By Sita Rama dasa
Recently, a devotee shared their perspective on the perpetual “fall of the jiva” question. The devotee’s position is this: the Bhagavada Gita says once we go back to Godhead we never return, their Guru confirms this, and those who disagree are guilty of philosophical deviation.
I had previously formed my own opinion about the jiva fall. I considered it an inconceivable, unresolvable issue–one in which people can have differing, yet equally valid, views. So I told the devotee we need not see those with different views as deviators.
At the same time, inwardly, I did not accept their position at face value. I am pursuing graduate studies in Conflict Resolution and have learned that in most cases the real conflict is other than the surface debate. We must identify the root cause of the conflict or there is no hope of resolution. Resolving the surface issue may create some temporary remedy, but the conflict will continue to arise. It seems the history of this issue in our movement fits that description.
My opinion that, in this regard, divergent views can be equally valid, is ideal for someone involved in conflict resolution, but after researching Srila Prabhupada’s teaching (cited below) I could no longer remain neutral. Srila Prabhupada’s position is not contradictory or ambiguous.
In this way I have identified the root issue. The real question is whether or not we accept Srila Prabhupada as the ultimate authority.
Some may say that Gaudiya Vaisnava Acharyas can have differing viewpoints, therefore a different perspective from a previous acharya in our line can be held as equally valid to Srila Prabhupada’s. But we must acknowledge that often, the seeming contradiction among acharyas can be reconciled by understanding the nature and context of presentation.
This must be the case here because the nature of the jiva is an ontological issue (ontology is defined as “the nature of existence”). There can be disagreement amongst acharyas on certain issues, but all Gaudiya Vaisnavas agree on the nature of existence. Thus, we can be certain that anything said by a previous acharya, in this regard, that seems to contradict Srila Prabhupada is a product of our inability to understand the presentation of that previous acharya.
This ontology is not complicated. As we’ll see below, in Srila Prabhpada’s direct responses to this question, free will is an eternal attribute of the jiva. We cannot love Krishna in the spiritual world unless free will exists there. Therefore the chance of falling down always exists.
The concept of eternality is a bit harder to grasp. But it is clearly stated by Srila Prabhupada that our relationship with Krishna always exists, not that it ceases to exist when the jiva becomes conditioned. Rather, we simply forget our relationship. In this way, we can say that in one sense we never fall, but Srila Prabhupada clearly states that we were with Krishna before becoming conditioned.
In other words, if a previous acharya says it not possible to fall from the spiritual world, we can accept this as another way of saying what Srila Prabhupada says: our relationship with Krishna in Krsnaloka never ceases, even when we are in the conditioned state.
But, if we accept Srila Prabhupada’s teachings we cannot deny that we were in the spiritual world before becoming conditioned. It follows: those who deny that conditioned souls were previously in the spiritual world do not accept Srila Prabhupada’s teachings as absolute. This is the root of the controversy.
So if we want to continue the discussion, let us not confound the issue with the “fall of the jiva” question, but instead discuss the root issue only– whether or not we accept Srila Prabhupada as the ultimate authority.
Srila Prabhupada, letter to Jagadisa 4/25 1970
Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned.
Letter to Madhavisa Siksamrta V.2 page 1172
We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by maya [illusion]. Formerly we were with Krishna in his lila or sport. But this covering of maya may be very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned.
Srila Prabhupada, letter to Jagadisa 8/9/1970
Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities.
Evening Darsana, July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that “Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?” I immediately fall down.
Srila Prabhupada to Upendra 10/27/1969
Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the fall down has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain.
4/25 1970 to Jagadisa
Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence.
Room Conversation Feburary 19, 1976 Mayapur
Acyutananda: “…….. But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
Evening Darsana
July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C.
Vipina: Why doesn’t He save me from thinking like that?
Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.
Vipina: And no love.
Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said “If you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? (laughter) “You love me, otherwise I will kill you.” (laughter) Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, “You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.” That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The… Why one is called lover, another is called rape?
(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)
The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.”
Your servant,
Sita Rama dasa
It is not surprising that our ordinary logic fails us when we try to speak of what we were doing “before” we were conditioned. The very notion of “before” and “after”, at least in the conventional sense, seems only to apply to those who are under the control of material time, with its past, present and future. In other words, these notions do not properly apply to those who are not conditioned.
Therefore it also should not surprise us that different scriptures and acaryas may describe these things differently. Their descriptions should be taken as correct, and apparent contradictions with other authoritative should be taken as inconceivable to us in our present state.
Srila Prabhupada’s books contain many references to “anadi-karma”, to our having been conditioned “since time immemorial”, since before time began, for many creations and annihilations of whole universes, and also statements that “no one ever falls from the spiritual world.”
And yet he also mentions that we were previously with Krishna in His eternal lila but we misused our independence and fell.
And in his famous “Crow and Tal Fruit” letter, he warns us not to waste time arguing about it. It is beyond our comprehension.
As noted in Chapter 15 of Jaiva Dharma, “When we who are living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, ‘The individual souls were created,’ ‘the individual souls were imprisoned by maya,’ ‘the spiritual world was manifested,’ and ‘the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya.’ When we talk in these ways, we certainly show how much we are influenced by staying in this world of material time.”
One thing we know is that we have a “svarupa”, or eternal, constitutional nature. Lord Caitanya tells us that the jivas’ ‘svarupa’ is as Krishna’s servants, eternally. Krishna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind but is the dormant, original consciousness of the jiva, which is reawakened by chanting Hare Krishna. Thus, going “Back to Godhead” is not like visiting some new, foreign realm, but is returning to our original, eternal home, awakening the “nitya-siddha krishna prema” which already exists in our hearts.
In the inaugural English edition of the Harmonist (June 1927), Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvarti Thakur wrote, “‘Back to God, and back to home’ is the message of the Gaudiya Math.” (“The Gaudiya Math: Its Message and Activities”)
Although current GBC law forbids a comprehensive response to this article;
“No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.).”
exception must be taken with the authors equating loyalty to Srila Prabhupada with acceptance of the articles conclusion.
“In this way I have identified the root issue. The real question is whether or not we accept Srila Prabhupada as the ultimate authority.”
Sita Rama dasa should have mentioned that in the section of Srimad Bhagavatam where this subject is comprehensively dealt with, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada has stated in his purport;
“After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode.”
Inclusion of this significant purport would have provided the reader with a more balanced and well informed perspective on this important subject.
Dulal Chandra Prabhu,
I agree that my article is not a complete explanation of the paradoxical aspects of this topic. Along with your citation, in the section of the Srimada Bhagavatam, “where this subject is comprehensively dealt with” we find:
SB 7.1.35
Srila Prabhuppda cites Srila Madvacharya, and comments:
“The purport is that the personal associates of Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha Loka are always liberated souls. Even if sometimes cursed or blessed they are always liberated and never contaminated by the material modes of nature. Before their liberation to Vaikuntha they possessed material bodies, but once they come to Vaikuntha they no longer have them. Therefore even if the associates of Lord Visnu sometimes descend as if cursed they are always liberated”.
Jay and Vijaya had no desire to forget Krishna. If someone does not want to leave Vaikuntha they cannot be forced out by a curse; rather their descending, “as if cursed” was part of their participation in Krishna’s Pastime. They never forgot Krishna, they were always liberated. So we can say they never fell.
We left Krishna because we wanted to forget Him. And we have been here for so long we are sometimes called eternally conditioned. But we can also say, in one sense, we never fall because our relationship with Krishna exists eternally even when we forget it. Again it comes back to the ABC’s of our philosophy regarding the nature of existence. We are eternally marginal because we have minute independence. Even when we misuse our independence and become conditioned we are eternal spirit souls. We inhabit a material body but we are not the material body.
It is reasonable to seek clarification for this paradox. But if we do a Vedabase search for, “back to Godhead”( in quotations) we get over 7000 hits. We cannot go back to Godhead if we were never there. We also have Srila Prabhupada’s explicit answers to this question,” we were with Krishna before becoming conditioned” (the quotes cited are just a sampling). The question has been conclusively answered; therefore, to suggest the possibility of the apposing conclusion( that we were not with Krishna previously) regardless of the so called basis, is to deny that Srila Prabhupada is the ultimate authority.
I hope I can briefly make three simple comments in response to Sita Rama dasa’s article, even though some may not welcome them.
First, he has framed the issue incorrectly. He says the root of the issue is “whether or not we accept Srila Prabhupada as the ultimate authority.” However, Srila Prabhupada has taught to accept the Supreme Lord as the ultimate authority. He also made it abundantly clear that his own authority rests on his repeating the previous acaryas’ teachings without changing anything.
Second, there’s the nature of the authority Sita Rama uses. He quotes Srila Prabhupada very selectively, using only quotations from letters or conversations. I think most devotees accept the hierarchy of authority Jayadvaita Swami suggests in the front matter to the VedaBase, that Prabhupada’s books should be accepted over other sources. This same principle is accepted when arguing in courts of law. A ruling from, for example, the U. S. Supreme Court carries more weight than that of any other court.
With that question of weight in mind, I find that any discussion that doesn’t take into account the purport that Dulal Chandra cites in his comment can’t be taken very seriously. Besides that purport, there is this, from the Bhagavatam’s 7th Canto:
Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated visnu-bhaktas . . . ? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.
The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.
PURPORT
. . . The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.
Considering that the material manifestation is 1/4th the size of the entire manifestation, does that mean that 1/4th of the residents of the spiritual world have fallen? Is that a reasonable assumption? If so, then falling from the spiritual world is common and not unexpected. Kind of like living in a city where 1/4th of the residents are in jail at any given time… you would not be surprised to hear, “oh, so-and-so just got arrested and locked up”.
Many, if not most ISKCON devotees, being faithful and loyal to Srila Prabhupada, accept his conclusion:
THE CONCLUSION IS THAT NO ONE FALLS FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.
(S.B. 3.16.26)
Thus, they do, as all other Gaudiya Vaishnavas, accept the verdict of Sastras and of our previous acaryas:
The nitya-siddhas never fall in the realm of the material atmosphere.
(S.B. 3.3.26)
A devotee who is in the spiritual abode of the Lord never falls from it.
(S.B. 3.15.48)
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Lord, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (S.B. 3.25.29)
The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world. (S.B. 5.11.12)
The eternally liberated souls never come in touch with material energy.
(CC Madhya 22.14, 15 and CC Madhya 20.269, 270)
The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons. (S.B. 7.1.35)
PURPORT
This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: “only you can explain the reason.” From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.
Thus, we can understand that the transcendental trick of Srila Prabhupada, in order to prevent his disciples and prospective disciples to fall down or fall back down into impersonalism and voidism (nirvisesa sunyavadi), was to tell them that we were formerly associating with Krishna, via one of the three aspects of Godhead, which is true, since the Absolute Truth is known as follows
vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvam yaj jnanam advayam
brahmeti paramatmeti
bhagavan iti sabdyate
Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatma or Bhagavan (S.B. 1.2.11)
In this sense, yes, we were with Krishna…! As Brahman is also an aspect of Krishna !
The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas). (Brahma-Samhita 10, purport)
Which Srila Prabhupada confirms:
“The all-pervading feature of the Lord – which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jīva-śakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls – is known as Brahman.” (Śri Īsopanisad, 16, Purport)
One may also point out that Srila Prabhupada’s wording was “Back to Godhead” and neither “Back to Goloka Vrindavana” nor “Back to Krishna loka”…!
As it is, Srila Prabhupada referred specifically to “Back to Godhead”, which includes the Bramajyoti. Thus, after having fallen dow into the material energy, a jiva who is spiritual by nature, goes back into the spiritual sphere, made of spiritual energy only.
So, in terms of conflict resolution, our dear Sita Rama Prabhu may find some appeasement without having to cast aside our Gaudiya Vaishnava siddantha and its faithful followers, by understanding that everyone is right in some sense, if we consider these three features of the Absolute Truth.
It is also interesting to note that Sita Rama Prabhu almost exclusively quotes letters and darshans, which may at times be understood to be circumstantial or adjusted as the proper dose of medicine necessary to cure a disciple from his impersonalist disease and attachments, as it seems to have been repeatedly the case with Jagadisa das for instance.
