By Antaryami Dasa
The following is a cross-section from books mentioned read in article titled: importance of reading submitted 9/12/06. Purpose of this article: To show jiva’s desending to earthly sphere.
The spirit soul or jiva as referred to by the vedas is in itself pure and transcendental, eternal full of knowledge and bliss in transcendental form. The jiva cannot be burned, dried, cut or killed, no time affects the jiva. The jiva is eternal a part and partial of the supreme jiva sri krsna. The eternal occupation of the jiva is to hear, chant, remember, serve and worship krsna always. There are nine types of service the jiva renders to lord krsna and four types of relationships may be held.
Krsna created the jiva as himself, transcendentally pure, granting the jiva an almost equal footing of enjoyment while serving krsna in the transcendental goloka/vikunta sphere where there is unlimited variaty. Krsna endowed the jiva with a minute particle of Independence, without this Independence loving service towards krsna would be a kind of slavery/robotic. The only real occupation of the jiva is to be krsna consciously serving krsna nothing else.
At some point the jiva somehow desired to enjoy separate of krsna, this was detected by krsna and krsna’s internal energy yoga maya. Yoga maya removed the jiva from krsna’s association and placed the jiva into the Brahma-Jyoti braman. The brahma-Jyoti is the effulgence emitting from krsna’s body. The jiva remains in a causal state there, conscious, desiring, but not able to act physically.
The jiva is now under the care of krsna’s external energy maha maya durga devi. Durga devi is known as krsna’s shadow. Durga acts as krsna’s mind, eye’s, hands, legs, and ears for monitoring and doing the needful with the jiva’s placed within this sphere correctional facility. Another meaning of durga is fortress or prison keeper. Empowered by krsna, durga is on a par with the supersoul antaryami who stays with the jiva always.
After sometime in the brahma-jyoti the jiva is taken and granted a material body to act within one of the many material universes that are clustered together like a small dark cloud amidst the brama-jyoti. This cloud is called mahat-tatva. To begin the jiva is first granted a bodily life as a brahma universal engineer in one universe. If the jiva does not awaken the dormant loving relationship for krsna as a brahma the jiva then falls to the level of an administrative demigod, in charge of one of natures forces even a planet.
Time place and circumstances are taken seriously, no accidents or mistakes made regarding universe, planet and body the jiva will be placed into.
If yet the jiva does not awaken the loving relationship for krsna on this level the jiva then accepts birth as a human being on an earthly planet. Previous to taking birth as a human being there was no karma on the jiva, the jiva was enjoying coming down, a concessions reward from krsna on his devotee who desired to leave his association. Durga and her aid’s-de-camp the modes of material nature: goodness, passion, ignorance have taken complete control of the jiva’s material body, mind, intellect, senses, bodily actions, inside and out. Always the jiva’s desires and actions being monitored.
Within mahat-tatva there are unlimited universes large and small. Each universe is covered by seven different layers, each layer very vast in thickness, no chance of the jiva escaping this correctional facility.
The jiva is not actually the owner/controller of the granted material body, the jiva is only a passenger of the body. Encaged in the body floating in five types of air in the heart region. The jiva never comes into contact with any material bodily parts or minds etc. The jiva merely witnesses and views the bodies thoughts, functions, actions, food/beverage intake from the encaged position all based on a desire to enjoy separate of krsna.
Desire only carry the jiva from body to body, desires are monitored by krsna and his assistants from within and from outside the body. The vedas state that only after the jiva enters a human form does the karma begin, the karma factor begins here. agtsp
Dear Prabhu,
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. Thank you very much for this look into the “timeline” of the jiva’s descent into the material world. I was hoping, however, that you could provide some scriptural back-ups for what you have said, that or quotes from Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. I have never heard, for instance, that before coming under the influence of the mahat tattva that the jiva goes into the brahma-jyoti. Also, as an slight editorial note, there are actually twelve relationships that the jiva can have with the Supreme Person: five direct, and seven indirect.
