Gauragopala Dasa: To say we DID NOT come from Vaikuntha is to say we came from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea.
He has explained that this condition in the impersonal Brahmajyoti is already a fallen state, Srila Prabhupada further explains that originally we ALL have come down from Vaikuntha to the material creation many millions of years ago. And then, out of frustration of trying to enjoy this temporary material existence, some of us have devolved even further to eventually fall into deeper illusion, with great difficulty, to that dormant motionless inactive conscious state known collectively as the impersonal Brahmajyoti (collectively because of all the billions of baddha-jivas vibrating dormantly there).
It is these souls (baddha-jivas) who foolishly think this impersonal Brahmajyoti to be our origin having forgotten their real perpetual nitya-siddha body that exists outside the limited realms of the material creation (mahat-tattva) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti or effulgence. And it must be stressed that, like the material creation, the impersonal Brahmajyoti is also a temporary condition of the numerous baddha-jivas who strive to take shelter within the impersonal Brahmajyoti.
Srila Prabhupada – “There are two kinds of marginal living entities: nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. The actual constitutional position of every marginal living entity is nitya-siddha. By following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become again nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas AGAIN nitya-siddha” New York lecture on Caitanya-Caritamrta, July 13, 1976
Srila Prabhupada â âEternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). But because we wanted to imitate Krishna, we wanted to become Krishna, as the Mayavadis want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Krishna is the only enjoyer. (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada â âRegarding your questions concerning the spirit soulâs falling into Mayaâs influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . .” Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70
Srila Prabhupada – âA living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly.” Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15
Srila Prabhupada – âWe have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada explains we have marginal independence as part of our nature. We can misuse such independence with out any material cause, it simply happens because it is there in our own fundamental spiritual nature as independent (marginal) living beings. That choice is always there even in Goloka and must be there if genuine love is to exist. It is not that we first have to be contacted by the modes of material nature to fall down from Goloka or Vaikuntha. Itâs all to do with a combination of choice and the sheer smallness of the marginal living entity. An even then due to that smallness and choice, we only âthink, imagine or dreamâ we are fallen that we become fallen.
The following quotes overwhelmingly reveal that Srila Prabhupada has said we have come down from Vaikuntha however, most never again choose to make that foolish mistake, although on the other hand there is always the chance, due to free-will and the God (Krishna) given ability to choose, we can fall down and without that choice there can be no selfless love.
Srila Prabhupada – “After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world . . . There is possibility . . . even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world.” Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on July 4, 1974
Many do not understand the true facts of how we actually did come down from Goloka. And it’s got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka, as some foolishly believe. Their presentation of the âsleeping on a bed in Golokaâ philosophy and how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!! The understanding of the word dream in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka has nothing to do with sleeping anywhere; itâs all to do with time.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu.
The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka or Vaikuntha simply caused by their non-Krishna conscious mistaken desires.
Such selfish desires place the marginal living entity outside of Goloka as their nitya-baddha lower self that enters the mahat-tattva (material creation).
Now it is important to understand that while they are in the mahat-tattva, no time passes in Goloka-Vrndavana because of the ‘eternal presence’ of Krsna Consciousness there.
In other words when the marginal living entity re-establishes again the memory of their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious bodily identity in Goloka, it will appear as if NO time has passed whatsoever when once again the marginal living entity is in the shelter AS their nitya-siddha body within the âeternal presenceâ of Goloka-Vrndavana.
Dr. John Mize â âThe question that bothers me in part is then why would the soul… Because I understand your conception that the soul is part of the spiritual sky originally or part of God, and it somehow falls out of this blissful condition due to pride, much like the Christian thesis that the devil fell out of heaven due to pride. And it seems puzzling why the soul would be so silly, so foolish, so insane, as to do such a thingâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is his independenceâ.
Dr. John Mize â âIndependenceâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âInstead of using independence properly, when he misuses independence he fallsâ.
Dr. John Mize â âIâm sorry, he what?â
Srila Prabhupada â âHe falls downâ.
Dr. John Mize â âHe fallsâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âHe falls down on account of his independence. Just like you have got independence. You are sitting here. You can go immediately. You may not like to hear meâ.
Dr. John Mize â âI wouldnât what?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYou may not like to hear meâ.
Dr. John Mize â âYesâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat independence you have got. I have got also. I may not talk with you. So that independence is always there. Similarly, as part and parcel of God, the, it is the duty of the soul to be always engaged in the service of the Lordâ.
Dr. John Mize â âAlways engaged in…?â
Srila Prabhupada â âIn the service of the Lordâ.
Dr. John Mize â âService of the Lordâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âJust like this finger is part and parcel of my body. Whatever I am ordering, it is immediately carrying out. I say, âMake it like this.â He will, it will do. So… But this is dead matter. It is acting mechanically. The brain directs immediately the finger and it acts, like machine. This whole body is just like a machine, but soul is not machine mechanical part. It is spiritual part.
So therefore, as I am directing the finger, as being machine, it is working, but if somebody else, a friend or servant, I may direct him to do something, he may not do it. So when the soul misuses the independence, then he falls down. That is material life.
Material life means misusing the independence of soul. Just like a son. A sonâs duty is to obey the father. But he may not obey. That is his madness. So when the soul, misusing the independence, becomes mad, he is sent in this material worldâ.
Dr. John Mize â âIt is puzzling to me that one would be so foolishâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause by independence you can become foolish. Otherwise, there is no meaning of independence. Independence means you can do whatever you like. That is stated in the Bhagavad-Gita, that yathecchasi tathĂ€ kuru. Find out this verse in the Eighteenth Chapter.
That independence is there. After instructing the whole Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, Krishna gave him the independence, âNow whatever you like, you can do.â Krishna never forced him to accept the teachings of Bhagavad-Gita. He gave him the independence, âNow whatever you like, you can do.â And he agreed. âYes. Now my illusion is over, I shall act as You say.â The same independence. Yesâ.
Dr. John Mize â âDid all the souls that were in the spiritual sky fall out of the spiritual sky at once or at different times, or are there any souls that are always good, theyâre not foolish, they donât fall down?â
Srila Prabhupada â âNo, there are… Majority, 90%, they are always good. They never fall downâ.
Dr. John Mize â âSo weâre among the 10%.
Srila Prabhupada â âYes. Or less than that. In the material, whole material world all the living entities they are… Just like in the prison house, there is some population, but they are not majority. The majority of the population, they are outside the prison house. Similarly, majority of living being, part and parcel of God, they are in the spiritual world. Only a few fall downâ.
