Sita Rama dasa: I posted an article last month, “Back to Godhead Means Back to Godhead”. After this, numerous comments and several articles on the topic have been posted. It may be difficult to sift through all this. So in this article I first list some of the principal arguments against the conclusion of my former article; then I explain why they fail. The conclusion can be named the, “fall position”, the contentions against it can be named the, “no-fall position”. Basically, the fall position is that we fell from our loving relationship with Krishna, in the spiritual world. The no- fall position is that no one can fall from Vaikuntha; our ultimate origin is the brahma-jyoti.
The, “no- fall” arguments include the following:
1. Although Srila Prabhupada said we can fall from Vaikuntha, he also said, “no one falls from Vaikuntha”. The, “no one falls”, statement negates the, fall position.
2. The statements that are presented to support the fall position can also be understood to support the no- fall position.
3. The citations supporting the fall position are from Srila Prabhupada’s letters and conversations. These are directed to individuals, not to the entire society. Srila Prabhupada told individual devotees that we fall only because they were too convinced of the fall position; in other words they could not accept the real understanding.
Rebuttal:
As for the statement, “no one ever falls from Vaikuntha”: Srila Prabhupada also wrote, “…the fall is superficial, just like the relation between a son and a father can never be broken” (letter to Jananivasa, 8/27/1967). And, “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself……… Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”, (Siksamrita Volume 2, Page 1171). So, “no one ever falls” does not necessarily mean we were never in Vaikuntha, it can mean, in one sense we don’t ever leave, we just forget as if we are sleeping. So this statement does not negate the fall position. If the no-fall proponents can cite a direct statement that our ultimate origin is the brahma jyoti then their position could be taken seriously. But their conclusion does not directly follow from the statement that no one falls.
In contrast there are direct statements by Srila Prabhupada that the brahma- jyoti is not our original position: “Existence within the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krishna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence are also in the fallen condition. WHEN THE FALL TAKES PLACE IT MEANS FALLING FROM THE NO-FALLEN POSITION (letter to Revatinandana, 7/ 13/1970, capitals added). Undeniably, Srila Prabhupada is saying we fell from a place other than the brahman effulgence.
As for the argument that statements used to support the fall position can also support the no-fall position; this proves not to be the case. Srila Prabhupada says, “Because he falls down from brahma-sayuja he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krishna( letter to Madhuvisa, Siksamrita Volume 2 page1172).
The no-fall proponents will argue that the statement, “… he was with Krishna” does not mean we were in Vaikuntha, because even in the material world we are in Krishna’s energy so we are always with Krishna even when we forget Him. But this argument requires chopping up Srila Prabhupada’s statement that before being in brahma-sayuja we were with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada is using the phrase, “with Krishna” as being distinct from forgetting Krishna in the fallen condition of the brahman effulgence. So in this context being, “with Krishna”, cannot be equated with being connected with Krishna’s energy in a state of forgetfulness. This is an example of a statement that cannot be construed as being compatible with the no- fall position.
As for the no- fall contention that the numerous letters and conversations confirming that we fall from Vaikuntha are all Srila Prabhupada placating those who have a preconceived notion of the fall; if someone can present evidence that several of these devotees had this mentality their contention may be taken seriously. Until then there is no basis for rejecting Srila Prabhupada’s numerous, direct, statements that we can, and do, fall from Vaikuntha. Beyond this, however, we again have documentation against the no-fall contention.
Room Conversation Feburary 19, 1976 Mayapur
Acyutananda: “…….. But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.””
Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.
Acyutananda: He can return.
Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that.… That misuse is the cause of our falldown.
Rather than placating the fall position, Srila Prabhupada refutes the no-fall position. We can fall even after returning back home, back to godhead.
Here is a small sample of more repudiations of the no-fall position: “The relationship with Krishna is eternal, as both Krishna and the living entity is eternal; THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.”( letter to Jagadisa, 2/27/1970 capitals added). And, “..but because the independence is always there, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISSUSE OF HIS INDEPENDENCE( letter to Jagadisa, 2/27/1970 capitals added).CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHALOKA HAS A CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN( Letter to Upendra 10/27/1969 capitals added). There are many more, but they have been cited repeatedly on this website so I will stop here.
For some unknown reason, Sita Rama Prabhu has launched a campaign to promote the thesis that the Spiritual World is not perfect and that its inhabitants are not pure devotees. He also believes Krishna is not the All-Attractive Madan-Mohan and that one may dump Him anytime to go to the material world…
Well, different strokes for different folks…!
This may be one of the reasons why Srila Prabhupada presented different thesis. Not to forget that Sri Guru may give either kripa or vancana, according to one’s own adhikara, i.e. one’s qualification which also includes one’s intentions and motivations.
