Hare Krishna
Dandavat Pranams!
All Glories To Srila Prabhuada!
I am afraid but can not find any statement from Srimad Bhagavatam, the ripened fruit of ALL THE VEDAS, in this entire paper.
Please save ISKCON from this another leg of deviation- “Female DIKSHA Guruship”. ISKCON will become another infamous “Gurumaa” embracing society (of India). And am surprised that, despite of spending so-many years in Bhaarat (present day India), the authors in question (saying with full due respect) could not fully got the idea about the women of Vedic Times. They may have simply put the references in the paper, but any reader could guess that they want to promote the idea of “women liberation in ISKCON”- completely western concept (not Vedic as they quoted).
“India STILL has the Vedic culture prevelant at many places……..”. I am sure the author of this paper knows it well and he himself have spent time with those Vedic few, while on his preaching tour.
Please don’t take me wrong (or on offensive side) but having spent all my life in this pious land of India (degradation at present is one thing), I just could not believe it happen in the BONAFIDE Spiritual society- ISKCON, unless we don’t want to be a part of maya’s game. If this would happen in another society already fooling public with their nonsense concepts/ideas/philosophy, then I would surely not be surprised but if it happen in ISKCON then I am put to shame.
Not a sentimental message but a wake-up request call (before its too late)!
Forever in the service of Srila Prabhupada and his ISKCON!
FollowSP: “I am afraid but can not find any statement from Srimad Bhagavatam, the ripened fruit of ALL THE VEDAS, in this entire paper.”
On page 2 there is this quote (SB 4.1.64)
tebhyo dadhÄra kanye dve vayunÄážż dhÄriáčÄ«ážż svadhÄ
ubhe te brahma-vÄdinyau jñÄna-vijñÄna-pÄrage
“SvadhÄ, who was offered to the PitÄs, begot two daughters named VayunÄ and DhÄriáčÄ«, both of whom were impersonalists and were expert in transcendental and Vedic knowledge.”
There are more Bhagavatam quotes on page 12 and the following pages.
Prabhu, are you sure you have actually read this paper?
The quoted Bhagavatam verses do not deal with FDG issue at all.
While the ground work made by authors is to be admired, what we are essentially offered is several cases in shastras that require resolving contradictions consistently in a certain way plus several references to Vedic women being allowed to develop mantras and even wear a sacred thread.
Interestingly, in Yama smriti that gayatri practice is introduced with the word “previously”, as in “previous yugas” (pura-kalpe), which sounds like a case against FDG and suggests a different context for looking at pro-FDG references.
While on the surface it appears that the evidence presented in this paper supports FDG issue, I think it rather cements the current position – FDG should be an exception, not the rule.
I have volunteered a willingness to be convinced on the matter of lady guruship. Do these verses achieve this for me? When I see that various verses are produced, they tend to be snippets of the whole. They are not large swathes of sastric passages or entire chapters. But still, they mean something. Are they overwhelmingly conclusive? Again, not so.
Would this âsomethingâ be persuasive enough to hinge an entire culture and benchmark upon? It might be unwise if we do this. For instance, just because Srila Prabhupada appointed legitimate ritviks to initiate on his behalf – and there is authority of Temporary ritvik functionality from Srila Prabhupada himself – yet the Temporary has assumed full-blown âpermanentâ deviancy.
The same thing can happen here. If we pit these snippets against the aggregate and entirety of Vedic, historic and modern teachings of Srila Prabhupada, are they compelling enough? We have learnt from the ritvik deviations how an entire supposed culture with a âphilosophyâ can hinge on the flimsiest biased sample of Srila Prabhupadaâs own words.
But modern Kali-yuga times does give some palpable hints. We are all born as Sudra, so we all start off in life on an equal footing. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur mentions how because Ksatriyas were not able to defend âIndia,â this allowed invaders to impose their will. In other words, the male ability had eroded, leading to VAD disintegration.
The erosion of male protection and general ability has helped the cause of Sudra equality. This was detected by ordinary people – millions of them – and articulated by Marx and others. Our âcapitalistâ systems are slowly becoming like the highly centralised USSR of old, but with a âfreedomâ face on it. We need only see the EU.
World society is moving in the direction of gender equality. The most conservative Saudis have now accepted women representatives in parliament for example. While this momentum gathers pace, there is this 10,00 year Golden Age we all speak of, of which â by most estimates â 500 plus years have passed.
What does this world move towards equality and the 10,000 year Golden Age tell us? How many of us can forsee what the cultural base will be for this duration? Our devotee numbers are out-numbered by the birth-rate of other faiths.
We can see more vividly how Lord Krishnaâs Bhagavad-Gita female qualities of memory, intelligence, fine speech and the rest are utilised in politics, business, diplomacy, leadership and so on. Naturally, many ladies will wonder, âWhy should these good qualities be wasted and hidden behind walls of home confinement?â
Due to general male weakness, females of all ages are often abused under the guise of so-called tradition and protection. World and News statistics reveal how males are hardly living up to protection status. If this tide continues, people will start to lose faith in the male species. It is already happening.