Dr. John Mize â âDoes Krishna know ahead of time that a soul is going to be foolish and fall?â
Srila Prabhupada â âKrishna? Yes, Krishna may know because He is omniscientâ.
Dr. John Mize â âAre more souls falling all the time?â
Srila Prabhupada â âNot all the time. But there is the tendency of fall down, not for all, but because there is independence… Everyone is not liking to misuse the independence. The same example: Just like a government constructing a city and constructs also prison house because the government knows that somebody will be criminal. So their shelter must be also constructed. It is very easy to understand. Not that cent percent population will be criminal, but government knows that some of them will be. Otherwise why they construct prison house also? One may say, âWhere is the criminal? You are constructing…â Government knows, there will be criminal. So if the ordinary government can know, why God cannot know? Because there is tendencyâ.
Dr. John Mize â âThe origin of that tendency (to fall from Goloka) is…?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ.
Dr. John Mize â âFrom where does that tendency come?â
Srila Prabhupada â âTendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathĂ€ kuru. âNow you do whatever you like.â (Bhagavad Gita as it is. lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada â âFormerly we were with Krsna in His lilaâ Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)
Srila Prabhupada – “Actually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Prabhupada – âOriginally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha Krsna Bhakti âsadhyaâ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4â Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Devotee â âWell, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, thereâs no possibility of falling backâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âNo! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, “Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,” Iâll never become, because I have got my bad experience. Iâll never become. . . .â
Bhaktijana â âHas my soul ever been liberated?â
Srila Prabhupada â âThat you know. I do not knowâ.
Bhaktijana â âIf I was once liberated…â
Srila Prabhupada â âYou are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called mayaâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âActually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tigerâ. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
It is important to understand that ALL marginal living entities âoriginallyâ come from Goloka-Vrndavana and are ALWAYS in a perpetual state of uniquenessâ meaning we are forever fresh and youthful in our nitya-siddha body. Such a spiritual body is âeternallyâ endowed with a two-armed form like Krishnaâs.
What makes things confusing to several is that some marginal living entities, who have manifested as their inferior secondary baddha-jiva state in the material creation, can stay in the material creation or mahat-tattva for what seems to be an almost eternity! This means many baddha-jiva souls enter the Body of Maha-Vishnu or the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti at the dissolution of each mahat-tattva creation because of not being Krishna Conscious to awaken to their true nitya-siddha body in Goloka.
In other words, this entrance into the dormant impersonal Brahmajyoti condition only happens if they are not qualified to again remember their âfull potential awarenessâ of being a nitya-siddha perpetual Krishna Conscious body in Goloka. In this way, the baddha-jiva sub-conscious state starts off as a non-Krishna conscious selfishly active dream (or thought) condition originating from the marginal living entity in Goloka.
Therefore it is only the secondary or inferior baddha-jiva that is a formless state of consciousness that is sometimes referred to as particles of spirit, spiritual atoms, sparks or molecules (All referring to the baddha-jiva and NOT the nitya-siddha body due to always being a Krishna Conscious bodily form).
This baddha-jiva condition can only experience selfish desires through material bodily vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu from within His mahat-tattva creation that clothes the secondary baddha-jiva state with subtle (ethereal) and gross (biological) material containers or bodily vessels of the mahat-tattva.
There are others also that a resemble fire and extreme cold. Sarva gatah – life is everywhere in the mahat-tattva and most, over 75%, we cannot see with our biological eyes and our scientific technological extensions like the Electron Microscope and the Humble Telescope.
Hare Krishna, your fallen servant Gauragopala Dasa
On many occasions Srila Prabhupada further elaborates on his wonderful purports in the association of his close disciples. I remember in Sydney he called devotees in to his room and preached to midnight, being the guard at the door, I heard these wonderful conversations. The main point to understand is that there is no difference between Prabhupada’s books, lectures, morning walks and personal instructions, in fact why would there be?
Some have said that “Vaikuntha” means the spiritual sky, NOT necessarily “Vaikuntha-Loka.”
Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” – (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970
Srila Prabhupada further explains this clearly –
Srila Prabhupada â “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotee in Australia (To Madhudvisa Swami)
Actually our perpetual origins are directly from Krishnaâs pastimes in Goloka because originally EVERY JIVA SOUL is a selfless nitya-siddha devotee of Krishna within His pastimes.
Many also quote Sb 3.16.26 â âThe conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abodeâ.
And yes that is correct because the marginal living entity only ‘thinks’ imagines’ or ‘dream’ they fall down and in actual fact their nitya-siddha body never leaves Goloka as Srila Prabhupada explains –
Srila Prabhupada â âWe are always with Krsna but we are now in a situation where âwe thinkâ we have fallenâ April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan
And this –
Srila Prabhupada – âAs soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the âseenâ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. Actually he has not fallenâ. http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
And this – Srila Prabhupada â “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this Maya. This is called Maya”.
And this – Srila Prabhupada â “Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger”. (Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972)
And this -Srila Prabhupada – âSo to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material bodyâ. Germany, June 22, 1974
And this – When the marginal living entity first chooses to pursue their own self-centred desires and thus forgets his relationship with Krishna, he is immediately overwhelmed by the influence of Maya, in other words, one first chooses to ignore Krishna that simultaneously puts them in the realm of Maya or within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu
Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krsna in the spiritual world (As nitya-siddha). But when we want to take Krsnaâs position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state (As nitya-baddha) that can only exist in the mahat-tattva material creation, the impersonal Brahmajyoti, or the Body of Maha-Vishnu. We can only enter the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu after entering the mahat-tattva as nitya-baddha, to do so means we have not remebered our original Krsna Conscious body
In this dreaming state we forget our actual position as nitya-siddha and are thus free to act out our desire to become the supreme enjoyer in the mahat-tattva. This state of forgetfulness and dreaming is characterized as being âfallenâ from our position in the spiritual world. But Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming state known as nitya-baddha. Srila Prabhupada says that this is a very important point and asks the devotees to carefully consider it.
This concept that we are not really fallen offers an explanation for the statements that âno one falls from Vaikuntha.â We do not fall. We simply forget our original relationship of service to Krsna. Some might argue that we have eternally forgotten Krsna. But that is not supported by Srila Prabhupada
Paramahamsa â âBut ultimately if we come to Krsna, thereâs no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and the two gatekeepers, they returned?â
Srila Prabhupada â âThere is return, that is voluntary. Return there isâ.