“Invoking auspiciousness: Lord Sri Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the cause of all causes, the reservoir of all rasas, or relationships, which are called neutrality (passive adoration), servitorship, friendship, parenthood, conjugal love, comedy, compassion, fear, chivalry, ghastliness, wonder and devastation.” NoD Introduction
“Another message was once sent to Krishna informing Him that after He had killed Kamsa, one of Kamsa’s demon friends had gone insane. This demon was foaming at the mouth, waving his arms and rolling on the ground. This demoniac demonstration is in relationship with Krishna in a ghastly humor. This mellow or flavor is one of the indirect relationships with Krishna. The first five kinds of relationships are called direct, and the other seven are called indirect. Some way or other, the demon must have had some relationship with Krishna, because these symptoms developed when he heard that Krishna had already killed Kamsa. Srila Rupa Gosvami remarks that there is also transcendental excellence in this kind of symptom.” NoD Ch.29
“At some point the jiva somehow desired to enjoy separate of krsna, this was detected by krsna and krsna’s internal energy yoga maya. Yoga maya removed the jiva from krsna’s association and placed the jiva into the Brahma-Jyoti braman.”
It seems like a rather severe reaction, that we should be eternally conditioned, immersed in misery for countless lifetimes (bg 8.16) because we supposedly tinged our eternal loving service with a moment of envy, when we cannot even fathom how such envy could have existed. It’s hard to believe that Krishna was unable to think of a more gentle way of addressing this problem, but here we are.
I can’t even understand what “at some point” means in the context of eternity in the spiritual world. Given that time does not pass away in Vaikuntha (Brahma Samhita 5.56) I can’t imagine how such a incompatible mood could arise there or how the jivas being expelled to wander in eternal misery could cause that desire there to perish.
Also, in one sense it is alright to say that we “somehow” desired to enjoy separately from Krishna because among the myriad jivas there may be many individual reasons. However I have never heard a single plausible reason, nor can I imagine one. This is especially troublesome because it seems to contradict the jiva’s purity, Krishna’s attractiveness, and the nature of bhakti in the spiritual world.
I have heard others say that the activities in the material world are the finite manifestation of Krishna’s activities, which would not be complete without them. However, that suggests Krishna needs us to suffer for Him to be truly great, which does not make sense to me. I was taught that Krishna’s lila is superior to His tattva, and that does make sense to me. If logic requires that jivas have to suffer for Krishna to be complete, then I would expect Him to overrule such a tyrannical situation by His desire. Isn’t mercy (power plus compassion) greater than power? If so, then I still don’t know why we’re here.
Your article is pure speculation. Where is your scriptural authority. You should only speak with sastric authority. Where did you heard that a jiva was first with Krsna in Goloka, then became envious to enjoy like Krishna, and then dejected from Goloka into Brajyoti.
Please before making such statements, quote sastric authority. Hare Krishna.
quote:
At some point the jiva somehow desired to enjoy separate of krsna, this was detected by krsna and krsna’s internal energy yoga maya. Yoga maya removed the jiva from krsna’s association and placed the jiva into the Brahma-Jyoti braman.
Antaryami Dasa Prabhu, if Krishna allows his eternal associate in the spiritual world to get into Maya and find themselves in a situation where they are suffering mental anguish for millions of illusory lifetimes, then this would mean that Krishna’s statement in the Gita “My devotee will never perish” is untrue.
Think about that.
In response to comment 2:
Dear Prabhu,
Hare Krishna! Please accept my humble obeisances, all glories to Srila Prabhupada. In your comment, you bring up some very nice points, and I hope that I can help clarify some of them through quotes and my own realizations.
“It seems like a rather severe reaction, that we should be eternally conditioned, immersed in misery for countless lifetimes (bg 8.16) because we supposedly tinged our eternal loving service with a moment of envy, when we cannot even fathom how such envy could have existed. It’s hard to believe that Krishna was unable to think of a more gentle way of addressing this problem, but here we are.” I would agree, seeing it from this point of view, but consider this as well: Krishna, in His merciful love, gives His devotees what they want. “This body is a gift from God. God is very kind, and if someone wants something from Him, He allows it. “All right,” He says. “Take this.” His relationship to us is just like the relationship of a father to a son. The son may insist upon getting something from the father, and the father may try to convince him that what he wants is not for his good, saying, “My dear son, don’t touch this. This is not good for you.” But when the boy insists upon it, the father will allow him to have it. The affectionate father gives the son just what he wants. Similarly, the Supreme Father gives His sons and daughters just what they want.” – Elevation to Krishna Consciousness, Ch. 3
Coming to the material was what WE – the living entity wanted. Why did we want this? My realization is that the living entity, somehow or other, became desirous of being the center – being the enjoyer. Since EVERYTHING in the spiritual world is focused on Krishna’s enjoyment, this particular living entity became desirous of going somewhere where Krishna’s enjoyment wasn’t the sole focus – the material world. It is now up to us to realize that this is not actually a good thing to want, and thus return to desiring Krishna’s enjoyment whereupon we return to spiritual existence. Or we can remain desirous of our own enjoyment, and Krishna will continue to sadly (but lovingly) illusion us so that we may remain here.