When weakened males demand a return to, or a creation of male-dominated strictures in the face of suspicion and doubt, it is for males to prove their capabilities first. And yet we speak optimistically of a coming Golden Age.
When all these factors and more are considered, it decreases the odds of VAD implementation. The gradual increase in female influence may sway our collective thinking. In spite of all this, there is one inviolable and essential need that forms the bulwark of any society, and that is the family unit. Family unit means having a Mother.
It could be that the reason why the push for lady guruship has featured prominently is because âhigh-profileâ influences has pushed it, who may not be the majority voice of our devotees. The same applies for proponents of VAD.
With these opposition pressures bearing upon decision makers in the GBC, it is quite clear that we are collectively not ready for either school of thought to function at present. Will a lady guru earn great respect from ALL of our devotees? Will she be honoured on her Vyasa-puja day in conservative India?
We need more time for both sides to develop solid, viable credentials in terms of practicality and doubtless philosophical basis and substantiation for these, rather than appeal to possible interpolated historic veracity or equal modernity.
Out of these dual causes representing traditional and modern ends of the âVedicâ spectrum, we as Iskcon can surely forge a unique, blended cultural identity going forward in the âgolden age.â This blend should harness inventive, humane aspects of human enterprise with with the essence of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhuâs message of Krishna Prema. Everyone has a right to be Happy within it.
Due to general male weakness, females of all ages are often abused under the guise of so-called tradition and protection. World and News statistics reveal how males are hardly living up to protection status. If this tide continues, people will start to lose faith in the male species. It is already happening.
When weakened males demand a return to, or a creation of male-dominated strictures in the face of suspicion and doubt, it is for males to prove their capabilities first. And yet we speak optimistically of a coming Golden Age.
I find your statement here to be offensive and absurd. You have generalized that all men have become weak and abuse women. Does that apply to you as well? Are you speaking about yourself? Who are you speaking about? The real fact of the matter is that as sastras tell us since time immemorial there have always been good men and bad men and that women need to be protected from bad men (and themselves) by good men.
Your words are like a mangina reading from a feminist script and that I just cannot accept. If you believe it then you are also one of those weak men so why should we listen to you. Your whole attitude contributes to an adversarial attitude between men and women as you can see by my reaction. From the way you write men are all abusive, rapist, monsters. What kind of effect does that have on women? And what kind of man would want to be associated with women who have been affected by such rhetoric?
In general I find the the members of ISKCON are several years behind the curve on these issues. In the mundane world there is already much greater awareness of the pernicious effects of feminism and there is a growing backlash to it. While the rest of the world has grown wary of the social disease called feminism we in ISKCON are more than willing to drink the “purple kool-aid.”
Also please explain to me how it is that the pernicious effects of Kali yuga are gender specific and only affects men but not women. You need to go back and read SB 12 canto about what it does to women.
This desire for so called equality is a by product of the failed Marxist doctrine of which modern feminism is definitely and on off spring and like Marxism it will self destruct and that self destruction will take many down with it. This desire for equality is a manifestation of our envy of Krsna and wanting to be equal to Him.
Dear Kesava Krsna Prabhu, I didn’t quite get the meaning of this question:
What does this world move towards equality and the 10,000 year Golden Age tell us?
Are you implying that the upcoming Golden Age will feature equality of genders, among other things? That somehow the “enlightenment” of the modern civilization will be carried over into the era of Lord Chaitanya?
Personally I think that this equality is the source of everything that is wrong with modern times and I can’t imagine it would be present in a perfect, Golden Age society, and there would be no practical need for FDG, too (practical need in a sense how some people say that male gurus have failed us so we need female gurus have a go at it instead).
Yes, I am generalising about male weakness because Srimad Bhagavatam says so: O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed. (SB 1.1.10)
This statement did not come out of a feminist manifesto, although many women and males can agree with this sombering male prognosis. Can you argue with this? Not convinced? The word â janah â is used to indicated both men and women, so it is not gender specific. As usual Srila Prabhupada used male affixes.
âIn this age, men are victims not only of different political creeds and parties, but also of many different types of sense-gratificatory diversions, such as cinemas, sports, gambling, clubs, mundane libraries, bad association, smoking, drinking, cheating, pilfering, bickerings, and so on. Their minds are always disturbed and full of anxieties due to so many different engagements. In this age, many unscrupulous men manufacture their own religious faiths which are not based on any revealed scriptures, and very often people who are addicted to sense gratification are attracted by such institutions. Consequently, in the name of religion so many sinful acts are being carried on that the people in general have neither peace of mind nor health of body.â (1.1.10 purport)
Yes, even âin the name of religion so many sinful acts are being carried onâŠâ If we take Krishna consciousness to be religiosity, such are the results. One will notice how these weaknesses have lust as their cause. Spiritual strength can overcome these:
BG 3.43: Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Krishna consciousness] and thus — by spiritual strength — conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust.