Paramahamsa â âIf we wantâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ.
Paramahamsa â âSo we can come to the spiritual world and return?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ.
Paramahamsa â âFall down?â
Srila Prabhupada – “Yes. As soon as we try, “Oh, this material world is very nice,” “Yes,” Krsna says, “yes, you go.” Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousnessâ.
Srila Prabhupada – “Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?â Srila Prabhupada – “Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, “All right, you enjoy like this.” Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotypedâ.
Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, “Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here.” He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like thatâ
Srila Prabhupada – “The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. Thatâs all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore.”
Paramahamsa â âSo our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.â
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course–May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)
So this means we always have a choice and some, less than 10%, choose to leave Krishna and by doing that, they forget their ârasaâ relationship with Krishna, they forget who they really are, their nitya-siddha Krsna Conscious body.
Devotee â âWhen we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krsna, we have a perfect relationship with Krsna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because we re already serving Krsna?
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that “Don’t fall down.” And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall down.
Devotee â âI can’t understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already serving…
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire”Melbourne, June 25, 1974
Devotee â âYou commented that, Swami Prabhupada, that everyone has a natural desire to have relationship with Krsna, but that because…
Srila Prabhupada â âNot desire, but he is already establishedâ.
Devotee â â Established.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is covered. Just like your relationship with somebody as father and son, it is established. You might have forgot, you might have left your home since a very, very long time, and you do not know who is your father, but there is some father. That is a fact. Nobody can say, “No. I, I have, I am born without father.” Nobody can say. One has father, but it may be that he has forgotten his father.
So this Krsna consciousness movement is that we have got some relationship with the Supreme Lord. That we have now forgotten. So it is not the question of desire. It is there. You don’t desire to become one’s son, you are already one’s son.
You simply do not know. Similarly, your relationship with Krsna is there, every one of us, but I have forgotten; I do not know. This Krsna consciousness practice will revive your relationship in what way…, in which way you are related with Krsna. It is not that you have to desire.
No. It is already there. You have to desire only how to revive it, that’s all. That is Krsna consciousness. It is not an artificial thing. Just like we are establishing some relationship with somebody or you are my father or you are my wife, you are my husband. No. It is already there. Simply we have to find out.
That will be revealed when you are perfect in Krsna consciousness, brahma-bhutah prasannatma na socati, you are freed from all material contamination, and you are perfectly situated in devotional service; it will be at once revealed: “Oh, you are related to Krsna. You will have to wait for that”. Bhagavad-gita Los Angeles, November 23,
Several have assumed that “falling down from Vaikuntha” means the impersonal Brahmajyoti characteristic of the spiritual sky and not “Vaikuntha-Loka.” however Srila Prabhupada rejects that claim in his teachings and explains clearly we have foolishly come from Krishnaâs Pastimes – (Lecture August 6, 1973) â Srila Prabhupada – “We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.” Srila Prabhupada clearly teaches us – These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities”. Letter to Jagadisa das, 1970, which all mean, “Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila” (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)
Srila Prabhupada â “This is factual evidence showing that it is possible at any time to fall down from the Lord’s association . . . Once fallen and separated from the Supreme Personality of Godhead’s association, one becomes a candidate for suffering in the material world.” (Caitanya-Caritamrta Madhya-lila 10.65, purport)
Srila Prabhupada – “So to go to Krishna means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material body”. (Germany, June 22, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada – “As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere.” (Original Hare Krsna album)
Srila Prabhupada â “Tendency means the independence. So everyone can know that independence means one can use it properly, one can misuse it. That is independence. If you make it one way only, that you cannot become fall down, that is not independence. That is force. Therefore Krishna says, yathecchasi tathĂ€ kuru. “Now you do whatever you like.” (Los Angeles, June 23, 1975)
The people who claim we have originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti or a âclear sheet of consciousness’ sometimes alleges that those confronted with the choice of Krishna or the mahat-tattva are conditioned souls and cannot be engaged in the Lord’s personal association. They further assert that those who have attained the personal association of the Lord never misuse their free will. However, for there to be genuine love or service, there must be free-will other wise we are simply mindless porns in a collective.
What is possible in the Goloka as ones perpetual selfless Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body is endless and full of marvel, revelation and keenness and way beyond the ordinary relativity of the conditioned side of the marginal living entities (nitya-baddha). The events and dealings within the Goloka are truly within the unique nature of the absolute devotion known as the âeternal presence of Krsna’s loving pastimes’.
Some have clearly misunderstood the marginal living entities and wrongly believe they are not tatastha-s’akti also in Goloka and Vaikuntha and that there is a third kind of living entity that is above the concept of marginal. The fact is there are only two types of living entities, Vishnu-tattva and jiva-tattva (marginal or tatastha-s’akti) as Srila Prabhupada explains
Srila Prabhupada â “In the Padma Purana, wherein it is said that there are two kinds of spiritual entities; one is called the jiva, and the other is called the Supreme Lord”. (Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”)
When we talk of fall down from Goloka, it will always be a sensitive subject because some will always believe once in the Goloka pastimes of Lord Krishna, one never falls down and the fact is, in most cases they don’t.
Actually there are some living entities who NEVER fall down from their position in Vaikuntha and Goloka or even if they enter the mahat-tattva because they are not marginal like us; these billions upon billions of Living Entities are not like us (jiva-tattva [tatastha-s’akti] or marginal living entities) they are all Vishnu Tattva. They are everywhere in Goloka and Vaikuntha, some as Gopis, Cow heard boys, Village elders or residents etc and some come disguised in various bodily forms to the material worlds.
The Caitanya Caritamrita explains this further, so many of Lord Caitanya’s associates are all Vishnu-tattva. There are Vishnu-tattvas who have manifested many of their unique personalities at the same time during Lord Caitanya’s lila on this planet but only our purity or the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and His humble selfless devotees can begin to understand and appreciate such transcendental mysterious.
Srila Prabhupada – âBrahmasayujya and Krsna lilaâboth may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Mayaâs clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godheadâ Letter to Madhudvisa Swami in Australia 1972.
What does Srila Prabhupada mean by his following comment? -âBrahmasayujya and Krsna lila both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mysteryâ.
From other comments from Srila Prabhupada, we can understand that the above comment ONLY refers to where we have previously come from, was it from Krishna-lila or from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya)?