However, this quote from Srila Prabhupada requires further explanation:
“The all-pervading feature of the Lord – which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jīva-śakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls – is known as Brahman.” (Śri Īsopanisad, 16, Purport)
From Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 16 entitled “Jīvas Possessed by Māyā”, one may get some clarification:
Bābājī: …Innumerable jīvas appear from Śrī Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vṛndāvana-vihari Śrī Kṛṣṇa as His eternal associates in Goloka Vṛndāvana, and others appear from Śrī Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuṇṭha, Śrī Nārāyana, in the spiritual sky.
Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavān, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-śakti, they are always strong.
They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called māyā or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, māyā is very far away from them and does not affect them at all.
Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.
There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jīvas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Mahā-Viṣṇu’s glance upon His māyā-śakti. Because these jīvas are situated next to māyā, they perceive her wonderful workings.
Although they have all the qualities of the jīvas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jīva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (sevā-vastu).
Among these unlimited jīvas, those who want to enjoy māyā become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jīvas who perform cid-anuśilanam of Bhagavān receive spiritual śakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. (Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 16, Page 377-378)
Our previous Acaryas in the Parampara have elaborately elaborated on this point of the origin of the jiva, and it would be foolish for us to think Srila Prabhupada would have contradicted them and presented some apa-siddantha which, as we have seen, is not the case:
It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres.
(Tattva Viveka 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)
Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4, page 46)
A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya’s enjoyments, maya’with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world.
(Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)
The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God.
(Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, also known as the sixth Goswami, explains further:
The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna.
(Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15, page 213)
The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul’s essential nature that ‘I am Krsna’s servant.’ This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)
There are two types of jivas liberated from maya–nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana.
(Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251)
Mahavisnu, the Incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas. (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 215-216)
Indeed, Srila Prabhupada confirms his being perfectly in line with the teaching of our whole Parampara, originating with the teachings of Sri Krishna imparted to Lord Brahma:
As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.
(Śri Īsopanisad, 17, Purport)
Furthermore, how could one conceive that Srila Prabhupada would ever contradict the teachings of his own Spiritual Master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Maharaja Prabhupada:
Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya’s Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)
Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or properly use his independence . . . The souls in the tatastha position are not one, but many in number. Thay are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit Sakti or unalloyed Acit or Maya Sakti. In the tatastha position, souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent stage. (Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings-Part II, Chapter One, p. 391-2, Third Edition)
The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that . . . (From an English article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati entitled, Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, 10th paragraph)
A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)
The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text)
In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees) (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)
. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)
Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura:
Therefore there is no birth or death for the Vaisnavas [the eternal associates]. They descend to the material world with the Lord and return to His abode with Him. The Vaisnava is never bound by karma and thus does not take birth in the material world. (Caitanya-Bhagavata Antya-lila 10.172)
Srila Rupa Gosvami:
Even the associates of the Lord are described as having eternal forms. (Laghu-bhag. 1.143)
The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)
The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)
Srila Jiva Gosvami:
The third of ten characteristics of Vaikuntha listed by Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhagavat-sandarbha, text 61, is that anyone who has attained Vaikuntha does not fall. Srila Jiva Gosvami also provides numerous examples and quotes as proof of this fact.
Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana:
Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, “One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord.” He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6)
Dea rSwami B. A. Ashram
You say, Srila Prabhupada, “made it abundantly clear that his own authority rests on his repeating the previous acaryas’ teachings without changing anything.”
We agree on that premise.
Srila Prabhupada states:
“Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned”
It follows logically:
The the previous acharya’s have the same conclusion: we were with Krishna before becoming conditioned.
Secondly: Jayavaita Swami who says the books are most authoritative.
It was an article by Jayadvaita Swami where I found most of the letters I cited above (http://www.krishna.com/where-do-fallen-souls-fall). Before citing the letters, Maharaja states ,” “The Relationship is Eternal” Here, then, is how Srila Prabhupada described our original state and the way we fall and leave it”
This is not a time and place issue.. The nature of the jiva is eternal. One statement that the Jiva’s were in the spiritual world before becoming conditioned means we cannot deny this fact.
I cited one conclusive statement from Srila Prabhupada’s books above, here is one more. In the purport to SB 4, 28, 51 Srila Prabhupada explains that in Narada Muni’s allegorical story to Purunjana the supersoul appears to an individual soul as an elderly Brhamana.
SB 4 28 53 Translation:
The brähmaëa continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can’t you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.
Beyond this, when we do a Vedabase search for, “back to godhead”( in quotation marks) we get over 7000 hits. How many citations are required, 50, 500, 5000 ? We can’t go back if we were never there!
Maharaja Yudhisthira Maharaja finds it unbelievable that,” unflinching devotees” could be cursed to come to the material world. It is therefore explained that they were not forced out of Vaikuntha, rather they were to participate in Krishna lila in this world . IN THIS CONTEXT, it is said none ever falls from Viakuntha. We are discussing the context of the fallen conditioned souls. Srila Prabhupada has said numerous times that when we desire to enjoy separately from Krishna we fall from our original position. It is ABC to understand that the conditioned souls, in one sense, is not fallen as, Srila Prabhupada also explains.
Dear Puskaraska Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisance.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
I am glad to hear from you again, my old friend. Nice try!
You cite Srila Prabhupada:
“From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord”.
The pastime of Jaya and Vijaya is not about two jivas becoming conditioned souls. They did not desire to forget Krishna. So not only did they never fall but their coming here was comparable to Krishna’s coming here. Srila Prabhupada has said numerous times, in the context of conditioned souls, that originally we were with Krishna but we left because we want to forget him.Although we have forgotten it, our relationship with Krishna still exists, so in sense we never fall. But the undeniable fact is we were with Krishna in his Lila before becoming conditioned. I hope this clears up any confusion.
Ys,
Sita Rama das
Dear Swami B.A. Ashram.
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
The proper greeting did not copy when I pasted my response to you; however I did intend it to be there. Also, the tone can be ambiguous when writing so I want to say I intend to present everything in a respectful manner.
Sincerely.
Your servant,
Sita Rama das
Karma is beginningless, but it is not eternal. Therefore to say one is “eternally conditioned” does not mean that he will never come out of conditioning. It just means that no one can trace out exactly when and how he came to be conditioned. He is said to be conditioned from time immemorial. You cannot go back in time until you find out when he was first conditioned.
Karma does not exist in the spiritual world. Everything that happens in the spiritual world happens outside the realm of material time. Everything that happens there is eternal. If karma were there, karma would be eternal too.
As soon as a marginal jiva misuses his independence then immediately he is placed in the realm of duality and fear (bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatam syad, SB 11.2.37). It does not make sense to argue whether it happens on this side or that side.
I think devotees make too much of this apparent contradiction. It is just a matter of spiritual time being inconceivable to us in our conditioned state. we think things need to follow a sequence of before and after. In the spiritual world time is not separated that way. Nothing there is subject to the quality of passing away even for the space of half a moment.
The GBC resolutions of 1995 do not prevent any thorough discussion of this topic, unless one wants to suggest that Srila Prabhupada was mistaken or dissimulating.
Res. No 79 says:
“1) Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krsna’s marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:
“The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.” (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)
No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view … ”
Srila Prabhupada presented the whole topic thoroughly and in line with all acaryas
The point of my quoting Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada’s “‘Back to God, and back to home’ is the message of the Gaudiya Math” in Comment #1, in case it was not clear (I did not have space to explain further but I hoped it was clear), was just to show that “Back to Godhead” was not some invention of Srila Prabhupada, but that Srila Prabhupada’s teachings are all continuous with the teachings of Bhaktisiddhanta Saravsvati, Bhaktivinode Thakur and all the acaryas.
Srila Prabhupada frequently said, “I have presented the message intact, without adding or subtracting anything, exactly as I have heard it in disciplic succession.”
If there appears to be a contradiction between the teachings of one acarya and another, we should understand that it is due to our own defective understanding.
It makes no sense to suggest that Srila Prabhupada was teaching us some “simplified” version. What he was teaching is apparently contradictory, so how is it simplified?
I sympathize with Sita Rama because I have heard devotees actually argue that Srila Prabhupada was wrong (I have been told “he didn’t know”!), or that he was deliberately teaching us something wrong, but it seemed to me like these devotees were accepting a more simplified version, and were trying to “jump over” their own spiritual master.
But I also sympathize with Swami B.A. Asrama because there is something in the tone of the article that might suggest (if unintentionally) that Srila Prabhupada really *did* teach something different from previous acaryas and we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s version as different and better. I do not think Srila Prabhupada would want us to think in that way.
When we hear in writings of previous acaryas things like, “The marginal jivas originated on a line of demarcation…”, we should try to see how these are various descriptions of inconceivable things. We know from Bhagavad-gita that jivas did not “originate’ at all, in the sense of having at one time never existed.
Vedic aphorisms such as “eko bahu syam” (the one God expanded Himself into many) does not mean that there was a time before there were many. These things happen outside the realm of time.
We should not think, “Once there was no Lord Caitanya, and then Krishna decided to experience being Lord Caitanya.” These transcendental pastimes are happening eternally, beyond material time.
It is inconceivable to us because of our own view of time.
For clarity, so as to ease our readers’ understanding, Posts 13 to 17 were written before Posts 7 to 12 were published. So, for instance the answers of our dear Sita Rama Prabhu do not actually take into consideration, at that stage, the Vaishnava siddantha as it has been presented by all the Acaryas in our Parampara, which Srila Prabhupada corroborated.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura (also known as the seventh Goswami):
There are two types of jivas liberated from maya–nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251)
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:
Jivas are of two kinds. 1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free) 2) Nitya-baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are ever serving the Supreme God. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Srila Bhaktisiddanta S. T.)
Srila Prabhupada:
The living entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. They are of two varieties, namely nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The nitya-muktas are eternally liberated souls, and they are eternally engaged in the reciprocation of transcendental loving service with the Lord in His eternal abode beyond the manifested mundane creations. (Bhag.1.10.22, purp.)
Thus,
The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)
The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)
Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krishna (TLC, p. 108)
. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (NoD, p.205)
Regarding Puskaraksa’s comment # 18, I agree it is important to understand the distinction between nitya-siddha eternal associates of Krishna, nitya baddha conditioned souls, and also that people may become sadhana-siddha or krpa-siddha and attain perfection.
It can be confusing, because servants like Jaya and Vijaya come to this world with a certain purpose, for example to give Krishna an opportunity to sport with them in fighting. But in the “Crow and Tal Fruit” letter Srila Prabhupada says that on the strength of the example of Jaya and Vijaya he says we fell from Krishna’s lila. (!)
We must recognize that Krishna’s eternal associates never fall down, and that it is an offense for a conditioned soul to think, “I am Subala, I am Nanda Maharaja” or anything like that. Krishna’s eternal associates, though they are not Visnu-tattva, are fully empowered with 55 of His 64 qualities, and they reside eternally in the spiritual world. They never forget Krishna, even if they come to this world for some purpose, such as to assist Him with His pastimes.
Now, Narada Muni tells a story of how he became perfect after taking prasada and hearing from Vaisnava “Bhaktivedantas”. Does that mean he is a sadhana sidha and not a nitya siddha living entity? Or was his life as a maidservant’s son an arrangement of yogamaya’s, like Jaya and Vijaya’s three births as demons? I have heard devotees express opposite conclusions about this.
It gets confusing when we consider that Lord Caitanya says (Cc. Madhya 22.77): “nitya-siddha krishna-prema ‘sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddhe-citte karaya udaya”. We awaken the “nitya-siddha” (!) Krishna prema in our hearts by sankirtan. It is not gained from some outside source.
And so we have passages like this, from a lecture Srila Prabhupada gave in New York, July 13, 1976:
“But the actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, because God is eternal and His part and parcels, the living entities, they are also eternal. So that is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha, sadhana-siddha, krpa-siddha—there are different grades. They are all described in The Nectar of Devotion. So one can become sadhana-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha.
“So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha, to bring them. It is a difficult task.”
So it can be confusing.
Akuranath Prabhu,
I do not know the grounds for your claim, “There is something in the tone of the article that might suggest (if unintentionally) that Srila Prabhupada really *did* teach something different from previous acaryas and we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s version as different and better. I do not think Srila Prabhupada would want us to think in that way”.
You do not ,”think”, Srila Prabhupada does not want us to think in that way- I KNOW Srila Prabhupada does not want us to think in that way. Srila Prabhupada told us not to think that way thousands of times. The acaryas teach the scripture, “as it is”. These teachings are above the defects of the material mind because they are not products of the material mind. This is part of the ABC’s of Krishna Consciousness.
