By Devaki Devi Dasi
Throughout the sastra we will find statements that being in a woman’s body is a lower birth. Let us try to understand these statements more deeply.
To begin with, let us remember that this refers to the birth, meaning the material body, which we can compare to a vehicle the eternal soul is driving for this life time. The male and female vehicle have very different qualities and natures in order to fulfill certain roles and functions in this world. Not only do they differ in the gross body, but also on the subtle level of mind, intelligence and false ego. Infact Krsna has built into both vehicles the required qualities and natures, so they can fulfill their roles perfectly. In a nutshell the male vehicle is equipped in order to take charge, protect and provide, and the female vehicle is perfectly designed to bear and raise children and be the auspicious source of energy and inspiration to men
(SB.4.21.4.,5.1.29.,4.27.2.,4.26.15.). Thus they complement each other perfectly. However, to consider them to be equal is absurd. The equality is there, but only on the platform of the soul. On the platform of the temporary body they are very different, and to make these distinctions does certainly not mean one is on the bodily platform. It is only intelligent to understand the qualities of the vehicle one is driving. To identify with the vehicle would indicate the bodily platform, but not to clearly distinguish the two vehicles – their qualities and functions.
Since the male vehicle is meant to protect, provide and lead, it is considered to be a superior vehicle. Otherwise he could not fulfill this function. And since a woman is meant to be protected and dependant, her vehicle is an inferior one. So it is simply meant in bodily terms, which does not affect the equality on the level of the soul, nor their qualification for spiritual life.
Srila Prabhupada explains this in a SB lecture on the 3rd of August 1968: “I was student of psychology in my college life. Dr. Urquhart said, I remember still, that the brain substance has been found up to 64 ounce, while brain substance of woman has been found, highest, 34 ounce. Therefore woman class (laughs) is not so intelligent as man. There is no question of competition. It is actual, scientific fact. But one thing I must explain here. So far spiritual life is concerned, it does not depend on the material brain substance. It is different thing. It is spiritual platform. It has nothing to do with this bodily construction. You must remember. We don’t make any distinction that a man can be better Krsna conscious than woman. No. A woman can be better Krsna conscious because they are very simple. They can accept any religious system. Generally the women, they accept it because they are very simple. They have no crooked mind. Sometimes they are exploited therefore. So in the spiritual platform there is no such distinction, although in the material… Just like the bodily construction of man is different from woman, similarly, the brain substance may be also different, but that does not disqualify any woman for spiritual advancement in Krsna consciousness…..”
The fact that women are less intelligent refers to material intelligence, which is one of the material elements of the subtle body. As a rule men also have bigger feet. We usually don’t get agitated hearing this, since we don’t identify so much with our feet. It’s only the feet. But with our intelligence we identify much more, and we are so proud of being very intelligent. So therefore our ego is protesting when it comes to us women being less intelligent. In order to return back to Godhead we have to dissolve the subtle body of mind, intelligence and false ego. It can almost be considered an advantage to have a smaller subtle body – less work to dissolve it….!
If both men and women play their roles and execute their purifying duties within Krsna consciousness according to the vehicle they are driving, it is the perfect arrangement to make spiritual progress and ultimately qualify oneself to go back to Godhead. It is Krsna’s Divine system to give us stability and harmony in this world in order to create a solid foundation for spiritual life.
The word hierarchy comes from Greek and means ‘Divine order’, with Krsna being on the very top of this order. So Krsna has set up a Divine order, so that everything functions in harmony and peace, and all human beings are perfectly taken care off. Once we understand that Krsna is on the top of the hierarchy, then the terms of ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ will not create a competitive mood. The brahmanas are considered to be ‘higher’ than the sudras, the Sannyasis are considered to be ‘higher’ than the other ashrams, men are considered to be higher than woman. Are they competing with each other? Of course not, because being ‘higher’ means giving protection, care and shelter to those who are ‘lower’. However, when Krsna is removed from the top of the hierarchy, then somebody else is trying to take His place, and the Divine order easily turns into exploitation and suppression, and of course the aspects of envy and competition enter. So then the terms of ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ create the mood of disrespect, competition and abuse.
However, when Krsna is on the top of the hierarchy, and still we women feel inferior to men and compete, then this would indicate that we are on the bodily platform, identifying with the body and forgetting that the equality is there on the level of the soul.
As we all know, in these modern days there has been an increase of violence and aggression towards women. We can understand this to be the direct result of the fact that women don’t receive protection any longer. And of course, ladies can only be protected if they desire to receive protection. It also includes that we have to give up our independance – the price to be payed in order to receive protection. The whole idea of equality of men and women makes this difficult, if not to say impossible….
For further information on these topics please see www.therootsofspiritualculture.net
Dear Devaki, in the following words you describe that giving protection is indicative of higher birth and receiving it is indicative of lower birth: “Of course not, because being ‘higher’ means giving protection, care and shelter to those who are ‘lower’.”