What is meant here is the Brahmasayujya dormant condition of the baddha-jiva consciousness was attained either in this mahat-tattva (material creation) or from a previous one after much austerity to become totally inactively and free from gross and subtle material bodies and therefore attaining a dreamless dream state as part of the collective impersonal Brahmajyoti.
This is what the impersonal Brahmajyoti is, a collective of individual baddha-jiva souls vibrating inactively who have the appearance of living bright effulgence light particles or rays. Also if one still has material desires at the dissolution of the material creation, then they are temporary placed within the Body of Maha-Vishnu in a dormant state until placed again into a new maha-tattva from the glance of Maha-Vishnu as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam
Because this condition of merging into the impersonal Brahmajyoti or the Body of Maha-Vishnu is temporary, the baddha-jiva will eventually AGAIN fall and begin their material embodied existence? This what Srila Prabhupada is referring to when he says, âBrahmasayujya may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mysteryâ.
Srila Prabhupada is NOT saying that we can âoriginateâ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti as some claim, he is not saying that at all, he is only referring to our present status which means that in some previous birth in the material creation, we may have fallen out of the impersonal Brahmajyoti dormant consciousness (Brahmasayujya), that was previously attained from the material creation after great difficult austerity to suppress material desires (usually the impersonalist yogis).
Or we may have never been to the impersonal Brahmajyoti because we had previously, some millions of yearâs ago, come down directly from Goloka as nitya-baddha.
As far as our âoriginâ is concerned, Srila Prabhupada has previously answered that very clearly. Srila Prabhupada – âWe have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago.â Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973
He rejected the idea we âoriginatedâ from the impersonal Brahmajyoti (Brahmasayujya) and even the Body of Maha-Vishnu who plants the fallen âbaddha-jivasâ (the lower secondary state of the marginal living entity) into His mahat-tattva creation.
Srila Prabhupada â âBrahmasayujya (impersonal Brahmajyoti) is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material blissâ
Darkness cannot be left over in the presents of light because light dissipates all darkness. In other words while there is light (nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body), darkness (nitya-baddha condition) does not exist.
This means that when oneâs âawarenessâ is AGAIN situated as the eternal presents of their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, the nitya-baddha sub-conscious darkness in the material creation no longer exists.
Srila Prabhupada – âAs soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.
In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the âseenâ disappears. But the seer remains.
Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things.
http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Several do not appreciate the accurate details of how we actually did come down from Goloka due to miss using our free will. We certainly did not come down as our nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body to chase our material desires.
The truth is we are perpetually in Krishnaâs pastimes as nitya-siddha right now, within that eternal presence of selfless blissful devotion where nothing factual can perish however, because selfish desires are not a factual reality and not part of the make-up of Goloka or Vaikuntha, they are projected as a spin off reality to mahat-tattva (material creation) that is under the jurisdiction of Maha-Vishnu.
Such self-absorbed mundane self centred thoughts and coveted dreams convince us we are not there with Krishna (as we desired) even though we are ALWAYS with Krishna. In this way, such egocentric dreams and thoughts, like a veil, block out our connection to Krishna by moving us âsub-consciouslyâ to the separated mahat-tattva reality of Maha-Vishnu where we become bogged down in ignorance due to being covered by various subtle and gross material bodies.
We therefore experience this secondary nature (nitya-baddha) to our marginal nitya-siddha identity simply because we choose to do so that places us outside of Goloka and within the material creation.
Even though material realities (the mahat-tattva) are real, there temporary nature makes them an illusion in the face of the perpetual presence of Goloka. And it’s also got nothing to do with sleeping on a bed in Goloka and imaging we are in the material world as some foolishly and disdainfully believe. No, itâs not that type of dreaming at all. Their fabrication of the âsleeping on a bed in Goloka’ philosophy of how the jiva falls from Goloka is absolute nonsense!!
The understanding of the word âdreamâ in regards to the marginal living entity falling from Goloka is significant in Srila Prabhupadaâs preaching yet has nothing to do with âsleepingâ anywhere; it’s all to do with time. because we donât really fall, we only think we do as Srila Prabhupada has taught us.
The proper understanding is this. It’s all to do with the ‘eternal presence’ of the imperishable Vaikuntha’s and Goloka compared to the ‘past, present and future’ of the perishable material creation of Maha-Vishnu. The marginal living entity, due to free will and choice, falls out of synch with the ‘eternal presence’ of Goloka simply caused by their non-Krsna Consciousness
Lord Krishna states that the constitutional nature of all marginal living beings is that they are eternal servants of the Lord. So to say that âconditionedâ souls have never been âunconditionedâ in Goloka-Vrndavana is incorrect.
Srila Prabhupada â ââOf course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa.
By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi-perfection of oneâs constitutional position. We have an intimate relationship with the Lord, and because we are all qualitatively one the whole purpose of Bhagavad-gita is to revive our sanatana occupation, or sanatana dharma, which is the eternal occupation of the living entity.
The Lord descends to reclaim all of these fallen, conditioned souls to call them back to the sanatana eternal sky so that the sanatana living entities may regain their eternal sanatana positions of eternal association with the Lord.â Bhagavad-gita, Introduction.
As in our case in the material world, we are presently âeternally conditionedâ (nitya-baddha) because long, long, long, long ago we made that choice to forget Krishna and simultaneously the âawarenessâ of our nitya-siddha (eternally liberated) body we serve Krishna as.
When again we achieve deliverance from this material world due to the mercy of pure devotees, we will enter Goloka AGAIN by the method of becoming âawareâ of our genuine nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body or in simple terms, we begin to make a distinction of who we really our that separates us from the material dream condition (nitya-baddha fallen consciousness).
Alan Ginsberg â âHow did the material covering begin?â
Srila Prabhupada â âBegin?â
Alan Ginsberg â âAs the material shadow. How did we fall into that?
Srila Prabhupada â âYes. Yes. That is very natural. . . Because jiva, although para-sakti, he has got independence. So when he wants to imitate Krishnaâ.
