Gadi das: It might be a wonderful time to re-define and re-infuse the understanding of the name… International Society for Krsna Consciousness. In Krsna Book, Prabhupada equates the phrase Krsna Consciousness with Loving Krsna.. ref.…. Or it could be stated… The International Society for Loving Krsna… or ISFLK if you insist on abbreviation.
International society infers that souls from all societies and different births, races, genders and varieties of bodies and mindsets offering their devotional service in their special unique way to be absolutely accepted and especially appreciated by the entire world of Krsna devotees… working together in love and trust to spread the teachings of Lord Caitanya to All souls regardless of material differences, thus fulfilling the mission of the great teacher acaryas headed by Srila Prabhupada. I offer my humble obiesances to all the devotees of the Lord.
A society free from envy….to be specific… as envisioned by Srila Prabhupad. This should be our mission. To set the example of how interactions of devotees from all races and conditions, can live together in one village…living, loving, and nurturing the principles in the 3rd prayer of Siksastika. I believe Srila Prabhupada would be delighted to see the effort to create such an atmosphere. We must do this. It just may be an integral part of the second phase of this movement, where there are not only farms and varnashram established, which we are mangaging to develop here at Murari, but also a revolution in the interactions of devotees based on this prayer. This can only be established when chanting the holy names are strong at the center.
Should we not be of the familial mindset of one beautifully variegated family eager to give Krsna to their sincerest capacity?, not considering the obvious differences of culture and attitudes, and thereby eliminate the unpleasant forethoughts…such as…”how will this be perceived by others”? “what are they thinking?” Are they finding fault with me? These are crippling thoughts… “The confidence I used to have in regard to my abilities has been eroded by the fear of peer rejection. These thoughts and these feelings should never have to come into the mind. (only serious discrepancies must be addressed by all devotees.)
The only thought should be the automatic acceptance of the different varieties and capacities of all souls giving their all to Lord Caitanya. In a spirit of love, acceptance and encouragement. Keeping always the proper conclusions of Bhakti at the center.
We should learn to shun the critical and political minded, who want to divide rather than unite. They want to point out and reduce the service attitude of others. In a society free from envy they should find no shelter. Such minds should find no place in the pure teachings of our sampradaya. In our line, we should strive to see all others rendering the finest service, and we should see ourselves falling short in every way.
We regularly fail intermittently with many of our regulative principles ordained to us. We all fail… sometimes… Should we not just own up to our shortcomings and differences, and in a spirit of honest openness, work together in a humble spirit for the sake of the world and ourselves. The soul is not composed of an infinite list of rules and regulations…it is only composed of feelings… Srila Prabhupad lecture.
If we want to live out the Iskcon meaning and purpose, then we better re-identify the meaning of those letters, and move as one broadminded society to spread and infect this world with attraction to Krsna.
We are fallen and miserably unqualified to carry out such an auspicious task, Yes, that I know….but we must.
Yes….International Society for Krishna Consiousness. This name given by the greatest broadminded and compassionate soul to ever grace the surface to this earth. I am a member, and all those who imbibe the original spirit of this movement are members…. And….The whole world is waiting to become members…. We can do it if we can cooperate and live in a spirit of love and trust…. Love and trust can and must win the day! Thanks for listening…your servant, Gadi das…. Murarisevaka.com.
We all know that when a word is used over and over it can easily lose its meaning for us…we say it mindlessly. So thank you gadi prabhu for helping us put our thoughts on the words International Society for Krsna Consciousness, and try to hear them.
I had a thought. International Society FOR krsna consciousness… I wonder if i’m the only one who interpreted “for” as meaning “in favor of/pro/promoting/pushing for.” I am part of a group of people living all over the world who are FOR the spreading of krsna consciousness; that is, who are promoting the growth of an awareness of krsna.
