By Kesava Krsna dasa – GRS
If a spiritual master requests a glass of water and the disciple brings some milk instead, thinking it to be a more valuable type of service, it would be considered a classic example of being over-intelligent. Does overuse of our intelligence only refer to practical things like this? If doubt is a symptom of intelligence, what if we become over-intelligent and begin to over-doubt? If we broaden the possibilities further, can one over-estimate, over-discriminate and generally over-react to challenges we face in our devotional lives?
Many of us are accustomed to the intellectual cynicism afforded by ‘free’ democratic societies. The news we read or hear, and judicious endings to court cases are often the work of investigative journalists or police work, who often test the limits of constitutional liberties such as the freedom of speech, expression, the rights to life, to privacy and so on, which favor a decent and dignified existence. When we come to Krsna consciousness, a cultural shock awaits us as we become exposed to the ancient way of obedience to authority, to guru, sadhu and Sastra.
Sometimes Srila Prabhupada discovered that certain traits of western liberty would infiltrate the service attitude, even with good intentions, but would lead him to say ‘over-intelligent,’ with a potential to ‘change’ or ‘spoil’ what he had established. The desire to change something consecrated by the previous acaryas has to be a work of doubt. When an over-doubter sets up a proxy masquerading as the real thing, and in Srila Prabhupada’s name, it is certainly a product of over-intelligence. The reason for these changes are mired in what Srila Prabhupada says is ‘foolishness.’ For instance, Srila Prabhupada gave the example of counterfeit coins. We may handle some counterfeit coins one time or another, but know that not all coins are crooked, whereas a foolish person will conclude that all coins must be counterfeit. In the same way, we may all experience seeing a devotee leave, or have personal difficulties, but we also know not all devotees are suspect. Whereas the doubter will conclude that everyone is fallen except Srila Prabhupada or the acaryas.
Interestingly, Srila Prabhupada also used the term over-intelligent to refer to the modern-day Christians who do not follow the teachings of Jesus. Even more interesting is the fact that the Christians say that all, each and every one of us are fallen sinners except for Jesus himself, thanks to a dubious original sin of biting some fruit by Adam. If we compare this with the idea of all devotees being fallen, whose integrity are open to over-intelligent over-doubting scrutiny, we find a parallel pursued in the guise of over-discrimination. The ramifications of this are quite serious. By doubting the devotees we also doubt the power of Bhakti to uplift them, then we are guilty of the converse – underestimation. If we underestimate the devotees, chances are high we will lessen our respect for the spiritual master too, by underestimating his words which reflect Srila Prabhupada’s teachings on the matter. Predictably, Lord Krsna says in BG.15.19 “Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata.” If someone thinks he can render devotional service without the need for a spiritual master by the process of diksha, his service can never be ‘full.’ It can either be partial or zero depending on the severity of deviation.
Srila Prabhupada never doubted the status of any devotee no matter how fallen. He says in BG.9.34 purport: “The devotee, in the beginning, may sometimes fall from the standard, but still he should be considered superior to all other philosophers and yogis.” Even a beginner is a devotee. Elsewhere he writes: “….such an occasional fall down will be stopped in due course, as soon as a devotee is situated in Krsna consciousness.” – BG.9.30 purport. Sometimes a doubter will feel great vindication based on discrimination when, if a devotee falls and may never return even in this lifetime, proves his all-fallen assertions. But the few years we experience here on earth, which seem a long duration of time, has no bearing whatsoever on Krsna’s sense of timing. For the Lord, if a devotee leaves His service for several lifetimes, it is still a temporary fall down. Does Krsna not say – na me bhaktah pranasyati?
‘Once bitten twice shy’ may be the general maxim. Does it mean we should suspect every devotee around us? Some discriminators say we are being naïve if we see only the good in devotees. Are we being naïve if we see only the good in others? Or is this tempered with suspicion we choose to ignore, as a type of selective amnesia, simply for the sake of good relationships? But if we do this, are we not letting our natural feelings come to the fore? A devotee naturally sees the good just as the bumble bee searches for nectar. An intelligent devotee sees but does not see! How so? When he sees the beauty of the moon, he cares not for the pock marks of the craters. When he sees a fire, he sees through the smoke as simply a natural occurrence.