The male psyche will not like to hear their gender being described like this. This is Kali-yuga reality, and the reality is that because males are generally weak, there is a worldwide move towards gender equality.
The Bhumi Gita in the 12th canto of Srimad Bhagavatm can give further evidence of male weaknesses:
SB 12.3.1: Sukadeva Gosvami said: Seeing the kings of this earth busy trying to conquer her, the earth herself laughed. She said: “Just see how these kings, who are actually playthings in the hands of death, are desiring to conquer me.
SB 12.3.2: “Great rulers of men, even those who are learned, meet frustration and failure because of material lust. Driven by lust, these kings place great hope and faith in the dead lump of flesh called the body, even though the material frame is as fleeting as bubbles of foam on water.
We can take note of how, even while practicing Krishna consciousness we think we have gained independence by being detached and renounced, we should remember that our clothing â under-garments and outer âgarments â are still provided by feminine energy in the shape of Mother Earth – what to speak of foodstuffs.
This dependence on Mother Earth indicates need, want and reliance â weakness. Once we wake up and small the Tulasi aroma of reality, we shall not view this world in stereotypical fashion.
Yes, I am also weak: 3) O Lord and Master! When will such mercy fall to this one who is weak and devoid of intelligence? Allow me to be with you. (Saranagati – Section: Bhajana Lalasa Song 11)
This desire for equality stems out of taking advantage of the weakness of males. But males cannot prove their superiority merely by physical and brute subjugation of females, they require spiritual strength to do this.
This is where Sitalatma Prabhu enquired about equality and the Golden Age. The equality reality of Kali-yuga is an observation, not my desire. At this point in time the world move is towards equality and yet we are 500 or so years into the Golden Age. My question is valid: What is this telling us?
Let me expand on my previous comments about generalisation and SMELLING the aroma of Tulasi, and not âsmallâ as was used.
Generally males and females, and all mixed genders in between, do not like to hear their own genders âderidedâ in generalised ways, even if Sastra does so. There is always something within us that says, âBut thatâs not me⊠this is unfair⊠its discriminationâŠâ
Human frailty generalisations usually stop when we arrive at Vaisnavas/is. In my previous comment the verse BG 3.43 was used to indicated where generalisations end, on the spiritual strength of Krishna consciousness.
There is a common expression used such as, âSmell the Coffee.â It is used to galvanise others into waking from the ignorance of deep sleep or daydreaming to âfully awakeâ further into ignorance. Grounded coffee has an agreeable aroma. Of course, devotees âavoidâ it.
For devotees to use the expression, âSmell the de-caffeinated coffeeâ would cause it to cease being an expression, but more of a brainteaser. âSmell the âwhatâ coffee?â might be a response.
To smell the aroma of Tulasi leaves and Manjaris has an origin in truth, that caused the Four Kumaras, who were self-satisfied Atmaramas, to become personalists in Bhakti. The aroma of Tulasi is also delicately agreeable, but packs unlimited Bhakti power when smelt.
To wake up from none-stereotypical awareness means to see things from none female and male attachments when we hear sobering generalisations about our own genders described. In this world, on the lap of Mother Earth, we are all weak playthings for her.
We cannot attribute generalisations to Vaisnavas/is even if there is some âmaterialâ conditioning in them. However, this discussion evolves around FDGs. We need to tread carefully when thinking we can place Vaisnava/is into VAD placements. We could say that there is a law for Vaisnava/is and another law for people in general.
I would also like to reiterate that what I describe about gender equality does not show my preference for it, as some readers might think. It is happening all around us as we speak.
I wouldn’t say we are 500 years into a Golden Age, I don’t see any symptoms, especially in India. That is a very curious description of the modern civilization.
People’s perceived level of happiness is lower than it was thirty or fifty years ago. Spiritually, religions are in irreversible decline. Family institution is totally destroyed, too.
Srila Prabhupada didn’t see Golden Age when he was present and nothing has improved since then. I don’t think we should count iPhones and internet so why would we be in a Golden Age now when we weren’t in Prabhupada’s time? Or maybe technically we are but that doesn’t mean that Golden Agre would truly blossom without the world totally changing its direction, meaning dropping this equality and “rights” business and restoring hierarchy and duties as prescribed by varnashrama.
Your interpretation of SB 1.1.10 is puzzling, too. No one argues that people have become weaker in Kali Yuga, the question to you was why you assume that it hasn’t affected women. You admit yourself that the verse talks about all people in general, it’s not gender specific, so why do you think women have suddenly become qualified to initiate disciples as if they haven’t been affected?