I wonder how you arrived at this opinion as the ksatriyas “protect” the brahmanas and brahminical culture (real ksatriyas of course) but materially they are considered lower birth. Also women protect children, including boys, who are supposed to be a “higher” birth.
I therefore respectfully disagree with your conclusions. Certainly there are bodily differences which require women to be protected, but this does not mean they are of lower birth.
Dear Niscala, thank you for your question.
In Krsna’ s Divine order everybody serves those who are “higher” and “lower”. Spiritual culture is a culture of selfless service towards each other. So the Brahmanas are the “highest” of the varnas, because they protect the Ksatriyas by giving advice. Prabhupada explains this very nicely in SB 2.7.9.:”the brahmanas, by their learned labor of love, would instruct the administrator-kings how to rule the country in complete righteousness, and thus the process would go on as a perfect welfare state. ” And in the story with King Vena the brahmanas even decided to get rid of him, because he was not following their instruction! The brahmanas are considered to be in the mode of goodness, the ksatriyas in the mode of passion. Prabhupada gives the example of the body: the brahmanas are the head, and the ksatriyas are the arms, the vaisyas are the stomach, the sudras are the legs. Everybody serves each other, and the brahmanas protect the ksatriyas, who protect the vaisyas, who protect the sudras. This is the hierarchy – Krsna’s Divine order, so everybody is protected. In regards to mothers protecting the baby-boy: of course, while he is a small child the mother is the first Guru for him. But once he grows up, then he will protect her. Prabhupada explains this in the Teachings of Lord Kapila, verse 5:
“The son is always ready to see that the mother is not unhappy. Kapiladeva was anxious that His mother not feel the absence of His father, and He was ready to take the best care of her and give her knowledge. Because women are supposed to be less intelligent, they should be given knowledge, and they should also follow this knowledge. They should follow their father’s instructions, their husband’s instructions and the instructions of their grown, scholarly sons like Kapiladeva. In this way, their lives can be perfect. In all cases, women should always remain dependent.” And there are so many more quotes where Prabhupada explains how women should be protected by the father, then the husband, then the grown-up son or son-in-law.
Hope this clarifies things a little.
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Niscala wrote:
I wonder how you arrived at this opinion as the ksatriyas “protect” the brahmanas and brahminical culture (real ksatriyas of course) but materially they are considered lower birth. Also women protect children, including boys, who are supposed to be a “higher” birth.
REPLY
As I understood it, this statement was contextual. There were some cases listed just before that statement;
“The brahmanas are considered to be ‘higher’ than the sudras, the Sannyasis are considered to be ‘higher’ than the other ashrams, men are considered to be higher than woman.”
So the point being made is that in these cases the superiority is due to the fact that the ‘superior’ class were supposed to give protection (and guidance) to the lower class and therefore their superior status in these examples. It is not that a new and universally applicable law was being established. Otherwise we could also go further and say that the guard dog is superior to the master because he is protecting the master and the presidential bodyguards are superior to the President as they are protecting him.
Niscala also wrote:
Certainly there are bodily differences which require women to be protected, but this does not mean they are of lower birth.
REPLY
The fact that women are lower by birth is mentioned in numerous quotes by Srila Prabhupada, the previous acaryas and great sages (Srimad Bhagavatam). Just one example is Bhagavad-gita 9.32, where Lord Krishna says that even if one of lower birth – women, vaisyas and sudras take shelter of Him, they can attain Him. Therefore this whole article wasn’t trying to see whether that point of women being of lower birth is true or not but rather analyzing and elaborating on this point in detail (the first sentence of the essay). If we don’t agree that souls in a women’s body are of lower birth then we are going against Srila Prabhupada’s opinion as well as that of Bhagavad-gita (Lord Krishna’s opinion) etc.
Of course, as mentioned in this article and in numerous quotes by Srila Prabhupada, this is all on the material platform. We are not the body, we are spirit souls. On the spiritual platform we are all equal. A soul in a womans body can achieve perfection as much as and even more than a soul in a male body. The analogy given in the article is that of the driver and the vehicle. We are all in different vehicles and if we act according to our psycho-physical natures (as given in scripture) then we can achieve a level of peace and happiness as well as the easily fulfill the goal of life. But if we go against the nature (vehicle) that we have been conditioned with then things won’t be so easy for us. Hare Krishna.
In reading this article, I am drawn to comment on only one point. And that is not related to the issue of male or female bodies in the material world. I wish to comment on the fact that Srimati Radharani is actually on the top of the hierarchy, not Sri Krsna. This is not, in my opinion, a “wrong” statement by Devaki Dasi, but incomplete understanding. Although Srila Prabhupada did give us the explanation that the Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he also explained that the word “Hare” in the Hare Krsna mantra is there first BEFORE Sri Krsna because we must please Srimati Radhika to understand Sri Krsna. In the absence of this knowledge, certainly there is disharmony and unrest. But when the entire picture is there, what are the roles of females in the spiritual world as well as in the material world, then there is no longer disharmony. Women feel totally satisfied that their role model for spiritual life has been given Her proper recognition. When spiritual presentations are complete, then all material factors are satisfied.