But of course that’s not really it, is it. I mean it’s true, but it’s not the whole truth. It is the society itself… that is, the act of physically gathering devotees at a place, that is FOR…that is to say HAS THE PURPOSE OF krsna consciousness. Getting devotees together so they can engage in the 6 loving exchanges IS the way to krsna consciousness. The act of gathering devotees together IS the sublime door to vaikuntha. We all want to revive our dormant krsna consciousness, and if we are compassionate, we want others to do so too. So when Srila Prabhupada says that an ordinary man (and i suppose that is most of us) can fully revive his dormant Krishna consciousness simply by getting together with other devotees and asking questions about krsna and His service, answering questions about krsna and His service, taking prasadam and serving prasadam, and giving and accepting gifts…why aren’t we all falling all over each other to get into a temple or center and start engaging in loving exchanges, day and night? Day and night, at all times devotees together talking about krsna and eating krsna prasada. Any time you can, you drop in and fun is happening.
We need each other. We need to come together as much, as often, as many as possible. And that meeting place, that spiritually charged hub, will pull others into vaikuntha just as a giant magnet will pull the iron filings.
Coming together is our ticket to vaikuntha.
A lot of what is said in the article can be turned around and read differently.
If we commit ourselves to following the 3rd Siksashtaka verse then why would we worry about our damaged confidence? On the contrary, we should welcome criticism from other devotees, hoping that it would cut down attachments to our materialistic egos.
Chanting of the Holy Names and bhakti will never be in the center as long as we are so protective of our confidence and abilities, nurturing our self-interests is directly opposite to devotion.
ISKCON is a society FOR Krishna consciousness, right, but it also means that people of all races, nationalities, and genders should give up aspirations brought about by their material conditioning and wholly embrace the purest philosophy as it came down to us from Lord Chaitanya.
We cannot hope to remain worldly enjoyers of all possible colors and somehow be in Krishna consciousness, those two are mutually exclusive. We are not transcendental to the world yet.
All varieties of jivas are welcome to the movement of Lord Chaitanya with all their different capacities but we do not see ourselves as jivas so it’s irrelevant. As embodied souls, on the other hand, we are all the same – enjoyers, envious of God, all our variety is just an illusion.
If we want to build a society that accommodates everybody we will surely fail and it won’t be FOR Krishna consciousness anymore. The only way we can be united is if we put Krishna (and also guru and Srila Prabhupada’s) interests above all and relate to each other not on the basis of material variety but on the basis of congregational chanting of the Holy Name.
ISKCON isn’t about establishing vaikuntha on Earth, it’s impossible, and we will never be free from envy, so it’s more like a transit point, the exit door from the material world. We should be extremely grateful that it’s there but it’s not our destination.
Sitalatma prabhu,
Different people hear the meaning of words differently due to different development of their consciousness, so yes you will of course hear an article differently than i do. I am sorry that you hear something negative from gadi prabhu’s article, and maybe also from my comment. But, i for one am very glad you commented because it is always beneficial and enlightening to hear a devotee’s thoughts.
First though, i am sure there are some things in the article that you like…the international society for loving krsna…I mean that has to make you smile. And what about Prabhupada being the greatest broadminded compassionate soul? Or, that the whole world is waiting to become members? And certainly you must agree that love and trust between devotees is attractive and wonderful. What about devotees leading the way to show how people of all backgrounds can get along, live together, harmoniously…ah-oh, does this go into that territory you disagree with?
But certainly you must agree that krsna has given us these material bodies, that they are not all the same, and that it is our duty to utilize what we have been given in krsna’s service. That’s the point of the article. Arjuna was asked to fight, not to act like a brahmana. The problem, as i hear gadi prabhu, is that if we are on the bodily platform we may judge what another devotee is doing for his devotional service and because it is not in line with our material circumstance we may criticize it…and by so judging and criticizing, we may hurt the delicate creeper of devotion of that living entity. Appreciating service is what it is all about, not appreciating self interest or worldly enjoyment. We all have different bodies and different material circumstances and so can offer different kinds of service for krsna’s and devotees’ pleasure. The ways to serve krsna are unlimited.
Now your other points. Yes, prabhu, iskcon IS about establishing vaikuntha on earth, and Yes we must become free from envy, and NO iskcon is not an exit door…because our goal is not mukti, our goal is priti. It is many places, but here is one quote from sb4.30.35 purport: “This sankirtana movement started by the society for krsna consciousness is meant for creating vaikuntha, the transcendental world that is without anxiety, even in this material world.” I would love to discuss more on this, so please answer back.
