By Gadi das
Our divine society is indeed making good efforts to give Krishna and His Vrindavan to the world. But the process is seemingly slow and troublesome. If we give our interpersonal relationships a reasonable study, one could conclude that the internal arguing and pointing of well intended fingers have only caught the “innocent non-devotees”, whom we are trying to attract, in the crossfire. The interested publicians are not without detection faculties to easily perceive the contradictions between our sweet statements and the gross reality of the disrespect of one group or one individual toward another.
I don’t believe that this is the love and trust process envisioned by his Divine Grace. In fact the ease with which we render criticism of each other is unwarranted in the history of Vaisnavism. Having the tools at our fingertips, one can easily destroy the credibility of very sincere devotees, giving their earnest best to spread Lord Caitanya’s message. It is this critical self-defeating behavior, nay, practically life style that is giving everyone trepidation, creating a wall of offence between ourselves and Krsna’s mercy. From the non-devotees on up to the initiating gurus, (with varying qualifications), who in effect have laid their future spiritual lives on the line, this offence is crippling the forward movement of this movement.
Srila Prabhupada has stated many times and many places of the acceptable humble attitude we must have… we have nothing to offer except our humble service, how small we and our service are, and how unlimited is Sri Krishna.
If we don not fully imbibe the Hari Nam Sankirtan spirit, and dive into it’s limitless depths, we will find ourselves reading the Sishastika prayers with at best a poetic eye, not knowing how or even if it is possible to feel lower than the straw in the street or more tolerant than the tree, devoid, free from any desire for prestige and ready , completely ready to give all respects to all others.
IN TRUTH the divine gift of heartfelt Hari Nam can bring the soul to complete surrender…..the realization of the complete futility and hopelessness of this material world. Hari Nam Prabhu can bestow this—the utter waste of what we call our lives, and at this point bring tears to our inner and outer eyes as we see the highest truth of Krsna consciousness. At this point our actual relationship with the Supreme Lord is reestablished.
In this humble state of mind one can no longer criticize others., find fault, or engage in political or frivolous talks.etc . One is now fully ready to offer respects to all others, bringing no attention to oneself. THIS is the stage of pure relationships with each other. A milestone of genuine interaction has evolved, enabling us to work together for the benefit of human society with revolutionary effectiveness.
It is my arrogance and lack of humility that allows me to believe this to be possible. To create a society free from envy….Somehow I feel it must be attempted, and this is the passion that is Murari’s Kirtan Valley.
If you should feel that you have been sufficiently trampled (straw), and somehow survived,(tolerant) if you feel that your life is useless(no false prestige) and everyone elses is better than yours, (ready to offer all respect to others) you just might be a candidate foe Murari’s Kirtan Valley. You just might be at the perfect point to perform Hari Nam Sankirtana in a humble state of mind.
WHY CAN’T WE BE EXEMPLARY!? We just have to chant and sing the holy names with complete faith and root out the enemies within. Then, when Hari Nam Prabhu has conquered us, we will be ready, fearless, and unstoppable in our humble attempts to rescue all the others.!
Thanks for your precious time, your servant, Gadi das
talking about humility like this is beautiful. MKV sounds great. I hope one day I get to visit. I like the way you tell about your cows on your website, and how you introduce the devotees there. I enjoyed reading the history of krsna lunch also. So very nice. I hope radha and krsna bless you with fulfillment of your desire. Besides donations, is there anything anyone living far away can do for you? Thank you for your precious time.
ys, klh
Gadi das is one of many early friends and acquaintances who came from Gainesville, Florida into the Krishna consciousness movement. All shared sincerity to learn about Krishna, to serve Srila Prabhupad, and to develop the spiritual quality to please Sri Guru and Sri Krishna. Many untold sacrifices Gadi das and his family has made to live honest, tolerant and sincere lives. He has demonstrated high integrity in his life, and if every bhakta had that, there never would have been social issues in ISKCON in the past.
Now, I want to share with you a little saying to remember:
The most intelligent people discuss ideas (philosophers)
People of common intelligence discuss events (chewing the chewed)
The least intelligent talk about other people (gossip)
It is a good thing to remember. The exception is when we praise the qualities of Vaishnavas. The glorification of other Vaishnavas is most worthy, cures us of envy (the seed of material life), and pleases Krishna. As Srila Prabhupad used to say: Love me, love my dog. If you love Srila Prabhupad, love his disciples and followers.
Pusta Krishna das
pkp kinda puzzles me. I’m not sure if he’s agreeing with the article and saying yeah, we all need to focus on speaking nicely to and about each other and be exemplary, or if he’s also intimating that voicing a realization that some devotees may be creating a wall made of offenses between themselves and krsna’s mercy is…gossip? I read it from my materially contaminated state, so don’t see the correct meaning.