Am I the only one who this this is an inappropriate comment?
Lower or higher birth are very material considerations. Using the strict Vedic criteria, all of us Westerners are of lower birth. And that lower birth outside Vedic culture can be somewhat of a handicap when it comes to adopting Vedic cultural norms and customs. But does it really affect our ability to become Krishna conscious? Not so much, it would seem from the history of our movement.
Regarding brain size (as in the quote: “Dr. Urquhart said, I remember still, that the brain substance has been found up to 64 ounce, while brain substance of woman has been found, highest, 34 ounce”), things are actually a bit more complicated. Not only is the size difference much smaller, but there are also important brain structure differences between the sexes, resulting in functional differences as well. In short, all of these differences make sense and are perfect, just like the rest of Lord Krishna’s creation.
Let us use what we each have, in the service of the Lord, without being distracted by the differences between us.
Niscala Mataji, children who are still dependent on parents, are not considered a higher. When the boy becomes mature then he expected to protect his mother. Till the boy’s intelligence is developed, he is dependent on his parents for his growth and hence is under their care. It must also be noted that in Vedic culture, a woman would not bring up her children alone, even if the husband was not present. Kunti, for instance, had given the Pandavas under the care of sages in the forest and lived with them for that purpose. Similar is the case of Mother Sita bringing up Lava and Kusa, the sons of Lord Rama.
The protection of brahmanas by ksatriyas is a type of physical protection by providing facilities for their spiritual practise and for the propagation of brahminical culture. Such a type of protection is actually for the well-being of the ksatriyas for by doing so they get the blessings of the brahmanas and remain on the path of dharma. It is not that the brahmanas are dependent on the ksatriyas for their protection. They prefer it is done by the ksatriyas for it leave them with more time for other brahminical activities. The brahmanas are very much capable of protecting themselves and the whole society. Their main contribution is the spiritual guidance of the other varnas, especially the ksatriyas. So it is the ksatriyas that are dependent on the brahmanas. Hence considered a lower varna.
The Brahmanas protect the kshatriyas by giving them knowledge, and as Visvamitra found out when he was defeated by Vashitha, that Brahmana tejas is greater than kshatriya tejas. The brahmanas can also kill but because it is not their duty to kill they leave that up to the kshatriyas. But if necessary as in the case of Vena they can also kill. Then of course there are Brahmanas who taught the Dhanur veda like Drona and Krpa acarya. And let us not forget Parasurama who was a Brahmana.
When Rama met Agastyamuni Agstya explained to him that though the Brahamanas had the ability to kill the Rakshasas themselves by doing so they would use up the power of their tapasya hence they preferred to be eaten alive by the rakshasas rather than use up their tejas to kill them. Hence the kshatriyas, whose duty it was to kill, was asked to eliminate the rakshasas.
When Lord Caitanya had fainted and His group was approached by the Pathans who were armed to the teeth and the Pathans accused the others of killing Lord Caitanya all the devotees were frightened of these Pathans except the Maharatrian Brahmana, who though unarmed and outnumbered 15 to 1, challenged the Pathans.
Brahmanas are the most fearless and not as weak as some suppose.
Dear Devaki Devi,
When you say that throughout shastra there are statements about women’s birth being lower, I assume you mainly refer to Prabhupada’s purports, because in shastra itself and our acharyas commentaries you will hardly find such statements. I only know of one verse in Bhagavad Gita and one in Srimad Bhagavatam that can be read like that. However, since Sanskrit is a versatile language, it really depends on the translator / commentator.
Gita 9.32 uses the term papayoni (lowborn or sinful) in relation to women, as well as shudras and vaishyas. It can be taken as an independant category, which means a separate class, as well as an adjective. Most commentators have taken the former meaning, that those of sinful birth, women, vaishyas and shudras can attain the highest goal. If you take it as an adjective to women and the other groups, then sinful would also refer to them. However, it is very unlikely that Krishna who Himself is a vaishya would make such a statement. Similarly SB 2.7.46. speaks of groups of people, including women, being papa-jivah (sinful). Here also the term can be taken as an indepedant clause.
Even if papayoni or papa-jivah were considered as adjectives to these classes, the intention of these verses is not to establish a human hierarchy, but to make a philosophical point. An important hermeutic principle says, na hi ninda nindayitum pravartate api tu vidheyam stotum, “The purpose of criticism is not for criticizing others; it is to establish the proper conclusion about the subject” – which in both cases is bhakti. (Btw, in her book “From Taj to Vraj,” Jaya Devi analyzes such shastric statements about women and their sheds light on their meaning.)
On the material level, I am not sure how much Prabhupada presented himself as an authority on these matters – given that he so often criticized and challenged empirical science. The idea about different brain substance and intelligence in proportion to it, which he took from his highly revered philosophy and psychology teacher 50 years earlier, had already been disproven by the time Prabhupada made this statement. So I don’t know how seriously we should take it. Science now speaks of different neurological pathways and simply different kinds of intelligence. And as you say, there is no need for women to feel inferior because of that difference.