Based on Srila Prabhupada’s general teachings, it is hard for me to see how it can be unclear that we were once in Krishna Loka. Beyond this, however, we see that Srila Prabhupada’s answers to the question are absolutely conclusive. Yet some devotees will present a SEEMINGLY contradictory statement from a previous acarya and tell us we therefore must deny Srila Prabhupada’s unmistakable position. My position is that when Srila Prabhupada makes a conclusive statement and we see something from a previous acarya which seems to contradict it we must conclude that we misunderstand the statement of the previous acarya rather than reject what Srila Prabhupada says.
It is hard to believe that any experienced devotee can be legitimately confused regarding this subject. We can never fall from the Vaikuntha if, like Jay and Vijaya, we want to remember Krishna. But we are not like them. We can directly observe that, as conditioned souls, we are trying to forget God and enjoy the material world. We are not suffering here because we haven’t yet devolved a relationship with Krishna; rather we suffer because we are motivated to forget our original, constitutional position.
“My position is that when Srila Prabhupada makes a conclusive statement and we see something from a previous acarya which seems to contradict it we must conclude that we misunderstand the statement of the previous acarya rather than reject what Srila Prabhupada says.”
You and I are in agreement about this.
“I do not know the grounds for your claim, “There is something in the tone of the article that might suggest (if unintentionally) that Srila Prabhupada really *did* teach something different from previous acaryas and we should accept Srila Prabhupada’s version as different and better.”
Just for the reasons alluded to by Swami B.A. Asrama. Please don’t take it hard. It seems like instead of focusing on and explaining the statements Srila Prabhupada (and other acaryas) have made that seem to contradict the position that we were previously with Krishna in his lila, with an effort to harmonize and show that both are absolutely true, and the seeming contradictions come from a defect in our own consciousness, your emphasized that Srila Prabhupada had made it clear that we were once with Krishna in His lila and fell down.
My experience in reading Srimad Bhagavatam is that Srila Prabhupada also does emphasize these other points, that we are eternally conditioned, our ignorance is beginningless, the nitya siddhas are a different category, no one ever falls from Vaikuntha, etc. These are points made by Srila Prabhupada and by scriptures and our previous acaryas, that should be explained.
When the GBC resolutions came down in 1995, I understood them as targeting certain devotees who were undermining faith in Srila Prabhupada”s explanations of the subject, but there were some senior devotees who were upset with the decision (notably, Puskaraksa Prabhu’s saintly spiritual master Sriman Gour Govinda Swami). To such devotees it appeared that the GBC was taking a stand against the clear statements of scriptures and previous acaryas that appear to contradict the conclusion that we were previously with Krishna. It would be better to see more harmony and in-depth discussion of both “sides” of the subject.
I think the whole controversy should be a tempest in a teapot. The defect is our inability, as conditioned souls, to conceive of matters beyond time and space. We have to use terms like “before” and “once”, or provide a spacial locus for “where” the jivas “originated”. These are just signposts for our understanding.
“On the top of a tree there was a nice tal fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas—big, big learned scholars—saw this and discussed: ‘The fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb.’ ‘No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away.’ ‘No, the fruit was ripe, and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch.’ And so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahma-sayujya or with Krishna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krishna consciousness and go there [back to Godhead]—never mind what is your origin.”
The point of this crow and tal fruit story, it seems to me, is that we are not supposed to become partisans of one or another side of this apparent debate.
Of course, Srila Prabhupada does go on to make the point that when we are in maya, we are still indirectly in touch with Krishna through His energies, we cannot ever go out of the sun, and so on. He gives a thorough explanation that explains both sides of the issue.
But his emphasis seems to be not to take one side or the other (were we previously, “originally”, here or there?), but to teach us to avoid useless debates caused by our inability to understand, due to the limits of our conditioned state. There is a kind of categorical imperative that now prevents us from beholding Krishna, with all His inconceivable glory, through pure bhakti. We should understand and fix that.
Srila Prabhupada concluded his letter: “But we should think that, ‘because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased.’ We should think that, ‘I must get to business to get myself uncovered,’ and not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there—take it and enjoy. That is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change [anything]; He is the cause of all causes. Now don’t waste your time with this kaka-taliya-nyaya, ‘crow-and-tal-fruit logic.’”
I do not mean to accuse anyone here of crow-and-tal-fruit logic, but just to generally call on all of us to accept that it is better to look at all statements and harmonize them than to dig in our heels about whose statements are more authoritative. Srila Prabhupada’s explanations seem to be all-encompassing to me, to have that quality of accepting both sides and explaining how both can inconceivably be correct.
“Brahma-sayujya and Krishna-lila—both may be possible. But when you came down from Brahma-sayujya or from Krishna lila, that remains a mystery.”
Recently a senior ISKCON sannyasi and scholar wrote me that there is evidence from scriptures and previous acaryas that one may be liberated in brahma-sayujya and never fall down again. That is why, he explained, the prospect of such liberation is so horrifying and hellish for Vaisnavas. How long might we stay in a state of impersonal liberation, outside of Krishna’s lila? We could get stuck there eternally!
I have to admit that in reading Srila Prabhupada’s books he always seems to emphasize that even if we attain brahma-sayujya we will eventually fall back down into conditioned karma and birth and death. Usually he cites “aruhya-krcchena param padam tatah patanty adhah” (S.B. 10.2.32) (But this Swami suggests that can be understood as only referring to jivan-muktis).
I cannot recall ever coming across a statement by Srila Prabhupada that we could get stuck eternally in brahma-sayujya and never return (although he describes the condition as “hellish”, “never accepted by Vaisnavas”, “last snare of maya”, etc.)
But whether it is eternally or just billions of billions of years, what difference should that make to us in terms of our own determination to attain the Lord’s lotus feet? We should be eager to attain Krishna now!
In the crow-and-tal-fruit letter, Srila Prabhupada explains the position that all jivas are by nature Krishna’s eternal servants, whether in maya or in Vaikuntha.
But he also says, as to whether we came down from brahma-sayujya or from Krishna’s lila, “both may be possible”. He further says that “when” remains a mystery. He is not calling on his disciples to defeat the view that we came down from brahma-sayujya, although at times he explained that brahma-sayujya should be understood as already a fallen condition (of course).
In Brahmaloka there is a limited duration of time before the destruction of the universe. Krishna says “punar avartino ‘rjuna” (B.G. 8.16) But in the brahmajyoti itself, time as we conceive it does not exist. Time is a form Krishna assumes in connection with His srsthi-sthithi-pralaya lila.
I do not find it objectionable to keep an open mind about these issues. Srila Prabhupada did not insist on us coming down hard on one side or the other. But we should avoid doubting, minimizing or neglecting Srila Prabhupada (of course).
Akuranatha Prabhu,
You are correct I did not make “an effort to harmonize and show that both are absolutely true”, and I, “emphasized that Srila Prabhupada had made it clear that we were once with Krishna in His lila and fell down”.
That was intentional. There is no question of ,”harmonizing” unless we first agree that Srila Prabhupada is correct (we were in Krishna Loka before being conditioned). If someone does not agree with this, the question becomes why they do not accept Srila Prabhupada’s undeniable conclusion? I am more interested in the point of accepting Srila Prabhupada than in this specific topic per se. But I have clearly stated, after accepting Srila Prabhupada, we can try to understand how statements of the previous acaryas are absolutely true.
But, “harmonizing,” has connotations of blending two views together to develop a hybrid solution. Such hybrid solutions are simple products of our material minds. Sometimes people propose this harmonizing as a smoke screen with the intention of minimizing the absoluteness of Srila Prabhupadas explanations of Vaisnava Sidhanta. This is a good topic for those with such intentions because aspects of it (eternality) are beyond are comprehension. But Srila Prabhupadas position is not beyond our comprehension. Therefore attempts to befuddle the obvious are not effective on me.
I am positive you have no intention of making a hybrid concoction. But we have to demand agreement that we fell from Viakuntha or our harmonizing will be simple be a compromise. In a court case sometimes the attorneys have more to say but the judge says, “I have heard enough”, Likewise there is unarguable evidence that we fell from Vaikuntha and I am not interested in entertaining any conclusion that does not acknowledge it. Back to godhead means back to godhead!
As Akruranatha Prabhu kindly referred to my most dear Spiritual Master, Sri Srimad Gour Govinda Maharaja abiding by the conclusion of the scriptures, of our Parampara and of his revered Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada, in regards to Jiva Tattva, I will simply provide you with his own answer as follows,
In 1994, Rasananda Swami wrote to Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja asking about his own understanding on the subject of the Origin of the Jiva.
Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja replied to his letter in this way:
“The resolution that you have quoted has been passed by our GBC, and as such it is meant for all of the members of our society to follow. You ask what is my own, personal conclusion on this matter, so for your own information, I reply as follows:
Srila Prabhupada has on many occasions made different statements about this subject matter. He has also himself drawn the conclusion. When the conclusion is given, it is to be understood that whatever might have been said before, if it may appear to be different from that conclusion, for what ever reason, is now cancelled. The conclusion is what stands.
For example, Srila Prabhupada gives the following conclusions regarding the origin of the jiva.
‘The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha, for it is the eternal abode.’ (SB 3.16.26 purport)
‘The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ (SB 4.30.5 purport)
What is Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion, that is what I accept. I accept Srila Prabhupada’s own conclusion, that is all”.
Once, Tamal Krishna Maharaja stated about Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja: “He knows more about Sastras than all of us put together…!”
Yet, from the above, we can see that the answer of Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja is deliberately non-controversial.
He knows the answer of Sastras and of our previous acaryas and he knows Srila Prabhupada knows the same and abides by the same conclusion in regards to the origin of the jivas, which he specifically outlined himself in writing. So, he simply quotes Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion and abides by Srila Prabhupada’s own conclusion.
It is as simple as that.
“Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura comments that saralatā, or simplicity, is the first qualification of a Vaiṣṇava, whereas duplicity or cunning behavior is a great offense against the principles of devotional service.” (C.c. Antya. 2.117 – Purport)
Besides, to the question “If we see some apparent contradiction(s) in between the teachings of Sastras and of our previous Acaryas in our Parampara, on one hand, and SOME of the statements of Srila Prabhupada, while OTHERS, if not MOST, abide by the teachings of higher authorities, on the other hand”, we should rather conclude that we have not fully understood the intention and siddantha, as presented by Srila Prabhupada.
Thus, with all honesty at our command, we have to humbly acknowledge that there was a time when we were new devotees (may this have been during Srila Prabhupada’s physical presence or later on) and that teachings in a simple or curative form had to be delivered to us then, before we could understand Tattva in a more refined and subtle way, while being hopefully able to resolve, for the most advanced students, apparent contradictions, yet not in a speculative manner, but according to Guru, Saddhus and Sastras.
Concerning the doubts of our dear friend Akruranatha Prabhu in regards to the abiliity of Sri Guru and thus of Srila Prabhupada as well, to trick or even delude, so to speak, people in general and some of his disciples or followers in particular, we have to take into considerations different aspects.
First of all, we have to understand that this capacity emanates from Krishna Himself:
I am also the gambling of cheats, and of the splendid I am the splendor. I am victory, I am adventure, and I am the strength of the strong. (B.g. 10.36)
PURPORT
There are many kinds of cheaters all over the universe. Of all cheating processes, gambling stands supreme and therefore represents Krishna. As the Supreme, Krishna can be more deceitful than any mere man. If Krishna chooses to deceive a person, no one can surpass Him in His deceit. His greatness is not simply one-sided — it is all-sided.
So, undoubtedly, for preaching purpose, Srila Prabhupada, as an expert and merciful teacher, presented things in a certain way:
For instance Kanchanbala dasi recalls:
I remember one devotee asked Srila Prabhupada, “Have you told us all the rules and regulations?”
Prabhupada answered, “If I told you everything, you’d faint.”
She then concludes: He clearly gave us much room to toddle along.
Hre is a clear answer to the question: Is a Devotee Simple or Crooked?
Going on a morning walk with Srila Prabhupada was never dull. Sometimes His Divine Grace wouldn’t say a word, chanting japa throughout the walk. This disappointed some disciples who did not often get such an opportunity. They sometimes asked a question, hoping that Srila Prabhupada would engage in a debate or conversation, but this was risky business. Srila Prabhupada was never subject to our whims. Sometimes he gave a short response to such questions and continued to walk in silence.