The far-sighted wisdom of Yudhisthira Maharaja made him behave in ways sometimes exasperating and downright out of touch for his brothers. When Bhima and Arjuna urged for swift action, Yudhisthira chose not to make two wrongs into a right. He still respected, nay even loved those of his relatives bent on oppressing him. By kali-yuga calculations he seemed to be over-humble and therefore a coward. Was he? After the big war, King Yudhisthira even maintained the one who faked false homily and affection, disguising his intention to kill by intrigue and sabotage as prodded by his son Duryodhana – Dhrtarastra. A normal person would be glad to see the back of Dhrtarastra. The fact is, Maharaja Yudhisthira intelligently appraised all the wrong doings, but lived his life in an exemplary way. He saw, but did not see the bad. He was a real discriminator.
We have our God-given intelligence created by Krsna, awarded to us so to pave our way home back to Godhead. If we remain simple, and perform our duties without adding or subtracting, changing or spoiling, our service will become an attractive offering. Next time we bring a glass of water according to the specifications of the guru, even an excess quantity will not be too problematic, because the potent remnants will help keep us advancing in such a way as to fulfill the mandate of the Bhagavad Gita, and thus worship Krsna by our intelligence – BG.18.70.
Kesava Krsna dasa – GRS.
Please exscuse this naive person,
So ,what are you saying prabhu?
that one shoudn’t discriminate ?
If that is the case ,
how do you know you are not being cheated ?
but that of course is your choice.
It could be argued that one possesed of such a mentality is simply asking to be exploited.
ys mvdas ACBSP
Mahavidya prabhu,
Did I say anywhere in my article that we should not discriminate? I think not.
We can certainly do so within the confines of Sri Narada’s teachings to Dhruva Maharaja, concerning our relationships as far as junior, equals and seniors go, and in accord with the guidelines given in the Nectar of Instruction, Nectar of Devotion and the rest. Any excess or lack of it is likely to be a disturbance.
Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.
Dear Keshava Krsna prabhu.
so we are agreed that discrimination has to be there .
How or who will decide when there is an excess or lack of it ?
What constitutes a disturbance ?
ys mvdas
Dear Mahavidya prabhu,
I am sure you know the answers to the questions you posed, but I take it you want an answer given from a grievance or complainant point of view. If the general guidelines pertaining to decent vaisava behaviour are followed, peace should reign. However, we have a phenomenom which is Iskcon, and is, by Srila Prabhupada’s and Krsna ‘s mercy, still going strong. Within Iskcon, many of us have faced challenges befitting a worldwide organization, and when things are managed by a volunteer devotee force, problems will arise which are different from those experienced by material corporates.
The hire and fire policy adopted by employers is a more sensitive one to police in a spiritual institution. You yourself often raise concerns about managerial flaws and perceived deviations, which I gather, may border on the excessive, or may test the tolerance level of those around you. What you may see as a diversion and how you wish to publicise them, may differ from anothers’ way of seeing the same. But worldwide institution or not, from GBC down to the one day old bhakta, all will be expected to live a life dictated by Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.
In your first comment you raised the issue of being exploited. In your second comment you wanted to see how far reaching our complaints, greivances, be it in the guise of discrimination, can be, at least as far as those in a position to solve them are concerned. As it often happens in human nature, the more aggresive a request to obtain answers to problems, the more likely they be met with little response or grudging replies. A more humble approach usually has the effect of encouraging more willingness. If the humble attempt is couched with a motive then the whole enterprise lacks sincerity. The truth is, whoever is placed in a position of authority is sanctioned for reasons known to Krsna, whether we like it or not. There is always protocol to observe. In general, the many managerial decisions made by the GBC are the result of trial and error, as per the guidelines of Srila Prabhupada. If we wish for a successful future for Iskcon, the humble approach, however difficult, is the recommended remedy. An intelligent analysis of any given situation should be presented to the relevant authorities. Failing that, an appeal to wise counsel should get attention. While these are age-old procedures, all the while you may suspect behavioural discrepencies over and above the norm. Still, however incredulous this may sound, everything is happening with the Lord’s consent, and occur to test our own dedication, our own resolve, even through others’ actions may seem contrary. We cannot see it any other way.