It came into my mind and i am trying to understand. PKP is a great soul so i try to understand. I know that the most intelligent people don’t discuss ideas, because that is impersonal. I don’t understand what i’m supposed to remember from the saying. I know there is a difference between talking rumors about someone behind their back (gossip) and talking directly to someone to try to help them. I wonder where to place saying to devotee friends, “I see you arguing with that other devotee, not being tolerant of his difference and his attempts at his devotional service, and it’s my humble opinion that this attitude that you are clinging to must be given up if we are to truly please krsna and get all His mercy” That statement is not about an idea, not about an event, and is not gossip. It is also not praising the devotee spoken to.
When we had the opportunity to associate with the “person” Srila Prabhupad, we could appreciate that his vision was through shastra. He showed us how to overcome the defects of the imperfect senses, the limited mind, and the changing situations. He likewise viewed us as spiritual servitors, overlooking our karmic pasts. Using the shastra as one’s eyeglasses, he demonstrated by example that one should try to overcome the defects of material consciousness with focused spiritualized vision. When one of us would say, “I think…”, then Srila Prabhupad would interrupt us immediately and chastise his disciples: “You think…what is the value of your thinking!?!” Really, you have to know that this is how His Divine Grace tried to train us, to see through the shastra, through Krishna’s teachings and the teachings of the great vaishnavas and mahajanas.
Even if one lives in a beautiful society of people who are like minded, but who are not Krishna conscious, such an association would be a curse. Afterall, what value does material happiness have to the soul? It is useless, and worse, may promote attachment to the material bag of water, bile, mucus, and air that we have as a material body.
Even with the challenges of social interaction within the Krishna conscious society, it is ideal if we help to remind one another of Krishna’s teachings. One becomes dear to Krishna by helping the fellow aspiring bhaktas to depend upon and surrender to Krishna.
The discussion of philosophy is not impersonal, however, unless one is an impersonalist. Searching for Krishna is to approach the greatest philosopher. Krishna acknowledges that both the path of knowledge and the path of action lead to the path of devotion, bhakti. Please try to appreciate that action with knowledge and devotion is bhakti. For example, when we consider that our senses are part and parcel of Krishna’s senses (hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate) then we understand that, as part and parcel of Krishna, God has expanded Himself to expand His divine transcendental pleasure. In this way, for instance, contemplation of ideas, philosophical existential truths, we can liberate our consciousness from mundane imprisonment. Krishna is genuinely our dearmost Friend, and He will help us from within, and from without. Hare Krishna.
Pusta Krishna das
“I know that the most intelligent people don’t discuss ideas, because that is impersonal.”
Okay, okay. the most intelligent worship Lord Caitanya by performing sankirtan.
But still, there is something to be said for distinguishing even impersonalist philosophers from ordinary, unphilosophical materialists.
The analytical study of the world and its elements, the distinction between matter and spirit, etc., is not actually separate from karma yoga, because one who achieves complete success in one of these two paths (sankhya and yoga) enjoys the results of both. That station one attains through philosophy is also attained through karma yoga, and therefore one who sees sankhya and yoga as one unit (two sides of the same coin) actually sees. However, renunciation without yoga is painful. A philosopher (sage) who is engaged in yoga, on the other hand, quickly achieves the transcendental position.
Four kinds of pious people surrender to Krsna: the distressed, those desiring wealth, the inquisitive, and the wise philosophers. Of the four, the wise are especially exalted. After many births pursuing philosophical knowledge, a very rare, great, wise sage understands “Vasudeva (Krishna) is everything” and surrenders to him.
Knowledge is glorified in Bhagavad-Gita. We should not be opposed to philosophy.
It is true that devotional service that is not mixed with the tendency toward philosophical speculation (or desire for merging in the impersonal Absolute) is more pure. However, as beginners we have to discuss philosophy of Bhagavad-Gita, to understand what is what, and to become detached from materialist exploitativeness.
I rather liked Pusta Krishna Prabhu’s aphorism. A true philosopher stands far above an ordinary materialist. And even an ordinary materialist stands above a low gossip.
Ideas are more important than events. An event is ephemeral. Some ideas may be more ephemeral than others, but true ideas are eternal. Finding the eternal and true ideas is the mission of thoughtful philosophers.
Granted, certain great sages and personified Vedas attained perfection by becoming gopis and dancing with Krishna. Still, we should not presume to feel superior to the sages and Upanisads. We are still ordinary humans. We can’t merely pretend to have advanced beyond the need for philosophical understanding. Also, without philosophy, how will we perform sankirtan? How will we attract the intelligentsia to Lord Caitanya?