Since Krishna obviously is not a vaishya, I have edited this sentence to avoid misunderstanding:
Dear Devaki Devi,
When you say that throughout shastra there are statements about women’s birth being lower, I assume you mainly refer to Prabhupada’s purports, because in shastra itself and our acharyas commentaries you will hardly find such statements. I only know of one verse in Bhagavad Gita and one in Srimad Bhagavatam that can be read like that. However, since Sanskrit is a versatile language, it really depends on the translator / commentator.
Gita 9.32 uses the term papayoni (lowborn or sinful) in relation to women, as well as shudras and vaishyas. It can be taken as an independant category, which means a separate class, as well as an adjective. Most commentators have taken the former meaning, that those of sinful birth, women, vaishyas and shudras can attain the highest goal. If you take it as an adjective to women and the other groups, then sinful would also refer to them. However, it is very unlikely that Krishna, who Himself appearded in a vaishya community, would make such a statement. Similarly SB 2.7.46. speaks of groups of people, including women, being papa-jivah (sinful). Here also the term can be taken as an indepedant clause.
Even if papayoni or papa-jivah were considered as adjectives to these classes, the intention of these verses is not to establish a human hierarchy, but to make a philosophical point. An important hermeutic principle says, na hi ninda nindayitum pravartate api tu vidheyam stotum, “The purpose of criticism is not for criticizing others; it is to establish the proper conclusion about the subject” – which in both cases is bhakti. (Btw, in her book “From Taj to Vraj,” Jaya Devi analyzes such shastric statements about women and their sheds light on their meaning.)
On the material level, I am not sure how much Prabhupada presented himself as an authority on these matters – given that he so often criticized and challenged empirical science. The idea about different brain substance and intelligence in proportion to it, which he took from his highly revered philosophy and psychology teacher 50 years earlier, had already been disproven by the time Prabhupada made this statement. So I don’t know how seriously we should take it. Science now speaks of different neurological pathways and simply different kinds of intelligence. Thus as you say, there is no need for women to feel inferior because of that difference.
Malatimanjari wrote:
One gets the impression from what you have written above “because in shastra”that you have gone through all sastras in the Vedic corpus that Rupa Gosvami thought relevant, that being all the sruti, smriti, puranas, itihasa, pancaratra, dharma sastra etc. Perhaps you could tell us what sastras you mean when you made that statement so that we can have a reference point. Did you mean that you did an exhaustive search of everything or only a few select items.
You will find no references to onions or garlic in the Gita, Bhagavatam or Caitanya Caritamrita but Srila Prabhupada refers to them quite often as being impure. If one then reads more extensively one will understand that Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas were referring to statements about such foods in dharma sastras like Manu.
Srila Prabhupada was vastly read in Vedic literature, if you listen to his recorded audio and read his books he mentions that he has read all the commentaries on Vedanta sutra in including Sankara’s, and not just Baladeva’s. That he read and very much appreciated Ramanuja’s commentary on the Gita, indicating that he had also read commentaries of Madhva and others. Bhaktisiddhanta and BVT published almost all the works of acaryas from other sampradayas especially of Madhva and Ramanuja,
Hence the comments that Srila Prabhupada made about topics such as women were based on his vast knowledge gained from his own personal reading and what he learned from his guru maharaja.
You mentioned only Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. What about Ramayana and other texts? In the Aranya Khanda when Sita and Rama were walking towards Dandakaranya after meeting with Agastya Rishsi, Sita had a discussion with Rama. She humbly prefaced Her talk by stating “even though a I am a less intelligent woman.”
And of course there are numerous statements that imply the lower intelligence of women and that in order to help us texts such as Mahabharata and Ramayana were written for “women, sudras and dvija bandhus” the less intelligent class.
SOME MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT….:
Yogesvara: Here’s a problem. The women today want the same rights as men. How can they be satisfied?
Prabhupada: Everything will be satisfied. Just like our women, Krsna conscious, they are working. They don’t want equal rights with men. It is due to Krsna consciousness. They are cleansing the temple, they are cooking very nicely. They are satisfied. They never say that “I have to go to Japan for preaching like Prabhupada.” They never say. This is artificial. So Krsna consciousness means work in his constitutional position. The women, men, when they remain in their constitutional position, there will be no artificial (indistinct) (loud traffic noises). (Morning walk, Rome, 05/27/74)
Srila Prabhupada didn’t want us to adopt American ways of life. After a Bhagavad-gita lecture Srila Prabhupada was asked if he was in this world.