“I can’t even understand what “at some point” means in the context of eternity in the spiritual world. Given that time does not pass away in Vaikuntha (Brahma Samhita 5.56) I can’t imagine how such a incompatible mood could arise there or how the jivas being expelled to wander in eternal misery could cause that desire there to perish.” The nature of time in the spiritual world quite often perplexes me, and mostly I resign the complex subject to the “find out when you get there” bin. Keeping in mind, however, that time does not “pass” there (everything is eternally in the Now), these so-called millions of material lifetimes are not actually going to feel like anything at all when we return to spiritual consciousness. It takes less time than a day dream. Just like one can go days and days and even years in a dream, but then wake up to find only a hour has passed. Still, you are right that we shouldn’t want or even accept the length of time we are here in material existence – let’s get out as soon as possible!
“Also, in one sense it is alright to say that we “somehow” desired to enjoy separately from Krishna because among the myriad jivas there may be many individual reasons. However I have never heard a single plausible reason, nor can I imagine one. This is especially troublesome because it seems to contradict the jiva’s purity, Krishna’s attractiveness, and the nature of bhakti in the spiritual world.” I heard a lecture where Radhanath Maharaja was relaying an answer he heard from Srila Prabhupada as to why the jiva soul would ever accept the material energy over the energetic source. The answer was quite simple, “Just like, someone is eating some halavah, and they might still want some puffed rice.” That’s it! That’s the whole answer!
Because we are qualitatively the same as Krishna, we also have the quality of independence, but because we are quantitatively different, our independence is severely limited. Krishna is the Supreme independent – He can do anything He wants, anytime He wants. We are infinitesimal independents – our free will lies really in only one choice. We can serve the internal energy, or we can serve the external energy. Still, the choice is there and some will use that independence to come under the influence of maya. Why would we choose this? Because we wanted some puffed rice. The jiva is still pure, but instantly from the contact with material energy there is the chance that the jiva forgets how to return to spiritual consciousness. Even in this covered state, the soul can never be considered as impure, or mixed with the material energy – even though it is under the influence of maya. In the Fifth Canto, Jada Bharata instructs this to King Rahugana.
As for the attractiveness of Krishna, there is no reason to doubt this at all! Think about it – the living entity is serving the internal or the external energy, but BOTH energies are stemming from Krishna. So no matter which energy a soul is infatuated with with, it can be said that they are attracted to Krishna. Krishna is All-Attractive!! As for the nature of bhakti, I am unfortunately not so intelligent that I can understand both what you mean and how to answer.
Dear Murali Das ,
A devotee is one who always chants name of Lord wherever he goes. Name of Hari and Hari is not different. So even a devotee goes to hell and remains chanting Lord’s holy name, that devotee is always with Krsna. Because Krsna’s name is Krsna Himself. So a devotee who is suffering from mental anguish but still able to chant Krsna’s holy name will never perish, even such devotee is currently residing in hell, becoming separated from Krsna by his own will. Krsna will take away all mental pains and gives bliss once such devotee just tests Lord’s holy name in his heart. So words in Bhagavat Gita never could be untrue and always proved to be absolute truth once it is realized by a devotee.
According to one theory, all the souls in this world are supposed to have fallen down into this world from Vaikuntha. Another point of view is given by Srila Prabhupada in the Isopanisad verse 16: “The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman.”
This point of view is what is expressed by the previous Acharyas in their writings.
I have never, ever, anyhwhere, seen any quote of any previous Acharya saying anything else besides this.