If we are unable to confront this reality that all internal problems arise to help us rather than hinder us, then we will have difficulty discerning what is Krsna’s mercy and what is not. Our power of discrimination will be dictated by our own means, and share with likeminded mentalities our grievances. If we depend on the institution to be healthy before we ourselves think about becoming Krsna concsious, we defer the power of devotion [Bhakti] to this, which is a mistake. Problems or no problems, our first priority should be to become Krsna conscious. A happy devotee hardly complains about external happenings. Such happiness can be infectious in a pleasing way. The converse is equally contagious. Yes, we had the zonal acarya system, and allied incidents, and for Srila Prabhupada’s sake, all attempts should be made to uphold what he gave us. Any excess, or over-discrimination then, is that which seeks to widen or publicise our greivances beyond the accepted protocols. Such excesses as a natural consequence causes a disturbance, either to the perceived guilty party, or to those who are averse to agitations of this kind. A disturbance is not neccessarily a product of a decision made by someone or other, but how we meet it with preconceived ideas and notions.
‘So who decides when there is excess or lack of it’ as you queried? Only we ourselves can exceed that which is taught to us by the previous acaryas. If we fail to notice our contravention but persist, thinking the objective to be divinely inspired, but is causing a disturbance to the aggregate of the assembled devotees, we need the counsel of sadhu, who can verify the standard of guru, in accord with sastra. Even if devotee standards appear to change in the managerial sphere, where exhibitions of ksatriya or passionate dealings seem prominent, or perhaps even vaisya tendencies, we ourselves can help in the humble spirit. Humble words and actions can achieve much more than a torrent of fire and brimstone barrage of scathing language.
Are you incredulous?
YS Kesava Krsna dasa.
Dear Keshava Krsna das,
thank you for your reply,
Yes ,Iskcon is going on ,but harsh experience has taught that in various times and places it did go off the track ,we are still experiencing the repercussions.
In fact in can go off track anywhere at any time again and again.
The nature of the material world sees to that.
So what keeps it on track?
Does not Krsna give us the power of discrimination ,with proper reference ?
That when we see danger ahead ,the alarm gets raised,
That we redirect ,
unfortunatly ,the problem in Iskcon is that when devotees with experience raise an alarm ,or a challenge,they are percieved as a threat to our comfort zone.
But if one is trained only to see the good ,rather than reality,
or should i say ,the good ,the bad ,and all the shades in between,
then does that not amount to simply sentimentalism or fanaticism ?
Yes ,ultimately every thing is sanctioned by the Lord ,but are we not supposed to be part of His plan?
For ref ,try CC Mahdya lila ch 19 verses 159 ,160,
Are we not supposed to uproot unwanted creepers ,
or do we ignore them and choke to death.
but of course that is our choice.
ys mvdas
Mahavidya prabhu,
As I mentioned before, if, as you say, ‘you raise an alarm, or a challenge’ there is a way of bringing to attention such matters in a humble but intelligent manner. Rather than be grumpy about certain issues, hoping this will attract attention, an intelligible presentation of the facts should be shown. Intelligent discrimination also means to adjust to a situation, the type of personality you are to deal with, the time, place and circumstance and so on, all in an effort do the neccessary. I’ll say it again, that the humble endeavour will achieve much more than with a challenge, or some action which can provoke undesirable results.