He replied, “Just like I am in America. It is very easy to understand. I am not adopting any ways of life as the Americans. So I am not in America. Not only myself, all my disciples who are following me, they are also not Americans. They’re different from American behavior, American ways of life. In that sense I’m not in America. I am in Vrndavana because wherever I go, in my apartment or in my temple, I live with Krsna and Krsna consciousness. I don’t accept any consciousness of America. And I teach my disciples also to take to that consciousness. So one who takes to that consciousness, he is also not in America, not in this world.” (Lecture, LosAngeles,12/16/68)
Jaya devi, author of book From Taj to Vraj explained that the meaning of verse 9.32 in Bhagavad Gita is that in Varnashram in those days only Brahmanas could attain moksha. All other casts including women could not. However, in this verse of Gita Krishna says that in Bhakti everybody can attain Him. On other paths women may not do as well because these paths require more austerities and terse logic etc., but on the path of Bhakti women are usually superior.
If we really want to say that women were inferior (or lower birth) we also have to mention that all other casts were inferior (or lower birth) to the Brahmanas. Moreover, what is the benefit of such superiority that allows only moksha? Varnashram does not exist anymore and Bhakti is the most suitable path for people of this age.
Who is “Jaya devi” and why should we accept her opinion as an authority/
Its an embarrassment to his movement and legacy to preach misinformation that Srila Prabhupada had heard from Dr. Urquhart almost 100 years ago as if it were the absolute truth.
Women’s brains are not half the size of men’s brains. On average they are less than 10% smaller, which has to do with their smaller body mass. Large men also have slightly larger brains than smaller men but we don’t preach that large men are more intelligent than small men because they have larger brains.
Some studies show that on average women score a few points below men on IQ tests, but this is largely attributed to enculturation. That is if you are taught that you are less intelligent–you will think that you are less intelligent–and you will act as if you are less intelligent i.e. you will not expect as much from yourself.
This is clearly the case in many third world cultures where women are routinely discriminated against in the matter of education. Those who are somehow able to escape such cultures do as well in school as their male counterparts, which should tell us something about male vs female intelligence.
And by the way, a young women just won the nobel peace prize because she was shot by religious fanatics because of her campaign for equal educational opportunity for women. So in this day and age how does preaching that women are less intelligent than men help to spread the practice of Krishna consciousness?
Dear Brahma Prabhu,
The IQ test are just part of inteligence it does not indicate the full inteligent potencial.
The education including Collage education is maybe more complicated than a basic but still it is sudra education, so one does not really need high inteligence to learn it. I know one person with collage who so afraid to lose his job, if he is so inteligent why he is afraid? That means he is not inteligent enough.
For your last question, the answer is because to go to spiritual word one must be free of false ego including women, sometimes I have feeling that false ego has only men and women are so pure that they do not need purification at all.
ys Mahaksa Das
Intelligence according to the Vedic standard is the capacity to distinguish matter and spirit.
The form determines the function. The female form is created for making new material forms, that is babies, this engenders the nesting syndrome, the need to accumulate all the material resources to raise that baby into an adult. This instinct is present even if women for some reason or other do not have children, that is, they do not fulfill the function of their form. Thus by nature the female form is focused on matter not spirit.
Atmavidya Dasa is making an interesting point. Nevertheless, as far as I understand this refers more to the material duty, which, performed in KC will be spiritually purifying. We know the men have as purifying duty to protect, provide and take charge, which also will have a focus on matter, unless it is performed in KC. Then both will get a focus on the spiritual purpose of life. After all the mother is the very first Guru for the living entity and thus should also be focusing on the spiritual aspects.
What Atmavidya Prabu is just making the point about the female situation.
For women their dharma is Stri-dharma as explained in SB 7.11.25-29 and other places. If they follow that for the pleasure of Lord Krsna they go back to God head, just as Arjuna please Lord Krsna by following his Kshatriya dharma for the Lord’s pleasure.
Thank you for all your good comments and input to my humble attempts of sharing some thoughts.
The essence and main message I intended to bring across in my article is that Krsna has given us a Divine system, where everybody is serving from their particular position, according to their purifying duties, and thus every living entity in this material world is given care and protection. And in such Divine system the terms of ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ simply indicate the flow of protection: the ‘higher’ are meant to protect the ‘lower’, and also the ‘lower’ offer service back to the ‘higher’.
However, if we see this Divine system from a mundane point of view, which basically means that we forget Krsna to be on the very top of this Divine system, then the terms of ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ give a different understanding and invite the mood of sensegratification, competition and envy: everybody wants to be higher, thinking they will then have a better situation and more enjoyment and recognition.
Once we gain insights into Krsna’s Divine system, then we can understand that the lower birth of women simply expresses that women should be protected – that’s all. It does not mean that she is of lower value to human society, or that she is barred from making spiritual progress. Not at all.
This understanding of Krsna’s Divine system is being lost more and more in the modern days, mainly due to the misconception of equality of men and women. And this misconception again is based on the bodily platform of life, not realizing that the equality is there on the level of the soul, but not the body. Due to ignorance of the equality on the level of the soul, the equality is applied on the level of the body. It is almost like assuming that one plus one equals five. And of course, all further calculations will be wrong.