Alan Ginsberg â â⊠How did we fall into that?â
Srila Prabhupada â âIn the spiritual world, Krishna is the enjoyer. And all others, they are enjoyed–predominator and the predominating. The Lord is the predominating, so there is no disagreement. There they know, âThe Lord is predominator; we have to serve.â When this service attitude is impaired, that–âWhy serve Krishna? Why not ourself?â–that is Mayaâ. – Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg in Columbus, OH 5-14-69
Srila Prabhupada – âAs soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the âseenâ disappears. But the seer remains.â http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Srila Prabhupada has stated wether we fell from Vaikuntha or Brahman is not important
we are in a house of fire, samsara of the material world ,chant Hare Krishna and get out and go back to Godhead, personally this subject is a waste of time in my humble opinion.You are in a house of fire and worried where it started and when, is Srila Prabhupadas explanation.Also he added wether the crow lands first and then the fruit falls or wether the crow was there and then the fruit fell, Kaka -tala argument, now we are not in Brahman or in Vaikuntha so lets just chant Hare Krishna and go back home back to Godhead where everyone is serving Krsna free from this kind of arguments and refutations
As Srila Prabhupada says in the Srimad Bhagavatam 5.14 Summary – “When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krishna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. As stated in the Prema-vivarta: krishna-bahirmukha haĂ±Ä bhoga vÄñchÄ kare. This is the reason the pure spirit soul falls down to the material world.
Due to his activities under the influence of the three modes of material nature, the living entity takes different positions in different species. Sometimes he is a demigod in the heavenly planets and sometimes a most insignificant creature in the lower planetary systems.
In this regard, ĆrÄ«la Narottama dÄsa ThÄkura says, nÄnÄ yoni sadÄ phire: the living entity passes through various species. Kardarya bhakshana kare: he is obliged to eat and enjoy abominable things. TÄra janma adhah-pÄte yÄya: in this way his whole life is spoiled.
Without the protection of an all-merciful Vaishnava the conditioned soul cannot get out of the clutches of Maya” Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: ĆrÄ«mad BhÄgavatam 5.14 Summary
Devotee â âWhen we are in the spiritual sky and serving Krishna, we have a perfect relationship with Krishna, what causes us to fall down in the material world, because weâre already serving Krishna?â
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause you desire to fall down. Here it is explained that âDonât fall down.â And as soon as you associate with the material nature, then you fall downâ.
Devotee â âSrila Prabhupada, I canât understand why we should have an impure desire when we are already servingâŠâ
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause you have got little freedom. Why one is not coming here and going to the liquor shop? It is his desire. Because he has associated with a different type of material qualityâŠâ
Devotee â âIn the Srimad-Bhagavatam, it says that Krishna did not want us to come to this material world. If Krishna did not want us to come, why are we here?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYes. You forced Krishna to allow you to come. Just like sometimes a child forces his father. Father says, âMy dear son, do not do this. Do not go there.â But he insists, âOh, I must go. I must go.â âAll right, you go at your risk. Thatâs all. And you suffer. What can be done? Because you are son of GodâGod has got independence, full independence, almightyâtherefore you have acquired the quality of your father. You have got little independence. So God does not interfere” Melbourne, Australia June 25, 1974
The comment by varahanarasimha Prabhu is an instance where Srila Prabhupada says just get out of the material world and do not worry how you got here however, Srila Prabhupada also said the opposite to that and that we should try to understand how we came to this material world. The following conversation took place in Mayapur on February 19, 1976
Guru-kripa â âThey say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very…â
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is independence. That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violateâ.
Sudama â âIt is very hard thing to understandâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âNo, it is not difficult. It is not difficultâ.
Acyutananda â âIt is not difficult. They donât want to understandâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âBecause you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel…â
Acyutananda â âBut in the Gita, it says, âOnce coming there, he never returns.â
Srila Prabhupada â âBut if he likes, he can returnâ.
Acyutananda â âHe can returnâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krishna-bahirmukha haĂŻĂ€ bhoga vÀïchĂ€ kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldownâ. (Conversation, Mayapur, February 19, 1976)
Srila Prabhupada explains in the Fourth Canto Chapter 28 text 50-54 of Srimad-Bhagavatam how we have all originated from Goloka where Narada Muni narrates the story of King Puranjana.
In the texts that concerns the revelation that we have all come down from Goloka or Vaikuntha to this material world, Puranjana has just died and his widow, Vaidarbhi, is lamenting distressingly. A brahmana approaches the queen and introduces himself as her âeternal friend.â The brahmana, who is actually Krishna, says to the anguished queen
âMy dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, canât you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original homeâ.
Srila Prabhupada here explains – âYou gave up My Company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material worldâ Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53
This clearly refers to the soulâs departure from the Vaikuntha to the material world, the fact is though the marginal living entity NEVER really falls, non of us actually fall, we only think, dream and imagine we fall due to our selfish desires that cover our original spiritual vision like clouds that cover the Sun.
Factually no souls fall from Goloka/Vaikuntha. We just have to comprehend what that means by our personal realizations and surrender to Krishnaâs pure devotees.
The choice is entirely up to the marginal living entity. Those marginal living beings (nitya-siddhas) that love/serve Krishna are situated in their full potential in the spiritual world in the complete âAWARENESSâ of who they perpetually are, which is their nitya-siddha body whereas those marginal living entities who choose to ignore Krishna and their nitya-siddha body simply project their consciousness to the mahat-tattva as their nitya-baddha secondary state which is but a non Krishna conscious echo of their true nitya-siddha identity in Goloka.
yes the many quotes are nice and we in ISKCON surely favor the idea that we fell from the Spiritual planets like Vaikuntha or Goloka, Srila Prabhupada surely seemed to favor this.But we have had members of ISKCON that has left ISKCON due to this issue, and it is not worth the controversy : how can we seemingly also contradict Srila Prabupadas words:
this is one of many examples
ĆrÄ«mad BhÄgavatam 7.1.35
dehendriyÄsu-hÄ«nÄnÄážż
vaikuáčáčha-pura-vÄsinÄm
deha-sambandha-sambaddham
etad ÄkhyÄtum arhasi
TRANSLATION
The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuáčáčha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.
PURPORT
This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but NÄrada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore MahÄrÄja YudhiáčŁáčhira inquired from him, saying, etad ÄkhyÄtum arhasi: “only you can explain the reason.” From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord ViáčŁáču who descend from Vaikuáčáčha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamÄyÄ, not mahÄmÄyÄ. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuáčáčha.
yes certainly : , âFormerly we were with Krsna in His lilaâ (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)
yes but if we read the same letter, Srila Prabhupada clearly explains that this discussion is useless, though at the end of the letter he surely gives his own version.
yes certainly : , âFormerly we were with Krsna in His lilaâ (Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami)
But why disturb those with a different view on this? and who take Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to heart?