Thus, as Srila Prabhupada puts it, we have to surrender with intelligence, but we do not have to surrender our intelligence…!
This is why, for the discerning devotees, Srila Prabhupada has also left so many statements, including his own conclusion (which Sita Rama das completely ignores or rejects), which are perfectly in line with the teachings of Krishna Himself, of Sastras and of our previous acaryas, who are and will remain eternally his spiritual authorities, as well as ours, according to the principle of Parampara.
The nitya-siddhas never fall in the realm of the material atmosphere.
(S.B. 3.3.26)
A devotee who is in the spiritual abode of the Lord never falls from it.
(S.B. 3.15.48)
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Lord, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (S.B. 3.25.29)
By the way, this proves that there is no no-fall philosophy as, emanating from Karanodakasayi Visnu, we as minute souls fell from the tatastha region where the choice was offered to us, when we became allured by Maya, being marginal, and chose to come down to this material world, rather than go straight away to the spiritual world…
The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world. (S.B. 5.11.12)
The eternally liberated souls never come in touch with material energy.
(CC Madhya 22.14, 15 and CC Madhya 20.269, 270)
‘The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.’ (SB 4.30.5 purport)
THE CONCLUSION IS THAT NO ONE FALLS FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD.
(S.B. 3.16.26)
In the conclusion the author quotes a letter to Jagadisha Das. Why not continue the conversation and see Prabhupada’s subsequent reply. It suggests we did not have an active relationship with Krishna before we came here.
letter to Jagadish dasa, Los Angeles, April 25, 1970
“Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.
Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.”
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
In this letter, Srila Prabhupada explains the meanîng of “we were with Krishna” in relation to the verse where Krishna says “Aham bija prada pita”, I am the seed-giving father of all living entities. (B.g. 14.4)
sarva-yoniṣu kaunteya
mūrtayaḥ sambhavanti yāḥ
tāsāṁ brahma mahad yonir
ahaṁ bīja-pradaḥ pitā
SYNONYMS
sarva-yoniṣu—in all species of life; kaunteya—O son of Kuntī; mūrtayaḥ—forms; sambhavanti—as they appear; yāḥ—which; tāsām—all of them; brahma—supreme; mahat yoniḥ—the source of birth in the material substance; aham—Myself; bīja-pradaḥ—seed-giving; pitā—father.
TRANSLATION
It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kuntī, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.
Puskaraska Prabhu, You cite Srila Prabhupada, “The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” (SB 4.30.5 purport)
Of course! But remember, this is not a temporal origin, Krisna is the casual origin, we are not created by Krishna we are eternal.
Krishna Book Chapter 87
“It is not stated that the living entities themselves were ever created. Just as the shining particles of the sun’s rays always exist with the sun, the living entities exist eternally as parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead”.
Srila Prabhupada writes, “Within the sun itself resides the sun-god, and similarly within the supreme spiritual planet, Goloka Våndävana, from which the brahmajyoti effulgence is emanating, the Lord enjoys His eternal pastimes, as verified in the Brahma-saàhitä (5.29)”( Isopanisad Mantra 16)
We generally say, “in the Brahman effulgence” to indicate those with impersonal realization but the effulgence of Krishna lights up the spiritual world, thus the pastimes of Krishna are taking place in the light of the brahma-jyoti. Those with impersonal realization only, are simply not conscious of Krishna’s Paramatma or Bhagavan aspects. Those with who are Bhagavan realized also realize the other aspects.
The statement from SB 4/30/5 does not say our original consciousness is Brahman consciousness; Srila Prabhupada write hundreds of times that our original position is Krishna Consciousness.
We can debate about this forever. But Srila Prabhupada has been asked this precise question by leading disciples( temple President and GBC) and gave the clear answer to resolve the seeming contradictions .
Jagadisa asked if one has a relationship, IN KRISHNA LOKA does he ever fall down? Answer: “THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE”.
Another Letter to Jagadisa Prabhu, “THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But HIS REALTIONSHIP WITH KRISHNA IS NEVER LOST, SIMPLY FORGOTTEN BY THE INFLUENCE OF MAYA SO IT MAY BE REGAINED OR REVIVED…..THE PROCESS IS ONE OF REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
Another letter to Jagadisa:” THESE SPIRIT SOULS AND ALL SPIRIT SOULS ARE COMING FROM VAIKUNTHA”.
Vaikuntha means Vaikuntha consciousness, this is not about a location. We can be in Vaikuntha while inhabiting an earthly body,or in a lesser level( brahman realization) and have no material body.
Amalaguru,
I ncomment 2, regarding Jagadisa Prabhu’s, letter, you say the second part of the letter, “suggests” that we did not have an active relationship with Krishna. Material examples are meant to help us envision what is being precisely explained. The beginning of the letter is comprised of a precise question and an equally precise answer.