If it is natural for a vaisnava to see the good in others, how can it be sentimental behaviour? Of course, if one imitates certain attributes of devotees, or behaves without proper discrimination, failing to relate properly to either the kanistha, madhyama or uttama vaisnavas and so on, then ignorance or sentimentality will prevail. Seeing the good does not discount the potential bad, but is a safety mechanism employed to maintain cordiality in relationships. It is not blind to discrimination either. However, a genuine outlook filled with love and compassion, as developed through purification of the self, should not be construed as sentimentality or fanaticism.
If one were to go around among the devotees with an ever suspecting mood, thinking natural behaviour to be sentimental or fanaticism, would mean one is walking on thin ice. Only someone who has some hard axe to grind can feel this way towards those who genuinely see the good. The axe will eventually crack the ice causing a cold demise. If one says discrimination means one has to be somewhat hard-hearted to shield him from the past mistakes made within Iskcon, it must be a miserable existence. Indeed, it is known that how one percieves others is usually a reflection of their own behaviour. One may conitnue to chant Hare Krsna and follow the principles while living like this, but his will be an unhappy state of affairs, because the Holy Name will not allow any further entrance along the path of Bhakti. These are the weeds to which you refer. These are the chokers to our creeper – not seeing the good, as you say.
If, as Prahlada Maharaja says, that a devotee can be happy in hell, then surely a humble, happy attitude can withstand the problems you speak of. It is not really true to say we are trained to see the good. This is a natural consequence of performing devotional service nicely.Yes, vaidhi training is there. But – ye yatha mam prapadyante – the more sincere a devotee is, the more sincerely Krsna reciprocates, and wherever there is a sense of Krsna’s response, can only fill a devotee with joy. And for an advanced devotee who sees everyone equally cannot come under any of our miserly scrutiny or judgement. A naturally happy attitude will more see a mole hill instead of a mountain, or, to be appropriate, see the good and not the bad, with trained discrimination of course.
YS, Kesava Krsna dasa.
Thank you for your reply Keshava Krsna prabhu,
And when the alarm is raised in a humble and intelligent way,and then ignored ,
what then?
we have many collective historical experiences of instances when many senior members of our Iskcon leadership have had to be presented with a very severe ultimatum ,in order to rectify very serious situations.
Of course we could have gone our own happy way and let them go theirs, simply seeing the goodness in them.
My question to you is ,would you be prepared to venture outside of your happy zone to do the sometimes unpleasent neccesary action to keep Iskcon on track…?
Mahavidya prabhu,
Needless to say, this is not entirely a black and white issue. You are raising questions about managerial cocerns which differ from case to case. Although I have spoken about general behaviour in response to the points you raised, there are still specific duties to fulfill in the unpleasant zone. BG.18th chapter lists activities performed in the mode of goodness. BG.18.6 says that activities should ‘be performed as a matter of duty.’ BG.18.26 says that by doing the neccessary ‘with great determination’ and ‘without wavering in success or failure’ is work in the mode of goodness. Essentially the happy zone is the mode of goodness, what to speak of transcendental happiness, but as we can see, certain duties, particularly regarding your query can still be done. It is not that one loses happiness if he has to sometimes do unpleasant things.
You asked what to do if the alarm gets ignored. If there is wilful neglect, then in spite of honest endeavours to rectify a certain situation, time will eventually reveal the truth of the matter and expose it for all to see. But we cannot let such affairs dictate to us how we perform our own Krsna conscious activities. We must soldier on, come what may.
So being happy and seeing the good in others is informed by experience and sastra, but developes naturally when one pleases the spiritual master. Experience tells if someone is faking happiness just as much as one is genuinely happy. Experience reveals who is motivated, proud, advanced, not so advanced and so on. One way or another, Krsna always rights the wrongs, however long it may take.
Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.
Kesava Krsna prabhu wrote:
“One way or another, Krsna always rights the wrongs, however long it may take.”
In Bhagavad-gita, Lord Krsna instructs Arjuna to “right the wrongs” when dharma was under attack. He rejected Arjuna’s initial desire to retire to the forest, avoid the problems, and hope that Krsna would “right the wrongs”. Of course, Krsna DOES right the wrongs, but He does it through the instrument of His devotee.
