Answers by HH Romapada Swami
Q: During one of our recent discussions in our study group there was a discussion on siddha svarup.
One of the devotees said that the spiritual master would reveal one’s svarup at some point of time when such a disciple has reached such a stage. My humble opinion is that such a practice is not there in ISKCON and as and when a devotee reaches such a stage of advancement it will be known to him naturally.
Can I humbly request you to kindly clarify this?
Answer: Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.
Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature. The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)
You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail. However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.
The complaint first. The source-link offered on the end of the article, leads not to Romapada Swami’s discussion page, but to a strange page where there’s no Romapada Swami, instead there are a few other links and most lead to link-lists where prominently figures a link entitled “Breaking free from ISKCON”, which contains very low and offensive material.
Good to correct this.
Otherwise, thanks for the article.
Ys Yamuna j das
Chapter 9 of the Nectar of Devotion where Prabhupada explains lalasamayi refers to the verse 1.2.152 of the Second Wave of Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu dealing with Sadhana Bhakti.
So, lalasamayi or laulyam is not to be cultivated only after being liberated.
samprārthanātmikā dainya-bodhikā lālasāmayī |
ity ādir vividhā dhīraiḥ kṛṣṇe vijñaptir īritā ||1.2.152 ||
“The wise have explained that there are varieties of entreaty to Kṛṣṇa, such as prayers, admission of incompetence and expressions of longing.”
Lalasamayi in svarupa siddhi stage is very intense, but lalasamayi or laulyam begin well before in Sadhana stage. And this is what Prabhupada is explaining when he says that lalasamayi (intense) comes in the stage of svarupa siddhi.
Not to mention that lobha is also described in Sadhana stage. BRS 1.2.292.
In Sadhana stage the devotee can meditate on his siddha svarupa. Perhaps not with many details (ekadas bhava), but in a more simple way as instructed by Sadasiva to Narada Muni in Sanat Kumara Samhita (in this case there aroused lobha by madhurya). And then will slowly increasing the details of his meditation:
Sanat Kumara Samhita:
“184 and 185
atmanam cintayet tatra
tasam madhye manoramam
rupa-yauvana-sampannam
kisorim pramadakritim
nana-silpa-kalabhijnam
krishna-bhoganurupinim
prarthitam api krishnena
tato bhoga-paranmukhim
The sadhaka should think of oneself as a beautiful young gopi girl expert in various arts, pleasing to Lord Krishna, reluctant to directly enjoy with Lord Krsna even if He were personally to invite you, . . .
186
radhikanucarim nityam
tat-sevana-parayanam
krishnad apy adhikam prema
radhikayam prakurvatim
. . . a follower of Sri Radha, always devoted to Her service, more affectionate to Sri Radha than to Lord Krsna Himself, . . .
187
prityanudivasam yatnat
tayoh sangama-karinim
tat-sevana-sukhasvada-
bharenati-su-nirvritam
. . . every day carefully and affectionately arranging the meeting of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, and becoming happy to see Them pleased by your service.
188
ity atmanam vicintyaiva
tatra sevam samacaret
brahma-muhurtam arabhya
yavat santa maha-nisa
Thinking of oneself in this way, one should serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna from the early morning of brahma-muhurta to the end of night.”
I say no more.
Well, only one more thing:
From Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.3.16-17, Gorakhpur, February 18, 1971:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
Yes. Not directly. No. You cannot say that “I have become Sudama.” No. You have to follow the footsteps of Sudama. “I have become mother Yashoda.” No. You have to follow the footsteps of mother Yashoda. That is real position. And as soon as you say, “I am Yashoda. I am Sudama,” then it is as good as the Mayavadis say, “I am God.” You see? So dasa-dasanudasa. That process should be followed.
Hansadutta: Suppose someone is satisfied simply being related with the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: That is everyone’s business. Everyone’s business. That is not a particular taste. That is the duty of all devotees.
First point, when I was Srila Prabhupad’s personal secretary, a letter came to His Divine Grace that there was a “gopi bhava” club of sorts in Los Angeles. Srila Prabhupad said: “Gopi bhava club! Let them first chant Hare Krishna for 300 years and then they can discuss gopi bhava.”
Secondly, the jiva souls are parts and parcels of Krishna, achintya bedabeda tattva. The liberated lovers of Krishna have senses that are expansions of Krishna’s senses. Hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate. Krishna has expanded Himself to increase His pleasure and He relishes the rasas with the bhaktas. The bhaktas are fully overwhelmed by Krishna’s beauty, ecstasy and love. The liberated souls are “Krishna consious”, not self conscious. Their consciousness is virtually one with Krishna, although it is a correct philosophical point that the jiva soul does not cease to exist. The cowherd boys walked into the mouth of Aghasura thinking that…’this cave may actually be a demon and it may kill us, but it cannot kill Krishna.’ Their consciousness is fully immersed in Krishna. The gopis when called by Krishna’s flute drop every thing they appeared to be doing externally and immediately rush to be with Krishna.
It is thus potentially a pitfall to be thinking about one’s “future” role. We have seen these topics being bantered about and they may continue to be…but for me, I pray to Krishna that He may please give me His shelter and engage me as He would like for His pleasure. Once we separate ourselves from pleasing Krishna to take time out to contemplate what our spiritual body may be, ie spiritual rasa, may be, we run the risk of material consiideration, ie prakrita sahajaya, whereby one desires to be the enjoyer. This can be avoided. On the other hand, we can hear about and relish the pastimes of Krishna with His devotees, not trying to immitate, but rather appreciating their qualities. Even Krishna appreciates the qualities of the devotees, as He sent His dear friend to witness the super-excellent quality of Krishna consciousness and love expressed by the gopis. Uddhava’s response was to become a blade of grass in Vrindaban that he might be blessed by the dust of the lotus feet of the gopis.
Srila Rupa Goswami recommended 3 things: enthusiasm, determination, and patience. Hare Krishna.
Pusta Krishna das
1 – 300 years … Srila Prabhupada was really upset. But I think he was angry because those devotees did something out consulting him and they were not prepared. But I do not think Srila Prabhupada actually wished to say that 300 years of no Raganuga Sadhana.
Example of this:
“Vaidhī-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, parā-bhakti, that is rāgānugā-bhakti. This rāgānugā-bhakti, we have to come after surpassing the vaidhī-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that…That is not real honey. You have to open the bottle of the honey and lick up the real honey, then you’ll get taste. That is advancement of spiritual knowledge.” (Lecture on SB 1.2.33 — Vrndavana, November 12, 1972)
2 – A friend of mine said: “It can pass as surrender as well: “Oh I don’t want to impose my will on Krsna, He can make me whatever He wants me to be and I will be happy”. This meaning of surrender ignores Krsna’s unique quality of wanting always to reciprocate with the DESIRES of His devotee. He doesn’t reciprocate if we don’t have desire for Him – what can He reciprocate with? He is all-attractive, we should be desirous! Devotional service should be full of desire for Krsna, ranging in intensity up to Prema. If it’s lacking in desire, it lacks in results.”
3 – Certainly we should not imitate dressing in Saris :D, and we should hear the sweet pastimes of Krsna … by doing this will emerge an impetus for a particular Rasa that we must internally cultivate by following an intimate associate of Krsna.
“Special natural appreciation of the descriptions of a particular pastime of Godhead indicates the constitutional position of a living entity.” (Srila Prabhupada – Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.34)
Prabhupada was against ahaṅgrahopāsanā and against dressing externally as the associates of Krsna.
But Prabhupada gave us the structured process of Sadhana Raganuga we should follow:
“If one wrongly thinks that the material body is as perfect as the spiritual body and thus begins to worship Kṛṣṇa by imitating the damsels of Vṛndāvana, he becomes infested with Māyāvāda (impersonal) philosophy. The impersonalists recommend a process of ahaṅgrahopāsanā, by which one worships his own body as the Supreme. Thinking in this way, such pseudo-transcendentalists dress themselves as the damsels of Vraja. Such activities are not acceptable in devotional service. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, the most authoritative ācārya in the Gauḍīya-sampradāya, has condemned these imitators. The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore to think oneself a direct associate of the Supreme Lord is condemned. According to authorized Vaiṣṇava principles, one should follow a particular devotee and not think of himself as Kṛṣṇa’s associate.
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world. One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
(1)By adopting this emotional mood of following in the footsteps of the gopīs, one attains his siddha-deha. (2)This word indicates the pure spiritual body, which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. The siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. (3)No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his perfectly pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination.” (Srila Prabhupada – TLC Chapter 31)
And what is this structured process of Raganuga Sadhana that Prabhupada has given us? This is it: “One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress.”
Prabhupada is explaining here that the Siddha Deha has 3 phases:
1 – On Sadhana phase meditate in the ddesired Siddha Deha.