Your servant, klh
Exchanging opinions is overrated. Practically speaking, there’s only one opinion that we should all subscribe to and share – that of Srila Prabhupada. Diversity of our own thoughts is more often than not is the product of our different upbringing, education, and different exposure to the modern civilization. Sharing these materially conditioned opinions is like spreading a disease.
The key, of course, is to determine what Srila Prabhupada’s opinion is. I submit that anyone reading his books would know that this world is not a place for a gentleman and that our goal is to return back home, back to Godhead. ISKCON was created to help people achieve this goal.
It appears from some earlier comments that currently, in addition to being devotees, many of our members are leading enjoyable lives, working for karmis and spending money on shopping, movies, football, and eating in restaurants. This is absolutely NOT what Prabhupada envisioned when he talked about creating vaikuntha atmosphere either in our temples or greater ISKCON. No matter how good it feels – it’s not Vaikuntha.
And yes, KrsnaLH, you are right, having immense fortune of being brought into the line of Rupa Goswami even real spiritual Vaikuntha is not our goal.
Well, then what should we think about re-creating Vaikuntha on Earth?
You gave a nice quote from Prabhupada’s purport but look at the verse itself:
“Whenever pure topics of the transcendental world are discussed, the members of the audience forget all kinds of material hankerings, at least for the time being. Not only that, but they are no longer envious of one another, nor do they suffer from anxiety or fear.”
I submit that the goal here is discussing pure, transcendental topics and Vaikunta like atmosphere is a by-product. The key here is purity, meaning that we must leave all our material pre-conceptions behind, excluded from Bhagavat-katha, and accept only what we’ve learned from Srila Rrabhupada and his bona fide representatives.
I’m afraid I’m not sure what you mean by broadminded. One of dictionary definitions of broadminded is “tolerant of opposing viewpoints”. Srila Prabhupada, on the other hand, was a preacher of dharmaḥ projjhita-kaitavo ‘tra – completely rejecting all religious activities which are materially motivated, all-EXclusive, so to speak. In that sense he was anything but broadminded.
He himself often used this word in a different sense. Any person of any background can come to Krishna consciousness and give up all his material aspirations. Everyone should give up his sinful activities, chant Hare Krishna, shave his head, and always wear tilak and vaishnava clothes. No one is excluded. If this is what you mean by broadminded, too, then I agree. Most people would be surprised at this definition, though.
Similarly, conventional meaning of compassion is very different from compassion in Krishna consciousness. For ordinary people it means charity, feeding poor, curing diseases and so on. We, on the other hand, worship Srivasa Thakura who didn’t interrupt kirtan even for the sake of his dying son.
Srila Prabhupada was not compassionate in the same way as Mother Teresa or Bill Gates are. Again, most people will not accept that chanting Hare Krishna is the highest form of compassion and if you tell them that Prabhupada was the “most compassionate” they might get the wrong idea of who he was and what he did.
sitalatma prabhu,
Reading your words, you come across as combative…and i’m not sure why you do that. Is there some reason that i am not your friend?
We talk together to reveal our minds and listen as others reveal their minds, and by so doing we hope to learn how we may better serve guru and krsna. Associating with devotees by writing is especially beneficial for its allowing us time to think, to gain deeper understandings. We are not appreciating the wonderful association of devotees if we do not value their thoughts.
We must try to see that we are surrounded by very great souls, and try not to see them in a material way and as people whose diversity is problematic or a disease. Devotional service is using whatever krsna gives you for His service… whatever body, whatever propensities…and then they are no longer material.
No one is talking here of football and movies as vaikuntha, so why do you bring that up? Why do you want to add that to the conversation? (and why do you call that “enjoyable lives”???) We were talking about coming together and talking about krsna and His service, so as to make the temple vaikuntha…and then as more and more people congregate the circle of influence widens. That’s what i’d like to talk about…what we can work on to make it happen. All this blah blah blah about spreading disease and broadminded meaning a person from any background can shave his head….come on prabhu, you can do better than that.
