avoid smashing all kins of misconceptions. They never said “I don’t have an axe to grind” with apa sampradayas, mayavadis, sahajiyas and all other deviants.” “I’m just trying to follow their footsteps.”
Oh, I’ve heard that one so many times before. In almost every case, the ‘follower’, was using the philosophy, and the attempt to follow, or preach, partially as a shield, which they hid their false ego behind. Yes, we can use philosophy as a battering ram, to batter our fellow devotees and humans, into our (absolutely correct) way of seeing things.
We can hide behind Prabhupada and use him as justification, for our anger, pride and arrogance. We can use him as an excuse to avoid compassion or be impersonal. “I’m following in his footsteps.”
Well, as Prabhupada said, about the Saivites. “If you can drink an ocean of poison, then you can smoke ganja.”
So too, if you can invoke the great compassion that Prabhupada had. If you can sincerely see everyone, as pure spirit, without your ego and the modes getting involved, you can preach, in that heavy way.
I’m not arguing with the principal of preaching clearly, without watering things down. Just with the non compassionate and angry way it comes across to me, and my vegan friends. You may well be the current or next Bhaktivedanta in waiting, but you don’t come across like that. And the heavy preaching of Prabhupada, minus, the extreme compassion he showed (as he looked at people, seeing them only as pure spirit soul.) usually falls flat, when imitated by people swimming in the modes.
“but perfection means that one must give up his anarthas. Veganism is an anartha, a thing without value that we are being attached to.”
So you don’t play football? You don’t bring your kids to the movies? You don’t watch any TV or any movies, or read any newspapers? You never eat out in restaurants? You follow all 4 principles very strictly?
We might want to pull the plank out of our own eye, before we spend useless time chasing those demoniac vegans for the anartha off “compassion.”
“By demanding/expecting/insisting/appreciating clearly marked vegan prasadam they are trying to convert us, to convince us that their view deserves consideration and support and that we should accommodate their ideology.”
Again, are you for real? If you really feel your faith is that threatened, you may want to consider living in the woods. I’ve been in many devotee restaurants, that had clearly marked vegan foods. This was done, out of compassion, to give those souls, with that “anartha” the chance to eat prasadam. Something you apparently wouldn’t do. If your faith is strengthened, you will no longer feel this fear. You may come to the conclusion, that when Bhaktisidanta said “he would serve meat, to make devotees.” He probably wouldn’t have, but he was placing the principle of attracting souls to Krishna, way above any smarta Brahman considerations. Now, I’ve a feeling, that if he was willing to say that, he would have no problem serving vegan prasadam, if that’s the only simple step it took to bring these souls to Krishna.
So many times you make statements about Mayavadis etc, and your perception of Prabhupada’s attitude towards them, and then use it to justify your attitude to vegans. Again you’re no Prabhupada. These are not bewildered Indian Mayavadis. You interpret these actions, as justifications, for your belief about vegans. They appear to reflect your anger, which is raja. And it appears to be disguised or misunderstood as KC ( your words do come across to me as angry) It’s possible that you may be putting your ego and your interpretations above the essence of his mission.
I asked you a number of questions. Some of which, I don’t believe you really answered directly. So here goes again.
1. How do you know what is in the heart of every vegan? I thought only paramatama knows this?
2. As what you claim to be the motivation for every vegan, does not apply to me, or numerous friends I have, Do you then believe me to be a liar?
3. “The only damage vegans would sustain is to their precious philosophy. They CAN take milk prasadam but they refuse it to pamper their egos.”
How do you know, for certain, that 2 or 3 million vegans don’t take milk for the same reason? And again am I and my friends all liars, if we honestly say, that is not our reason for taking it?
4. Do you think you might have ulterior motives, that don’t necsssarily involve the good of all living entities, in your motivation for some of your statements?
For me, the main reason I write, is to try and explain the position of vegans, and to point out the inaccuracies and untruths that have been attributed to me, and them.