There are two kinds of living entitles. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world, they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddha means they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, 1973)
The position of the nitya-siddhas is explained in the Padma Purana in connection with the narration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and Satyabhama-devi. The Lord tells Satyabhama, “My dear Satyabhama-devi, I have descended to this earthly planet by the request of Lord Brahma and other demigods. Those who are born into this family of Yadu are all My eternal associates. My dear wife, you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me; they are My personal expansions, and as such, you must know that they are almost as powerful as I am. Because of their transcendental qualities, they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them.” (Nectar of Devotion)
and again back to SB 7.1.35 purport:” In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as MahÄrÄja YudhiáčŁáčhira says, aĆraddheya ivÄbhÄti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuáčáčha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by NÄrada Muni as follows.”
yes even Yuddhishistira Maharaja had doubts why and how could anyone fall from Vaikuntha…lets drop it and go on Harinama
Every marginal living entity has seen Krishna because it was His association from whence we have all originated from. ALL OF US HAVE COME FROM GOLOKA-VRNDAVANA, from an origin that is in a perpetual state of originality that is forever fresh, forever youthful without birth or death, beginning or end.
Srila Prabhupada â”Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila and sport” Letter 1972 to Madhudvisa Swami
Srila Prabhupada â âWe have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago.” – Lecture on Bhagavad-gita August 6, 1973
Srila Prabhupada â âYou are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already thereâŠso actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion, then that is material. Try to understandâ. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture London, July 30, 1971
The irony here is no one really leaves Goloka, they only imagine they do by falling out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ of Goloka-Vrndavana. The resulting paradox is that while one is in the material world, they are actually only sub-consciously in the material world while their svarupa remains eternally in Goloka.
In this way, not only do they have no memory of their ‘eternal svarupa’ nitya-siddha body, but also have deliberately separated themselves from the âeternal presenceâ of Krishna Consciousness due to their selfish desires to enjoy without Krishna, which also means they have knowingly separated themselves from the AWARENESS of their perpetual nitya-siddha body which is their real authentic eternal self.
In other works, in Goloka we are our body while in the material creation (mahat-tattva) we are covered by many different material bodies.
Furthermore, by choosing to leave Krishnaâs eternal presence in Goloka, it’s almost as if the AWARENESS of the living entityâs nitya siddha body is suspended within that eternal presence of Goloka due to sub-consciously projecting themselves out of Krishnaâs eternal presence to the mahat-tattva time frame of past, present and future as nitya-baddha,
In doing so, they place themselves out of sync or out of step with the eternal presence of pure beginingless Krishna Consciousness that has no past or future time duration due to its perpetuality within the eternal moment of Krsnaloka where their ‘permanent ‘genuine’ bodily self is serving Krsna without beginning or end
Only the material creation was created whereas the Vaikuntha realm and Goloka-Vrndavana were never created because that imperishable all living dominion has always existed in the mood of Krishna Consciousness beyond mundane material time, space and decay
Actually from the point of view of Goloka, everything is still going on in the service of the Lord in relationships with Krishna and His associates; nothing is ever suspended there. The only thing that has changed is the ones awareness of ‘eternal moment in imperishable timeâ of Goloka in relation to the ‘divided perishable time’ of the mahat-tattva – hence it is not a division of consciousness, but rather a division of time.
Actually, when one again becomes aware of their eternal nitya-siddha body and relationship with Krishna, it will be as if their baddha-jiva dreams state never existed. On return to the ‘eternal presentâ, it will be as if they never left because nothing has changed in Goloka.
Srila Prabhupada â âSo even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that âWhy shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?â I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master; sometimes he may think that âIf I could become the master.â They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But heâs wrongly thinkingâ. July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C
Vipina â âWhy doesnât Krishna protect us from that desire?â
Srila Prabhupada â âHeâs protecting. He says, âYou rascal, donât desire, surrender unto Me.â But you are rascal, you do not do thisâ.
Vipina – âWhy doesnât He save me from thinking like that?â
Srila Prabhupada â âThat means you lose your independenceâ. July 8, 1976, Washington, D.C. Full conversation: http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760708ed.wdc.htm
Yes I know all these arguments and have never believe the soul came from Tatastha, I was one of the persons that also made sure temples did not allow the selling of ‘No leaves fall from Vaikuntha” and now in retrospect I am sad that this issue has driven some away from ISKCON and either Gaudiya math or their own vaisnava instituion ,so for general preaching:
“Get the heck out of the material world and chant Hare Krishna constantly”,how you come is not so important right now you are in samsara lets go on sankirtana Hari bol,yes and if some will accept these nice things you have mentioned from Srila Prabhupada even better, my point is lets not drive anyone away over this issue,or make enemies over it..it is not worth it
In understanding Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 7 Chapter 1 Text 35 Purport one has to first understand that Jaya and Vijaya caused an offence to Brahmanas cursed by the four Kumaras and as a result were given two choices to atone from their offence.
They could either take three births in the material world as Demons or they could take seven births as devotees. They chose to be in the material body as powerful demons.
They came from Vaikuntha under Krishnaâs compassion meaning they were given the opportunity to engage in Krishnaâs pastimes while in the material world as Demons, so when their offence was atoned they were immediately re-established in their eternal original svarupa or bodily position in Vaikuntha.
It must be understood they new they made a mistake by offending Brahmanas; at no point did they choose to give up Krishna as we have done, they were forced to give up Krishna in a devotional way by an offence to the four Kumaras but always remained Krishna Conscious even though that consciousness was based of the obsession to kill Krishna.
Now those who decide to remain associates of the Lord of course do not leave Goloka for the material mundane dreams and self centred importance they seek out in the mahat-tattva, that is, AS LONG AS THEY CHOOSE TO SERVE KRISHNA AND CAUSE NO OFFENSE however, there are those, less than 10% of Krishnaâs jiva-tattva associates in Vaikuntha and Goloka, who DO choose to come to this material world and forget Krishna, they are only interested in their own exploits and want nothing to do with Krishna or His devotees.
Any jiva-tattva can leave Goloka for the material creation, but most choose not to make that mistake. The important point is THERE IS ALWAYS CHOICE.
In other parts of Srila Prabhupadaâs writings, he calls Jaya and Vijayâs offence as a fall down, this is why in the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 7.1.35 Srila Prabhupada says âThis very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but
Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer itâ.
Jaya and Vijaya did not turn away from the service of the Lord. Although they wrongly offended the Kumaras, they were the Lordâs unflinching attendants even when they made this mistake or offence.