What do you think i meant by broadminded? Prabhupada used “broadminded” and “mahatma” interchangeably. A broadminded person is someone whose mind has broadened…that is, his thoughts and activities are connected to the Lord’s…in our case that means he is at all times engaged in doing the highest good for all by giving krsna consciousness, instead of using his mind for selfish reasons.
And, broadmindedness has absolutely nothing to do with how you dress your body…shaved head, tilok etc. etc…Nothing, zero, zilch. We must try to understand that these things are material.
I would be interested in hearing what propensities krsna has given you to work with in your present body, and how you are developing those propensities so as to increase and improve your service to the Lord.
your servant, klh
I find an almost abject negativity in this statement: “Exchanging opinions is overrated. Practically speaking, there’s only one opinion that we should all subscribe to and share – that of Srila Prabhupada. Diversity of our own thoughts is more often than not is the product of our different upbringing, education, and different exposure to the modern civilization. Sharing these materially conditioned opinions is like spreading a disease.”
Why would Srila Prabhupada on occasion ask for opinions or advice from his own disciples, if they were so unqualified to respond in “diseased” ways? Then why should devotees have meetings and GBC gatherings, if infection of diseased minds are useless?
Did not Srila Prabhupada quote Chanakya Pandit who said that one can receive a gem from a dirty place as being analogous to receiving knowledge or good advice from ‘lowly’ sources? Wasn’t it a ‘karmi’ doctor who advised that Srila Prabhupada should walk for health? How seriously he took that advice…
What to speak of more enlightened devotees meeting and discussing ways of preaching, offering numerous opinions for the pleasure of Srila Prabhupada?
If we do as this paragraph opines, we will all have zero thinking power and enslave ourselves blindly – blind following. Then we would deserve being called a cult. This is not what Srila Prabhupada taught, especially when he recommends us to be “Independently Thoughtful.”
This paragraph also indirectly says that all fellow devotees are unqualified to offer opinions, so better to keep the diseased contagion chained up – Orwell style.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
That is not how word “broadminded” is used in English language so request for definition is warranted, and since conventional definition does not apply we should be careful of using it or risk seriously misrepresenting Srila Prabhupada. I would never casually say that Srila Prabhupada was broadminded, for example.
This is why personally I’m cautious about automatically accepting and agreeing with everything that is posted here – often it can mean anything under the sun and I don’t want to endorse whatever people subsequently do or say afterwards.
In this case I would strenuously object if someone would act as if Srila Prabhupada was broadminded in a conventional sense.
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No one will become blind by strictly following Srila Prabhupada and by learning to see the world through his eyes (or the eyes of his representatives). Actually this is the only way to obtain knowledge – yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau…. This is the only way for us to become shastra-chakshu, and this is the only way to achieve unity.
Knowledge coming to us from materialistic sources is inevitably tainted and passing it around will inevitably spread materialistic disease. I’m sorry if someone doesn’t like this fact but it’s true nevertheless.
Case study – “Orwell style”. Is it supposed to be bad? Why? Maybe I want to live my life Orwell style, always under the watchful eye of guru and Krishna.
Who said that Orwell style is bad anyway? Did these people want to develop bhakti? Did these people agree that strictly following rules and regulations of vaidhi bhakti is the best way to live while waiting for causeless mercy of the Lord?
They had completely different goals, why should we accept their value system? Why should we impose that value system on ourselves by introducing it into our discourse and using it as the last judgment in a conversation about direction of ISKCON?
Dear Kesava Krsna Prabhu, please do not take this as personally relating to you, but as devotees we should avoid association of people who subscribe to atheistic values. It’s even more dangerous if they do it subconsciously because such subtle contamination is more difficult to detect and easier to absorb.
“Independently Thoughtful” is another phrase that in conventional English means something like “independent thinker”. It probably means that we should embrace Krishna consciousness on the strength of judgments made independently of Srila Prabhupada himself – our intelligence, common sense, education, history, western philosophy, George Orwell or Ayn Rand.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t (as in the case of Moon landings). Furthermore, it might also lead to judging our actions and ideas by independent values, as in “you’re doing it Orwell style, prabhu” or “think of the cows, prabhu, show some compassion.”