I don’t really want to change your belief about milk etc. I feel you’re entitled to it, and if it works for you, that’s great. I don’t want to change the vedic model of cow farming, or water down the essence of what Prabhupada said. In fact, I would say, that preaching compassionately, and getting souls to eat prasadam is much more the essence of his teachings.
I do believe that this type of ‘preaching’ is very counterproductive to the stated goals of Prabhupada, and I would like to influence those who argue this way, by giving them food for thought.( offered ‘food for thought’, that is.)
I hope that you will reconsider writing and speaking in the manner presented above. I believe that it is quite possible, that the desire to win the argument, and the egotistical desire to protect, (often) badly researched beliefs, is getting in the way of true compassion. My main desire, is to see these vegans attracted to KC. And I think the above article, and many of the above comments would have the opposite effect. So please consider, if your desire to win, and beat that ‘anartha’ out of those demoniac vegans, is based on compassion, or ignorance and pride.
You can judge this, by the results of your ‘preaching’. And the results of Gunagrahi Maharaj’s preaching to straight edge kids in the 90’s. Many of the kids were hard core vegans and many joined or took up K.C. I don’t believe, his initial preaching involved smashing that “anartha”.
This will be my last post, i have found it to be very interesting, i cannot get round what is around us in everyday life, milk is for the new life of animals up to a certain age depending on species, and humans are non different, i was at a meeting at Leicester Temple a few years ago, sat next to a Matergi, when she suddenly lifted her sari to breast feed her daughter who must have been at least six or seven, i found this confusing to say the least, to end if Iskscon must have milk, have it only from our own well looked after cows. Hari Bol!
Srila Prabhupada says devotees should establish brahminical culture and that brahminical culture is dependent on milk and cow protection.
However, Srila Prabhupada’s books are for people to keep reading way way into the future. This conversation about cow protection really will be more pertinent sometime in the future. As long as civilization is arranged with most people living in big cities and also with ability to run machines such as cars and planes and tractors, there will never be cow protection the way devotees envision it–that is, using oxen to plow. There is zero chance of converting present food production set ups from tractors to oxen. Zero. For real cow protection to work, civilization needs to be arranged in towns and villages, with people depending on local, small farming. That means lots and lots of farmers. So in all probability, we will have to wait for either a mass change in mentality–that is, people willingly abandoning cities, or a big war or plague or something that destroys cities.
I read an article written by a farmer about what he would do if suddenly there was no gas for his tractor. He would use 2 horses he said. (Of course, there’s a new problem for devotees…horses are a whole lot easier to handle than oxen…have any of you tried plowing with oxen? I’ve only seen it done a little, and it’s not something i could personally accomplish). To feed the 2 horses would take about 30% of his 20 acre farm. It takes him 25 hours to prepare 10 acres with his 55 horsepower tractor; it would take approximately 150 hours to do the same work with the horses. He estimated his output would drop 50% and his labor costs would go up significantly, so that his prices would go up 400%. This is all on a little farm of 20 acres…for the humungous farms where one person on a humungous tractor thing tills zillions of acres, well…I mean, get real.
Why don’t devotees have little farms all over the place and have cows and oxen? Because it’s your whole life, and a very hard life at that. Devotees mostly want to stay in cities with everyone else, and preach about krsna, not work hard all day to get enough food to eat.
So having oxen plow is an ideal, but better to focus on harinam to change people’s hearts so they eventually opt for simple living in towns rather than cities, once that happens then real cow protection can happen.
Perhaps the best outcome of this discussion is a tacit admittance that veganism is an anartha in the same class as watching TV or shopping.
Accidentally, that would also explain long and passionate posts in the defense of this attachment. Try to take teenager’s phone away and see how irrationality ensues.
As for Vedic style farms – it’s a catch 22 situation. You can’t start a farm without people and people won’t come unless there’s a farm. Not the first time that happens and usually these things work out themselves one way or another, no reason to panic. Where there is a a will there is a way.
As far as I know, for every person working on a modern farm there are twenty five mouths to feed. This is clearly an unsustainable ratio. I don’t have numbers for varnashrama but, perhaps, it should be one brahmana serving twenty five vaishyas and shudras, not the other way around.