Jagadisa Prabhu had asked, “…if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down?”
Srila Prabhupada replied, “The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one’s independence”.
Our independence can be rightly or wrongly utilized, AT ANYTIME, there is ALWAYS a chance of FALLING FROM KRISHNALOKA !
We cannot interpret an analogy as, “suggesting” something opposite to what is being explicitly stated a few sentences before.
Sita Rama: In all of the quotes in your last two posts, Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the theoretical possibility but he never says that it actually happens to the extent that unlimited jivas have thus fallen into the material worlds. Srila Prabhupada would never contradict Krsna’s infallible statements. You fail to address this simple fact and continue to speculate.
One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna. BG, 4.9
From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again. BG, 8.16
That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world. BG, 15.6
From Srila Prabhupada’s purport:
As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here.
The nitya-siddhas never fall in the realm of the material atmosphere. SB, 3.3.26
A devotee who is in the spiritual abode of the Lord never falls from it. SB, 3.15.48
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. SB, 3.16.26
Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Lord, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. SB, 3.25.29
The eternally liberated living entities are in the spiritual world, vaikuntha jagat, and they never fall into the material world. SB, 5.11.12
The eternally liberated souls never come in touch with material energy. CC Madhya 22.14, 15 and CC Madhya 20.269, 270
from Srila Prabhupada’s purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. SB, 7.1.35
There are more, but that’s a good start.
“We should be Always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone. Because every living entity is originally a devotee of Krsna. But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of maya, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of Krsna. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa (Cc. Madhya 20.108-109). Everyone is eternally servant of Krsna.”
The Nectar of Devotion — Vrndavana, October 23, 1972
“This falldown is due to false ego. From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3.26.23-24, Purport
“In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna.”
Srimad-Bhagavatam, 3.26.23-24, Purport
Uttamasloka You say, ”
Sita Rama: In all of the quotes in your last two posts, Srila Prabhupada is speaking of the theoretical possibility but he never says that it actually happens to the extent that unlimited jivas have thus fallen into the material worlds.”
Please read the citation carefully and then comment. Jagadisa does not ask if the jiva CAN fall; he asks if the soul DOES fall from Krishna Loka.
Contrary to your claim, Srila Prabhupada’s response is not that it can happen but it never does. The answer is- yes he does fall from Krishna Loka- this is implicit when Srila Prabhupada explains why it happens- namely by misuse of independence which the soul ALWAYS has. Combined with the answer that the goal(Krishna Loka) is REVIVAL ONLY, NOTHING NEW.
I accept the answer Srila Prabhupada gives to the specific question, not one from a different context that you claim is the real answer. The answer Srila Prabhupada gives is Srila Prabhupadas answer.
Uttamasloka,
You say Srila Prabhupada, ” never says that it actually happens to the extent that unlimited jivas have thus fallen into the material worlds”
When Srila Prabhupada speaks of the process; it is the process given for all conditioned souls. Srila Prabhupada says the process is one of REVIVAL ONLY. It follows that all the unlimited conditioned souls have been given a process for reviving their previous state in Krishna Loka which they have forgotten due to misuse of the their independence.
Hearing and Chanting about Krishna will makes us realize we have an eternal loving relationship with Krishna. Eternal means there is no circumstance in which does not exist. When we equate a material element- namely time- with our eternal soul we cannot realize that the forgotten relationship is in the realm of the eternal present.
““Innumerable jivas appear from Sri Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vrndavana-vihari Sri Krsna as His eternal associates in Goloka Vrndavana, and others appear from Sri Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuntha, Sri Narayana, in the spiritual sky. Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavan, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-sakti, they are always strong. They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called maya or not. Since they reside in the spiritual world, maya is very far away from them and does not affect them at all. Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.
“There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jivas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Maha-Visnu’s glance upon His mayasakti. Since these jivas are situated next to maya, they perceive her wonderful workings. Although they have all the qualities of the jivas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jiva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (seva-vastu). Among these unlimited jivas, those who want to enjoy maya become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha.
On the other hand, the jivas who perform cidanusilanam of Bhagavan receive spiritual sakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. Baba! It is our great misfortune that we have forgotten our service to Sri Krsna, and have become bound in the shackles of maya. Only because we have forgotten our constitutional position, are we in this deplorable condition.” Jaiva Dharma Chapter 16
So, we do not originate from the tatastha region. We originate from Krishna – “Aham bija prada pita – I am the seed giving Father of all living entities” and came to the tatastha region through the glance of Maha-Vishnu. So, as Srila Prabhupada puts it in the above quoted letter, we were with our Father and know Him.
This is the source of multiple interpretations!