Dear Gadi Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupa.
You wrote, “The interested publicians are not without detection faculties to easily perceive the contradictions between our sweet statements and the gross reality of the disrespect of one group or one individual toward another.” And then you say, “It is this critical self-defeating behavior, nay, practically life style that is giving everyone trepidation, creating a wall of offence between ourselves and Krsna’s mercy. From the non-devotees on up to the initiating gurus, (with varying qualifications), who in effect have laid their future spiritual lives on the line, this offence is crippling the forward movement of this movement.” In conclusion you invite people to your community if they are ready to give all respect to others.
My problem is that you have painted the, “non-devotees on up to the initiating gurus (with varying qualifications)” as having a lifestyle of self -defeating criticism. This is not giving all respect to others; rather, it is a criticism of the overall Movement. I do not see a lifestyle of disrespect among devotees that is, “giving everyone trepidation”, and crippling the Movement. The devotees I know, although not totally free from occasionall disagreements, have genuine, love, respect and gratitude for each other. I am sure you have reasons to see the Movement in the terms you have described and I appreciate that you are building a community that explicitly avoids this self -defeating criticism. But you have framed it in a way that paints your community into an us/ them corner because you have made a sweeping description of ISKCON as a place full of bickering and disrespect while inviting people to come the one place where this is not the case.
At the risk of being presumptuous, I suggest that you look for current examples of genuine love, trust, respect, etc., among devotees and frame Murari’s Kirtan Valley as an extension of the inner core spirit of ISKCON. In this way you tacitly disapprove of self -defeating criticism without framing your community as the one place in ISKCON where this is not the life style. This will save you from being another wave splashing in the ocean of us/them.
Akruranatha prabhu, surely you are correct that we should discuss the philosophy of Bhagavad-gita. My objection to the aphorism is that I would add:
the most most intelligent people discuss krsna.
Discussing “ideas” is so broad. Krsna is not exactly an idea. Talks about what krsna said, in the gita or wherever, is in my book subsuming the ideas He’s presenting within talk of Him. So in that case, ideas are palatable. There is a big difference between simply “discussing ideas” and discussing “krsna, and concomitantly the ideas directly related with Him and His service.”
And honestly, to me, if someone is gossiping about Derek Jeter, discussing the last yankee game, or discussing whether playing baseball turns you into a better person because of the discipline needed…it’s all the same to me; one is not higher than the other, even though on one level i know you can see it that way.
Pustakrsna prabhu. I know you are saying things rightly, but i feel such a disconnect due to your lack of plain directness. I know you are trying to put things nicely. Certainly you are right that living in mundane company that got along well would be hellish and boring and drudgery–unless you’re telling them about krsna, i suppose.
To me, the gist of gadi prabhu’s words is: We’ve distributed so many books, we’ve done so many harinams, we have the greatest most attractive wonderful splendorous amazing knowledge, we are intelligent, we have prasada, we have the greatest guru anyone could have…so why hasn’t krsna let us pull more souls to Him by now? Why do so many devotees leave the constant association with other devotees and complain? We’re starting to get old and we are not satisfied with the progress. Is krsna fully pleased with us? Are we desiring hard enough? Is there something we can do better?
And I like his answer to this question: humility is the key.
I myself am not a humble person, which is i suppose grossly evident, but I appreciate someone pointing it out to me. My question is, is it wrong to point it out as Gadi prabhu did? Sita rama prabhu says yes, it’s wrong. He seems to think devotees are giving much respect and love to each other. My experience is otherwise. And I agree with gadi prabhu that humility is the key. He has reminded me that i must work on it and i’m grateful.
Dear KrishnaLH,
Dandavats, Prabhu. All Glories to Srila Prabhupad. The aphorism I placed out there is simply a generalization. Please know that Srila Prabhupad did not ask us to accept blindly.
He frequently would set up debates where he would preface: “Lets put aside what Krishna has said,” and then would ask us to use critical analysis, observation, and the like, to assess reality. He wanted us to be philosophical and discriminating. He knew that the academics and political leaders of the world would not respond to dogma. We would have to be capable of meeting controversial challenges. Now, that may not be for every bhakta or every preacher of Krishna consciousness.