Actually, at the moment FDG is promoted mostly because women don’t want to follow stri-dharma anymore, they are not even trying, they reject it in principle. Male gurus, on the other hand, still stick to their traditional roles, maybe not always successfully but they really try.
To become a guru one must at the very least overcome the influence of Kali Yuga and preferably overcome the influence of the modes of material nature altogether. I doubt anyone can achieve that stage by abandoning his or her duties, and simply being the best among the degraded mlecchas isn’t enough either.
How would you disprove the existence of this perceived attitude: “I hate being a perfect wife and a mother to these unworthy Kali Yuga males so I want to become a guru instead.”
As a pro-FDG argument I can offer: “In Kali Yuga everyone is so fallen that when a soul elevates itself above the rest, follows four regulative principles and constantly engages in Krishna’s service, then it doesn’t matter whether he is in a male or female body. Formerly mantras given by male gurus and brahmanas had potency unavailable to women but now that advantage is no longer there, the only qualification is the knowledge of the science of Krishna.”
In a previous comment I mentioned, âby most estimatesâ the Golden Age began from Lord Chaitanya. However, some also say that the Golden Age proper began from the establishment of a temple at the Danda-Bhanga site, the place where Lord Nityananda broke Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhuâs Danda.
Often, Srila Prabhupada would say, âFor the next 10,000 yearsâ his books would be âlaw booksâ for that duration. If we take this estimate, and his books were written before 1977, it would still mean that we are somewhere within the Golden Age. It is an interesting subject.
By all accounts, it does not appear that this Age is in full swing. There will be numerous viewpoints on this. Some say that the renaissance in Europe signalled the beginning of it. If we had tracked scientific progress during this time, it has gotten to the stage of Big-Bang and Evolutionary theories. As time goes by, these theories will be overthrown with new ones. There is an attempted GUT (Grand Unified Theory) to enable a combined equation that can be printed on a T-shirt.
Who knows what scientific advancement will bring next? Science/physics has veered in subtle directions that possibly question our present mechanistic models, which would eventually confine GUT to the GUTTER of oblivion. More âGod-Particleâ science means perhaps touching upon the subtle realities of our existence, particularly the mind. Think of the possibilities then?
If it is shown that we are more than animated chemical stardust bags, then it might usher in a more humane science. âIf humans have souls, then why not animals as well?â Think of the implications? âBased on our new scientific findings, slaughterhouses are badâŠExploitation of world resources is also detrimentalâŠâ and so on.
We may not see avid changes, but there are certainly background changes occurring within this giant âchess gameâ of world affairs. This will affect people. The Holy Names will spread to accommodate such changes. Isnât that why we are members of Iskcon? But still, Equality is the stated objective of most governments at present.
The SB 1.1.10 verse is a generalised statement, and Srila Prabhupadaâs purport elaborated on human and male weakness even further than some feminists do. Is this âmanginaâ feminist rhetoric as Sugriva Prabhu thinks?
There is another equality we share, and that is male and female weakness. When males become weak, the females will naturally try to do what males fail to do. This is why we have disintegration in society. BG 3.43 was used to tell how such societal imbalances can level out â with genuine spiritual strength. This did not qualify as my argument for FDGs. It is an observation.
You stated: âTo become a guru one must at the very least overcome the influence of Kali Yuga and preferably overcome the influence of the modes of material nature altogether. I doubt anyone can achieve that stage by abandoning his or her duties, and simply being the best among the degraded mlecchas isnât enough either.â
One should at least surpass anartha-nivritti, which includes pratistha, and be solid in Nistha, preferably with ruci, before becoming guru. This is the ideal. The minimumâŠ
You queried: âHow would you disprove the existence of this perceived attitude: âI hate being a perfect wife and a mother to these unworthy Kali Yuga males so I want to become a guru instead.â
Any antagonism towards essential family and motherly roles help with worldly disintehration of human values. I have nothing to disprove.
We still have to evaluate codes of conduct for Vaisnavis who are different from none-spiritual females. We are dealing with unchartered territory socially speaking. Attempts are made to prove or disprove FDG eligibility. We cannot rely entirely on history when human intervention might have altered thinking.
As things stand now, whether we are a few decades or centuries into the Golden Age, it is clear that we as devotees are poles apart are certain issues, yet have an organisational responsibility to create a social and cultural base. In the meantime, with maturity, balance and common sense our Vaisnava aptitudes must moderate and gel into workable acceptance.
The Holy Name will always be there along with Srila Prabhupadaâs teachings. How we choose to mold our lives – and by extension â the everyday living of devotees â and by extension again â the âRe-spiritualisation of the whole world,â will only be determined fruitfully if we act and pursue on a human Bhakti platform. This can open up realms we never thought possible. By merely sticking to miserly interpretations of tradition and human control, we shall not make headway.
Hare Krishna
Dandavat Pranams!
All Glories To Srila Prabhuada!