2 – In the advanced stage of Bhava, the devotee realize the Siddha Deha, which is called Svarupa Siddhi.
3 – When born from the womb of a Gopi in a material universe reaches the final realization of the Siddha Deha, which is called Vastu Siddhi.
For God’s sake, Raganuga is Sadhana and not the stage of perfection. Raganuga is included in Sadhana stage of Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu.
Please be careful. Krishna consciousness is about loving Krishna. Sri Krishna reciprocates with His ecstatic loving unique ways. There are descriptions of kalpa-vriksha, wish fulfilling spiritual trees, and the like in Goloka Vrindaban. The desire of the devotee in liberation is prema-bhakti, selfless love for Krishna Who represents “Raso vai sah”. Any articles for offering are to enhance Krishna’s pleasure. He is indeed rasa, sweetness of all spiritual relationships for all. Truly, the super-excellence of the gopis and other spiritual forms in Goloka is their fullness of consciousness of Krishna. They are not at all enjoyers, but givers. It is also achintya. Even when Krishna desires to dance with His gopis, they submit for His pleasure. They deposit everything in Krishna and Krishna reciprocates…but then the inhabitants of Goloka do not keep anything for themselves, but rather continue to deposit all of their love and ecstasy back to Krishna. Krishna’s love is all in all. This reciprocal spiritual current is rasa. Yes, and ultimately we hear that Krishna is ultimately won over by the charm os Srimati Radharani’s selfless boundless love. These gopis are the servants of Their loving relationship.
Raganuga and vaidhi are conceived of by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma as different dispositions of different devotees. Ultimately, all will culminate in raganuga as it must because of the super-excellence of Krishna prema. Spontaneous noncalculating love for Krishna.
However, what I have expressed in my comment above, is Srila Prabhupad’s own expression. Sripad Prahladesh das, I think, is possibly misunderstanding what he expresses as “DESIRES” of the bhakta. The bhakta is desireless (na socati na kanshati) neither hankering for anything nor lamenting for anything material, ie for their own advantage. I am sure that the desire that Prahladesh is alluding to is purely spiritual. I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional. Rather, consideration for loving and pleasing Krishna is the quality of devotion that is paramount. Srila Prabhupad hated the thought that his mission might degrade into a sahajiya movement either externally or internally on the mental plane. We worship the mood of the inhabitants of Vrindaban for it is all for Krishna. Krishna will supply the means, including the perfect spiritual form for the bhakta to love Him as Sri Krishna knows the heart of the devotee intimately. The liberated devotee is not self-conscious, but rather Krishna conscious. The nectar, the opening of the “honey jar” described above, that too is for the pleasure of Krishna. What joy and ecstasy that Krishna may offer the bhakta is offered back to Krishna with profound spiritual love, in full submission, and not for one’s own digestion. That is the expression of love in Goloka, all for Krishna. We can appreciate that mood in the pastimes of the inhabitants of Vrindaban in Krishna lila. And, we take shelter of their divine mood of devotion.
Pusta Krishna das
Thank you Sriman Pusta Krsna Dasa Prabhu. I understand your concern about not wanting the movement of Srila Prabhupada to become a Sahajiya Movement (internally and externally).
It’s not that externally the devotee will just stay all day doing Lila Smarana and will not do anything practical. No. Externally the devotee must be very active to distribute Prabhupada’s books, distribute Prasadam and go on Harinama.
And internally should not want to enjoy a relationship with Krsna but should have an attitude of service. This is all very clear. A devotee who comes to the point of aim Raganuga Sadhana and deepen in Rasa Tattva will already have gone through all Bhagavatam cantos and all the Tattvas of Bhakti and certainly understand that a devotee only aims to fulfill Krsna’s desires, not their own ….. and exactly because of this the devotee “DESIRE” to serve Krsna in a particular Rasa.
“In the Skanda Purāṇa there is a statement about submission unto the lotus feet of the Lord. It is said there that those who are sober devotees can offer their submission to Kṛṣṇa in the following three ways: (1) samprārthanātmikā, very feelingly offering prayers; (2) dainya-vodhikā, humbly submitting oneself; (3) lālasā-mayī, desiring some perfectional stage. This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification. When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be reinstated in this position, either as friend, servant, parent or conjugal lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is called lālasā-mayī, or very eagerly desiring to go to one’s natural position. This lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation, which is technically called svarūpa-siddhi, when the living entity understands, by perfect spiritual advancement and revelation, his original relationship with the Lord.” (Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada – NOD 9)
“This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification.”
Note that Prabhupada is here to explain that lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation called svarūpa-siddhi. But this desire for a specific relationship begins well before:
“Hamsadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.”
So, the devotee “desire” to achieve the perfect stage for …. satisfy the “desire” of Krsna.
Wish to attain perfection in a specific Rasa is not sense gratification. But it is a sympton of submission.
“In the Skanda Purāṇa there is a statement about submission unto the lotus feet of the Lord. It is said there that those who are sober devotees can offer their submission to Kṛṣṇa in the following three ways: (1) samprārthanātmikā, very feelingly offering prayers; (2) dainya-vodhikā, humbly submitting oneself; (3) lālasā-mayī, desiring some perfectional stage. This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification. When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be reinstated in this position, either as friend, servant, parent or conjugal lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is called lālasā-mayī, or very eagerly desiring to go to one’s natural position. This lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation, which is technically called svarūpa-siddhi, when the living entity understands, by perfect spiritual advancement and revelation, his original relationship with the Lord.” (Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada – NOD 9)
Praladesh prabhu,what is meant by sober devotees above. Thank you.
ysvt.
Or in other words, the devotee wants to achieve perfection in a specific Rasa because then he will be able to better serve Krsna.
A devotee never, never, never, ever think of his own satisfaction. But how to serve Krsna in a specific and intrinsic Rasa which the devotee is attracted.
The Krsna consciousness process begins with the act of sravanam “hear ” – hear about the names, forms, qualities, pastimes (Lilas), home and associates of Krishna.
When we listen with faith and with right attitude, the topics and / or spoken by Kṛṣṇa (kṛṣṇa-katha), two auspicious things happen:
(1) by hearing about Krishna lila in relation to the material world, including killing demons, anarthas (unwanted and contaminated things) are removed from our consciousness (Heart);
(2) by hearing (of a pure devotee) on the esoteric or confidential activities of Krsna, inspiring onself to follow in the footsteps of one of his eternal associates, we awaken our dormant relationship with Kṛṣṇa.
So Srila Prabhupada gave us the “Krishna Book” to read forever.
But not only that. In Krsna Book, Prabhupada recommends reading all Lila Granthas like Krishna Bhavanamrta and others.
By doing that inevitably one impetus for Raganuga Sadhana will arise. There is no way to avoid it.
RPS: “Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.”
US: This is absolutely not at all what the acaryas teach in their books. First of all, the guru does not ‘reveal’ one’s relationship with Krsna, and second, it happens ‘before’ the liberated platform, otherwise, one could not attain the liberated platform, ie: bhava and prema. And one does ‘not’ have to be completely free from the modes of nature either.
In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, First Wave, Chapter 2, Sadhana-bhakti, Rupa Gosvami states that there are two types of sadhana-bhakti, ie: vaidhi and raganuga. The qualifications he gives for raganuga are that one has awakened or realized the ‘type’ of relationship one desires with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and one has identified a particular nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi whose raga and bhava one aspires to follow (anuga). Along with these two elements the key criterion is that one has an intense desire to attain that relationship, ie: lobha – greed.
No mention is made in BRS or the commentaries, or in any other books of the acaryas, that one must first be liberated or freed from the modes of nature. That is completely illogical and rather absurd because it implies that one must first become liberated in order to ‘practice’ raganuga-sadhana so that one can then become liberated! None of the acaryas teach this.
When Srila Prabhupada said liberated in NOD he did not literally mean the liberated platform. He meant freed from the influence of major anarthas. This is confirmed by Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Madhurya-kadambini where he explains that anartha-nivritti continues all the way up to the stage of bhava.
According to Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti one’s desired relationship (rasa or rati) awakens over many lifetimes of impressions from sadhana and sadhu-sanga. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas.
RPS: “Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature.
US: “ As quoted by Prahladadesh above, Srila Prabhupada does not agree with this idea. Here he is asked specifically about a ‘neophyte’ devotee, who is obviously still engaged in sadhana:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
RPS: “The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)”
US: This is also incorrect siddhanta. Lobha or laulyam absolutely must arise while one is still practicing (sadhana) or one cannot attain bhava or prema. It is the very prerequisite for attaining perfection – prema. This is also explained in BRS in the chapter on sadhana-bhakti:
The qualification for rāgānugā-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy (lobha) for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in rāgātmikā-bhakti – is qualified for rāgānugā-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291
Viśvanātha Cakravartī elaborates on this verse after quoting it in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:
If one thinks, “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Kṛṣṇa of His associates, the gopīs in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments. If such impetuses are there (i.e., suitable sanctions or logical arguments), then it cannot be justly called greed.