In Srimad-Bhagavatam, 7.1.34, King Yudhisthira inquires: âWhat kind of curse could affect even liberated Visnu-bhaktas? And what sort of person could curse even the Lordâs associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.â
Maharaj Yudhisthira is astounded that unflinching nitya-siddhas could be sent down into the material world. However, the point is that he is not referring to souls who have misused their free will and voluntarily went to the material creation (mahat-tattva).
As long as devotees in Vaikuntha remain unflinching servants of the Lord, they are never sent down into the material world, unless the Lord wants them to engage in a particular lila with Him..
Srila Prabhupada – âFor example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krishna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. So when I say âYes, there is eternal lila with Krishna,â that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya.â http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Srila Prabhupada compares the fall-down of the marginal living entity to the mahat-tattva to the narration of Jaya and Vijay and how they fell down from Vaikuntha. The fallen marginal living entity is similar to fallen Jaya and Vijaya but not the same because unlike us, they were sent by Krishna according to their choice of atonement for their offence to the four Kumaras, where as we chose to turn away from Krishna.
We preferred to selfishly imitate Krishna and by doing so, come willingly to the mahat-tattva to chase our own mistaken desires and forget Krishna, where as Jaya and Vijaya never gave up serving the Lord, they however offended His devotees and had to face the responsibility of that offence.
The difference between the two is that the Lord did not arranged our fall-down from Goloka, we did. We fell by misusing our-free will and not by the arrangement of Krishna. The unwavering devotees, who choose to remain a servant of the Lord in both Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikuntha, mostly do not choose to fall into the clutches of selfish exploits in the mahat-tattva nevertheless, they can come to the material world due to some offence (as Jaya and Vijaya)
Devotee â âIn the spiritual sky, when the living entity is in his pure state of consciousness, does something act upon him to make him illusioned?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYes. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They committed offence. So we sometimes commit mistake. That is also misuse of independence. Or we are prone to fall down, because we are smallâ. – Room conversation in Los Angeles on June 23, 1975
Srila Prabhupada – âAfter all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world, just like Jaya Vijaya. There is possibility. If you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down what to speak of this material world?â Bhagavad-gita 17.1-3 Lecture in Honolulu on 7-4-74
Srila Prabhupada – âNow, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, âGo back to home, back to Godheadâ – Srimad-Bhagavatam 5-22-75 Lecture in Melbourne
Srila Prabhupada – âThe answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy, whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishnaâs marginal energy.â – Letter to Rayarama, December 2, 1968
Srila Prabhupada makes it clear in the fourth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and numerous lectures, letters and morning walks we originate from Goloka and that we can fall from there at any time if we do not keep ourselves fixed in Krishna Consciousness. However, on returning again to Goloka, most NEVER again fall to this decaying material creation.
Devotee â âSrila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence, I canât seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we are in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krishna and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature⊠â.
Srila Prabhupada â âYou read the life of Jaya, Vijaya. They were Krishnaâs doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakesipu? So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krishna’s personal associates, the Doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.
Pusta Krishna Swami â â iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani sammoham sarge yanti parantapa: “O scion of Bharata, O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate.”
Srila Prabhupada â âPurport?â
Pusta Krishna Swami – “The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, Who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate, the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krishna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krishna appears by His internal potencies.
But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.
This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonour and honour, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking ‘This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master of this house, I am the husband of this wife.’
These are the dualities of delusion. Those who are so deluded by dualities are completely foolish and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”
Srila Prabhupada â â So, even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that âWhy shall I serve Krishna? Why not become Krishna?â I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, but sometimes he may think that, “If I could become the master.” They are thinking like that; they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he’s wrongly thinking.
Vipina Purandara â âWhy doesn’t Krishna protect us from that desire?
Srila Prabhupada â âHe’s protecting. He says, “You rascal, don’t desire. Surrender unto Me.” But you are rascal; you do not do thisâ.
Vipina Purandara â âWhy doesn’t He save me from thinking like that? â
Srila Prabhupada â âThat means you lose your independenceâ.
Vipina Purandara â âAnd no loveâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is force, in Bengali it is said, âIf you catch one girl or boy, ‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ ” Is it love? “You love me, otherwise I will kill you!â Is that love?
So Krishna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver. âYou love me, otherwise I shall kill you!â That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape. Why one is called lover, another is called rape?â
Vipina Purandara â âBut isn’t it by force anyway? If we don’t love Krishna, we sufferâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is your business. You’ll suffer. But that Krishna does not force you. He says the real, “You love me, you’ll be happy. If you don’t love, you suffer.” But that is your businessâ.
Vipina Purandara â âSo, what is the choice? â
Srila Prabhupada â â Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don’t make the choice, the best choice. You suffer. The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer. If you are intelligent, then Krishna says that, âYou surrender to Me.â You surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer. When a father says to his rascal son, “My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you’ll be happy.” If he does not do it, he’ll suffer. There is no other alternativeâ.
Guest â âSrila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore, government has to construct a jailhouse. It is not government’s desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krishna, for them there is material world, “All right, you remain here.”
Vipina Purandara â âWe also say that Krishna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krishna, why doesn’t He let us really enjoy independent of Him?â
Srila Prabhupada â âThat is not possible. That is Maya; it is called (Maya). You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that’s all. You are not enjoyerâ.
Vipina Purandara â âThen He’s not fulfilling the desireâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âNo, you wanted to enjoy–enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you’ll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stoolâ.
Vipina Purandara â âHmmm, enjoy at your riskâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ.
Vipina Purandara â âInstead of under His protection, you enjoy at your riskâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âTherefore He advises, “Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me. You’ll be happy.” But we don’t accept it. Therefore, sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on. That is your riskâ July 8, 1976 in Washington, D.C.
Srila Prabhupada explains that actually originally we are all nitya-siddha devotees
Srila Prabhupada â âEternally conditioned (nitya-baddha)? We cannot be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha), because we are part and parcel of Krishna. Our natural position is ever liberated, eternally liberated (nitya-siddha). But because we wanted to imitate Krishna, we wanted to become Krishna, as the Mayavadis want to do, therefore in the spiritual world, Krishna is the only enjoyer. (Bhagavad Gita as it is lecture, Mayapur, June 20, 1973)
Srila Prabhupada – âThe actual constitutional position of every living entity is nitya-siddha, by following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can become AGAIN nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make the nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, July 13, 1976
Srila Prabhupada – âOriginally everyone is nitya-siddha. nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti âsadhyaâ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, â. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4â Mayapur, February 18, 1977
Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established however, when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)
Therefore we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud obscurity which is the nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is now what we are only aware of, we no longer know or believe we are in Goloka because our factual âawarenessâ of existence IS no-longer in Goloka.