So therefore, if men and women are regarded as equal – how can men give protection to women? And why should women strive to accept dependance on men, if they are equal anyway? And thus we have an increase of dissatisfaction, unhappiness, exploitation and suffering amongst women all over the world – because they are not receiving the protection they need and deserve. This is the essence I tried to convey.
I was rather taken aback by some of the comments on this page and wondered how they passed the moderation. I really hope this comment is not filtered through:
1. One of the comments here is saying that Srila Prabhupada was wrong (!) on one of his statements about brain sizes. So you would rather believe a scientist than your spiritual master simply because of something you find on google. If Srila Prabhupada is wrong about that comment then how do we know he didn’t make a mistake in all his purports and his guidance on how to become Krishna conscious? We will not attain perfection until we attain unshakable faith in the words of the spiritual master. There is a BBT book called The Spiritual Master and the disciple. I urge everyone who doubts their Guru or challenges his opinion to go through it to save yourselves ourselves from spiritual suciide. If anyone refuses to follow their Guru, why should other people follow them or their opinion? Srila Prabhupada said: “if you think the Guru is wrong then you are wrong”.
2. Another comment: “Varnashram does not exist anymore and Bhakti is the most suitable path for people of this age.”
Well, yes Varnasrama does not exist and that is why Srila Prabhupada said to ESTABLISH VARNASRAMA. Bhakti is the most suitable path for all ages actually at lest according to Srimad Bhagavatam. And if we are going to establish VD then it means we have to start carrying out our roles and if women decide not to take up their roles in society then we can forget about social stability, good population, absence of Varnasankara. The natural system in any traditional society is that in any marriage, the jiva conditioned as a male has to lead and be the decision maker and the jiva conditioned as a female follows. This was in all societies.
3 TO BRAHMA DAS:
In reply to the third paragraph of your posting; I urge you to stop basing your knowledge on so called psychology and scientific sources which are designed by people who have four defects; A cheating propensity, imperfect senses, possibility for commiting mistakes and illusoined from the fact that they think that they are the body when they are actually the soul. Instead please seek answers from the Vedic knolwedge as well as their representatives like Srila Prabhupada. These are perfect sources.
In reply to the fourth paragraph of your posting; Women were not sent to school as they didn’t need it. Instead they were trained to properly care for children, cook, take care of the household affairs, teach children the rich culture and religious education that they inherited and even heal basic ailments with natural therapies. these are not small tasks. Now in so called modern societies girls are sent to school and all the above knowledge is gradually being lost, children are growing up with emotional and mental problems. Demons who are trying to destroy the Godly cultures so that they can exploit women more promote this idea of educating the girl child and employing more women and putting women in government. So now who is going to take care of the house, family affairs, character, emotional and mental development of the children, proper food and nutrition for the family members if both men and women are getting jobs and getting ‘educated’ ?
In reply to the last paragraph of your posting:
I would like to just give you a tip about reading news sites; ‘Read between the lines’. Things are not what they seem. That girl who got shot was sent a letter from the people who shot her. They said that they shot her not because she was promoting womens education but because she was writing against them on her facebook page. That was not reported in all the news sites. News is controlled for the purposes of the people who own it. The Nobel ‘Peace’ prize is regularly awarded to people who seem to oppose traditional systems in their countries (China, Arabia, India etc) and support western materialistic values and ideas. It is a political game, so you can’t use that to prove any point.
You wrote: “So in this day and age how does preaching that women are less intelligent than men help to spread the practice of Krishna consciousness?”
I havn’t heard of any ISKCON devotee directly preaching that. But if the issue comes up we have to speak the truth as Srila Prabupada did. You remember that he is our Guru don’t you and that we have to follow the Guru? Anyway you just have to google “men women brain size” and the same thing comes up, that mens brains are bigger than womens. No one is fored to do anything against their will but remember that ISKCON was established by Srila Prabhupada to carry out his mission to his Guru. All are welcome to join and be a part of it. But if you have a different aim or opinion, please don’t do it in ISKCON. Anyway we shouldn’t care what people think too much as a majority of the world is now addicted to the four vices and have no idea what it means to be living as a civilized human being.
Again though the main point is that we are not the body and that we are the soul. However as we have a body and are not fully pure sastra tells us how to deal with our conditioned nature and that is according to our psyco-physical makeup. We shouldn’t be too disturbed by the instructions but just accept them as higher guidance from a perfect source for our benefit. Just like a parent instructing the child. If we decide not to follow that, according to BG 16.23 we will attain neither happiness, nor peace nor the Supreme Destination.
A special thank you to the moderators for posting this message.
Your servant,
Murari das: “… But if the issue (that women are less intelligent) comes up we have to speak the truth as Srila Prabupada did.You remember that he is our Guru don’t you and that we have to follow the Guru?”