This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether or not he is qualified for the path of rāgānugā-bhakti. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him. RVC, 1.5
In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains how greed/lobha arises:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
RPS: “You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail.”
US: Those details are readily available if one studies the books of the previous acaryas as Srila Prabhupada instructed us to do repeatedly in his books. And studying these books will also shed additional light onto Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.
RPS: “However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.”
US: Knowledge is ‘acquired’ by hearing and studying the books of the acaryas. Knowledge is not ‘revealed’. What is revealed are the deeper layers of understanding, or imports, of that acquired knowledge. That’s how it works. No one is going to have all of the detailed knowledge from BRS or any other book ‘revealed’ to them during japa.
I encourage all devotees to take the time to seriously study the major books of the previous acaryas to enhance their understanding of what Srila Prabhupada taught us in his books. By doing so, one can go deeper in their understanding and also become aware of the full details they have given us for our benefit, having been instructed personally by Lord Caitanya. Then all of these misconceptions will be eradicated and one will properly understand that actual process to attain Vraja prema.
PK: “First point, when I was Srila Prabhupada’s personal secretary, a letter came to His Divine Grace that there was a “gopi bhava” club of sorts in Los Angeles. Srila Prabhupada said: “Gopi bhava club! Let them first chant Hare Krishna for 300 years and then they can discuss gopi bhava.””
US: The old gopi-bhava club being brought up again. This incident has nothing to do with raganuga-bhakti, nor did Srila Prabhupada say that it did. It had to do with neophyte devotees who were barely in the movement for 3-5 years and who prematurely ventured into trying to understand Krsna’s conjugal pastimes without any guidance. That’s it.
It is not relevant to this discussion nor to devotees who have been engaged in bhakti for over 40 years or even 10 years. And we can see from Srila Prabhupada’s discussion quoted above, about even neophyte devotees awakening an attraction for a particular relationship with Krsna, that he encouraged that they should ‘develop’ or ‘cultivate’ these desires, even in the beginning stages. He didn’t mention chanting for 300 years in that discussion, did he?
And regarding the gopi-bhava club, if you read the transcripts you will see that Srila Prabhupada was not entirely against them wanting to understand these things by reading his books – because that’s all they were doing – ie: reading the very same books that Srila Prabhupada had us distribute to completely fallen non-devotees who would also read these things.
PK: “The liberated souls are “Krishna conscious”, not self conscious. Their consciousness is virtually one with Krishna, although it is a correct philosophical point that the jiva soul does not cease to exist.”
US: This is not at all how the acaryas describe Vraja lila. The concept of being “Krsna conscious” does not fully convey what is going on in Vraja. Vraja is all about “relationships” not “consciousness”. And relationships are the very basis for the exchange of love/prema, which is part of the overall experience of ‘rasa’.
So everyone in Vraja is fully absorbed in their “relationships” with Krsna and the unique flavors of prema that flow reciprocally from those relationships. Discussing the lila from the perspective of “consciousness” is completely missing the point and skewing the esoteric truth of these subjects.
PK: “It is thus potentially a pitfall to be thinking about one’s “future” role.”
US: This is completely contrary to what the acaryas and Srila Prabhupada have taught. The whole point of bhakti is to come to the point of awakening your desired relationship with Krsna. There is no other point, and this is precisely the process Lord Caitanya came to teach by His personal example and through the books of His acaryas, ie: raganuga-bhakti. There is no pitfall in doing so. The actual pitfall is in not understanding that one should aspire to come this stage.
CC Ādi 4.15-16 — The Lord’s desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction (raga-marga). Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all.
CC Ādi 4.17 — [Lord Kṛṣṇa thought:] “All the universe is filled with the conception of My majesty, but love weakened by that sense of majesty does not satisfy Me.
CC Ādi 4.18 — “If one regards Me as the Supreme Lord and himself as a subordinate, I do not become subservient to his love, nor can it control Me.
CC Ādi 4.19 — “In whatever transcendental mellow My devotee worships Me, I reciprocate with him. That is My natural behavior.
CC Ādi 4.20 — “ ‘In whatever way My devotees surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.’
CC Ādi 4.21-22 — “If one cherishes pure loving devotion to Me, thinking of Me as his son, his friend or his beloved, regarding himself as great and considering Me his equal or inferior, I become subordinate to him.
PK: “We have seen these topics being bantered about and they may continue to be… but for me, I pray to Krishna that He may please give me His shelter and engage me as He would like for His pleasure.”
US: This is another common misconception, ie: that we should desire to serve Krsna in Vraja how He wants us to. That is not the mentality of one engaged in raganuga, which is all about “our” desires to serve Krsna in a particular way. Krsna wants “us” to manifest “our” desires to have a particular relationship with Him. When the acaryas discuss raganuga they all use phrases like, “according to one’s preferences or taste or desires or inclinations”. They never say according to how Krsna wants you to serve Him.
That mentality applies only to sadhakas who are in an external service mode of dasanudasa. The unique thing about Vraja lila is that Krsna fulfills the desires of His devotees to love Him in a unique way – that’s what brings Him the most pleasure, ie: the personal relationship – not the “service”.
PK: “Once we separate ourselves from pleasing Krishna to take time out to contemplate what our spiritual body may be, ie spiritual rasa, may be, we run the risk of material consideration, ie prakrita sahajiya, whereby one desires to be the enjoyer. This can be avoided.”
US: This idea is not congruent with the teachings of the acaryas. To cultivate one’s desired relationship does not “separate us from pleasing Krsna”. That is ridiculous. It is precisely what pleases Him the most! That is the whole basis of raganuga-bhakti and specifically what Lord Caitanya came to teach as quoted above.
And I really wish people would stop using the “sahajiya” bogeyman card. There is a much greater and wide-spread problem with people propagating misconceptions of the correct process – as revealed in these responses – than there is a risk of becoming a sahajiya.
Let’s examine the actual facts. In BRS in the chapter on Sadhana-bhakti Rupa Gosvami explains the process of raganuga-sadhana and bhajana. Note the details regarding one’s siddha-deha:
Remembering the Vṛndāvana form of Kṛṣṇa and His dear associates who have inclinations for service similar to one’s own, absorbing oneself in hearing topics related to them, one should always live in Vraja. BRS, 1.2.294
Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one’s physical body (sādhaka-rūpa) and in one’s siddha body (siddha-rūpa), with a desire for a particular bhāva [of a Vraja associate – vraja-lokānusārataḥ]. BRS, 1.2.295
From Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Sādhaka-rūpa refers to the physical body of the practitioner. Siddha-rūpa refers to the body which is suitable for one’s desired service, “and which has been developed by internal meditation”. (siddha-rūpeṇa antas-cintitabhiṣta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena) One serves with a desire for the particular bhāva or rati of an associate of Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja.
From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
One performs service with the sādhaka-rūpa – the present body – and with the siddha-rūpa – the body which is suitable for serving Vraja Kṛṣṇa in the particular type of rati or bhāva one desires, “and which appears through inner contemplation”, with a desire for a particular rati directed to one’s beloved Kṛṣṇa situated in Vṛndāvana.
One should follow after the dear devotees of Kṛṣṇa such as Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and those following after them – persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs. Accordingly, “one should perform mental service (mānasi-sevā) in one’s siddha-rūpa”, following after the examples of Śrī Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and others. In one’s physical body, one should perform services using one’s body, following after persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs situated in Vraja.
PK: “Srila Rupa Goswami recommended 3 things: enthusiasm, determination, and patience.”
US: This is a gross over-simplification of Rupa Gosvami’s teachings. One need only study BRS with both commentaries to learn the actual details of the process to attain bhava-bhakti and then prema-bhakti, ie: raganuga-bhakti.
PS: “Please be careful. Krishna consciousness is about loving Krishna. Sri Krishna reciprocates with His ecstatic loving unique ways. There are descriptions of kalpa-vriksha, wish fulfilling spiritual trees, and the like in Goloka Vrindaban. The desire of the devotee in liberation is prema-bhakti, selfless love for Krishna Who represents “Raso vai sah”. Any articles for offering are to enhance Krishna’s pleasure. He is indeed rasa, sweetness of all spiritual relationships for all.”
US: This is an incomplete understanding of Vraja lila and the relationship of Krsna with His devotees. Even though the devotees in Vraja don’t have any selfish desires for themselves, Krsna Himself desires to give pleasure and enjoyment to His devotees, even more than they do for Him. Thus, everyone there enjoys the highest ecstasies at every moment. In Srila Vyasadeva’s Vedanta-sutras it is explained thus:
The liberated jiva, if he has a body, enjoys as in the waking state. VS, 4.4.14
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s commentary:
With a body, the jiva can enjoy (more intensely), as in the waking state. The argument that the liberated jiva has no desire is not proper because rasa, which is to be enjoyed, becomes desired by the jiva, since it is the mercy of the Lord.