We forget that our nitya-baddha consciousness, like the cloud blocking the sun, is blocking any awareness to our nitya-siddha svarupa in Goloka. Our eternal constitutional position as nitya siddha is no longer visible to our eye. Just like one forgets the sun due to the cloud cover, we completely forget our nitya-siddha body because of our nitya baddha covering.
We are not able to see the sun shinning (our nitya-siddha body) due to the cloud or nitya baddha materially absorbed consciousness blocking our vision of the sun. The sun is always there, it has not gone anywhere, similarly our nitya-siddha body is always there in Goloka and also has not gone nowhere however; we cannot realized this because of the cloud or nitya-baddha covering
Srila Prabhupada – âAs living spiritual souls, we are all originally Krishna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness is now polluted by the material atmosphere, called Maya, or illusionâ. And what is this illusion? The illusion is that we are all trying to be lords of material nature, while actually we are under the grip of her stringent laws. When a servant artificially tries to imitate the all-powerful master, he is said to be in illusion. Hare Krishna Album 1966
When the Mayavadis say the world is an illusion, to them nothing is real because they have no concept that Krishna is the Supreme Creator and is forever enjoying His eternal pastimes within the eternal ‘presenceâ of Goloka, the undeviating immortal Kingdom of God. The devotees of Krishna see that if oneâs behaviour is not everlasting, then that must illusion, only because it does not include Krishna. Prabhupada constantly uses the word âillusionâ in his preaching to point this fact out, that which is illusion means it is temporary, decaying, fading, to the point that eventually it will appear as if it never was â that which is not – Maya.
Srila Prabhupada explains how the non-Krishna conscious rebellious dreams (nitya-baddha consciousness) are sub-consciously projected from one’s marginal identity in Goloka and transferred to the âcreation of the dreamingâ known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.
This secondary reality or mahat-tattva (material creation) is set up for the secondary (condition) of the marginal living entities known as the nitya-baddha lower self of restricted awareness. Such mistaken desires are non-Krishna conscious thoughts, dreams and desires that are housed in material bodily forms in the mahat-tattva
Srila Prabhupada â âSo this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life (nitya-baddha), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long, long, long, long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness then this period (nitya-baddha) is considered as a secondâ.http://prabhupadabooks.com/?g=170123
Srila Prabhupada – âBy following the rules and regulations and instructions of the spiritual master, he can again become nitya-siddha. So the Krsna consciousness movement is to make nitya-baddhas again nitya-siddha. Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.107 New York, 76
Srila Prabhupada â âThis material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma-Samhita describes â This material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creationâ. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en
Srila Prabhupada – âEverything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.â SB. 4.29.2b.
Srila Prabhupada – âOf course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lordâ. Bhagavad-Gita, Introduction
Srila Prabhupada – âThere is possibility (falling from Vaikuntha), if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall downâ. Bhag.-Gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)
Srila Prabhupada tells us that we have never been always conditioned as nitya-baddha because we have come from Goloka, rather, it is only our ‘dreaming’ non Krishna consciousness that comes to the mahat-tattva and not our nitya-siddha body due to not being able to exist within the eternal presence of Krishna Consciousness there.
The nitya-baddha consciousness therefore finds a home in subtle and gross material bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva that are temporary, our nitya-baddha conscious condition is also only temporary because ultimately and perpetually, we are all nitya-siddha in Goloka
In this way, just as the sun dissipates the darkness, when one is AGAIN fully established as their nitya-siddha authentic eternal body, the darkness or the nitya-baddha counterfeit non-Krishna consciousness will simply not exist. This is because the nitya-baddha feature of ones marginal identity can never exist in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha in the presence of Krishna and ones nitya-siddha body, darkness cannot exist where there is light.
When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes âthe awarenessâ of their svarupa in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, this does not mean that one is only restricted by a particular svarupa (body) for eternity. Ones eternal bodily form is not limited to any particular svarupa or nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are many examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in itâs originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms –
Yasomatinandana â “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada â “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 – Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the life force (nitya-baddha consciousness) moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare. In simple terms, one has the ability to âshape shiftâ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattvaâs like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, he is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where his endless pastimes are going on. Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained he enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?
FINAL EDIT When a devotee regains his/hers original Krsna Consciousness and re-establishes âthe awarenessâ of their svarupa in Goloka, which is never lost while dreaming as nitya-baddha in the perishable creation, does not mean that one is only restricted by one particular svarupa (body) for eternity. Ones eternal body is not limited to any particular nitya-siddha body they have there.
Also there are examples of devotees participating in the pastimes of the Lord in more than one svarupa at the same time, therefore our eternal rasa can change in Goloka; even though our nitya siddha or rasa body is perpetually situated in Goloka as a two armed form in itâs originality as Srila Prabhupada confirms –
Yasomatinandana â “Is the original body of the spirit soul a human form?”
Srila Prabhupada â “Yes, human form. God is also human form. “Man is made after the shape of God.” So God is also like human form. Here you see Krsna, two hands, two legs”. Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.1-4 – Melbourne, May 20, 1975
So unlike the material bodies in the mahat-tattva that are temporary decaying vessels the nitya-baddha consciousness moves around in, we ARE our body (nitya-siddha) in Goloka though, that body can transform because our eternal svarupa is interchangeable.
For example, ones svarupa can change to a four-armed form in the Vaikuntha Planets or a different form in Lord Caitanya’s pastimes in the top most platform in Goloka that He sometimes brings to the material world as pastimes, although very rare. In simple terms, one has the ability to âshape shiftâ into any form to please Krsna Caitanya and can also be in many places in various forms at the same time.
Caitanya Caritamrita is full of such examples. Most are Vishnu tattva expansions although there are many jiva tattvaâs like Naradha Muni as well. No jiva tattva in Lord Caitanya Lila is restricted only to their two-armed perpetual svarupa
Srivasa Thakura is known as Narada Muni, he also has his svarupa manifestation in Goloka. Therefore, by the elegance of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Narada Muni is also simultaneously situated in the top most regions of Goloka where Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s endless pastimes are going on. Further more, Srila Prabhupada has explained that Narada Muni enters the material world often disguised in different bodily vessels to preach Krishna Consciousness.
Who can understand the multidimensional full potential abilities of the liberated nitya-siddha souls?