I am afraid but can not find any statement from Srimad Bhagavatam, the ripened fruit of ALL THE VEDAS, in this entire paper.
Please save ISKCON from this another leg of deviation- “Female DIKSHA Guruship”. ISKCON will become another infamous “Gurumaa” embracing society (of India). And am surprised that, despite of spending so-many years in Bhaarat (present day India), the authors in question (saying with full due respect) could not fully got the idea about the women of Vedic Times. They may have simply put the references in the paper, but any reader could guess that they want to promote the idea of “women liberation in ISKCON”- completely western concept (not Vedic as they quoted).
“India STILL has the Vedic culture prevelant at many places……..”. I am sure the author of this paper knows it well and he himself have spent time with those Vedic few, while on his preaching tour.
Please don’t take me wrong (or on offensive side) but having spent all my life in this pious land of India (degradation at present is one thing), I just could not believe it happen in the BONAFIDE Spiritual society- ISKCON, unless we don’t want to be a part of maya’s game. If this would happen in another society already fooling public with their nonsense concepts/ideas/philosophy, then I would surely not be surprised but if it happen in ISKCON then I am put to shame.
Not a sentimental message but a wake-up request call (before its too late)!
Forever in the service of Srila Prabhupada and his ISKCON!
FollowSP: “I am afraid but can not find any statement from Srimad Bhagavatam, the ripened fruit of ALL THE VEDAS, in this entire paper.”
On page 2 there is this quote (SB 4.1.64)
tebhyo dadhÄra kanye dve vayunÄážż dhÄriáčÄ«ážż svadhÄ
ubhe te brahma-vÄdinyau jñÄna-vijñÄna-pÄrage
“SvadhÄ, who was offered to the PitÄs, begot two daughters named VayunÄ and DhÄriáčÄ«, both of whom were impersonalists and were expert in transcendental and Vedic knowledge.”
There are more Bhagavatam quotes on page 12 and the following pages.
Prabhu, are you sure you have actually read this paper?
The quoted Bhagavatam verses do not deal with FDG issue at all.
While the ground work made by authors is to be admired, what we are essentially offered is several cases in shastras that require resolving contradictions consistently in a certain way plus several references to Vedic women being allowed to develop mantras and even wear a sacred thread.
Interestingly, in Yama smriti that gayatri practice is introduced with the word “previously”, as in “previous yugas” (pura-kalpe), which sounds like a case against FDG and suggests a different context for looking at pro-FDG references.
While on the surface it appears that the evidence presented in this paper supports FDG issue, I think it rather cements the current position – FDG should be an exception, not the rule.
Part One:
I have volunteered a willingness to be convinced on the matter of lady guruship. Do these verses achieve this for me? When I see that various verses are produced, they tend to be snippets of the whole. They are not large swathes of sastric passages or entire chapters. But still, they mean something. Are they overwhelmingly conclusive? Again, not so.
Would this âsomethingâ be persuasive enough to hinge an entire culture and benchmark upon? It might be unwise if we do this. For instance, just because Srila Prabhupada appointed legitimate ritviks to initiate on his behalf – and there is authority of Temporary ritvik functionality from Srila Prabhupada himself – yet the Temporary has assumed full-blown âpermanentâ deviancy.
The same thing can happen here. If we pit these snippets against the aggregate and entirety of Vedic, historic and modern teachings of Srila Prabhupada, are they compelling enough? We have learnt from the ritvik deviations how an entire supposed culture with a âphilosophyâ can hinge on the flimsiest biased sample of Srila Prabhupadaâs own words.
But modern Kali-yuga times does give some palpable hints. We are all born as Sudra, so we all start off in life on an equal footing. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur mentions how because Ksatriyas were not able to defend âIndia,â this allowed invaders to impose their will. In other words, the male ability had eroded, leading to VAD disintegration.
The erosion of male protection and general ability has helped the cause of Sudra equality. This was detected by ordinary people – millions of them – and articulated by Marx and others. Our âcapitalistâ systems are slowly becoming like the highly centralised USSR of old, but with a âfreedomâ face on it. We need only see the EU.
World society is moving in the direction of gender equality. The most conservative Saudis have now accepted women representatives in parliament for example. While this momentum gathers pace, there is this 10,00 year Golden Age we all speak of, of which â by most estimates â 500 plus years have passed.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Part Two:
What does this world move towards equality and the 10,000 year Golden Age tell us? How many of us can forsee what the cultural base will be for this duration? Our devotee numbers are out-numbered by the birth-rate of other faiths.
We can see more vividly how Lord Krishnaâs Bhagavad-Gita female qualities of memory, intelligence, fine speech and the rest are utilised in politics, business, diplomacy, leadership and so on. Naturally, many ladies will wonder, âWhy should these good qualities be wasted and hidden behind walls of home confinement?â
Due to general male weakness, females of all ages are often abused under the guise of so-called tradition and protection. World and News statistics reveal how males are hardly living up to protection status. If this tide continues, people will start to lose faith in the male species. It is already happening.