Though the Lord is satisfied in Himself, He has desires to enjoy because of the desire of the devotee (to give him enjoyment). Similarly, the liberated jiva has desires for enjoying what is given as the mercy of the Lord, because of his bhakti to the Lord (accepting it to please the Lord).
PK: “Raganuga and vaidhi are conceived of by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma as different dispositions of different devotees. Ultimately, all will culminate in raganuga as it must because of the super-excellence of Krishna prema. Spontaneous non calculating love for Krishna.”
US: Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura does not “conceive” anything. He directly teaches the siddhanta given by Rupa Gosvami and the previous acaryas, as taught to them by Lord Caitanya. The difference between vaidhi and raganuga is not just the “disposition” of devotees. One must be qualified to practice raganuga, which, as I showed in my first post, requires that one has awakened their desired relationship with Krsna and has developed greed to attain that.
And it’s not an automatic given that those who are practicing vaidhi-bhakti will become qualified for raganuga because of prema. That doesn’t even make sense. One practices raganuga to “attain” prema. The intended purpose of vaidhi-bhakti is to eventually become qualified for raganuga-bhakti, and that should be everyone’s desire, but because of so many misconceptions about these subjects, most devotees do not properly understand how these things unfold or are related.
And prema is more accurately understood as love in a specific relationship, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya. “Non-calculating” has nothing to do with it. Prema is not generic – it is specifically connected to a particular type of relationship – which is why one must awaken their desired relationship first, in order to attain that type of prema. You don’t get prema first and then your relationship. It’s the other way around.
PK: “However, what I have expressed in my comment above, is Srila Prabhupad’s own expression. Sripad Prahladesh das, I think, is possibly misunderstanding what he expresses as “DESIRES” of the bhakta. The bhakta is desireless (na socati na kanshati) neither hankering for anything nor lamenting for anything material, ie for their own advantage. I am sure that the desire that Prahladesh is alluding to is purely spiritual.”
US: No one can be “desireless”. That is impossible. It is part of the svarupa of a jiva. Desireless refers only to material desires because a realized devotee is filled with spiritual desires related to their relationship with Krsna. Please refer to the quote from the Vedanta-sutras I gave above.
PK: “I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional.”
US: This is certainly utter nonsense, and it is completely against the teachings of the acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. I caution the devotee community to reject such blatant misconceptions and to learn the facts from the acaryas. I have given ample proof directly from BRS and the acaryas that this is precisely what the process is. Here are the facts as explained by Srila Prabhupada in TLC, page 318:
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world.
One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
And from CC, 2.8.204-205:
Without the help of the gopīs, one cannot enter into these pastimes. Only one who worships the Lord in the ecstasy of the gopīs, following in their footsteps, can engage in the service of Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa in the bushes of Vṛndāvana. Only then can one understand the conjugal love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. There is no other procedure for understanding.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Purport:
The means for returning home, for going back to Godhead, is devotional service, but everyone has a different taste in the Lord’s service. One may be inclined to serve the Lord in servitude (dāsya-rasa), fraternity (sakhya-rasa) or parental love (vātsalya-rasa), but none of these can enable one to enter into the service of the Lord in conjugal love. To attain such service, one has to follow in the footsteps of the gopīs in the ecstasy of sakhī-bhāva. Then only can one understand the transcendental mellow of conjugal love.
PK: “Rather, consideration for loving and pleasing Krishna is the quality of devotion that is paramount. Srila Prabhupada hated the thought that his mission might degrade into a sahajiya movement either externally or internally on the mental plane.”
US: Srila Prabhupada was even more concerned that his disciples would not actually study his books and the books of the acaryas and as a result, they would espouse so many shocking misconceptions like we see here in this discussion.
Pusta Krishna das said: “I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional.”
but…
[http://vedabase.net/nod/16/en1]:
“This development of conjugal love for Krishna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krishna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrindavana. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrindavana when Krishna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krishna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life.
The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrindavana, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krishna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krishna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krishna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrindavana. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krishna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krishna.
Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krishna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula, and as they had desired in their previous lives, they enjoyed the company of Lord Krishna, who was present at that time in Gokula Vrindavana. The perfection of their human form of life was thus achieved by their generating a transcendental sentiment to share conjugal love with Lord Krishna.”
“Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord’s playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord’s pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart.”
[http://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/10/33/39]
“Words that do not describe the transcendental Lord but instead deal with temporary matters are simply false, harsh and useless. Only those words that manifest the qualities of the Supreme Lord are actually truthful, auspicious and pure.” [SB 12.12.49]
Speaking for myself, I am so tired of this material “Bhava” for material temporary things that always change and go away. I want to feel, in my heart, real spiritual blissful electrifying ecstatic Bhava for Krsna who is permanent and eternal. I want to invest all my love, energies and time into Krsna as He will not deceived me like all these material temporary illusions.
How can I develop Bhava for Krsna if I know nothing about Him and His sweet pastimes?
How can I stop my attraction for material temporary illusions if I do not feel real love and attraction for Krsna?
Your spiritual future is not merely the culmination of your current aspirations. The mercy of Sri Krishna and His confidantes is essential. If you are so inclined, obtain a copy of my book “God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker.” Read Chapter 6. Everyone has their experience, and in addition to offering my “two cents” (apparently not of much value to the above discussion), you might benefit from a fortunate bhakta’s experience. Then if you still have the conviction to give your erudite critique, so be it. But you will need to see the Center of the target. Krishna is naturally the essence of all rasa, and His love and friendship, His mercy, may astound you. One must be free from envy, nirmatsaram, as the worship of the inhabitants of Vraja and their moods of devotion, frees one from subtle delusion. After you have read it, perhaps your insight will expand. Best wishes and all success in your spiritual progression in Krishna consciousness. Pusta Krishna das
PK: “Your spiritual future is not merely the culmination of your current aspirations.”
US: Not “merely”? According to our acaryas that is precisely what the essence of the process of raganuga-bhakti is. The key aspect of raganuga-sadhana-bhajana is to focus your intense longing on your desired relationship with Krsna while remembering Vraja lila. Here are a few references. From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
From Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita:
In his internal meditation, the sādhaka serves the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa in a particular rasa, with a form, dress, and so on that are suitable for his service. Achieving perfection at the end of his life, he enters Vaikuṇṭha. At that time, his heart is attracted to that previous rasa in which, while he was in the sādhaka stage, he worshiped the Lord, and he accepts an identical dress and form, knowing them to be dear to Śrī Bhagavān. BB, 2.4.145-146
From Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Whoever comes to Vaikuṇṭha realizes the very same service to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa for which he had developed a taste by the end of his material life, and he realizes that service in full detail, with its dress, form, and so on, for each mood of devotion is dear to the Personality of Godhead and each gives pleasure to the devotee absorbed in it.
PK: “The mercy of Sri Krishna and His confidantes is essential.”
US: Mercy is always a constant factor and I didn’t minimize that in anything I said before. In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (BRS), raganuga-bhakti is said to be the path of mercy:
The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy). BRS, 1.2.309
PK: “If you are so inclined, obtain a copy of my book “God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker.” Read Chapter 6. Everyone has their experience, and in addition to offering my “two cents” (apparently not of much value to the above discussion), you might benefit from a fortunate bhakta’s experience.”
US: I read your post on Dandavats about your book and your vision of Krsna or Visnu. I have no doubt it was a life-changing and wonderful experience for you. That is your great good fortune to be blessed like that. I know a number of devotees who have had similar experiences.
Nevertheless, that does not mean that you or anyone else are exempt from the necessity to engage in the specific processes taught by Lord Caitanya to our acaryas, ie: raganuga-bhakti, if you want to actually enter into Vraja lila in a personal relationship with Krsna, which is the goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It is quite clear from your posts that your understanding of this aspect of our philosophy is not entirely in sync with the acaryas, and in some cases it is way off, as was pointed out. To rectify that, you might also benefit from reading my book: The Realization and Manifestation of Your Eternal Identity – Identity Transformation Through Raganuga-bhakti. Contact me on Facebook and I’ll send you a free copy.
PK “Then if you still have the conviction to give your erudite critique, so be it.”
US: Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? :-) That would be a bit ironic considering your emphasis on your qualifications as a doctor and scientist regarding your book’s authoritative status, in that Dandavat’s article. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to become very well versed in this philosophy, not as an academic endeavor, but as part of our deep devotional sadhana and bhajana, which is precisely the approach I took.
PK: “But you will need to see the Center of the target. Krishna is naturally the essence of all rasa, and His love and friendship, His mercy, may astound you.”
US: Why are you assuming that these attributes of Krsna don’t already astound me, or that I don’t see the center of the target?