In this sense “independently thoughtful” would be relevant to the current discussion – exposing ourselves to outside influences and then bringing them inside ISKCON. This should be done very carefully as we aren’t acharyas on the level of Srila Prabhupada who could employ everything in Krishna’s service while maintaining highest level of purity.
In reality, however, “independently thoughtful” means nothing like that, Srila Prabhupada used this phrase (only once, to my knowledge) to mean that we should learn to perform our service without the need to be micromanaged. We can achieve that without reading a single page of non-BBT books or newspapers.
In this sense “independently thoughtful” is irrelevant to my point.
By casually reading these lines out of original context one’s mind might simply register that we should become broadminded independent thinkers full of compassion and that’s what Prabhupada wanted but this is definitely not the case, not in the traditional sense.
sitalatma, what do you think of gadi prabhu’s advice “we should learn to shun the critical…minded, who want to divide rather than unite. They want to point out and reduce the service attitude of others. ”
I wonder, if we were to run into such a devotee, is there is a way to speak to him in a way that could help him get out of that dark place which is so detrimental to his spiritual life…or is it better to simply shun? If we shun, then we close up one outlet for his continuing to make offenses, and that is beneficial for him… because we all know “to blaspheme [or criticize] the great saintly persons who are engaged in preaching the glories of the hare krsna maha-mantra is the worst offense at the lotus feet of the holy name. One should not criticize a preacher of the glories of the hare krsna maha-mantra. If one does so, he is an offender. The nama-prabhu, Who is identical with krsna, will never tolerate such blasphemous activities, even from one who passes as a great devotee.” (CC Adi 8.24, purport) So, if we shun him we are helping him…and yet it seems so compassionless.
Krsna can lift anyone up to pure blissful service where there is no propensity to criticize, and i suppose we can pray to Him to help all devotees come to that platform, but i do wonder if there is anything else we can do?? Since we are far from perfect ourselves we don’t want to come off as self righteous….. but maybe it is possible that by attempting to help another devotee we ourselves will become more humble, more compassionate, more able to root out the propensity to criticize that we still harbor in our own hearts. Maybe krsna does not want us to shun any devotee after all, maybe a devotee who criticizes in our midst is a blessing to help us try to find humility.
So, i must beg you to stop looking for faults that do not exist in devotees as exalted as gadi prabhu. Prabupada said to call a thief a thief is not faultfinding, but to call an honest person a thief is very much offensive. Gadi prabhu is doing his best to spread the glories of the Lord’s holy names and we must appreciate that and encourage it.
Lastly, thank you for bringing to my attention my most dirty, deeply rooted tendency to find fault with others, especially devotees, who i somehow expect to be perfect at all times. Thank you for reminding me that i must better control my tongue and try to completely root out any words that come from false pride.
your servant, klh
Sitalatma Prabhu,
I have no dispute with your out-and-out allegiance to Srila Prabhupada, as you put it. But will the same allegiance hold if one underestimates the value, input and opinions of Srila Prabhupada’s followers?
To say that fellow devotees are incapable of offering opinions because of “disease,” even though the same devotees read and study Srila Prabhupada’s books, indicates that Srila Prabhupada is incapable of raising the consciousness of his disciples and followers.
If Srila Prabhupada is incapable, then how can one be sold-out to him? To have out-and-out faith in Srila Prabhupada also means to acknowledge his followers, and what they may say in Krishna conscious terms.
We can ask further, why did Srila Prabhupada encourage devotees to share realisations with each other and to write them down? “Diseased” devotees cannot do this. Unconditioning devotees can do this. Is Srila Prabhupada encouraging us to share “diseased” realisations and to write down “diseased” thoughts as well? We think not.
Broadminded devotees take shelter under – Daivim-prakrtim – the internal energy of the Lord. Such devotees respect and hold dear all things related to the Lord, His name, His pastimes, paraphernalia and yes, His devotees as well.
Being a real follower of Srila Prabhupada then, means to acknowledge his ‘miracle’ of giving Krishna consciousness and enabling disciples and followers to speak, write and perform wonderful acts of devotion. He created our good fortune. Are fortunate devotees so “diseased?”