When weakened males demand a return to, or a creation of male-dominated strictures in the face of suspicion and doubt, it is for males to prove their capabilities first. And yet we speak optimistically of a coming Golden Age.
When all these factors and more are considered, it decreases the odds of VAD implementation. The gradual increase in female influence may sway our collective thinking. In spite of all this, there is one inviolable and essential need that forms the bulwark of any society, and that is the family unit. Family unit means having a Mother.
It could be that the reason why the push for lady guruship has featured prominently is because âhigh-profileâ influences has pushed it, who may not be the majority voice of our devotees. The same applies for proponents of VAD.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Part Three:
With these opposition pressures bearing upon decision makers in the GBC, it is quite clear that we are collectively not ready for either school of thought to function at present. Will a lady guru earn great respect from ALL of our devotees? Will she be honoured on her Vyasa-puja day in conservative India?
We need more time for both sides to develop solid, viable credentials in terms of practicality and doubtless philosophical basis and substantiation for these, rather than appeal to possible interpolated historic veracity or equal modernity.
Out of these dual causes representing traditional and modern ends of the âVedicâ spectrum, we as Iskcon can surely forge a unique, blended cultural identity going forward in the âgolden age.â This blend should harness inventive, humane aspects of human enterprise with with the essence of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhuâs message of Krishna Prema. Everyone has a right to be Happy within it.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Keshava Krsna said:
I find your statement here to be offensive and absurd. You have generalized that all men have become weak and abuse women. Does that apply to you as well? Are you speaking about yourself? Who are you speaking about? The real fact of the matter is that as sastras tell us since time immemorial there have always been good men and bad men and that women need to be protected from bad men (and themselves) by good men.
Your words are like a mangina reading from a feminist script and that I just cannot accept. If you believe it then you are also one of those weak men so why should we listen to you. Your whole attitude contributes to an adversarial attitude between men and women as you can see by my reaction. From the way you write men are all abusive, rapist, monsters. What kind of effect does that have on women? And what kind of man would want to be associated with women who have been affected by such rhetoric?
In general I find the the members of ISKCON are several years behind the curve on these issues. In the mundane world there is already much greater awareness of the pernicious effects of feminism and there is a growing backlash to it. While the rest of the world has grown wary of the social disease called feminism we in ISKCON are more than willing to drink the “purple kool-aid.”
Also please explain to me how it is that the pernicious effects of Kali yuga are gender specific and only affects men but not women. You need to go back and read SB 12 canto about what it does to women.
This desire for so called equality is a by product of the failed Marxist doctrine of which modern feminism is definitely and on off spring and like Marxism it will self destruct and that self destruction will take many down with it. This desire for equality is a manifestation of our envy of Krsna and wanting to be equal to Him.
Dear Kesava Krsna Prabhu, I didn’t quite get the meaning of this question:
Are you implying that the upcoming Golden Age will feature equality of genders, among other things? That somehow the “enlightenment” of the modern civilization will be carried over into the era of Lord Chaitanya?
Personally I think that this equality is the source of everything that is wrong with modern times and I can’t imagine it would be present in a perfect, Golden Age society, and there would be no practical need for FDG, too (practical need in a sense how some people say that male gurus have failed us so we need female gurus have a go at it instead).
Part One:
Sugriva Prabhu,
Yes, I am generalising about male weakness because Srimad Bhagavatam says so: O learned one, in this iron age of Kali men have but short lives. They are quarrelsome, lazy, misguided, unlucky and, above all, always disturbed. (SB 1.1.10)
This statement did not come out of a feminist manifesto, although many women and males can agree with this sombering male prognosis. Can you argue with this? Not convinced? The word â janah â is used to indicated both men and women, so it is not gender specific. As usual Srila Prabhupada used male affixes.
âIn this age, men are victims not only of different political creeds and parties, but also of many different types of sense-gratificatory diversions, such as cinemas, sports, gambling, clubs, mundane libraries, bad association, smoking, drinking, cheating, pilfering, bickerings, and so on. Their minds are always disturbed and full of anxieties due to so many different engagements. In this age, many unscrupulous men manufacture their own religious faiths which are not based on any revealed scriptures, and very often people who are addicted to sense gratification are attracted by such institutions. Consequently, in the name of religion so many sinful acts are being carried on that the people in general have neither peace of mind nor health of body.â (1.1.10 purport)
Yes, even âin the name of religion so many sinful acts are being carried onâŠâ If we take Krishna consciousness to be religiosity, such are the results. One will notice how these weaknesses have lust as their cause. Spiritual strength can overcome these:
BG 3.43: Thus knowing oneself to be transcendental to the material senses, mind and intelligence, O mighty-armed Arjuna, one should steady the mind by deliberate spiritual intelligence [Krishna consciousness] and thus — by spiritual strength — conquer this insatiable enemy known as lust.