PK: “One must be free from envy, nirmatsaram, as the worship of the inhabitants of Vraja and their moods of devotion, frees one from subtle delusion. After you have read it, perhaps your insight will expand.”
US: I hope you will also attain some expanded insight as well if you get a chance to read my book.
It seems that the misconception may be that as long as one is identified with matter,then one is not eligible. One must have at least preliminary identification with spirit in order to qualify one to enter spontaneous loving devotional service. One must be dhira.
“In the Skanda Purāṇa there is a statement about submission unto the lotus feet of the Lord. It is said there that those who are sober devotees can offer their submission to Kṛṣṇa in the following three ways: (1) samprārthanātmikā, very feelingly offering prayers; (2) dainya-vodhikā, humbly submitting oneself; (3) lālasā-mayī, desiring some perfectional stage. This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification. When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be reinstated in this position, either as friend, servant, parent or conjugal lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is called lālasā-mayī, or very eagerly desiring to go to one’s natural position. This lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation, which is technically called svarūpa-siddhi, when the living entity understands, by perfect spiritual advancement and revelation, his original relationship with the Lord.” (Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada – NOD 9)
That ‘sacred greed’ can only arise on the fertile ground of preliminary identification with spirit. (Brahma-bhuta prasanatmanam)
Not so easy. This saranagrati,accordingly.
ysvt.
http://gitabase.com/eng/NBS/56
(1
dekho mana, brate jena na hao acchanna
krsna-bhakti asa kori’acho nana brata dhori’,
radha-krsne korite prasanna
Be careful, my dear mind, that you don’t become bewildered by ritualistic vows. With an aim to please Radha-Krsna and make Them favorably disposed to you, you accept various types of austere vows. You consider that this will be conducive to practicing devotional service.
(2)
bhakti je sahaja tattva,citte ta’r ache sattva,
tahar samrddhi taba asa
dekhibe bicara kori’,su-katina brata dhori’,
sahajer na koro binasa
Devotional service is actually a very simple and easily understood truth, for it is the soul’s natural, inborn tendency. Your desire is to expand and enrich that devotion which is already existing in your heart. But you should be careful to consider that by undertaking unnecessarily difficult vows and austerities, you don’t destroy the simplicity of the natural bhakti process.
(3)
krsna-arthe kayaklesa,ta’r phal ache sesa
kintu taha samanya na hoy
bhaktir badhaka ho’le,bhakti ar nahi phale,
tapah-phal hoibe niscoy
The results that you get from hard labor on Krsna’s behalf are extraordinary and should never be considered to be commonplace. However, if such service turns into an unnecessarily difficult austerity, then it becomes an obstacle to devotion, and it will prevent you from getting the real benefit of devotion. Instead, you will only get the benefit of the results of the austerity.
(4)
kintu bheve dekho bhai,tapasyar kaj nai,
jadi hari aradhita hana
bhakti jadi na phalil,tapasyar tuccha phal,
baisnaba na loy kadacana
But just try to understand this, my dear brother. If one is worshiping Hari, then there is no need to labor for penances and austerities. If devotional service does not manifest as the result of some type of austerity, then the insignificant result of that austerity will never be accepted by a true Vaisnava at any time.
(5)
ihate je gudha marma,bhujo baisnaber dharma,
patra-bhede adhikara bhinna
binoder nibedana,bidhi-mukta anuksana,
sara-grahi sri-krsna-prapanna
From all this, just try to understand the deep inner significance of the principles of Vaisnava behavior. That is, according to differences in receptivity of different persons, there is a definite difference in their rightful capacity in devotional service. Bhaktivinoda’s humble submission is that you should just become a sara-grahi and accept the essence of complete surrender to Krsna, thus becoming freed from, and transcendental to, all types of scriptural rules and regulations.
Lecture on SB 1.7.13-14 — Vrndavana, September 12, 1976: Chaste woman, anyone who sticks to the regulative principles, he gets a power, spiritual or material. He gets power. A brahmacārī gets power if he follows brahmacarya. Everyone, if we follow the prescribed rules and regulations, automatically you become powerful.
So Gāndhārī had some power. So her eldest son, Duryodhana, was advised to see the mother naked. She advised, “My dear son, tomorrow morning when you come to offer your obeisances to me, you come naked. I shall see you and you will be solidified just like iron.” So he was going naked and Kṛṣṇa saw. So He asked him, “Where you are going?” “I am going to see my mother.” “How is that? You are going naked? At least you have some langota(?). This is not good.” So he took the instruction of Kṛṣṇa and covered the private part with a langota. And when Gāndhārī saw, she saw that he was not fully naked, so she regretted, “O my dear son, I asked you to come before me naked. Why you have got this…?” “No, Kṛṣṇa advised.” Then she began to smile, that “My attempt is failure.” So Kṛṣṇa knew it, that part which was covered, that was not turned iron. The other parts turned into iron on account of seeing by Gāndhārī. So in this fight Kṛṣṇa hinted Bhīma that “You strike here. That part is not ironized.” Although it is against the regulative principle to strike the opponent party below this waist, Kṛṣṇa advised that “Unless you transgress this law, you cannot kill him.” So he was stroken below the waist, and he was not killed, but his waist was broken. Therefore it is said vṛkodarāviddha-gadābhimarśa. Then he died. This is mentioned here.
So bhagnoru-daṇḍe. Bhagna uru. Uru-daṇḍa was broken. Bhagnoru-daṇḍe dhṛtarāṣṭra-putre. Dhṛtarāṣṭra-putra, Duryodhana was dhṛtarāṣṭra-putra. At that time, Drauṇi, his master was Duryodhana. A brāhmaṇa became a servant of kṣatriya, that is degradation. A brāhmaṇa cannot become servant. Nobody can become servant. Only the śūdras can become servant. Brāhmaṇa never becomes servant. They are instructed, satyaṁ śamo damas titikṣā ārjavaṁ jñānaṁ vijñānam āstikyaṁ brahma-karma svabhāva-jam (BG 18.42). This is brāhmaṇa’s qualification. They will train the brahmacārīs and the gṛhasthas how to become perfect, discipline. First discipline is truthfulness. A brāhmaṇa will never speak lies. That is the first qualification. So who is going to take training in that way? Nobody is interested. This is Kali-yuga. We are trying to train people “No illicit sex, no meat-eating, no gambling, no intoxication.” Still, there are some failures. And if we teach in our institution, “Please do not speak lies,” people will laugh: “What is this nonsense? Nowadays is it possible to remain in this society without speaking lies?” This is the position. This is called Kali-yuga. Nobody is interested to be trained up as a brāhmaṇa. Nobody is interested to be trained up as a kṣatriya, neither as a vaiśya. They are all śūdras. Therefore it is said, kalau śūdra-sambhavaḥ. There is no training. It is very very difficult to train them to become purified by training. These statuses of life were different status of training so that ultimately one can become brāhmaṇa, and when he’s fully trained up as a brāhmaṇa then he transcends the brāhmaṇa’s position, and he becomes a Vaiṣṇava.
So to become Vaiṣṇava is not so easy thing. One has to become brāhmaṇa, then when he surpasses the stages of becoming brāhmaṇa then he becomes a Vaiṣṇava. Śuddha-sattva. Sattvaṁ viśuddhaṁ vasudeva-śabditam. Then Kṛṣṇa is born. When one comes to the Vaiṣṇava stage, then he can understand what is Kṛṣṇa. Just like Kṛṣṇa was born of Vasudeva. Similarly, when one comes to the stage of Vasudeva… Vasudeva means perfect Vaiṣṇava. Do you think Kṛṣṇa accepts somebody as father, an ordinary man? No. He is perfect Vaiṣṇava. Kṛṣṇa accepts somebody as mother… Who is His mother, father? Nobody can be. He is the ādi-puruṣa. He’s original person. Who can become His father, mother? But He accepts, when He descends to exhibit His līlā… Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata tadātmānam (BG 4.7) (break) …janma karma ca me divyam (BG 4.9). Don’t take ordinarily: “Oh, Kṛṣṇa is born of a father, Vasudeva, and of a mother, Devakī. That’s all. We know He was born.” No. One has to learn who is His father, who is His mother, how He accepts His devotee as father. That is called yo jānāti tattvataḥ. This is tattvataḥ.
Nrsinghadeva dasa =That ‘sacred greed’ can only arise on the fertile ground of preliminary identification with spirit. (Brahma-bhuta prasanatmanam) Not so easy. This saranagrati,accordingly.=
We have to consider that lalasamayi in svarupa siddhi stage is very intense, but lalasamayi or laulyam begin well before in Sadhana stage. And this is what Prabhupada is explaining when he says that lalasamayi (intense) comes in the stage of svarupa siddhi.
Lobha or “sacred greed” is described in Sadhana stage. Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu 1.2.292.