Yes I agree that we have to speak the truth as Srila Prabhupada did. The all truth about “that women are less intelligent” is not just that women are less intelligent but also Srila Prabhupada,s words that in Iskcon society girls are more intelligent than boys. We can read this statement in his letter. So I think that would be fair and loyal from all Prabhupada,s followers to say about this issue: “Yes, our Guru said that women are less intelligent but he also said and recognize that in Iskcon girls are more intelligent than boys.
ISKCON was established by Srila Prabhupada to carry out his mission to his Guru. All are welcome to join and be a part of it. But if you have a different aim or opinion, please don’t do it in ISKCON.
Devaki dd: “So therefore, if men and women are regarded as equal…”
We (men and women) are equal in we should be treated like that. We should also see every living being as equal. But it is true that we are not the same, we are all different – and, that is a beautiful thing.
Does this make either gender better or worse? Smarter or dumber? Lower or higher – even based on the bodily platform of life? More or less apt to succeed? NO! But, it does make us different.
We should embrace our differences. Each of us have unique nuances that make us who we are, and I think it’s an amazing thing….this means we can learn from each other, collaborate with each other, and truly appreciate each other for being an individual unlike anyone else who has ever lived.So, in Isckon we should treat each other with the respect and kindness and equal vision.
Mother Devaki writes: “So therefore, if men and women are regarded as equal – how can men give protection to women? And why should women strive to accept dependance on men, if they are equal anyway? And thus we have an increase of dissatisfaction, unhappiness, exploitation and suffering amongst women all over the world – because they are not receiving the protection they need and deserve.”
There is no need for women to be accepted as lower or less intelligent in order for men to treat them properly . Men should protect women entrusted in their care out of love, sense of duty, respect, or at least self interest – not out of sense of superiority, especially when that ‘superiority’ is often merely imagined.
Murari das writes: “One of the comments here is saying that Srila Prabhupada was wrong (!) on one of his statements about brain sizes. So you would rather believe a scientist than your spiritual master simply because of something you find on google.”
I think you are twisting or at least misrepresenting what was said in that comment. Srila Prabhupada quotes another ‘scientist’ from his youth, Dr. Urquhart, and unfortunately Dr. Urquhart was completely wrong when making that statement. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but the facts disprove Dr. Urquhart’s statement, and even a very cursory review of available data on this subject matter shows that very plainly. To claim that women’s brain size is no greater then 34 ounces is simply flat wrong, as an average woman’s brain is 43 ounces, while an average man’s brain is 47 ounces. Neanderthals had about 14% larger brains then modern men, and they go extinct, so maybe larger brain does not translate into smarter people?
Faith in Srila Prabhupada implies the conviction that he realized the purport of the scriptures and was devotionally perfect, it doesn’t require belief that he never made a mistake on any subject.
Bhaktivinoda Thukura discusses this issue in his Sri Krsna Samhita where he refers to artha-prada or relative information based on time and circumstance, and paramartha prada or the absolute or essential teachings of the tradition. According to Bhaktivinoda, relative information can be incomplete or incorrect even though it might be found in scripture or spoken by a self-realized devotee.
To emphasize this point he states that one is free to disregard relative information in his own writings if it is found to be incorrect. Such relative information would include the misinformation on women’s brain size that Srila Prabhupada attributed to Dr. Urquhart, a professor at Scottish Churches College the institution that he attended in Calcutta.
Correcting such misinformation is not a mater of faithlessness; rather it’s an act faithful to the heart and soul of Srila Prabhupada, his mission to spread Krsna consciousness. Whereas preaching such misinformation is a disservice and an embarrassment to him.
Why? Because he wanted his devotees to become known as ‘the intelligent class of men” not as fools and fanatics who are unable to even correct outdated misinformation.
Actually, weak faith (komal sruddha) is reflected in the notion that the guru cannot make a mistake, or if he does so his teachings are not perfect. Purity and devotion are what makes the guru perfect. In the material world mistakes here and there are inevitable—so says Bhagavad gita.
Many try to jump over Srila Prabhupada and Bhakti Siddhanta by quoting Sri Krsna Samhita and other texts by Bhaktivinode Thakura.
In the December 1931 issue of the Harmonist Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wrote an
article entitled “Thakur Bhaktivinode” therein he addressed the issue of how to
understand the life and teachings of Bhaktivinode. The following are some
pertinent excerpts:
This is why there is a guru parampara.
Maybe we are getting a little carried away here by the details, and we lose sight of the essence and the principles. This so often happens in these kind of discussions. Therefore I usually don’t like to take part in them. One easily gets stuck in an ego battle, which is not purifying to anybody involved. Nevertheless I want to thank Murari Prabhu for his comments. Very similar thoughts also went through my mind when going through all the contributions. But I prefered to respond by trying to bring back the discussion to the very essence and message I tried to convey.
The fact how much we are getting involved in this whole discussion of the brain size shows how much we are actually stuck in the bodily concept. It is indeed as if we discuss who has bigger feet – the men or the women! Who cares?! It is really not important. It simply distracts us from what is really important to understand….