The male psyche will not like to hear their gender being described like this. This is Kali-yuga reality, and the reality is that because males are generally weak, there is a worldwide move towards gender equality.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Part Two:
The Bhumi Gita in the 12th canto of Srimad Bhagavatm can give further evidence of male weaknesses:
SB 12.3.1: Sukadeva Gosvami said: Seeing the kings of this earth busy trying to conquer her, the earth herself laughed. She said: “Just see how these kings, who are actually playthings in the hands of death, are desiring to conquer me.
SB 12.3.2: “Great rulers of men, even those who are learned, meet frustration and failure because of material lust. Driven by lust, these kings place great hope and faith in the dead lump of flesh called the body, even though the material frame is as fleeting as bubbles of foam on water.
We can take note of how, even while practicing Krishna consciousness we think we have gained independence by being detached and renounced, we should remember that our clothing â under-garments and outer âgarments â are still provided by feminine energy in the shape of Mother Earth – what to speak of foodstuffs.
This dependence on Mother Earth indicates need, want and reliance â weakness. Once we wake up and small the Tulasi aroma of reality, we shall not view this world in stereotypical fashion.
Yes, I am also weak: 3) O Lord and Master! When will such mercy fall to this one who is weak and devoid of intelligence? Allow me to be with you. (Saranagati – Section: Bhajana Lalasa Song 11)
This desire for equality stems out of taking advantage of the weakness of males. But males cannot prove their superiority merely by physical and brute subjugation of females, they require spiritual strength to do this.
This is where Sitalatma Prabhu enquired about equality and the Golden Age. The equality reality of Kali-yuga is an observation, not my desire. At this point in time the world move is towards equality and yet we are 500 or so years into the Golden Age. My question is valid: What is this telling us?
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Let me expand on my previous comments about generalisation and SMELLING the aroma of Tulasi, and not âsmallâ as was used.
Generally males and females, and all mixed genders in between, do not like to hear their own genders âderidedâ in generalised ways, even if Sastra does so. There is always something within us that says, âBut thatâs not me⊠this is unfair⊠its discriminationâŠâ
Human frailty generalisations usually stop when we arrive at Vaisnavas/is. In my previous comment the verse BG 3.43 was used to indicated where generalisations end, on the spiritual strength of Krishna consciousness.
There is a common expression used such as, âSmell the Coffee.â It is used to galvanise others into waking from the ignorance of deep sleep or daydreaming to âfully awakeâ further into ignorance. Grounded coffee has an agreeable aroma. Of course, devotees âavoidâ it.
For devotees to use the expression, âSmell the de-caffeinated coffeeâ would cause it to cease being an expression, but more of a brainteaser. âSmell the âwhatâ coffee?â might be a response.
To smell the aroma of Tulasi leaves and Manjaris has an origin in truth, that caused the Four Kumaras, who were self-satisfied Atmaramas, to become personalists in Bhakti. The aroma of Tulasi is also delicately agreeable, but packs unlimited Bhakti power when smelt.
To wake up from none-stereotypical awareness means to see things from none female and male attachments when we hear sobering generalisations about our own genders described. In this world, on the lap of Mother Earth, we are all weak playthings for her.
We cannot attribute generalisations to Vaisnavas/is even if there is some âmaterialâ conditioning in them. However, this discussion evolves around FDGs. We need to tread carefully when thinking we can place Vaisnava/is into VAD placements. We could say that there is a law for Vaisnava/is and another law for people in general.
I would also like to reiterate that what I describe about gender equality does not show my preference for it, as some readers might think. It is happening all around us as we speak.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Dear Kesava Krsna Prabhu,
I wouldn’t say we are 500 years into a Golden Age, I don’t see any symptoms, especially in India. That is a very curious description of the modern civilization.
People’s perceived level of happiness is lower than it was thirty or fifty years ago. Spiritually, religions are in irreversible decline. Family institution is totally destroyed, too.
Srila Prabhupada didn’t see Golden Age when he was present and nothing has improved since then. I don’t think we should count iPhones and internet so why would we be in a Golden Age now when we weren’t in Prabhupada’s time? Or maybe technically we are but that doesn’t mean that Golden Agre would truly blossom without the world totally changing its direction, meaning dropping this equality and “rights” business and restoring hierarchy and duties as prescribed by varnashrama.
Your interpretation of SB 1.1.10 is puzzling, too. No one argues that people have become weaker in Kali Yuga, the question to you was why you assume that it hasn’t affected women. You admit yourself that the verse talks about all people in general, it’s not gender specific, so why do you think women have suddenly become qualified to initiate disciples as if they haven’t been affected?