One day, however, Srila Prabhupada was in a talkative, humorous mood.
“Is a devotee simple or crooked?” he asked smiling.
“He is simple, Srila Prabhupada,” one disciple answered.
“Are you sure? Is he simple or crooked?” He again asked with a playful gleam in his eye.
“Yes, a devotee is simple!” the disciple enthusiastically responded, not realizing he had fallen for a trick question.
Srila Prabhupada then sprang the unexpected punch line.
“Actually, the devotee is crooked!” Everyone stood there with their mouths gaping.
“Take me for example,” Srila Prabhupada explained. “I came to your country and everyone was eating meat, taking intoxication, and doing so much nonsense. I tricked everyone. I’ve tricked all of you into becoming Krsna Conscious. So, in that sense the devotee must be crooked, because he must be able to trick. Just like I have tricked everyone. No one wanted Krsna Consciousness, but I have tricked you.”
Srila Prabhupada was the acarya. He taught us by example. And, again, on the morning walk, he demonstrated the art of tricking us.
Morning Walk, Perth, Australia
or:
Tamala Krsna: He tricks them. In the guise of teaching a little hatha-yoga, then he teaches bhakti.
Prabhupada: That is preaching.
Brahmananda Maharaja: You also tricked us, Srila Prabhupada. When you came to New York, you were just chanting Hare Krsna and speaking Bhagavad Gita. And we came and we listened, and then you took everything. You took our lives, all of our money; we left our family. (Everyone laughed. Prabhupada laughed out loud.)
Prabhupada: There is one Bengali word, “Enter like a needle and come out like a plow.” (All laughed.) If you say in the beginning, “I am a plow,” they will never allow you to enter. Say, “I am a needle.” This way, try to serve Krsna. He’ll give all intelligence. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam.
Vrindavana – Oct. 9, 1977
Of course, we know that Krishna Himself has used different preaching strategies to the extent of even propagating false doctrines, in order to serve the ultimate welfare of humanity, while observing a gradual process, so as to mercifully lead the conditioned souls back in the right direction:
Dr. Patel: Do you think, in your opinion, mayavada was a necessity to undo all the bad effect of the degenerated Buddhism? This followed some three, four or seven hundred years after Gautama Buddha.
Prabhupada: No, it… It might be necessity for the time being. Buddhism also was a necessity for the time being. They are not for all. Emergency. Just like it is going on, “emergency.” It is not necessity, but sometimes we have to take emergency. Otherwise how Vaisnavas are worshiping Lord Buddha? Eh? Nindasi yajna-vidher ahaha sruti-jatam: “You are always deriding the Vedic principles,” sruti-jatam. Sadaya-hrdaya-darsita-pasu-ghatam. This is emergency, that “You have become so much compassionate upon the poor animals because they are unnecessarily being killed.” Kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira, jaya jagadisa. He is glorifying, kesava dhrta-buddha-sarira, but showing that “You are deriding Vedic principles.” So how is that, if one derides Vedic principle, at the same time, jaya jagadisa hare?
Dr. Patel: Because the Vedic principles were not properly understood by those people at that time.
Prabhupada: No, no, no. He directly said, “I don’t care for the Vedas.” Lord Buddha says. So who will worship a person who directly says, “I don’t care for your Vedas”? Shall you go to worship a Buddhist or Mohammedan? No. This is emergency. Sadaya-hrdaya-darsita pasu-ghatam. He cannot deride the Vedic principle, but it was necessary at the time. Otherwise these rascals will not stop.
(Bombay, Nov. 17, 1975)
and,
Prabhupada: “Shankara’s purpose was to defeat Buddhism, and to do so he preached an impersonalist philosophy, stressing Brahman. Buddha appeared in order to put an end to animal killing done in the name of Vedic ritual. In Srimad-Bhagavatam, he is accepted as the ninth incarnation of Krishna.”
(Conversation with Allen Ginsberg)
In some other context, Srila Gour Govinda Swami also explains:
“One who can inculcate pure loving devotion unto you, he is a real guru.
He who has given me prema-bhakti at the lotus feet of Krishna, he is my supreme friend, he is my eternal father and mother. He is a real guru. If you tread this path of prema-bhakti then there is no fear of death, no fear of Yamaraj. No fear. So he has saved me from the clutches of Maya, clutches of Yamaraja. Those who cannot given me prema-bhakti at the lotus feet of Krishna, their guruship is partial guruship he who has made me realize this eternity eternal servitude ship is my eternal guru, real guru — he has establish my relationship with that Supreme Eternal.
“So one who is completely cent percent surrendered unto the lotus feet of such a guru, who is fortunate enough and has gotten such a guru he will get the mercy. He is really fortunate soul. But if that disciple develops duplicity and is superficial, not serious in the heart only showing outwardly, yes, yes, “Gurudeva shower your mercy on me…” just outwardly showing and speaking from the lips but inside there is a different mood. There is duplicity there. He deserves cheating, not mercy therefore sadhu guru has two things kripa and vancana, mercy and cheating. So what you deserve will come to you. And Krishna knows the heart if really in your heart you are purified. If duplicity is there then your heart is contaminated. All your activities are only for show, only outward and based on duplicity then you deserve cheating. you cannot get the mercy.
…/…
This are the eight things. This is the instruction of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Goswami Prabhupada Maharaja.
Thank you.
I think you have gotten something at least 30%. It is very difficult to understand. It isn’t an easy thing but it is the most important. Unless your heart is purified, unless your consciousness is purified, you cannot understand. There is no question of understanding and Kaviraj Goswami says apana sodhite for my own purification i will write. Not for my material purpose or material gain. It is for the pleasure of Guru and Gauranga. Then the heart will be purified. Then you can understand it. Otherwise you cannot understand.”
(Bhubaneswar – March 18, 1993)
So, ultimately, to understand Tattva, in the line of our Parampara, it boils down to:
ye yathā māḿ prapadyante
tāḿs tathaiva bhajāmy aham
As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly.
(B.g. 4.11)
Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself states:
jivera-svarupa hay krsnera nitya dasa
jivera tatashta sakti bhedabheda prakasa
The constitutional position of the jiva is to be the eternal servant of Krsna. He is the marginal potency of Krsna and simultaneously different and non-different from Him. (Cc. Madhya.20.108)
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur elaborately explains in Jaiva Dharma – Chapter 15 – Prameya: Jiva-Tattva:
Vrajanatha said, “Prabhu, when I remember your sweet instructions, my heart becomes restless and the entire world seems to be devoid of all substance. My heart is becoming eager to take shelter at Sri Gaurangadeva’s lotus feet. Please be merciful to me and tell me who I really am according to tattva, and why I have come to this world.”
Babaji: My dear son, you have blessed me by asking such a question. The day that the jiva first asks this question is the auspicious day on which his good fortune arises. If you will kindly hear the fifth sloka of Dasa-mula, all your doubts will be dispelled.
sphulingah rddhagner iva cid-anavo jiva-nicayah
hareh suryasyaivaprthag api tu tad-bheda-visayah
vase maya yasya prakrti-patir evesvara iha
sa jivo mukto ‘pi prakrti-vasa-yogyah sva-gunatah
Just as many tiny sparks burst out from a blazing fire, so the innumerable jivas are like atomic, spiritual particles in the rays of the spiritual sun, Sri Hari. Though these jivas are non-different from Sri Hari, they are also eternally different from Him. The eternal difference between the jiva and Isvara is that Isvara is the Lord and master of maya-sakti, whereas the jiva can fall under the control of maya, even in his liberated stage, due to his constitutional nature.
(Note: liberated stage here refers to impersonal liberation, i.e. Brahman realisation)
Vrajanatha: This is an exceptional siddhanta, and I would like to hear some Vedic evidence to support it. Sri Bhagavan’s statements are certainly Veda, but still, people will be bound to accept the teachings of Mahaprabhu if the Upanisads can substantiate this principle.
Babaji: This tattva is described in many places in the Vedas. I will cite a few of them:
yathagneh ksudra visphulinga vyuccaranti
evam evasmad atmanah sarvani bhutani vyuccaranti
Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (2.1.20)
Innumerable jivas emanate from para-brahma, just like tiny sparks from a fire.
Further,
tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane
bhavata idan ca paraloka-sthanan ca
sandhyam trtiyam svapna-sthanam
tasmin sandhye sthane tisthann ete ubhe
sthane pasyatidan ca paraloka-sthanan ca
Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.9)
There are two positions about which the jiva-purusa should inquire – the inanimate material world, and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, which is a dreamlike condition (svapna-sthana), and is the juncture (tatastha) between the other two. Being situated at the place where the two worlds meet, he sees both the jada-jagat (inert world) and the cid-jagat (spiritual world).
This sloka describes the marginal nature of jiva-sakti. Again, it is said in Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad (4.3.18):
tad yatha maha-matsya ubhe kule ‘nusancarati
purvan caparan caivam evayam purusa etav ubhav antav
anu sancarati svapnantan ca buddhantan ca
Just as a large fish in a river sometimes goes to the eastern bank and sometimes to the western bank, so the jiva, being situated in karana-jala (the water of cause that lies between the inert and conscious worlds), also gradually wanders to both banks, the place of dreaming and the place of wakefulness.
Vrajanatha: What is the Vedantic meaning of the word tatastha?
Babaji: The space between the ocean and the land is called the tata (shore), but the place that touches the ocean is actually nothing but land, so where is the shore? The tata is the line of distinction separating the ocean and the land, and it is so fine that it cannot be seen with the gross eyes. If we compare the transcendental realm to the ocean, and the material world to the land, then tata is the subtle line that divides the two, and the jiva-sakti is situated at the place where the two meet. The jivas are like the countless atomic particles of light within the sunrays. Being situated in the middle place, the jivas see the spiritual world on one side and the material universe created by maya on the other. Just as Bhagavan’s spiritual sakti on one side is unlimited, maya-sakti on the other side is also very powerful. The innumerable subtle (suksma) jivas are situated between these two. The jivas are marginal by nature because they have manifested from Krsna’s tatasthasakti (marginal potency).
Then, in Chapter 16 of Jaiva Dharma, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur further explains:
Vrajanatha said, “Please explain to me, if the jiva is a pure spiritual entity, how did he become entangled in this miserable world?”
Babaji smiled and said :
svaruparthair hinan nija-sukha-paran krsna-vimukhan
harer maya-dandyan guna-nigada-jalaih kalayati
tatha sthulair lingai dvi-vidhavaranaih klesa-nikarair
mahakarmalanair nayati patitan svarga-nirayau
(Dasa-mula, Sloka 6)
By his original nature the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna. His svarupa-dharma is service to Sri Krsna. Bhagavan’s bewildering energy (maya) punishes those jivas who are bereft of that svarupa-dharma.
These jivas are diverted from Krsna, and are concerned with their own happiness. She binds them in the ropes of the three modes of material nature sattva, rajah and tamah – covers their svarupa with gross and subtle bodies, throws them into the miserable bondage of karma, thus repeatedly causing them to experience happiness and distress in heaven and hell.
(Note: The real explanation comes below)
Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-sakti, they are always strong. They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called maya or not. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya is very far away from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.
There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jivas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Maha-Visnu’s glance upon His mayasakti. Since these jivas are situated next to maya, they perceive her wonderful workings. Although they have all the qualities of the jivas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world.
…/…
In this marginal condition, the jiva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (seva-vastu). Among these unlimited jivas, those who want to enjoy maya become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha.
On the other hand, the jivas who perform cidanusilanam of Bhagavan receive spiritual sakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. Baba!
It is our great misfortune that we have forgotten our service to Sri Krsna, and have become bound in the shackles of maya. Only because we have forgotten our constitutional position, are we in this deplorable condition.”
Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I understand that this marginal position is situated in tatastha-svabhava, or junction, of the spiritual and material worlds. Why is it that some jivas go from there to the material world, while others go to the spiritual world?
Babaji: Krsna’s qualities are also present in the jivas, but only in a minute quantity. Krsna is supremely independent, so the desire to be independent is eternally present in the jivas as well. When the jiva uses his independence correctly, he remains disposed towards Krsna, but when he misuses it, he becomes vimukha (indifferent) to Him. It is just this indifference that gives rise to the desire in the jiva’s heart to enjoy maya. Because of the desire to enjoy maya, he develops the false ego that he can enjoy material sense gratification, and then the five types of ignorance – tamah (not knowing anything about the spirit soul), moha (the illusion of the bodily concept of life), maha-moha (madness for material enjoyment), tamisra (forgetfulness of one’s constitutional position due to anger or envy) and andha-tamisra (considering death to be the ultimate end) – cover his pure, atomic nature. Our liberation or subjugation simply depends on whether we use our minute independence properly, or misuse it.”