Also in Raga Vartma Candrika VCT 1.8 this “sacred greed” has several levels. It increases as the devotee purifies:
“Upon the rise of pure greed, the sādhaka following rāgamārga must engage in the hearing and chanting of transcendental topics from the initial stage of his sādhana until he achieves his cherished desire of direct darśana of his worshipful Deity. By following this process, the innermost recesses of his heart gradually become purified, and he achieves the desired goal according to his degree of purification.”
And Prabhupada also confirms that this “sacred greed” should be cultivated even for a neophyte devotee.
“Hamsadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hamsadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.”
Here’s more ‘food for thought’ for Romapada Swami and Pusta Krsna prabhu (and all readers) regarding raganuga-bhakti’s primary importance and the necessity of realizing one’s relationship with Krsna ‘before’ one dies. From CC, Madhya-lila, Lord Caitanya’s teachings to Sanatana Gosvami:
CC Madhya 22.148 — “My dear Sanātana, I have now in detail described devotional service according to the regulative principles. Now hear from Me about spontaneous devotional service (raganuga-bhakti) and its characteristics.
CC Madhya 22.149 — “The original inhabitants of Vṛndāvana are attached to Kṛṣṇa spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called rāgātmikā bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vṛndāvana, his devotional service is called rāgānugā bhakti.
CC Madhya 22.150 — “ ‘When one becomes attached to the Supreme Personality of Godhead according to one’s natural inclination to love Him and is fully absorbed in thoughts of the Lord, that state is called transcendental attachment, and devotional service according to that attachment is called rāgātmikā, or spontaneous devotional service.’
CC Madhya 22.151 — “The primary characteristic of spontaneous love is deep attachment for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Absorption in thought of Him is a marginal characteristic.
CC Madhya 22.152 — “Thus devotional service which consists of rāga [deep attachment] is called rāgātmikā, spontaneous loving service. If a devotee covets (lobha/greed) such a position, he is considered to be most fortunate.
CC Madhya 22.153 — “If one follows in the footsteps of the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana out of such transcendental covetousness (lobha/greed), he does not care for the injunctions or reasonings of śāstra. That is the way of spontaneous love.
CC Madhya 22.154 — “ ‘Devotional service in spontaneous love is vividly expressed and manifested by the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana. Devotional service that accords with their devotional service is called rāgānugā bhakti, or devotional service following in the wake of spontaneous loving service.’
CC Madhya 22.155 — “ ‘When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vṛndāvana — in the mellows of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya — he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet (lobha/greed) that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness (lobha/greed) is awakened, one’s intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of śāstra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.’
CC Madhya 22.156-157 — “There are two processes by which one may execute this rāgānugā bhakti — external and internal. When self-realized, the advanced devotee externally remains like a neophyte and executes all the śāstric injunctions, especially those concerning hearing and chanting. But within his mind, in his original, purified, self-realized position (siddha-deha), he serves Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana in his particular way. He serves Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day, all day and night.
CC Madhya 22.158 — “ ‘The advanced devotee who is inclined to spontaneous loving service should follow the activities of a particular associate of Kṛṣṇa’s in Vṛndāvana. He should execute service externally as a regulative devotee as well as internally from his self-realized position (siddha-rupena). Thus he should perform devotional service both externally and internally.’
CC Madhya 22.159 — “Actually the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana are very dear to Kṛṣṇa. If one wants to engage in spontaneous loving service, he must follow the inhabitants of Vṛndāvana and constantly engage in devotional service within his mind.
CC Madhya 22.160 — “ ‘The devotee should always think of Kṛṣṇa within himself and should choose a very dear devotee who is a servitor of Kṛṣṇa in Vṛndāvana. One should constantly engage in topics about that servitor and his loving relationship with Kṛṣṇa, and one should live in Vṛndāvana. If one is physically unable to go to Vṛndāvana, he should mentally live there.’
CC Madhya 22.161 — “Kṛṣṇa has many types of devotees — some are servants, some are friends, some are parents, and some are conjugal lovers. Devotees who are situated in one of these attitudes of spontaneous love according to their choice are considered to be on the path of spontaneous loving service.
Here is another reference from Srila Prabhupada’s Teachings of Lord Caitanya, confirming the necessity to have realized your personal relationship with Krsna as an absolute pre-requisite to entering Krsna’s lila after death:
The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore to think oneself a direct associate of the Supreme Lord is condemned (ahangrahopasana). According to authorized Vaiṣṇava principles, one should follow a particular devotee and not think of himself as Kṛṣṇa’s associate.
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world.
One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
By adopting this emotional mood of following in the footsteps of the gopīs, one attains his siddha-deha. This word indicates the pure spiritual body, which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. The siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his perfectly pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination.
As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred to another material body. Similarly, one who at the time of death is situated in his pure spiritual identity thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord and is transferred to the spiritual kingdom, to enter into the association of Kṛṣṇa.
In other words, the qualification for being transferred to the spiritual kingdom at the time of death is to think, in one’s spiritual identity, of Kṛṣṇa and His associates. No one can contemplate the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha-deha).
Thus Rāmānanda Rāya said that without attaining one’s siddha-deha one can neither become an associate of the damsels of Vraja nor render service directly to the Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, and His eternal consort, Rādhārāṇī. In this regard, Rāmānanda quoted a nice verse from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.47.60):
“Neither the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmī, nor the damsels of the heavenly kingdom can attain the facilities of the damsels of Vrajabhūmi – and what to speak of others?”
It is important to note that eligibility only arises on the self-realised stage. Brahma-bhuta prasanatmanam.
CC Madhya 22.155 — “ ‘When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vṛndāvana — in the mellows of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya — he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet (lobha/greed) that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness (lobha/greed) is awakened, one’s intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of śāstra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.’
‘Lord Kṛṣṇa, however, has explained in the Gītā that out of these four types of neophytes, the one who is wise is very dear to Him, because a wise man, if he is attached to Kṛṣṇa, is not seeking an exchange of material benefits. A wise man who becomes attached to Kṛṣṇa does not want any return from Him, either in the form of relieving distress or in gaining money. This means that from the very beginning his basic principle of attachment to Kṛṣṇa is, more or less, love. Furthermore, due to his wisdom and study of śāstras (scriptures), he can understand also that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
It is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā that after many, many births, when one becomes actually wise, he surrenders unto Vāsudeva, knowing perfectly well that Kṛṣṇa (Vāsudeva) is the origin and cause of all causes. Therefore, he sticks to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa and gradually develops love for Him. Although such a wise man is very dear to Kṛṣṇa, the others are also accepted as very magnanimous, because even though they are distressed or in need of money, they have come to Kṛṣṇa for satisfaction. Thus they are accepted as liberal, broad-minded mahātmās.
Without being elevated to the position of a jñānī, or wise man, one cannot stick to the principle of worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The less intelligent or those whose intelligence has been taken away by the spell of māyā are attached to different demigods on account of the influence of the modes of nature. The wise man is he who has thoroughly understood that he is spirit soul and not simply a body. Because he realizes that he is spirit and Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit, he knows that his intimate relationship should be with Kṛṣṇa, not with this body. The distressed and the man in want of money are in the material concept of life, because distress and need of money are both in relationship with this body. One who is inquisitive may be a little above the distressed and the man in need of money, but still he is on the material platform. But a wise man who seeks Kṛṣṇa knows perfectly well that he is spirit soul, or Brahman, and that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme spirit soul, or Parabrahman. He knows that the spirit soul, being subordinate and finite, should always dovetail himself with the infinite and supreme soul, Kṛṣṇa. That is the relationship of the wise man with Kṛṣṇa.
It can be concluded that a person who is freed from the bodily concept of life is an eligible candidate for pure devotional service. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā that after Brahman realization, when one is freed from material anxieties and can see every living entity on an equal level, he is eligible to enter into devotional service.’
NOD Chp 3 p32.
Nrsinghadeva Dasa (ND): “It is important to note that eligibility only arises on the self-realised stage. Brahma-bhuta prasanatmanam.”
US: This is not the correct siddhanta. In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, First Wave, chapter 2 is titled, Sadhana-bhakti – bhakti in the stage of “practice”. In that chapter it is described that there are two types of sadhana-bhakti, ie: vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti. Nowhere in that chapter on sadhana-bhakti in does Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, or Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura say anything in their commentaries on this verse or any of the other verses, about first becoming liberated on the stage of brahma-bhuta in order to practice raganuga-bhakti.