Actually, at the moment FDG is promoted mostly because women don’t want to follow stri-dharma anymore, they are not even trying, they reject it in principle. Male gurus, on the other hand, still stick to their traditional roles, maybe not always successfully but they really try.
To become a guru one must at the very least overcome the influence of Kali Yuga and preferably overcome the influence of the modes of material nature altogether. I doubt anyone can achieve that stage by abandoning his or her duties, and simply being the best among the degraded mlecchas isn’t enough either.
How would you disprove the existence of this perceived attitude: “I hate being a perfect wife and a mother to these unworthy Kali Yuga males so I want to become a guru instead.”
As a pro-FDG argument I can offer: “In Kali Yuga everyone is so fallen that when a soul elevates itself above the rest, follows four regulative principles and constantly engages in Krishna’s service, then it doesn’t matter whether he is in a male or female body. Formerly mantras given by male gurus and brahmanas had potency unavailable to women but now that advantage is no longer there, the only qualification is the knowledge of the science of Krishna.”
Part One:
Sitalatma Prabhu,
In a previous comment I mentioned, âby most estimatesâ the Golden Age began from Lord Chaitanya. However, some also say that the Golden Age proper began from the establishment of a temple at the Danda-Bhanga site, the place where Lord Nityananda broke Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhuâs Danda.
Often, Srila Prabhupada would say, âFor the next 10,000 yearsâ his books would be âlaw booksâ for that duration. If we take this estimate, and his books were written before 1977, it would still mean that we are somewhere within the Golden Age. It is an interesting subject.
By all accounts, it does not appear that this Age is in full swing. There will be numerous viewpoints on this. Some say that the renaissance in Europe signalled the beginning of it. If we had tracked scientific progress during this time, it has gotten to the stage of Big-Bang and Evolutionary theories. As time goes by, these theories will be overthrown with new ones. There is an attempted GUT (Grand Unified Theory) to enable a combined equation that can be printed on a T-shirt.
Who knows what scientific advancement will bring next? Science/physics has veered in subtle directions that possibly question our present mechanistic models, which would eventually confine GUT to the GUTTER of oblivion. More âGod-Particleâ science means perhaps touching upon the subtle realities of our existence, particularly the mind. Think of the possibilities then?
If it is shown that we are more than animated chemical stardust bags, then it might usher in a more humane science. âIf humans have souls, then why not animals as well?â Think of the implications? âBased on our new scientific findings, slaughterhouses are badâŠExploitation of world resources is also detrimentalâŠâ and so on.
We may not see avid changes, but there are certainly background changes occurring within this giant âchess gameâ of world affairs. This will affect people. The Holy Names will spread to accommodate such changes. Isnât that why we are members of Iskcon? But still, Equality is the stated objective of most governments at present.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Part Two:
The SB 1.1.10 verse is a generalised statement, and Srila Prabhupadaâs purport elaborated on human and male weakness even further than some feminists do. Is this âmanginaâ feminist rhetoric as Sugriva Prabhu thinks?
There is another equality we share, and that is male and female weakness. When males become weak, the females will naturally try to do what males fail to do. This is why we have disintegration in society. BG 3.43 was used to tell how such societal imbalances can level out â with genuine spiritual strength. This did not qualify as my argument for FDGs. It is an observation.
You stated: âTo become a guru one must at the very least overcome the influence of Kali Yuga and preferably overcome the influence of the modes of material nature altogether. I doubt anyone can achieve that stage by abandoning his or her duties, and simply being the best among the degraded mlecchas isnât enough either.â
One should at least surpass anartha-nivritti, which includes pratistha, and be solid in Nistha, preferably with ruci, before becoming guru. This is the ideal. The minimumâŠ
You queried: âHow would you disprove the existence of this perceived attitude: âI hate being a perfect wife and a mother to these unworthy Kali Yuga males so I want to become a guru instead.â
Any antagonism towards essential family and motherly roles help with worldly disintehration of human values. I have nothing to disprove.
We still have to evaluate codes of conduct for Vaisnavis who are different from none-spiritual females. We are dealing with unchartered territory socially speaking. Attempts are made to prove or disprove FDG eligibility. We cannot rely entirely on history when human intervention might have altered thinking.
As things stand now, whether we are a few decades or centuries into the Golden Age, it is clear that we as devotees are poles apart are certain issues, yet have an organisational responsibility to create a social and cultural base. In the meantime, with maturity, balance and common sense our Vaisnava aptitudes must moderate and gel into workable acceptance.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.
Part Three:
The Holy Name will always be there along with Srila Prabhupadaâs teachings. How we choose to mold our lives – and by extension â the everyday living of devotees â and by extension again â the âRe-spiritualisation of the whole world,â will only be determined fruitfully if we act and pursue on a human Bhakti platform. This can open up realms we never thought possible. By merely sticking to miserly interpretations of tradition and human control, we shall not make headway.
Ys Kesava Krsna Dasa.