For example:
In Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s English translation of Sri Brahma Samhita. Text 21:
sa nityo nitya-sambandhah prakrtis ca paraiva sa
TRANSLATION: The same jiva is eternal and is for eternity and without a beginning joined to the Supreme Lord by the tie of an eternal kinship. He is transcendental spiritual potency.
PURPORT: Just as the sun is eternally associated with his rays so the transcendental Supreme Lord is eternally joined with the jivas. The jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence and are, therefore, not perishable like mundane things. Jivas, being particles of Godhead’s effulgent rays, exhibit on a minute scale the qualities of the Divinity. Hence jivas are identical with the principles of knowledge, knower, egoism, enjoyed, meditator and doer. Krishna is the all-pervading, all-extending Supreme Lord; while jivas have a different nature from His, being His atomic particles. That eternal relationship consists in this that the Supreme Lord is the eternal master and jivas are His eternal servants. Jivas have also sufficient eligibility in respect at the mellow quality of the Divinity. Apareyam itas tv anyam prakrtim viddhi me param. By this verse of the Geeta it is made known that jivas are His transcendental potency. All the qualities of the unalloyed soul are above the eightfold qualities such as egotism, etc., pertaining to His acit potency. Hence the jiva potency, though very small in magnitude, is still superior to acit potency or Maya. This potency has another name, viz., tatastha or marginal potency being located on the line demarcating the spheres of the spiritual and mundane potencies. He is susceptible to the influence of the material energy owing to his small magnitude. But so long as he remains submissive to Krsna, the Lord of Maya, he is not liable to the influence of Maya. The worldly afflictions, births and rebirths are the concomitants of the fettered condition of souls fallen into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning.
Note Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur’s statements here. “jivas are the infinitesimal particles of His spiritual effulgence”; and that these jiva souls are fallen “into the clutches of the deluding potency from a time that has no beginning”.
If we started off in Brahman (the spiritual sky) then fell into Maya, then Krishna has not abandoned any devotees and let the devotees suffer in Maya. The suffering souls in Maya were never devotees. They have never engaged in devotional activities in Vaikuntha-Goloka. We are simply fallen souls searching for Our Sweet Lord.
If we become Krishna Conscious we can surpass our original state of God Consciousness (Brahman) and become conscious of the higher state of God-consciousness called Bhagavan.
This comment by Antaryami Dasa.
Hare krsna prabhu’s, sadhu’s, Folk members and all concerned towards my article titled: a jiva perspective. First I would like to offer my respects unto His divine grace Srila A.C. Bhakti-vedanta swami prabhupada and to all the higher up’s in the line of devotion in bhakti yoga.
While reading the books I wanted to say something that would drive all devotees to read the books by the iskcon acharya. Since many devotees todate have become comfortable sitting before a computer and sifting out only small installments of info from the veda base and not actually reading the books cover to cover as they should, I desired for this idea and it is as follows.
Compile information from the books read and do not say what book or chapter the information’s are from. This I found while talking with many devotees, it angers them very much, devotees want an easy way around the books (where is it at ) then only look up that piece of scripture, rather then read the book in its entirety.
I will here apologize to all the devotees/sadhu’s: Please forgive me for this game I play psychologically. Actually I did not right the article titled: The importance of reading. Nor the article title: a jiva perspective. Both articles were drawn up and conceived by krsna through the mode’s of material nature goodness passion and ignorance due to my desire to say something in this way to stimulate a reading mood.
The three mode’s of material nature thought the articles out, then typed them and did the editing, I as a jiva did nothing but view from with-in this body the body perform the deeds. So in fact I am not sorry at all about your reading in mistake’s on these articles submitted, since I am not this body and nor are you that mind or that body. Maya and the mode’s of nature are responding to the articles they themselves have written under krsna’s directions. Hare krsna agtsp.
Interesting is that here it is stated that jiva is supposed to be removed from Krishna’s association, but this actually is not possible. As the jiva in no circumstances can be separated from Krishna and is followed by the Paramatma in the heart. We can therefore conclude that the jiva is always with Krishna but not aware of his presence in his conditioned state. I aggree that this article would need much more scriptural backup and doesnt really solve the jiva issue.