Keeping up with modern day grain production without tractors is impossible and is actually against varnashrama goals, ie varnashrama is not meant to free people for “pursuit of happiness” elsewhere, industrial revolution or sitting eight hours in a cubicle.
“Perhaps the best outcome of this discussion is a tacit admittance that veganism is an anartha in the same class as watching TV or shopping.
Accidentally, that would also explain long and passionate posts in the defense of this attachment. Try to take teenager’s phone away and see how irrationality ensues.”
Very funny Sitalatma. Nice to see some humor.
But like many other remarks or arguments, I’ve seen in this discussion, it simply brushes off many of the relevant facts and does not answer the questions asked. It’s akin to asking an evolutionist, to explain the gaps in that theory, and then have him answer with a funny comment like. “Well obviously none of us monkeys are capable of explaining evolution to you intelligent humans.” It’s a funny comment. However it also tries to throw the other side on the defensive, with a paternalistic tone, that suggests all their thoughtful, genuine, sincere, arguments are based on childish irrationality.
Anyway good luck on trying to take away your teenager’s phone, if and when that may happen in your household. You may find that teenagers are adept at spotting the hypocrisy of their parents. While we can get away with a wonderful external projection to the world at large, it falls flat when we try to do so with our teens. They’ve lived with us, and have seen all the ugly anarthas, and lies, we may try to hide. They know when we’re B.S.ing (appropriate term for this discussion :) They’ve seen us, when the masks down, and know when we’re saying something, we ‘want to project to the world’, that we believe, but in reality we don’t believe. I do appreciate your humor though.
No, sitalatma prabhu, you have it wrong. The best outcome of any conversation between devotees is to feel enlivened and grateful for the association. The best outcome is to learn to see things from other devotees’ perspective so as to widen your own understanding. In a debate between devotees, if you are going to hold on to your original position as if holding onto the railing of a ship in rough weather, if your goal is to “win,” then you have missed your opportunity for purification, and not only is it a waste of time for you, but you must hope you have not offended someone whom you know not.
your servant, klh
I have not read all the lengthy comments. Sorry for butting in…
The main point is that we should focus our attention on implementing cow protection. Unfortunately, few persons understand the importance of cow protection. A cruelty-free diet is but a natural by-product of this ancient, but now forgotten, art of cow protection. EVERY ISKCON MEMBER SHOULD HAVE A PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF ALL THE POSITIVE CONTRIBUTIONS OF COW PROTECTION. If you don’t, do your homework. And if you can’t do anything to help implement cow protection, at least show some support.
Thank you to the author of this article for kindling another discussion on the importance of cow protection.
Your servant,
Damodar Gopal das
PS: Sorry for having all the text in bold. It was a way to get your attention. I hope it worked. :)
Yes, damodar gopal prabhu, you’re correct in sensing that yelling at people is not a good way to get attention, but anyway…
First, implementing cow protection means devotees living committedly on farms. Not many devotees are up for the hard labor of working oxen, fixing fences, building barns, and etc. etc. It’s HARD work. Most devotees would rather directly preach about krsna by distributing books, harinam, prasadam distribution, etc. etc. So there seems to always be a labor shortage problem.
Second, most people will not see the practicality in switching from tractors to oxen. I was actually sad to read in an iscowp newsletter (and certainly there is no one in iskcon more dedicated to cow protection than balabhadra prabhu and chayadevi) that you cannot run a cow protection program as you would a commercial dairy–that is, that it is only killing that makes a dairy a viable business in today’s world. “Cow protection is not a profit making business. That is why your adoption donation is so important.” So how do you preach to the world to adopt our system if we cannot work out a way for it to turn a profit, or even exist without outside donations?
Interestingly, i also ran across this in an article written for a recent iscowp newsletter :
Since it’s not possible to get cruelty free dairy products from conventional sources, the folks who run the ISCOWP farm are vegans unless one of their cows has a calf, in which case they’ll accept the mother cow’s milk.