There is a saying that when there is corruption, “one who has the ability to act has the RESPONSIBILTY to act”. Just like Arjuna’s responsibility was to uphold dharma through fighting against his relatives – as ordered by the Lord Himself.
Dear Keshava Krsna prabhu,
So how do you recognise who is “proud,not so advanced etc”
After all i am trained to” simply see the good in people”
Another point that comes to mind is that, we all depend on Krsna for our daily maintainance,do we not?
but does that mean i have Him cooking and feeding me ?
Mahavidya prabhu.
Your questions seem to be reactive to the replies I make. In response to your last couple of questions, we have to overlook such things as pride, motivation and so on, unless one is peturbed enough to report such behaviour to relevant authorities or the guru. There is always a way to communicate our feelings within the confines of decent vaisnava behaviour. As for observing such things, it comes along with experience.
Just because a devotee is inclined to see the good in others, does not mean he is blind to the negatives, but prefers to see how such a rare soul is trying to engage in Krsna’s service., and given time and mercy, such a devotee will advance nicely. In the beginning, and sometimes even after a long time, one may still be infested with some quality belonging to the lower modes. The question should be raised – why dwell on them? Is it going to heighten our own devotional advancement by publicising anothers’ anarthas? Your bone of contention is, what if an anartha ridden person misuses the facilities given to him, such as a position of influence within Iskcon. Still, the procedures have to be followed.
At least we can strive to come to the madhyama level, where natural discrimination is applied. On this level, the devotees love is extended in friendship to other fellow devotees, but he avoids the envious. This is not a fault, but a mechanism to to prevent the commiting of aparadha. Is such a devotee at fault for doing this? He sees and avoids. He sees the good in the devotees and he associates with them. He may see neophyte or bad behaviour in another devotee, but he will also avoid close relations, but still give respect, at least mentally. As you know, I am merely repeating what is said in the Necter of Instruction. But having chosen not to be in close proximity to such devotees, he will still think how wonderful it is he is somehow engaged in Krsna’s service. That is seeing the good. That is compassionate vision.To put a positive spin [genuine] on it. He prays that the Lord may help him, because the well wishes of a devotee are powerful.
With your pursuance in the line of questioning I sometimes wonder if you are playing ‘devils advocate.’ I have to admit being incedulous myself.
Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.
Dear Keshava Krsna dasa,
While i appreciate your stress on Vaisnava etiquette,
my point is ,
do you as an individual , or do we as a society,sufficiently teach the process of discrimination?
to say,one simply has to see the good in others,is not the same as prefering to see the good in others,
Also time does tell,if left to its own devices,it usually degrades to a mode of ignorence situation,
so my point is ,does not Krsna give us the intelligence to recognise the symptoms of the mode of ignorence and redirect.
If we are not trained to recognise symptoms other than the mode of goodness one is simply heading for disaster.
I have read in Srila Prabhupada’s books (Forgive me ,i cannot remember exactly where),that one has to also understand nescience so we do not fall prey to it.
ys mvdas
Mahavidya prabhu,
Alright. You want a forthright answer. In the early eighties, it was of such epic proportions to see afalldown of a guru, who, under the zonal acarya system could never, even in theory, bite the dust. Such was the magnitude of it all, it had to be hushed up. Then another one fell, then another. We slowly bacame desentisized. Our lessons in discrimination came brutally hard, especially for the disciples left reeling. I speak from experience. After my second guru left in 1985, I did not just rush headlong straight into the arms of another one. I waited. I tested. I discriminated. Only last year, after 20 years of patience, and I must say, sometimes reluctant pursuit, did I get re-initiated by HH Giriraja Maharaja.