For more nectar, please feel free to consult on your own these fundamental teachings by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur, as consigned in Jaiva Dharma.
Hare Krishna
Affectionately yours in seva
Das dasanudasa
Puskaraksa das
We should read Srila Prabhupada’s books with an open mind and not be so prone to the mood of debating on the strength of one or another favorite Vaisnava authorities (to the exclusion of others).
Very often in Srila Prasbhupada’s Bhaktivedanta Purports we read that “Sridhar Swami says this”, “Jiva Goswami says that”, “Visvanatha Cakravarti says something else.”
In these passages, Srila Prabhupada is not asking us to reject what one or another acarya is saying. He is teaching that there may be different angles of illumination, and that reading Srimad-Bhagavatam is not a kind of static or wooden activity to establish the supremacy of a specific doctrine. Rather, our reading should inculcate a mood of humility and submissive hearing and appreciation for all our predecessor acaryas and their merciful explanations of a mysterious, wonderful, living, breathing subject matter. Such reading is a dynamic devotional activity.
I may not have made myself clear above when I cited an unnamed sannyasi who taught me something that sounds a little different from what I have heard from Srila Prabhupada about the possibility of getting eternally situated in sayujya-mukti. My point was that we ought to be able to consider such statements with an open mind, while at the same time perhaps reserving judgment, thinking, “Hmm, that sounds a little different from what I have heard in Srila Prabhupada’s books.”
There have been times in ISKCON when devotees felt the need to strongly establish Srila Prabhupada’s authority against challenges, real or perceived, from his godbrothers or from upstart disciples. I understand and sympathize with those who acted to preserve order and authority in historical times of crisis.
Yet I think such crises are behind us. Who in our circle would doubt Srila Prabhupada’s great authority and stature as a specially empowered world acarya and deep Vaisnava philosopher?
I would like to see the tone of discourse be more open, more willing to accept that there may be other bona fide angles of Vaisnava vision. We do not have to run to the barricades at the first hint of any apparent inconsistency. We should have a more philosophical and humble rather than doctrinaire and belligerent turn of mind, at least in dealing with other Gaudiya Vaisnavas (or even, as in this case, competing statements made by Srila Prabhupada himself).
We can be stern against the atheists, but give Vaisnavas the benefit of the doubt.
Akuranatha Prabhu,
The best source for a complete explanation of this topic is found in Srila Prabhupada Siksamrts Volume 2 Pages 1157 to 1176. This is where we find the “Crow and tal fruit letter”. This may be the grounds for saying Srila Prabhupada, “also says, as to whether we came down from brahma-sayujya or from Krishna’s lila, “both may be possible”. But you fail to include that Srila Prabhupada clarified the point, “ BECAUSE HE FALLS FROM BRAHMA- SAYUJA HE THINKS THAT MAY BE HIS ORIGIN, BUT HE DOES NOT REMEMBER THE BEFORE THAT EVEN HE WAS WITH KRISHNA , (crow-and-tal-fruit letter Sikshamrta Volume 2 pages 1771-1774 capataliztion added.)).
SRILA PRABHUPADA EXPLICITLY STATES THAT THINKING THE BRAHMA SAYUJA IS THE ORIGIN IS WRONG AND WE WERE ORIGINALLY WITH KRISHNA! To leave out the clarification and suggest the conclusion is , “both may be possible” is a distortion of what Srila Prabhupada actually said, and it is this type of distortion, combined with a plea for open-mindedness that precipitates, “Crow and tal fruit logic
If we look at the crow- and-tal-fruit letter we find that Srila Prabhupada first makes it absolutely clear that that we were once in Krishna Loka, “Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport”, and later in the letter he orders the avoidance of crow-and-tal fruit logic. In accordance with this prescription I am suggesting we first accept Srila Prabhupada’s unarguable statements (we fell from Krishna Loka) and accept that the more detailed aspects are beyond our comprehension at this point. In contrast, you say, “better to look at all statements and harmonize them than to dig in our heels about whose statements are more authoritative. We cannot avoid crow-and-tal-fruit logic while trying to harmonize all the aspects, because many of these aspects are beyond our comprehension. We should just accept the unarguable; we were previously with Krishna.
Fact 1.
If we do a vedabase search for “back to godhead” in quotations, selecting just Srila Prabhupadas books (no letters, lectures, or conversations) we get 964 hits.
Fact 2.
Srila Prabhupada is teaching us to go back to a position of eternal personal rasa with Krishna.
Fact 3.
We can’t go back if we were never there.
Conclusion:
Srila Prabhupada teaches us were previously in the spiritual world. It is the logical conclusion.
But there are those who will say that Krishna Consciousness is beyond logic. We could then takes side, some citing Srila Prabhupada saying mundane logic is not sufficient to understand Krishna, others citing Srila Prabhupada recommending logic. We could debate this forever. Some find this type of debate enjoyable.
But let us remember we are a preaching movement. Many people find these arguments repugnant and frustrating. Spiritual seekers are looking for answers not unlimited questions and riddles. So I request those who thrive on false dilemmas to refrain from problematizing this logical and obvious conclusion. Do not play games with topics that most take very seriously. Find some other topics to wrangle about and let the logical and obvious conclusion be accepted. Please!
Akurantha Prabhu,
You say:
I would like to see the tone of discourse be more open, more willing to accept that there may be other bona fide angles of Vaisnava vision. We do not have to run to the barricades at the first hint of any apparent inconsistency. We should have a more philosophical and humble rather than doctrinaire and belligerent turn of mind.
I do not disagree. I do not say that it is wrong to say we never fall from the spiritual world. I have given my understanding of what it means, you are free to give yours. . But, at the same time we cannot deny we were in the spiritual world before being conditioned without directly contradicting Srila Prabhupada.It is belligerent to deny either vision. But you seem to be saying it is okay to deny we were previously there. How is this open minded? How is this justified based on Srila Prabhupada’s statements?
Sure, the higher understanding is- different angles of vision can be equally bonafide. Children first learn that you cannot subtract a larger number from a smaller number. Then later they learn it is possible subtract a larger number from the smaller number. But still, if you have three apples you cannot take away four apples. The elementary principal cannot be negated. If one cannot understand that the higher principal does not negate the elementary principal it means they have not understood the elementary principal and are not ready for the higher one.
So I am not closed minded or belligerent. I am open to other angles of vision. We cannot deny that we never fall from the spiritual world but it is equally belligerent to deny that we were previously there.
Akruranath Prabhu, it is not a matter of quoting one’s favourite Vaishnava authorities, so to speak, as if it was more or less the same as quoting one’s favourite writers…!
What apparently some may fail to understand or accept, is the principle of authority, as well as the principle of Parampara…!
In this regard, we have to understand that a disciple is for ever the servant of his sat guru, be it in the material world or in the spiritual world, even if he has performed a tremendous seva in the course of his guruship in the material world.
First of all, one cannot (and should not) become guru on his own initiative. Only if one receives the order from the previous acarya to become guru can one be authorised and thus bona fide (no self-appointed guru can be bona fide). Then, even if one is fully authorised by the previous acarya (who has himself been ordered to become guru by his own authorised guru and so on and so forth) and is thus bona fide, he will never take the credit on himself for any of his achievements, understanding rather that anything and everything was possible by the mercy of his Gurudeva, combined with the mercy of all the previous Acaryas (who have also authorised him) and of Sri Nityananda Prabhu (who is the adi-Guru) and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, i.e. of Sri-Sri Krishna-Balarama, not to forget Srimati Radharani who is Bhakti-Devi, the mother and source of all bhakti…
So, a sat shisya, a bona fide disciple will never deviate from the teachings of Sastras and of the previous Acaryas, i.e. of the Parampara…!
Hence, whatever Srila Prabhupada may have said in the course of his preaching, including his formula “Back to Godhead” (Godhead including its three aspects, namely Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan), is to be understood in this context. Now, the wise and learned students will accept his conclusion, as well as his many statements which are perfectly in line with the teachings of Guru, Sastras and Saddhus. Other formulas may left open either as transcendental tricks or, with all due respect, as something which is beyond our capacity to grasp and understand, if they apparently contradict all the unanimous teachings of Sastras and of our previous Acaryas. Yet, if one is simple, as exemplified by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja, he or she will simply accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion:
‘The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ (SB 4.30.5 purport)
One may also take the example of the maha-mantra. In that regard, Srila Prabhupada once stated the following on Radhastami:
So our request is. Everyone who is present here. Today is Radhastami. So pray to Radharani. And She is hare, hara. This hare, this word, is Radharani. Hara, Radharani. Radha or hara the same thing. So Hare Krsna. So we are praying to Radharani, “My Mother, Radharani, and Krsna.” Hare Krsna. “O Krsna, O the Lord.” Hare Krsna Hare Krsna, the same thing, repetition. “O Radharani, O Krsna.” “O Radha-Krsna.” “Radhe-Krsna” or “Hare Krsna,” the same thing. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare. Again addressing, “O Krsna, O Krsna, O Radharani.” Hare Rama. The same thing, again. Hare Rama. Rama is also Krsna.
Rama is Rama, Rama is Balarama. They are all Krsna.
Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare. So this repetition of addressing Radha and Krsna or Hare Krsna is to pray, “My dear Lord, the, and the energy, the spiritual energy of the Lord, kindly engage me in Your service.” That’s all. “I am now embarrassed with this material service. Please engage me in Your service.”
Now, from this, one may retain that Rama is Krishna, but some may argue that no, Rama is Balarama or no, Rama is Ramachandra…! Moreover, in this context, everyone may argue that Srila Prabhupada said so…!
But it is mentioned in the Puranas that ‘three Names of Rama (Ramachandra) equal one Name of Krsna.’ Nevertheless, those who believe that Rama refers to Ramachandra generally prefer to chant the line Hare Rama before the line Hare Krishna, arguing that Ramachandra has appeared before Krishna and should thus be awarded priority…!
Besides, for the followers of Sankaracarya, the Name ‘Hare’ means Hari – He who takes away one’s karma, material desire and illusion (maya).
But for the Gaudiya Vaishnavas, as Srila Prabhupada explains, Hare is the vocative case of Hara, the internal pleasure potency of Krsna. Thus Hare means Srimati Radharani. Hence, in the Name of Rama within the Hare Krsna mantra, the Gaudiya Vaisnavas do not see any connection with Rama-lila. Rather they see only Radha-ramana Rama. That means, ‘Krsna, who gives pleasure (raman) to Srimati Radharani.’ Otherwise, in this case, it would be rasa-abhasa to associate Srimati Radharani with Ramachandra or Balarama…!
Despite Srila Prabhupada having a very liberal approach,
“If someone calls Lord Ramacandra by the vibration Hare Rama, understanding it to mean “O Lord Ramacandra!” he is quite right. Similarly, if one says that Hare Rama means “O Sri Balarama!” he is also right. Those who are aware of the visnu-tattva do not fight over all these details.”
(Cc. Adi 5.132 – Purport)
he cannot be in contradiction with his own Gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Maharaja Prabhupada:
“According to the mood of aisvarya, ‘Rama’ refers to Ramacandra, the son of Dasaratha. According to the mood of madhurya, ‘Rama’ refers to Krsna, the relisher of Sri Radha’s association. Whenever the Name ‘Rama’ indicates service to Radha-ramana Krsna, then the word ‘Hare’ which is the vocative form of Hara, refers to Sri Radharani, who is the origin of all spiritual potencies. Sri Radha is known as Hara because She attracts the mind of Krsna. Hari means ‘attracter’. Hare is the vocative form of the word ‘Hara’.
There are three Ramas – Rama, the husband of Sita-devi, Rama the husband of Revati and Rama, the lover of Radha.”