The karma factor
The following information’s are drawn from the books of his Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.
Karma as explained in the vedas is the re-actions to past works/deeds from the point the jiva entered the earthly sphere. Karma can be of many past human life times, as well the present, more so of past human life’s. Sometimes karma is referred to as work/action not re-actions as referred to here-in.
To begin; the jiva in the earthly sphere is injected into a human womb via semen. In the womb, during birth and after, the jiva will witness/view its new body, mind and senses receive a variety of information, foods, beverage’s, bodily pleasures, pains, many relationships established, good and bad.
The jiva desires always to adjust, the desires are monitored by krsna and his material administration. Sri krsna is all pervading in atoms, molecules, time, the heart, the moving and non moving. One short note to remember; The jiva is the passenger of the body and not the driver.
According to the veda’s a certain allotment of karma is set aside for the jiva to experience in the womb as well during active life. This karma will be applied by maya and the modes of material nature. Maya and material nature are krsna’s hands to act and do the needful with the material body/mind/sense’s of an encaged jiva. A complex part is, karma comes at the jiva at pacific periods during life, it is not free flowing or blind.
Again keep in mind the jiva is not the material body nor it’s mind, senses etc, though the jiva wants to enjoy through these. To do this the jiva acquires a false ego to identify with the body. The jiva desires to relate as in goloka/vikunta, but in mahat-tatva there are no actual relations, relations are illusions based on karma, desire and the material body.
In the S.B. uddhava asked krsna this question: If the jiva is not in contact with the body at all, then who is feeling, tasting, eating, experiencing the bodies all and all’s, inside and out ?. Krsna’s answer to uddhava: No-one. Maya’s job is to keep the jiva convinced that the body, mind, senses, this world etc are the all and all, and that there is nothing beyond this.
The body is souly maintained by material nature according to karma and krsna, S.B. states: There is very little one can do to change the bodies health or living conditions of a given body, as stated above; an allotted quota is set aside for the body etc to experience in a life time. Exercises, fancy diet, vitamin supplements etc are ephemeral. The Iskcon acarya states: health is based on karma not so much the diet, one may temporarily make the body better through such idea’s but karma set aside for the body will be the final factor. As stated in the books; what one is due to experience one will experience.
Because material bodies are machine’s there is no reason to feel sorry for anyone, any place or time etc. The jiva is not the do’er nor the suffering, it is only the material body, mind etc that is subjected to karma’s, the jiva feels nothing. Easier said: feelings are actually false identifications with a material body, mind etc. The soul is eternal- sat, sit, ananda, vigraha. As stated B.G.; The wise lament neither for the living, lame or the dead.
In the C.C. Srila prabhupada states: The type of work one is doing is one’s own choice, but what one is experiencing/receiving, the resultings of such work etc is karma. He says: that our work is not the cause of our income, a quota has been set and one cannot exceed the quota by any working means.
Again the body is a machine, no machine can help another machine unless krsna sanctions the helping or resultings. Also a jiva does not sleep at night but only waits till material nature again makes the body/mind/senses active again, morning. In short, krsna is doing everything, maya and the three modes of nature cannot see this by krsna’s will.
If at some point the jiva desires to awaken krsna consciousness, krsna through the mode’s of nature direct a jiva’s body, mind and senses to achieve this goal. How sincere the jiva is will determine the time line. B.G.; From the time one commences the bhakti yoga process to the culmination is a long long way. What ever the jiva desires the modes direct in that way, good and/or bad, as stated B.G.; one need only know how to act.
Other karma factors mentioned in the books are: A husband receives 50% of the wife’s karma, vice-versa. Parents receive one sixth of their parents, vice-versa. This also applies to the children, they receive one sixth of the parents karma, vice-versa.
Looking at world karma: Srila Prabhupada stated L.L. 1976.: I thought that with this mass book distribution we could ward off the third world war. But now I see it is inevitable, there will be war nuclear war and there will be mass devastation.
In one human life spanning roughly 100-yrs a jiva can accrue enough karma to remain perpetually in the durga correctional facility-mahat-tatva.
This ends the karma factor in a nutshell. Please read all the books. Hare krsna, agtsp.
Antaryami Dasa