The only qualification given in BRS regarding one’s eligibility for practicing raganuga-bhakti is that one has lobha/greed to follow the raga of a ragatmika Vraja-vasi, ie: an intense desire to develop a similar type of love/raga in that type of relationship. That is explained in BRS, 1.2.291:
The qualification for raganuga-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy for attaining a bhava similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in ragatmika-bhakti – is qualified for raganuga-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291
Visvanatha Cakravarti’s commentary:
Having described the characteristics of ragatmika-bhakti of the siddha-bhaktas, the author now describes the characteristics of raganuga-bhakti of the sadhakas (practitioners). He who is greedy to attain a bhava similar to that of the people of Vraja – who are fixed in ragatmika-bhakti – is qualified for raganuga-bhakti. (end of commentary)
So we see clearly here that “sadhakas”, ie: “practitioners” engage in raganuga-bhakti. Not those on the liberated stage of brahma-bhuta. A simple study of BRS with both commentaries would have easily prevented such a blatant misunderstanding as was stated by Nrsimhadeva dasa.
Chapter 3 of BRS is Bhava-bhakti and chapter 4 is Prema-bhakti. Both bhava-bhakti and prema-bhakti are on the transcendental platform, ie: brahma-bhuta. Bhava-bhakti is described in BRS as ‘sadhya’, ie: the goal of ‘sadhana’, and prema-bhakti is the ‘prayojana’, ie: the goal of life according to Lord Caitanya. This is the correct understanding as given by the acaryas.
ND: CC Madhya 22.155 — “ ‘When an advanced, realized devotee hears about the affairs of the devotees of Vṛndāvana — in the mellows of śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya — he becomes inclined in one of these ways, and his intelligence becomes attracted. Indeed, he begins to covet (lobha/greed) that particular type of devotion. When such covetousness (lobha/greed) is awakened, one’s intelligence no longer depends on the instructions of śāstra [revealed scripture] or on logic and argument.’”
US: In the purport to this verse in CC it states that this verse is from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.292, ie: the chapter on “sadhana-bhakti” and the verse directly after the one I quoted above. Here is Bhanu Swami’s translation of that verse from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu:
The appearance of that greed is indicated when the intelligence does not depend on rules of scripture and logic, after realizing to some degree the sweetness of their (the inhabitants of Vraja) love through the process of hearing from the scriptures. BRS, 1.2.292
Since this verse is from the chapter on bhakti in ‘practice/sadhana’ we can therefore understand by simple logic that when Srila Prabhupada says “advanced realized devotee” he is not referring to one on the fully liberated stage of brahma-bhuta. He is referring to a devotee who has realized or awakened their desired relationship with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, which is the actual qualification to begin practicing raganuga-bhakti, ie: greed for one of those types of relationship.
It make no sense whatsoever that one has to first become liberated (brahma-buta) in order to engage in practice (sadhana) to attain liberation again (bhava). That would be absurd and that is definitely ‘not’ what Srila Prabhupada meant. Raganuga-bhakti is the practice given by Lord Caitanya as a gift to His devotees specifically for attaining Vraja prema.
Prabhupāda: Īśāvāsyam idam—everything’s Kṛṣṇa’s. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā.Surrender means that. “Kṛṣṇa, I have surrendered to You. Now if You like You can protect me. If you like You can kill me. Whatever you like, do.” That’s all. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā nitya-dāsa prati tuwā adhikārā. “I am your eternal servant. You have got full right. Either you kill me or protect me, that is your business. But I surrender.” Bas.This is surrender. Mārobi rākhobi jo icchā tohārā. This is surrender. If you put me into inconvenience, then I’m not going to surrender. That is conditional. (laughs) Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says whatever you like you can do. That is CaitanyaMahāprabhu’s teaching. Āśliṣya vā pāda-ratāṁ pinaṣṭu mām marma-hatāṁ karotu vāadarśanān, yathā tathā vā vidadhātu [Cc. Antya 20.47]. Whatever you like you do. Yathātathā vā. Yathā tathā, whatever you like. It is up to you. I don’t object. Yathā tathā vāvidadhātu lampaṭo.
Akṣayānanda: If one is not a very strong devotee, should one have that same attitude of going…
Prabhupāda: That is wanted. Dṛḍha-vrata. That is perfection. Bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ.
Hari-śauri: No, he’s saying if you’re not very fixed up then should you still go out and preach. If you’re not very fixed up…
Prabhupāda: No, nobody is fixed. Nobody is perfect. But by rendering service he becomes perfect. The more you render service you become perfect. Not that in one day you become perfect.
Hari-śauri: Because I remember you also said that preaching is not for neophytes. You also said…
Prabhupāda: Neophyte means that kaniṣṭha-adhikārī. One worships the Deity very nicely but he does not like to do good to others. Neither he knows who is Vaiṣṇava. He’s neophyte. He is, in the arcanā, he’s fixed up, he’s doing very nicely. Arcāyām eva haraye.Yaḥ śraddhā…, pūjāṁ yaḥ śraddhayehate na tad-bhakteṣu. One does not understand who is bhakta. Na tad-bhakteṣu cānyeṣu. And how to do good to others. But he’s doing the Deity worship very nicely. Sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtaḥ smṛtaḥ. He’s prākṛta. But he can advance when his, by the grace of Kṛṣṇa, he understands “Here is a Vaiṣṇava. Here is an innocent man. He should be given some enlightenment.” That is preacher. When he’ll feel for others. Just like Prahlāda Mahārāja. Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. “I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to you.” Tato vimukha-cetasa. And that is Vaiṣṇava. Advanced devotee. For me I have no anxiety. Naivodvije para duratyaya-vai… There may be so many dangers. I don’t care for them. Naiva udvije. “I am not disturbed by all these things.” Udvije. Para duratyaya. Even it is very insurmountable, dangerous position, I don’t care. How? Tvad-vīrya-gāyana-mahāmṛta-magna-cittaḥ [SB 7.9.43].” Because when I think of You, chant of Your glories, I don’t care for that.” Then you appear to be morose? “Yes.” Why? Śoce tato vimukha-cetasa. “I am thinking of these rascals who are averse to You. How to do… They are engaged in false activities, māyā-sukhāya, for temporary happiness of the senses. So I am thinking like them. Therefore I am morose. For me I have no anxiety.” And actually, what Prahlāda Mahārāja… He was thrown to the fire, he was thrown from the hill and underneath the… He didn’t care. “Whatever you’ll do I’ll chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. So how he’ll be unhappy for himself? He has already passed all these examinations. His father! Not other. His own father. He’s helpless. He’s under father’s care, and the father is giving so much trouble. All right, if he likes, go on. Everyone expects affection from the father. He’s five years old boy. Where he will go? No, no, no, no. “I’ll take shelter of Kṛṣṇa and you can go on with your business. I don’t care for your punishment.”
Akṣayānanda: Such stage of Bhakti is very rare, Prabhupāda. To be on such a high platform is very rare. To be fearless.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Bhakti itself is rare. Bhakti is not cheap. Don’t think it is cheap commodity. There is a verse, I now forget. Kṛṣṇa can give you liberation, but He hesitates to give bhakti.
Harikeśa: Muktiṁ dadāti karhicit sma na bhakti-yogam.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Mukti, He is prepared, “All right, take mukti.” But when there isbhakti, He has to consider twice. Bhakti means he becomes in the grip of bhakta. Vedeṣudurlabham adurlabham ātma-bhaktau [Bs. 5.33].
Caraṇāravindam: Are we doing bhakti, Śrīla Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: That is viddhi-bhakti. And this is rāga-bhakti, spontaneous. Throughviddhi-bhakti you have to come to the stage of rāga-bhakti. Without viddhi-bhakti, you’ll not… Because you are conditioned. Those who are liberated, they immediately get rāga-bhakti. Not by imitation. That is another thing. Nitya-siddha. (Japa:) Hare Kṛṣṇa HareKṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare Hare Rāma..
US- “Since this verse is from the chapter on bhakti in ‘practice/sadhana’ we can therefore understand by simple logic that when Srila Prabhupada says “advanced realized devotee” he is not referring to one on the fully liberated stage of brahma-bhuta. He is referring to a devotee who has realized or awakened their desired relationship with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, which is the actual qualification to begin practicing raganuga-bhakti, ie: greed for one of those types of relationship.”
ND- Who is one who has realized or awakened their desired relationship with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya.
This refers to one who is awakened on the platform of pure devotional service, suddha-bhakti.
This is the stage where one stage where one has,at least,awakened preliminary self-realisation.
A realised soul who had freedom from false ego and has preliminary establishment of real ego,aham brahmastami. In practice.
This is the fertile ground for sacred greed to arise,on the platform of the soul proper.
Sacred greed does not arise on the platform of the false egoic material mind and intelligence. That is just psychological imitation on the sensual,mental platform of the prakriti-bhakta,kanistha.
Sentimental.
Prakriti sahadja.
Krishna Consciousness is based on pure understanding, not by any sentimental provocation.
Letter to: Rayarama — Los Angeles 19 November, 1968.