You cannot reject milk from the human society.
Lecture — Los Angeles, December 4, 1968:
So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very scientific movement. Unless you raise the population from the animal propensities, how you can expect peace? Do you think is there any peace in the dog society, in the cat society? No, it is not possible. You keep some dogs. They meet. As soon as they meet together there will be howling—”gow, gow, gow, gow.” So you cannot expect if you create dog society, then you cannot expect. You have to create a portion, a certain percentage of the population, brāhmaṇas. Then there is possibility. Just like in the sky the numerical strength of the stars are greater, but there is one moon. That one moon is sufficient to illuminate the sky. Ekaś candras tamo hanti na ca tara sahasrasaḥ. Millions of millions of stars twinkling, they cannot dissipate the darkness. You see. Only one moon, only one sun. So try to make some percentage of the population actually brāhmaṇa. Go-brāhmaṇa-hitāya ca. And protect the cows. Actually, we are taking so much advantages. So from the cows, the milk. And from the milk we can make hundreds of vitaminous foodstuff, hundreds. They’re all palatable. So such a nice animal, faithful, peaceful, and beneficial. After taking milk from it, if we kill, does it look very well? Even after the death, the cows supply the skin for your shoes. It is so beneficial. You see. Even after death. While living, he gives you nice milk. You cannot reject milk from the human society. As soon as there is a child born, milk immediately required. Old man, milk is life. Diseased person, milk is life. Invalid, milk is life. So therefore Kṛṣṇa is teaching by His practical demonstration how He loves this innocent animal, cow. So human society should develop brahminical culture on the basis of protecting cows. The brāhmaṇa cannot take any other food except it is made of milk preparation. That develops the finer tissues of the brain. You can understand in subtle matters, in philosophy, in spiritual science. Just like in a scientific college, not ordinary man can understand the scientific intricacies. They require some preliminary qualification to enter into the scientific college. They require some preliminary qualification to enter into the law college, in the postgraduate classes. Similarly, to understand the subtle or finer implications of spiritual science, one has to become brāhmaṇa. Without becoming brāhmaṇa it is not possible.
Yes puskaraksa prabhu, devotees agree that milk is important and that krsna loves cows and that cow protection is the ideal. The question is how to make that a reality…the cow protection. Apparently right now big dairies that supply almost all the milk make enough money to continue ONLY by selling the male calves for slaughter (either as calves or grown up) and by impregnating cows so often that they are spent by age 5 or 7. Then after a very lousy life (many of whom don’t make it until 5 years) they also are sent to slaughter. If you take away the profit from selling all male calves for slaughter, overworking and abusing cows to get the milk, and sending to slaughter cows at the age of 5, then you go out of business. That’s the reality today.
Then the other half of cow protection is working the oxen. No farmer out there is going to listen to you as long as they have a tractor available. Look at the pictures of gita nagari–it’s not oxen, it’s tractors, and we’re supposed to be the example.
So please, instead of telling us how important milk is, which we all already know, put your mind to how how how how are we going to show the world that cow protection is viable and preferable. Forget for a moment the benefits of milk and concentrate on cows, their safety, their protection.
ys, klh
Klh Prabhu: “Yes, damodar gopal prabhu, you’re correct in sensing that yelling at people is not a good way to get attention, but anyway…”
I was a little taken aback by your comment which I thought rude, but after discussing with my wife, she told me that according to text convention when you write everything in bold it means you are yelling. I did not know that. Sorry for my ignorance. It was not my intention.
I usually do not read or take part in such discussions on the internet. I think I learned my lesson now. Adios Prabhus.
Dear Damodar Gopal Prabhu
I am sorry you heard my words as rude, and i am most sorry that you do not discuss on the internet and that i have further discouraged you… I wouldn’t have brought up your bold and cap message except that you brought it up in your p.s.–hoping “it worked.” I was answering that. For me it did not work as well as if you had relied on your intelligent words…. and it is too bad you say adios instead of helping us to understand the “art of cow protection.” If you know how to make it work, please tell us your thoughts.
your servant, klh