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Hare Krishna!
Thanks to Dandavats and to Gadi prabhu for this article! I can say honestly – it is exactly how i feel it.
Yes of course – its sentimental, yes of course – its discutable, yes of course – its objectable, yes of course…
And “society free from envy” sounds allmost like an UTOPIA. Especially – for example – because any organization, society per definition are in need of a professional politics (leaders, managers, organizers)…
But it is so true, until there will not be cardinal revolution in basic understanding – those who are FOR Krishna consciousness will never find a place between those, who think that they are allready IN society OF Krishna consciousness…
ys
Nataraja dasa
haribol Nataraja Prabhu,
Somehow i think you are referring to my comment with your capitalized FOR, but honestly i’m not sure what you’re saying??? What does “will never find a place between those” mean? We were discussing a deeper look at the name International Society for Krsna Consciousness… My point was that in meditating on the name i got a realization of the real importance of gathering together and giving each other association.
ys, klh
Why would we want to shun them? If it’s because we don’t want to be criticized then I disagree.
Also, what kind of unity is talked about here? The only unity we must strive for should be based on allegiance to Srila Prabhupada. In this sense those who divide us are disloyal to him, and we have ISKCON official policy on how to deal with such people.
If, however, we are talking about unity based on material diversity than in Kali Yuga, Age of Quarell, it’s a thankless effort. We can try to patch up some differences here and there temporarily but it will never work. Look, we can’t even feed all our devotees from the same kitchen – Indian devotees want their prasadam spicy, westerners want bread, not chapatis, others complain about wrong kind of oil, mixed up dosas, and now we have vegans, too.
This will never end, materialists have been trying to fix this for most of the last century through the UN and affiliated programs but without any success. Their ultimate solution is for everyone to do their own thing and not care for anyone else because caring causes problems. It’s the epitome of impersonalism.
I’d rather have people telling me off because they see me doing something wrong than being indifferent and leaving me to my own devices. I don’t want to be respected for doing nonsense just because respect is the new mantra.
Unity is not our goal anyway, it’s a by-product of our devotion to Prabhupada. Trying to reconcile our material differences is no different from trying to fix all other material problems – fool’s errand and a giant waste of time.
Why not take advice from the same Bhagavatam purport KrishnaLH quoted earlier:
“Whenever pure topics of the transcendental world are discussed, the members of the audience forget all kinds of material hankerings, at least for the time being. Not only that, but they are no longer envious of one another, nor do they suffer from anxiety or fear.”
That’s the only solution.
To Keshava Krishna Prabhu – I get what you are saying but there’s also such thing as prajalpa and it affects all of us. We’d rather not see our seniors engaged in it but sometimes it happens, too, and we’d better leave the room.
Pure topics of the transcendental world is the only safe harbor.
Even when on the surface there appears discord, I/We respect the mentality of the sincere seeker that draws from the heart from the bhakta. I envision a ball placed in rotation inside a funnel…eventually it finds its way to the small opening at the bottom of the funnel. Just see how the devotees may oscillate around topics but because of their sincere nature of seeking, they find themselves attracted ultimately to the Center, Krishna. That is a beautiful and inspiring thing to witness, and a sign of the surrender of these beautiful souls to Krishna. Krishna is the creator and owner of all souls, His senses are expanded into our own spiritual senses, He is capable of receiving the service of all souls. There is never need for envy. Just see how when the gopas/cowherd boys want to massage Krishna’s lotus feet or play with Him in other manners, Krishna expands Himself to be with each and every one of the devoted souls. Our conception, our reality of Krishna consciousness is so superior to all conceptions of spiritual liberation or heaven. How fortunate we are, grace of Srila Prabhupad. It is also wonderful to observe again and again the oscillations of faith seeking the Center which always leads to Home with Krishna. Even when it appears there is dis-unity, ultimately the souls seeking Krishna will reject lording over matter and find their shelter at the Lotus Feet of the Lord. Have faith in the process, as Srila Prabhupad does. Material adjustments are not the way, but rather HariNama.
Pusta Krishna das