60206mw.may Conversations
Dayananda: Even the jnanis and yogis become…
Prabhupada: What is these jnanis? They are also another
rascal, another edition of rascals. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam
prapadyate. Therefore so-called jnanis, after many, many births’
practical realization, they surrender to Krsna. Vasudevah sarvam iti
sa mahatma. Then he understands that Krsna is everything. But such
great person is very, very rare. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah, very, very
rare.
Dayananda: But what about the persons who may be a little
bit devoted but who have not achieved that unalloyed devotion?
Prabhupada: Kanistha-adhikari. They are not devotees, but
they are called bhaktabhasa. There is some signs of bhakti. Actually
they are not bhakta. Bhaktabhasa. Abhasa. Abhasa means a simple, a
little light.
Hrdayananda: So devotee really means one who has love for
Krsna.
Prabhupada: Yes, unalloyed, without any condition.
Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero, all other, that “I am this, I am that, I
am jnani, I am yogi, I am karmi, I am minister, I am king”–all these
are thinking like that, they’re all nonsense. “I am servant of
Krsna”–that is greatness. Jivera svarupa haya nitya-krsna-dasa. That
is self-realization, atma-tattvam.
A person who has actually established his relationship with Krishna can no longer act on the material plane, and his personal character cannot be criticized.—Nectar of Devotion 40
The Vaishnavas are by far the greatest philosophers in the world, and the greatest among them was Srila Jiva Gosvami Prabhu, whose philosophy was again presented less than four hundred years later by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Maharaja. Therefore one must know very well that Vaishnava philosophers are not sentimentalists or cheap devotees like the sahajiyas. All the Vaishnava acharyas were vastly learned scholars who understood Vedanta philosophy fully, for unless one knows Vedanta he cannot be an acharya.—Cc Adi-lila 7.102
I’m there may be any lingering doubt;
Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Bilvamaṅgala Thākur’s giving up of the impersonal conception of the absolute truth and taking to devotional service are the best examples of devotees being situated in the neutral state. According to some authorities, this condition cannot be accepted as one of the transcendental humors, or rasas, but Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says that even if one does not accept it as a transcendental humor, one must still accept it as the beginning position of devotional service. However, if one is not further raised to the platform of actual service to the Lord, he is not considered to be on the platform of transcendental mellow. In this connection, in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Kṛṣṇa personally instructs Uddhava like this: “The state of being established in My personal form is called śānta-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service.” In other words, no one can be situated in the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without being situated at least in śānta-rasa.
Nector of Devotion.
Just in case, there may be any lingering doubt;
Śukadeva Gosvāmī and Bilvamaṅgala Thākur’s giving up of the impersonal conception of the absolute truth and taking to devotional service are the best examples of devotees being situated in the neutral state. According to some authorities, this condition cannot be accepted as one of the transcendental humors, or rasas, but Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says that even if one does not accept it as a transcendental humor, one must still accept it as the beginning position of devotional service. However, if one is not further raised to the platform of actual service to the Lord, he is not considered to be on the platform of transcendental mellow. In this connection, in the Eleventh Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Kṛṣṇa personally instructs Uddhava like this: “The state of being established in My personal form is called śānta-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service.” In other words, no one can be situated in the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without being situated at least in śānta-rasa.
Nector of Devotion.
http://vaniquotes.org/wiki/BG_18.54_brahma-bhutah_prasannatma…_cited_(Lec_Other)
General Lecture — (location & date unknown):
Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ: “In reality what I am, that can be understood by the devotees, not by others.” And in the beginning also, of the Bhagavad-gītā teaching, He said Arjuna that “I am teaching Bhagavad-gītā to you because you are devotee.”
Bhakto ‘si priyo ‘si: (BG 4.3) “You are My very dear friend and devotee. Therefore,” rahasyam hy etad uttamam, “I am delivering this mystery of Bhagavad-gītā-yoga to you.” So to understand Bhagavad-gītā requires that qualification: bhakto ‘si. And similarly, on the Eighteenth Chapter, the Kṛṣṇa directly says,
bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati (BG 18.54).
The brahma-bhūtaḥ stage is liberated stage from material contamination. But you have to develop further. In the liberated stage, if you shall be satisfied simply being brahma-bhūtaḥ, self-realized, understanding yourself as Brahman, that is not sufficient. You have to make further progress.
Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (BG 18.54).
When one has acquired these qualities, that he is no more, I mean to say, faltering in the matter of hankering and lamentation, and he is now on the transcendental stage of seeing every living entity on the equal level—samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu—at that stage one can enter into the devotional service.
Mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām (BG 18.54).
So bhakti is above the liberated stage of life. And bhakti, when, if one is fortunate enough to come to that stage, above the liberated stage, then bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55), then through that para bhakti, pure devotional service, one can understand Kṛṣṇa in reality, tattvataḥ.
And in another place He said, manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye: (BG 7.3) “Out of many millions of persons, somebody is interested for self-realization.” Kaścid yatati siddhaye. Siddhi. Siddhi. Siddhi-labha means perfection of human form of life. So nobody is interested. But there are some who are interested how to make this human form of life perfect.
So, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (BG 18.54). Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye, yatatām api siddhāṇām: (BG 7.3) “Out of many persons who are actually engaged in the matter of that perfection of life,” kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ, “somebody may know in reality what I am,” because that reality can be understood by the devotee.
Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti (BG 18.55). He has not mentioned anything like jñānī or yogi or karmī. No. He has simply mentioned one thing, bhaktyā. And that is the process.
The path of raganuga-bhakti is in fact the process leading to one’s siddha-deha, either as a braja gopi (kamanuga ) or as a devotee in sakhya, vatsalya, or dasya rasa (sambandhanuga ). Contemplation of one’s siddha-deha, however, requires realization. It is not within the capacity of the conditioned mind. Unless the necessary adhikara is achieved, attempting to contemplate one’s siddha-deha will only cause confusion. This is confirmed in Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Bhajana-rahasya as follows:
adhikara na labhiya siddhadeha bhave
viparyaya buddhi janme saktira abhave
“If one thinks of their siddha-deha without achieving the adhikara (necessary realization), their intelligence gets bewildered.”
AMEN……….Pusta Krishna das
Do not underestimate the devotional Personality of the Lord, Sri Radha, who can easily engage any soul for the purpose of pleasing Sri Krishna. She is the devotional counterpart of Sri Krishna. All Glories to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
Apparently,not even Srimate Radharani can surrender for us. Srila Prabhupada stated that the Acharya cannot surrender for the jiva. Individual free-will is always there,accordingly.
If the jiva wants to hold into that which is most dear to him namely his subtle ego then he has the whole of eternity to do so.
“Out of thousands who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows me in truth.”
No short cuts,apparently;
Chapter 7: Knowledge of the Absolute
TEXT 3
manusyanam sahasresu
kascid yatati siddhaye
yatatam api siddhanam
kascin mam vetti tattvatah
SYNONYMS
manuṣyāṇām—of men; sahasreṣu—out of many thousands; kaścit—someone; yatati—endeavors; siddhaye—for perfection; yatatām—of those so endeavoring; api—indeed; siddhānām—of those who have achieved perfection; kaścit—someone; mām—Me; vetti—does know; tattvataḥ—in fact.
TRANSLATION
Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.
Free will is minute, and as a lover surrenders to one’s beloved, so the jiva soul surrender’s to Krishna experiencing that I am Krishna’s and Krishna is mine. Srimati Radharani, either seen or unseen, is the vortex and super-charger of love for Krishna. I can only appeal to you, please read Chapter 6 of my book, God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker” by Paul H. Dossick, MD. Uttamasloka above discounted this as just another devotee who has seen Krishna. Actually, it is Krishna Who comes to see you. He is the ultimate Well-wisher, Ocean of Mercy, destination of bhakta. Please abandon all envy and explore a little. The many statements in this thread seen to be contrived, i.e., if one “desires” then Krishna must reward one accordingly. It seems that impatience with the process of devotional service can lead one to contrive raga-bhakti as a self-willed alternative. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur took Raga-bhakti upon his head. He worshipped it as his ideal. But, one cannot achieve this simply by “willing it”. It is by the mercy of Krishna and Krishna’s internal potency that love of Krishna might fill our hearts into self-forgetfulness. The proposition that is being promoted is self-preoccupation.
It is Krishna consciousness, not self-consciousness, that is our final place. In that state of divine love and ecstasy, brought about by Krishna and His internal potency, rasa occurs. Our senses are part of Krishna’s senses (hrishikesa hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate). This is the very basis of our existence.
As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur did, take Raganuga bhakti upon your head, and She may bless you with a taste of divine exchange of love with Krishna, by mercy. It is not a business deal but rather merciful glance of Krishna upon us. Free will goes out the door in the spiritual world where Krishna is like an unlimited magnet and the jiva souls are like iron filings (7th Ch of Srimad Bhagavatam)…all attractive Krishna. Submitted at your feet prabhu….Pusta Krishna das