I could have over-reacted or over-discriminated, and gone the way many of my God-brothers and sisters went, either to other mathas, or to simply give up. I have seen the worst and gone through it. I could even remain embittered and doubt everyone around me. But this process of Srila Prabhupada is so sublime and workable, that my allegience and indebtedness can only be given to him. I know this path of Krsna consciousness truly works. And to make it work, I cannot dwell on the past as a lame excuse to blame any present difficulty. I saw and I learnt. In fact, those who came and contributed greatly to Srila Prabhupada’smission should still be respected. Krsna sent them here for some purpose.
To answer your questions about discriminating the good, bad and ugly, well, experience tells me to deal with them. Try and help if neccessary. As for whether we as a society are able to cope, we have contigency plans in place, should any unpleasant eventuality occur. This came about due to learning from the past.
But whichever way things turn out for us, even if we alone remain, and the whole world leaves Krsna consciousness, still we should persist. What good will our evaluations of good or bad discrimination do for us? We have managerial personnel who will deal with such matters. If one has gotten the mercy of Sri Sri guru and Gauranga, everything will fall into place in terms of vision, application of the philosophy and general contentment. If we see the bad, then deal with it. But discretion teaches that all these so called good and bad surface for our purification. If we acknowledge everything in this way to be Krsna’s mercy, why fight or complain? There will always be personalities who have leadership credentials. If they wish to assume resposibility for Iskcon’s affairs, why begrudge them? If some problem arises, which is of concern to all of us, then we can humbly contribute with sound suggestions in a co-operative spirit.
Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.
Very interesting. Keshava Krishna das, whose writings on Dandavats.com usually promote “healthy” discussion, had an ongoing dialogue that took place in “2006”, nine years ago. Let us, at least from the perspective of Srila Prabhupada’s will, understand that the “baby must not be thrown out with the bathwater”. That is to say, Srila Prabhupad did not have confidence in any one individual to follow him as the sole acharya for ISKCON. He did this based on the example left behind by his own beloved Sri Gurudeva who also recommended that a GBC govern the Gaudiya Math following his passing. The Gaudiya Math did not adopt his recommendation, and an unnecessary battle followed with divisive consequences to the Gaudiya Math. They really never fully recovered from that. Srila Sridhara Maharaj left and subsequently founded the Sri Chaitanya Sarawat Math. Srila Keshava Maharaj also founded his own mission. Others also did so, and this division weakened the Gaudiya Math. None of them were demons! They were all time tested beautiful bhaktas, but the defect was that they did not follow the recommendation of their Gurudeva, His Divine Grace Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. Furthermore, even our own Srila Prabhupad, was unable to preach within the confines of the Gaudiya Math and started first a League of Devotees, and later ISKCON. Srila Prabhupad often lamented about the fact that the godbrothers of the Gaudiya Math were not obedient to the will of their founder-acharya, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur.
Now, ISKCON, by Srila Prabhupada’s desire, developed a GBC from very early on in the ISKCON society. I also once served at Srila Prabhupada’s desire as one of about 20 GBC in the mid-seventies. The fact that I did not remain a strong and active member in ISKCON and thus the GBC, does not diminish the order of our Acharya, His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
So, the danger of being “over-intelligent” is the defect of trying to leap over the Acharya, or worse. These are practical foundational issues. Srila Prabhupad, further, when he was ill in the last days, wanted many main temples and zones to be covered by more than one GBC member. It was not an issue of distrust, but a practical issue. Maya can deceive any willing soul, and it may be more difficult to effect harm to his mission if there is more than one and in some cases a number of other bhaktas to help check and balance the potentially flawed decisions of an individual. BUT, the goal is never to cut another devotee off at the knees. If a perceived deviation occurs, then other godbrothers should help that “family member” in ISKCON to keep the individual spiritually safe, even more than merely protect the society…and I have personally, without going into detail, seen Srila Prabhupad act in this manner. While it may have taken me 10 years to finally see this, by Krishna’s grace, we can learn from Srila Prabhupada’s personal example as a great Acharya, one who teaches by example.
Submitted for your consideration, Pusta Krishna das in 2015