Next, we must do our preaching and teaching of others as a duty to Lord Chaitanya. The fruits of such preaching are the property of Krishna. Krishna highlights in the Bhagavad Gita that one has a right to perform their duty, but not to the fruits of their action. In the case of preaching Krishna consciousness, this means that one can teach others as a service to Sri Gurudeva but should not be overly concerned for the outcome. When beginning in South Africa, I was at first somewhat discouraged in 1973-4. I wanted to create a movement there that would persist, and that could be left behind. It was during apartheid, and the likelihood was that I would not be able to continue getting entry and reentry visas forever! When I confronted Srila Prabhupad about this, he said that I should continue preaching, even if no one was around, because I would be benefited. He was not concerned about the immediate success of the preaching work. Some detachment from concern with the outcome is necessary to perform one’s duty, even in preaching work. Our main business is developing our love for Krishna.
I hope that my aphorism regarding the most intelligent people discuss ideas is not taken as gospel. It is simply, more that anything else, intended to say that discussion of events and gossiping about others are concerns of less thoughtful people. Chant the Holy Names with love and affection. Everytime we chant the Name, Krishna…we have the opportunity to associate with Krishna personally. For me, it is frustrating that my fickle mind will interfere…nay, that I even concern myself with the fickle mind. As His Divine Grace said: Beat the mind with a shoe 100 times in the morning, and 100 times in the evening. Pusta Krishna das
Dear Pustakrsna prabhu,
all glories to lord krsna and his dear devotees.
It is enlivening to hear about your interactions with srila prabhupada. And all your discussions with him were of course completely transcendental, connected with serving krsna, so not the same thing as if someone else were discussing those very same things for a different purpose.
I admire your courage in preaching in a foreign land, and I appreciate your point that we cannot be too attached to the results of our preaching work, but at the same time i know we must be attached to the happiness and desires of guru and krsna. If we are doing our very best and there is no result, that is krsna’s mercy, but if we are not doing our best then that is a different story.
That brings me back to gadi das prabhu’s article. Possibly it was not perfect, but is it beneficial to point out that the manifestation of harsh dealings between devotees must be rectified if we are to expect krsna’s full blessings? By krsna’s mercy i came across these wise words on the internet from a wise soul:
“I have experience that loving spiritual exchanges are what will attract the prospective bhaktas to service. Still, there is much room for bhaktas to screw things up through misconception and offenses. Harsh dealings do occur and have occurred, and we must know that this drives individuals to safer harbors if they exist. Thus, it is incumbent for the leaders of missions to set the tone for such broad-minded teachings and affectionate dealings. If and when we will see discrepancies in the behavior of some followers, we will know that it requires correction. This is not an easy task, but is necessary to protect the ideals.”
Driven to safer harbors, how sad is that. Iskcon temples must become vaikuntha where joyful loving spiritual exchanges overflow and spill into the streets. According to this internet author, it is the service of the leaders to set the tone and take on the task of correcting any misbehavers. But how do they do that? I would appreciate your thoughts.
your servant, klh
One of the beneficial aspects of Dandavats.com is that it provides many of us an opportunity to write which may be beneficial to one’s self and to others. It is clear that all endeavors in this illusory environment are tainted, just as smoke may cover a fire. Still, the potentially purifying nature of writing, helping us to clarify our thoughts and feelings, is a noble and beneficial practice.
I do not think that there is a single aspiring bhakta, my self included, who has not regretted some events in our practicing lives. We must be able to analyze these events as learning opportunities, rather than excuses to cut and run. On the path of bhakti, Srila Rupa Goswami defines that the first stage, and the foundation for further purification, is sraddha, faith. That is furthered by sadhu-sanga. In my hopeful opinion, I believe that the Dandavats forum is another opportunity for sadhu-sanga.
When adverse events take place, we must try to learn from those events, and try our best not to allow them to happen again. In the medical field, we have something called the Hypocratic Oath. In that is included: Primum non noncere. Above all, do not harm. That is an ideal. However, in the course of practicing the medical profession, both internal medicine and surgery, we may be instrumental, despite our good intentions, of hastening the demise of patients. What must one do? Should they give up the practice of medicine despite the obvious good and saving of so many lives? We persevere. We carry on. We try to remember the events that lead to bad outcomes, in order to minimize the risks that they will not occur again.
In devotional life, we have the soul to consider. Although the soul cannot be killed, we can do harm to the enthusiasm for the devotional lives of others. Again, we all have experienced instances by others and also by our selves that may have deterred the progress of the devotional service of others. Still, like a medical practitioner, we must persevere. We must carry on. If our intentions remain good, we cannot turn away from the goal. Faith is a precursor. If one is convinced of the existence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, His all attractive nature will tug at our heart chains. Faith in Guru and Krishna are essential…even when deficiency occurs, it is on our part, and we pray for mercy and attachment to the Lord and His pure devotees.
Pusta Krishna das