(Sri Srila Prabhupader Upadesamrta)
Indeed,
yei yei rupe jane, sei taha kahe
sakala sambhave krsne, kichu mithya nahe
In whatever form one knows the Lord, one speaks of Him in that way. In this there is no falsity, since everything is possible in Krsna. (Cc. Adi 5.132)
Thus, what may differ is the destination one may attain by chanting the Holy Names in a certain mood, as per one’s nitya-rasa…
The next individual question which may arise, may then be of one’s personal mood and destination…
But this is another story, and this revelation may arise in due course of time, only when:
krsna-name bhakta kabhu jada-buddhi kore na
anartha na gele name rupa dekha deya na
“The genuine devotee never maintains materialistic conceptions about the Holy Name of Krsna. If the deviations that impede devotional service (anarthas) have not been expelled, then the chanting of the Holy Name will never reveal the beautiful form of the Lord.”
(Prakrta-rasa-sata-dusini, v.29)
“Fact 3: We can’t go back if we were never there.”
Sita Rama Prabhu, it is this premise of your syllogism that I question.
It may be “common sense” that we cannot go “back” to a “place” we have “never” been, but this common sense is derived from our experience as conditioned souls. Transcendental time defies our common expectations.
“Babaji: The time and space present in the spiritual world is different from the time and space you experience now in the material world. In the material world, time has three phases: past, present and future. In the spiritual world, time is not nroken in that way. There, time is an eternal present. In the spiritual world, things do not come into being. Everything exists in an eternal present.
“When we who are living in the world of material time and space try to describe the spiritual world, we tend to say things like, ‘The individual souls were created,’ ‘the individual souls were imprisoned by maya,’ ‘the spiritual world was manifested,’ and ‘the individual souls are spiritual and were not created by maya.’ When we talk in these ways, we certainly show how much we are influenced by staying in this world of material time.
“As long as we stay in maya’s prison we cannot avoid talking in this way. That is why, when we describe the individual souls, or the nature of of spirit, we cannot avoid speaking in terms of material time. Therefore we tend to speak in terms of past and future. Therefore, a person who tries to understand the spiritual world properly tries to speak of an eternal present.”
Jaiva-dharma, trans. by Kusakratha Dasa, ed. by Purnaprajna Dasa, 2006, Pub. Rasbihari Lal & Sons, Chapter 15, pp. 268-269.
For me that resolves the mystery.
On the one hand we have such a great personality as Gour Govinda Swami saying that when Srila Prabhupada said “The conclusion is no one ever falls from Vaikuntha”, his use of the word “conclusion” was intended to mean that this is the siddhanta, the final word, our party line.
On the other hand we have devotees saying, “But Srila Prabhupada also explicitly explained that we were previously with Krishna in His lila.”
I think we have to examine our own notion of “previously”, “never”, “again become nitya siddha”, and similar concepts, as being bound to material notions of past and future.
It is better to remain humble and say “there may be things here I cannot grasp” than to indirectly (or directly) criticize great devotees and scriptures.
Dear moderators. Please discard my last two comments and just post this edited one.
I intend this to be my final statement.
Krishna Consciousness is the understanding that each jiva has a personal loving rasa with Krishna. This relations ship is eternal thus, by definition, it always exists. The conditioned souls have forgotten this relationship. The process of devotional service reawakens this relationship; we remember Krishna.
The phrase Srila Prabhupada writes 964 times in his books, “back to godhead” is consistent with this understanding. Reawakening is the same as going back to a more awake state.
When asked about our original position Srila Prabhupada said that we were with Krishna before being conditioned. He also said that although we may fall from the brahma effulgence, before that we were with Krishna. This is consistent with the statement, “back to godhead” as well as the concept of an eternal relationship.
There is another idea, which is that if one is a conditioned soul it means they have never existed in a state higher than the brahman effulgence(although the goal is to go to the higher state of eternal rasa). This is inconsistent with the concept of eternal rasa with Krishna because eternal mean it always exists and this is saying the rasa does not exist until we develop it. It is also inconsistent with the direct meaning of back to godhead because this phrase denotes a return or reawakening rather than going higher than ever before. Lastly, it is directly opposed to the answers Srila Prabhupada gives in response to the question of our origin.
One may say that our origin does not ultimately matter as long as we know the goal. This is valid. But we have to see for ourselves how accurately someone is presenting Srila Prabhupas teachings. This is a core concept of ISKCON.
Dear Sita Rama Prabhu
Pranams. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
All glories to Sri Guru & Sri Gauranga.
I want to believe that you are sincere and then hopefully are willing to accept all of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings, which ought to include those teachings which are perfectly in line with the teachings of Sastras and of our previous Acaryas, in the Parampara.
Whatever be the case, I thank you at least for your earnest endeavour to present your understanding of the part of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings to some of his young Western born disciples for the most part, which you have been willing to present so far…!
In regards to the question you raise and the doubts you express, let us see if we can assist you, by summarising an answer:
– “Krishna Consciousness is the understanding that each jiva has a personal loving rasa with Krishna. This relations ship is eternal thus, by definition, it always exists.”
Yes, but what is constitutional to the jiva may be manifested or non-manifested, due to the marginal position of the jiva:
jīvera ‘svarūpa’ haya — kṛṣṇera ‘nitya-dāsa’
kṛṣṇera ‘taṭasthā-śakti’ ‘bhedābheda-prakāśa’
sūryāḿśa-kiraṇa, yaiche agni-jvālā-caya
svābhāvika kṛṣṇera tina-prakāra ‘śakti’ haya
“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa because he is the marginal energy of Kṛṣṇa and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Kṛṣṇa has three varieties of energy.
(C.c. Madhya 20.108-109)
PURPORT
Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura explains these verses as follows: Śrī Sanātana Gosvāmī asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, “Who am I?” In answer, the Lord replied, “You are a pure living entity. You are neither the gross material body nor the subtle body composed of mind and intelligence. Actually you are a spirit soul, eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Soul, Kṛṣṇa. Therefore you are His eternal servant. You belong to Kṛṣṇa’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency. You are related with Kṛṣṇa as one and simultaneously different.
…/…
…/…
Because you are spirit soul, you are one in quality with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but because you are a very minute particle of spirit soul, you are different from the Supreme Soul. Therefore your position is simultaneously one with and different from the Supreme Soul. The examples given are those of the sun itself and the small particles of sunshine and of a blazing fire and the small particles of fire.” Another explanation of these verses can be found in Ādi-līlā, Chapter Two, verse 96.
kṛṣṇera svarūpa, āra śakti-traya-jñāna
yāńra haya, tāńra nāhi kṛṣṇete ajñāna
“One who knows the real feature of Śrī Kṛṣṇa and His three different energies cannot remain ignorant about Him. (C.c. Adi-lila 2.96)
PURPORT
Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī states in his Bhagavat-sandarbha (16) that by His potencies, which act in natural sequences beyond the scope of the speculative human mind, the Supreme Transcendence, the summum bonum, eternally and simultaneously exists in four transcendental features: His personality, His impersonal effulgence, particles of His potency (the living beings), and the principal cause of all causes. The Supreme Whole is compared to the sun, which also exists in four features, namely the personality of the sun-god, the glare of his glowing sphere, the sun rays inside the sun planet, and the sun’s reflections in many other objects. The ambition to corroborate the existence of the transcendental Absolute Truth by limited conjectural endeavors cannot be fulfilled, because He is beyond the scope of our limited speculative minds. In an honest search for truth, we must admit that His powers are inconceivable to our tiny brains. The exploration of space has demanded the work of the greatest scientists of the world, yet there are countless problems regarding even fundamental knowledge of the material creation that bewilder scientists who confront them. Such material knowledge is far removed from the spiritual nature, and therefore the acts and arrangements of the Absolute Truth are, beyond all doubts, inconceivable.
…/…
…/…
The primary potencies of the Absolute Truth are mentioned to be three: internal, external and marginal. By the acts of His internal potency, the Personality of Godhead in His original form exhibits the spiritual cosmic manifestations known as the Vaikuṇṭhalokas, which exist eternally, even after the destruction of the material cosmic manifestation. By His marginal potency the Lord expands Himself as living beings who are part of Him, just as the sun distributes its rays in all directions. By His external potency the Lord manifests the material creation, just as the sun with its rays creates fog. The material creation is but a perverse reflection of the eternal Vaikuṇṭha nature.
These three energies of the Absolute Truth are also described in the Viṣṇu Purāṇa, where it is said that the living being is equal in quality to the internal potency, whereas the external potency is indirectly controlled by the chief cause of all causes. Māyā, the illusory energy, misleads a living being as fog misleads a pedestrian by blocking off the light of the sun. Although the potency of māyā is inferior in quality to the marginal potency, which consists of the living beings, who are part and parcel of the Lord, it nevertheless has the power to control the living beings, just as fog can block the actions of a certain portion of the sun’s rays although it cannot cover the sun. The living beings covered by the illusory energy evolve in different species of life, with bodies ranging from that of an insignificant ant to that of Brahmā, the constructor of the cosmos. The pradhāna, the chief cause of all causes in the impersonal vision, is none other than the Supreme Lord, whom one can see face to face in the internal potency. He takes the material all-pervasive form by His inconceivable power. Although all three potencies — namely internal, external and marginal — are essentially one in the ultimate issue, they are different in action, like electric energy, which can produce both cold and heat under different conditions. The external and marginal potencies are so called under various conditions, but in the original, internal potencies there are no such conditions, nor is it possible for the conditions of the external potency to exist in the marginal, or vice versa. One who is able to understand the intricacies of all these energies of the Supreme Lord can no longer remain an empiric impersonalist under the influence of a poor fund of knowledge. (end)
From these two purports, we can see that Srila Prabhupada is perfectly conversant with our previous Acaryas’ teachings and abides by them.
So, why in Tattva, i.e. in depth, would Srila Prabhupada have deviated from our Parampara and our previous Acaryas’ teachings…?
Hence, we have to differentiate in between what is Absolute consideration, Tattva-vicar, and is thereby in line with Sastras and our previous Acaryas in the Parampara, and what is apparent or relative consideration, Apara-vicar, and is dependent on time, place and circumstances, and is related to preaching to some particular individual persons, who need to be delivered a specific prescription to cure their material disease.
So, as mentioned earlier, Godhead having three features, namely Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan, “Back to Godhead” is not equivalent to “Back to Krishna” or “Back to Krishna-loka or Goloka-Vrindavana”, or “Back to Vaikuntha”.
In the end, as mentioned on some parallel discussion, one may believe what suits one best, as long as it helps one progress along the devotional path.
So, if it helps you to think that you once left the All-Attractive Madan-Mohan, Srimati Radharani, the Gopis and the Gopas, while entertaining the fear that you could fall again and over again (according to the same logic), or leave whatever Vaikuntha planet you might have been living on (as if some illusion could enter your mind in a perfect realm, untouched and unapproachable by Maya), then good for you…!
But, please, do not indulge in some form of proselytism to try and convince others of something other than Srila Prabhupada’s own conclusions and absolute teachings (in accordance with Sastras and our Parampara), while presenting a one-sided aspect of the pedagogy he used in relation to inducing some of his new disciples to progress along the path of Bhakti-yoga.
So, let us use the same preaching strategy as Srila Prabhupada did, and let us invite everyone to go back home, back to Godhead…!
as well as, Chant Hare Krishna and be happy…!
In other words, let us be progressive in our preaching. Even if after some 30 or 40 years, these topics are still puzzling, so what to speak of new comers, unless they may have been especially enlightened and blessed in some past lives, as well as in this one, by the direct association with a pure devotee.
sadhu-sanga’, ‘sadhu-sanga’ — sarva-sastre kaya
lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya
(C.c. Madhya-lila 22.54)
It is obvious that nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha must be further clarified
Nitya-siddha is when we are in our natural pure bodily state of reality, eternally liberated in Goloka, serving God or Krishna. Nitya-baddha state is when we are in our unnatural impure state of transitory reality eternally conditioned in the mahat tattva, serving one’s selfish interests, unaware of their permanently real nitya-siddha authentic svarupa in Goloka
Nitya siddha and nitya baddha are NOT separate individuals that are eternally in that condition, as some believe. Nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha are both the make-up of EVERY marginal living entity, a nitya siddha (eternally liberated) can become a nitya baddha (eternally conditioned) and a nitya baddha can become a nitya siddha.
Srila Prabhupada – “There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of EVERY marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha” (New York Lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada – “By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can also become siddha. He can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha.” (London lecture on Bhagavad-Gita 13-14, July 14, 1973)
Nitya-siddha is ones original condition, when they choose to miss use their free will and reject their own nitya-siddha body in Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana only then does their ‘conscious awareness’ becomes nitya-baddha in the material creation Srila Prabhupada confirms this in next post
Srila Prabhupada – “Your next question, “Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned.
Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.
Therefore a living entity is called the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968
So the conclusion is originally we were all originally nitya siddha in Goloka Vrndavana
Srila Prabhupada – “As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.
In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains.
Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist. One can choose
This means that when one’s ‘awareness’ is AGAIN situated in the ‘eternal presence’ of ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness covering the jiva tattva in the material creation no longer exists and one is again back in their original position.
Several do not appreciate the accurate details of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using our free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body to chase our material desires.
The truth is we are perpetually in Krishna’s pastimes as nitya-siddha right now, within that ‘eternal presence’ of selfless blissful devotion where nothing factual can perish however, because selfish desires are not a factual reality and not part of the make-up of Goloka or Vaikuntha, they are projected as a spin off real but temporary reality to mahat-tattva (material creation) that is under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu’s dreams.
Being in such self-absorbed mundane thoughts and dreams convince us we are not there with Krishna (as we desired) even though we are ALWAYS with Krishna.
In this way, such egocentric dreams and thoughts, like a veil, block out our connection to Krishna by moving us to the separated mahat-tattva reality of Maha-Vishnu where we become bogged down in ignorance due to being covered by various subtle and gross material bodies.
We therefore experience this secondary nature (nitya-baddha) to our marginal nitya-siddha identity simply because we choose to do so that places us outside of Goloka and within the material creation.
The following Conversation took place in Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974 between Srila Prabhupada and his disciples.
Devotee – “When we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we’re already serving Krishna?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down”.
Devotee – “Srila Prabhupada, I can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material quality…”
Devotee – “In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, “My dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.” But he insists, “Oh, I must go. I must go.” “All right, you go at your risk. That’s all. And you suffer. What can be done?”
Srila Prabhupada – “Because you are Son of God you have got independence, full independence, almighty—therefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere with your little independence”.
Srila Prabhupada – “If you persist that “I must go and enjoy independently,” so God says, “All right, you can go.” This is the position. You have to take sanction. That is a fact. But when you persist, God sanctions. And you come and enjoy”.
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada – “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understand”. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture London July 30, 1971
Some may suggest their own theories and conclusions and fantasise that “they are perpetually in Krishna’s pastimes as nitya-siddha right now”…!
(as in Post 49)
The same may also have a selective analysis and refuse to take into consideration the many written statements where Srila Prabhupada draws conclusions in agreement with Sastras and our line of spiritual authorities in the Parampara, such as:
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world.
(Bhag 3.16.26)
The nitya-siddhas never fall in the realm of the material atmosphere. (Bhag 3.3.26)
A devotee who is in the spiritual abode of the Lord never falls from it. (Bhag 3.15.48)
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Lord, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (Bhag 3.25.29)
The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag 5.11.12)
There are Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual world, and the devotees there are all liberated. These devotees are aksara, which means they don’t fall down into the material world… It is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag 7.1.35)
The eternally liberated souls never come in touch with material energy.
(C.c. Madhya 22.14, 15 and C.c. Madhya 20.269, 270)
Of course, it may be understood that in the course of preaching, one may use various strategies or tricks to make others keep moving forward along the spiritual path: “utility is the principle”
Especially in regards to new devotees, as Giriraja Maharaja recently honestly put it: “When I was a new devotee, maybe less than two years in the movement…”
So, the question may arise: at what point may one not be a new devotee anymore…?
Does that measure in years, and how many years ?
Or in the level of spiritual advancement, which also translates in one’s spiritual understanding…?
Anyhow, it may be easy to wake up someone asleep, whereas it may be very difficult to awaken someone who is engrossed in his own beliefs and even manufactures his own theories… all the more, while defying Sastras and all our previous -Acaryas in our sacred Parampara…!
A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)
In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees) (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)
Srila Rupa Gosvami:
Even the associates of the Lord are described as having eternal forms. (Laghu-bhag. 1.143)
The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)
The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)
Srila Jiva Gosvami:
The third of ten characteristics of Vaikuntha listed by Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhagavat-sandarbha, text 61, is that anyone who has attained Vaikuntha does not fall.
“Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency.”
(Sri Caitanya’s Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur)
A devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls.
(Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)
The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)
The nitya-muktas are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)
A devotee once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down.
(Bhag. 3.16.29, purp.),
cic-chakti, svarūpa-śakti, antarańgā nāma
tāhāra vaibhava ananta vaikuṇṭhādi dhāma
“The cit-śakti, which is also called svarūpa-śakti or antarańga-śakti, displays many varied manifestations. It sustains the kingdom of God and its paraphernalia. (C.c. Ādi 2.101)
māyā-śakti, bahirańgā, jagat-kāraṇa
tāhāra vaibhava ananta brahmāṇḍera gaṇa
“The external energy, called māyā-śakti, is the cause of innumerable universes with varied material potencies (C.c. Ādi 2.102)
jīva-śakti taṭasthākhya, nāhi yāra anta
mukhya tina śakti, tāra vibheda ananta
“The marginal potency, which is between these two, consists of the numberless living beings. These are the three principal energies, which have unlimited categories and subdivisions. (C.c. Ādi 2.103)
“So, why in Tattva, i.e. in depth, would Srila Prabhupada have deviated from our Parampara and our previous Acaryas’ teachings…?”
Puskaraksa Prabhu, I do not think anyone here has said (or would say) that Srila Prabhupada deviated from Parampara and our previous Acaryas’ teachings, in depth or superficially.
Are you implying that the many statements being cited by Gauragopala and others are some kind of “superficial” departure from the Acaryas and Sastras?
If so, please be more explicit, for the purpose of shedding light on the issue: What specific Acaryas and Sastras do Srila Prabhupada’s statements appear to be deviating from?
I remember the issue came to a head when a couple of devotees (who have since left ISKCON) were translating the sandarbhas. One of those devotees sent a lot of angry emails advancing the theory that Srila Prabhupada, in teaching that we have fallen into maya by misusing our marginal independence, was simplifying or tricking western disciples, who were immature. I disagreed.
What I have never seen is a calm, clear explanation of what Jiva Goswami said about these things that is so different from what Srila Prabhupada said.
I think by affirming apparently contradictory things Srila Prabhupada treated us like grown ups.
I do see that Srila Prabhupada addresses these issues over and over again in his books. He talks about how no one can trace when the living entity first came in contact with material energy. He acknowledges we have *always* misused our independence (and that some souls never do). There does seem to be something inconceivable about it.
There are many statements by many great devotees in their prayers in Srimad Bhagavatam and elsewhere that no one can fully understand Krishna and His inconceivable activities and energies. All of us have experience that we cannot encompass Lord Krishna in the nutshell of our mundane logic. He will create a rock so big that He cannot lift it, and then He will lift it.
The concept of “inconceivable” or “mystery” can be misused in an anti-philosophical way. To say “no one knows” is sometimes a convenient way of deflecting inquiry.
But great devotee-philosophers have pointed out that there really are certain things that cannot be grasped by the human (or jiva) mind in any kind of Cartesian clarity and distinctness. A true philosopher should know all about inconceivability, the contours and limits of philosophical understanding.
Of course, Srila Prabhupada knows Tattva and is perfectly conversant with the verdict of Sastras and with what his (and our) spiritual authorities have stated. This is why he wrote so many statements accordingly and drew his conclusion in their line.
To the contrary, to ignore or to disregard Sastras, our Parampara and Srila Prabhupada’s purports and repeated conclusion would be an offense.
Now, if to try and save some souls one has to verbally explain things in a certain way (tailor made), then so be it. This is the prescription of the expert doctor.
Beyond, according to their nature and their conditioning, some may prefer one version over the other.
For some, Krishna is not the All Attractive and Srimati Radharani is not Madan-Mohan-Mohini, and they can conceive of leaving them and all the nitya-siddhas in the spiritual world at any time.
Actually, I would agree so as to stop raving on and on over this topic alike the one of the crow and the tall fruit, that at the level of a conditioned soul, it’s mere speculation to elaborate and even debate about all that.
So, either we accept Srila Prabhupada’s conclusion (in the footsteps of
his pure devotee disciple/s) in accordance with Guru, Sastras and Saddhus or we accept other explanations provided verbally as per the person inquiring, at a given time, if they satisfy us better, for the time being.
Best anyhow is to try and become pure devotees ourselves, by the mercy of another pure devotee.
As it is our process.
For, who has ever gotten Krishna prema, without the mercy of a premi bhakta ?
As Narottama dasa Thakur says,
chadiya vaisnava-seva
nistara peyeche keba
Without serving a self-realized Vaisnava,
no one has ever been able to reach the ultimate goal…!
My Dear Puskaraska Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obiesances.
All glories to Srila Prabhuda
You qoute me , “Krishna Consciousness is the understanding that each jiva has a personal loving rasa with Krishna. This relations ship is eternal thus, by definition, it always exists.”
and then you respond, “Yes, but what is constitutional to the jiva may be manifested or non-manifested, due to the marginal position of the jiva”
I am glad to see we agree, oh Punditji. This might ruin our relationship except for the fact that being in agreement need not stop us from debating the issue.
Akuranatha Prabhu,
In comment 54 you say, “The concept of “inconceivable” or “mystery” can be misused in an anti-philosophical way. To say “no one knows” is sometimes a convenient way of deflecting inquiry.” I share this conviction. Please see my comment on the article, “Resting the Jiva-Fall/No – Fall Case” beginning with, and “It is certainly true that we must come to a purified state to understand transcendental knowledge”.
As for your debate with our dear Puskarska Prabhu, I think the word, “trick” triggers opposition because it can denote deception. There is another use of the term, when one is describing the essential expertise involved in function they will say, “the trick is”, this or that.
Srila Prabhupada certainly had unique expertise( he knew the trick) of making the philosophy understandable to the masses of people. The intelligent can describe the correct understanding of the inconceivable in a complex way that can be understood only by the highly literate. Describing it in a simple way, that can be understood by anyone, is super intelligent and is certainly one of Srila Prabhupadas special powers.
“Srila Prabhupada certainly had unique expertise (he knew the trick) of making the philosophy understandable to the masses of people.”
Indeed. And that was always my main gripe with Kundali. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that Srila Prabhupada had really adopted a strategy of explaining things from the “fall” position — as a never-before adopted innovation — to make it easier for people of the modern age to understand. Shouldn’t we, as his disciples, support his strategy?
I do not see any reason to find that the strategy was particularly tailored to westerners as opposed to Hindus, or to hippies as opposed to responsible fruitive workers. Nor is it a strategy of over-simplification. Rather, the Jaiva-Dharma story of tatastha-sakti souls emerging (from nothingness) on a border between Vaikuntha and the realm of karma has a ring of over-simplification to me, as if it is just one angle for viewing a multi-dimensional truth.
In modern science we are familiar with models that serve as heuristic devices, in which an electron may be thought of as being bound by a rubber-band to a proton, or something like that. These mechanical models, though oversimplifications of a hidden reality, enable us to conceptualize and even propose useful further theories. Of course, mundane science is in the realm of ascending knowledge.
In spiritual science, we are also given models, although the models should be accepted as absolutely true. Even if they are “over-simplifcations”, they open our path to devotional service, in the same way that Krsna comes in a Deity form to accept service of neophytes who cannot perceive His imperceptible form.
What I never seem to get from the hard “no fall” advocates is a clear explanation of why they say that Srila Prabhupada’s “fall” statements are so unprecedented. I see such statements in Srimad Bhagavatam and in the writings of previous acaryas, including Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada, Bhaktivinode Thakur, Sanatana Goswami and Lord Caitanya. As disciples of Srila Prabhupada it seems we should be trying to follow and justify his strategies rather than now “exposing” them as tricks.
I am always open to hear why some hard “no-fall” advocates so vigorously assert that Srila Prabhupada’s statements cannot be reconciled with Gaudiya siddhanta, but when I ask them directly they usually seem to just insist, quoting Jaiva Dharma and similar statements. They seem dogmatic, inflexible, blinkered.
When one accepts the direct meaning of the sastra (amnaya vakya) it is understood that the jivas are tattastha-sakti – i.e. they are the marginal potency of Godhead.
BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD states the following about the marginal position of the jiva:
tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane bhavata
idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam
svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete
ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca
“The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds”. (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.9)
tad yatha maha matsya ubhe kule’
nusancarati purvam ca param caivam
evayam purusa etav ubhav antav
anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca
“Just as a large fish living in the river wanders from one bank to the other, so the jiva is of similar quality, and is equipped to wander in the Karana waters between the material and spiritual worlds (svapnanta and buddhanta).” (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.18)
JIVA GOSVAMI writes in his commentary to Sri Brahma-samhita 5.21 and quotes Sri Narada-pancaratra:
yat-tatastham tu cid rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam
ranjitam guna ragena sa jiva iti kathyate
“Although spiritual and conscious by nature, the jiva lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. When it chooses to enter the material world, it becomes contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul.”
BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA writes the following in numerous books:
ubhaya-kula dekhite dekhite bhogecchara udaya
haile tahara cit-surya-svarupa krsna haite bahirmukha haya
“The moment that the jivas desire to enjoy independently while gazing at the two banks of the river, they become averse to Krsna, who is like the sun.”
“It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres.” (Tattva Viveka 2.4,page 55)
“The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord. Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task.” (Mahaprabhura-siksa ch.7)
“Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power.” (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4)
“A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya’s enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world.”
(Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7)
“The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayika-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God.”
(Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, chap. 1, Intro)
“The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayika-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when he becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies that are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss.”
(Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, ch. 7, text 34, purport)
“The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas).”
(Brahma-samhita 10, purl.)
“The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna.”
(Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15)
“The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul’s essential nature that ‘I am Krsna’s servant.’ This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginning-less.” (Jaiva Dharma)
Part 1 of 2
Puskaraska Prabhu,
You mention, “When one accepts the direct meaning of the sastra (amnaya vakya)”
In chapter 21 of Teachings of LordCaitanya ,we find that the Lord first condemned the indirect interpretation of the Mayavadi’s. Then the Mayavadis asked the Lord to explain the direct interpretation and Srila Prabhupada writes, “Being so requested, Lord Caitanya explained each and every verse of Vedänta-sütra according to the direct interpretation.”
Lord Caitanya told them, “… it is the purpose of the Vedänta-sütra to REESTABLISH the living entity’s LOST RELATIONSHIP with the Supreme Lord Kåñëa and to enable him to execute devotional service and ultimately achieve the highest goal of life, love of Godhead. This is the real purpose of Vedänta-sütra”( capitals added).
There is no way to accept the direct meaning of , “reestablish” and “lost relationship” other then we fell from a loving relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world.
In Raja Vidya chapter 6 Srila Prabhupada writes, “That is the whole process of Krishna Consciousness- the REVIVAL of our ORIGINAL SAC- CID- ANANDA BODY (capitals added).
The sac-cid- ananda body is not manifested in the brahma-jyoti or in Maha Vishnu it is manifest in the spiritual world. There is no way to accept the direct meaning of, “revival” other than we fell from our loving relationship with Krishna.
In the same Chapter we read, “and as soon as we REGAIN OUR SPIRITUAL BODY and get out of the contamination of birth and death, we should be qualitatively as good as Kåñëa”(Capitals added).
There is no way to accept the direct meaning of , “regained” other than we fell from our loving relationship with Krishna.
From, Nectar of Devotion, Chapter 9, Further Consideration of Devotional Principals: Submission
“When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be REINSTATED IN THIS POSITION, EITHER AS A FRIEND, SERVANT, PARENT, OR CONJUGAL LOVER(capitals added).
There is no way to accept the direct meaning of, “reinstated” other than we fell from our, “original position” which is either loving Krishna as a servant, friend, parent, or in conjugal love.
SB 10,7,1-2. Purport(Capitals added)
ALL the Vedic literatures presented by Vyäsadeva and other great sages are therefore intended to REVIVE our Kåñëa consciousness, which begins to revive with çravaëa-kértanam.
Part 2 of 2.
Lord Caitanya established the Viasnava sidhanta on the basis of direct meaning but the proponents of the no- fall argument claim, in regard to the writing of Lord Caitanyas most empowered representative, we must deny the direct meaning of reinstated, revive, reestablish, regain, and back.
The main issue is not whether we accept Srila Prabhupada as our authority. That is your dishonest diversionary tactic. He said two different things. You accept one version (and ignore the other) and we accept the other version as being conclusive. It’s as simple as that. Both sides are accepting his authority. You have failed consistently to explain the other side. Here is more proof.
Regarding the fall/no-fall issue, devotees sometimes cite the story of Jaya and Vijaya, which we know is not an example of jivas falling from Vaikuntha – it was a special case. However, everyone seems to forget the question posed by King Yudhisthira to Narada Muni which started the story. In his question, King Yudhisthira establishes the absolute fact that, ” For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.” Even he knew, as did everyone, that no one can fall from Vaikuntha and he was shocked to hear that these two devotees had fallen.
This proves that the prevailing understanding is that it is not possible for devotees to fall from the spiritual realms. That was 5,000 years ago and he was a pure devotee of Krsna and His dear friend. It’s also important to note that Narada Muni did not go on to explain that all of the jivas in the material universes had fallen from Vaikuntha. This would have been an ideal place to present that information, but he said nothing of the sort. In the purport, Srila Prabhupada confirms this fact twice.
Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viṣṇu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.
Srila Prabhupada’s Purport:
In Bhagavad-gītā (8.16) the Lord clearly states, mām upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate: one who is purified of material contamination and returns home, back to Godhead, does not return to this material world. Elsewhere in Bhagavad-gītā (4.9) Kṛṣṇa says:
“One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.” Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, therefore, was surprised that a pure devotee could return to this material world. This is certainly a very important question.
It was the morning after our head-on collision in Mauritius following the programs in South Africa in 1975. Srila Prabhupad, Brahmananda Maharaj, and I were taking the morning walk on the beach. Srila Prabhupad posed the question: “What is the defect in material existence?” I said, “People want to enjoy.” Srila Prabhupad said, “It is natural that they want to enjoy. We are part of Krishna. But, they do not know how to enjoy!” This may shed some insight in a simple and practical way into the discussion above. The jiva souls have the propensity to enjoy being part and parcel of Krishna. But, in trying to enjoy independently of Krishna, the jiva souls cannot remain in the spiritual realm. Srila Prabhupad often gave the example that one must be like fire to enter into fire. Being purely spiritualized in Krishna consciousness, the jiva souls can enter into the spiritual realm to interact with Krishna in rasa.
Time and again while these similar discussions were being debated in Srila Prabhupad’s presence, he would say, “Yes, even in Vaikuntha, if the jiva soul wants to enjoy independently of Krishna, misusing their minute free will, they must fall into the material world.” It was as clear as day!
The brahmajyoti is a fearful position, even if one is liberated from matter. (Arjuna crosses the brahmajyoti with Krishna, and personal testimony in my book, God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker. It is not where you want to be) The Sri Isopanishad describes those who dedicate themselves to become merged into the brahmajyoti as
atma-hana (killers of the soul). No vaishnava will find this a hospitable place even though it is the unlimited bodily effulgence of Sri Krishna. Whether one’s origin is from the brahmajyoti as suggested in the Brahma Samhita and elsewhere, or being injected into the mahatattva by the seed-giving father (aham bija pradah pita), the Lord Himself Personally, the jiva souls have indeed fallen out of love with God and have embraced a form of self-love in their diseased condition. Christ said that one must give up vanity, self adoration, and embrace love of God. This is the proposal. What do you think?
Pusta Krishna das
Uttamasloka,
In comment 64 you cite the verse:
Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viṣṇu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.
You add, ” This proves that the prevailing understanding is that it is not possible for devotees to fall from the spiritual realms”.
What this proves is that the prevailing understanding is that a curse could not affect a liberated Visnu Bhakta with not desire to forget Krishna. And Srila Prabhupada confirms that Jaya and Vijaya were not cursed to fall, rather they were appointed to take part in a specific Krishna Lila.
As stated in a differen tpost, my position is that SrilaPrabhupada’s answers to a leading disciple is more valid than anyone debating the seeming contradictions found in his books. Srila Prabhupada’s answer is the ultimate resolve of any seeming contradictions. Therefore, I have always avoided expanding the irresoluteness of the issue by debating the statements found in the writings of past acharya’s.
But I assumed there must be some rational reason for how devotees have come up with the no-fall position; and I could not suppress my curiosity of just how that might be possible, so I read chapter 15 of, “ Jaiva Dharma” Translated by Narayana Maharaja. Unfortunately this simply increased my wonderment of how anyone could think in this way.
Chapter 15 of Jaiva Dharma ends with:
Vrajanätha: Now, I want to know whether the jéva is completely faultless in the liberated state.
Bäbäjé: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the JIVAS SPIRITUAL FORM MAY BE COVERED through association with the powerful mäyä-çakti. This shows that the constitution of the jéva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jéva mayachieve. That is the inherent nature of jéva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Éçvara is the controller of mäyä, whereas THE JIVA REMAINS ELIGIBLE TO BE CONTROLLED OF MAYA IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES(capitals added).
How can anyone read this and claim that it impossible to fall from Vaikuntha? This is a rhetorical question, so there is no need to try to answer it!
Sita Rama: “Uttamasloka, In comment 64 you cite the verse: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viṣṇu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord’s associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this. You add, ” This proves that the prevailing understanding is that it is not possible for devotees to fall from the spiritual realms”. What this proves is that the prevailing understanding is that a curse could not affect a liberated Visnu Bhakta with not desire to forget Krishna. And Srila Prabhupada confirms that Jaya and Vijaya were not cursed to fall, rather they were appointed to take part in a specific Krishna Lila.”
That is most definitely not the correct understanding of this story in SB. Yudhisthira’s statement refers to any type of fall down as is clear from his words. It does NOT just refer to this curse. This shows that your position is falling apart because you have to resort to world jugglery to support your position.
SR: “As stated in a differen post, my position is that Srila Prabhupada’s answers to a leading disciple is more valid than anyone debating the seeming contradictions found in his books. Srila Prabhupada’s answer is the ultimate resolve of any seeming contradictions. Therefore, I have always avoided expanding the irresoluteness of the issue by debating the statements found in the writings of past acharya’s.”
And this is precisely why your position and presentation are flawed. SP’s books are the first line of proof and everything else comes after that in a weighted hierarchy of importance and relevance. SP stated that himself – his books (only) are his primary legacy. Do you think he wanted the world to read all of his private letters? He did not and said so emphatically. SP’s letters do NOT trump the previous acaryas and to say that shows a lack of philosophical understanding of the importance of the parampara.
I and others are not debating the acaryas’ statements. They are all consistent and in full agreement, as are SP’s statements in his books. There are no inconsistencies in their books and they are in full agreement with sastra and Krsna.
SR: “But I assumed there must be some rational reason for how devotees have come up with the no-fall position; and I could not suppress my curiosity of just how that might be possible, so I read chapter 15 of, “ Jaiva Dharma” Translated by Narayana Maharaja. Unfortunately this simply increased my wonderment of how anyone could think in this way. Babaji: The atomic spiritual form is free from defect, but because of its minute nature, it is inherently weak and therefore incomplete. The only defect in that state is that the JIVAS SPIRITUAL FORM MAY BE COVERED through association with the powerful māyā-śakti. This shows that the constitution of the jīva will always remain incomplete, no matter how elevated a stage the liberated jīva may achieve. That is the inherent nature of jīva-tattva, and that is why it is said in the Vedas that Īśvara is the controller of māyā, whereas THE JIVA REMAINS ELIGIBLE TO BE CONTROLLED OF MAYA IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. How can anyone read this and claim that it impossible to fall from Vaikuntha? This is a rhetorical question…!”
Because of your limited understanding of this issue you make these kinds of erroneous statements. It is not a rhetorical question, the answers are there for those who take the time to actually study the sastra and the acaryas’ teachings. Krsna Himself says repeatedly throughout sastra that NO ONE FALLS FROM HIS ABODE. There is not one single direct statement in Jaiva-dharma which supports the fall from the lila. You are resorting to confused misinterpretations of what has been presented. Here are just a few statements from sastra that prove it is impossible to fall from Vaikuntha. I posted many more on the other thread:
One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna. BG, 4.9
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again. BG, 8.16
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world. BG, 15.6
A devotee who is in the spiritual abode of the Lord never falls from it. SB, 3.15.48
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. SB, 3.16.26