Devaki, thank you for your reply:
“So the Brahmanas are the “highest” of the varnas, because they protect the Ksatriyas by giving advice.”
That is a different thing, as you were referring to bodily protection, as indicated by your repeated use of the word “vehicle”. If offering bodily protection is a sign of superiority then the ksatriyas are superior to brahmanas. If you meant spiritual superiority, there is no indication in the sastra that gender is a consideration in terms of spiritual consciousness at all. In the sastra there are descriptions of the kanishta, madhyama and uttama adhikaris, and no mention of gender being a factor.
I agree with your analysis of varnasrama and how everyone serves each other. Especially in a society of vaisnavas who are cultivating the “daso ‘smi” mentality, this should be very prominent. So, why bring up a discussion about who is superior and who is inferior- especially based on the body as the primary consideration- or possibly only consideration, as you don’t mention any other?.
Devaki: This is the hierarchy – Krsna’s Divine order, so everybody is protected. In regards to mothers protecting the baby-boy: of course, while he is a small child the mother is the first Guru for him. But once he grows up, then he will protect her.
But you were saying that based on inferiority of birth, the woman is protected. According to your belief, a boy is of a superior birth, yet he is being protected by one of lower birth. So this proves that the need for protection is not because the birth is inferior. There are certain material advantages to being in a (grown up) man vehicle- generally speaking- and one of them allows a man to defend a woman from unwanted solicitations of other men. That advantage is physical strength, but this is entirely dependent on circumstances. An invalid man needs protection from his wife. So even birth, what to speak of “lower” or “higher” birth is not the actual cause for protection. Having a desire to protect, and the physical strength to do it, are the actual causes.
To answer more specifically your former points- as it has been suggested that I avoided the context:
Devaki: And since a woman is meant to be protected and dependant, her vehicle is an inferior one.
This is what does not make sense to me, as by the same token, the body of a brahmana is inferior as it needs protection from the ksatriyas.
Devaki: Since the male vehicle is meant to protect, provide and lead, it is considered to be a superior vehicle. Otherwise he could not fulfill this function.
But the vaisyas provide for the ksatriyas and brahmanas. Are they considered superior? The ksatriyas protect even the brahmanas. And leadership is, or should be, according to spiritual qualities, not according to bodily vehicle.
Certainly a man should protect a woman, not because she is inferior, but because the vaisnava man cultivates kindness to all living entities, what to speak of his wife. He wants to protect even ants from being hurt, what to speak of the mother of his children. And there is also an innate sense of justice that this is the right thing to do. In addition, if the vaisnava man is on the path of vaidhi, he will take into account sastric injunctions to always protect women. So it is not because he considers the woman inferior.
Some thoughts from the excellent intelligence of my dear husband: In material consciousness, physical weakness is equated with inferiority, but that is not the basis of the protection described in the Vedas. The four classes which should always be offered protection are not protected because they are inferior. Children should be protected because they are defenceless, old people because they are weak, brahmanas because they have taken a vow of non-violence and cannot defend themselves, and women because they have physical limitations.
Thank you Niscala for elaborate explanation of physical protection,
I just tell you one thing that if Brahmana, for example, gives you an ayurvedic advice, he protecs you physically even he may be physically weaker than you. So protection of body can be percieved from different points of view. Brahmana also protectecs your physical body by spiritual advices, how? Because in human body we got chance to elevate ourselves and if one missuse it or not utilize properlly one will lost the body and will again fall in the circle of animal kingdom. It is said that one without Krishna consciousness is actually dead even living. So brahmana and more Vaishnava gives live to our dead’s bodies.
Human body is meant for spiritual realization. So one may live under a bridge and brahmana may protect his human body so one may return home. Or one may live in the palace with apparent protection but end elswhere than at home.
Mahaksa Das
Dear Murari Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
With all due respect, your outraged tirade against Brahma das Prabhu’s comment on Srila Prabhupada’s statement about man’s brain versus woman’s brain, is baseless. Please consider the following statements:
Prabhupada: So scientists, the psychologist… As I was a student of psychology and our professor, a big man, Dr. W. S. Urquhart, he said that “By studying the brains of man and woman, we have found the highest brain substance found in man, sixty-four ounce by weight.” You may deny. This is the statement of a big psychologist. You can shake your head, but this is the scientific words by big psychologist. You can note down his name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart, professor of psychology in the Scottish Churches College in 1918-20.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Television Interview — July 9, 1975, Chicago
Here, Srila Prabhupada remembers what his professor used to teach. He had great regard for his teacher and accepted what he said. But this is not a Vedic statement which should be accepted without argument. It is simply based on the then current western scientific research system which,as we all know, is subject to constant change.
Prabhupada: And the highest brain substance in woman found, thirty-six ounce. So that proportion is always there. It may be twenty ounce, forty ounce, but brain substance in man is more than the woman. That is a fact, always.
Harikesa: Is that in the Vedas also?
Prabhupada: No, I am talking of the psychology. I have given the name, Dr. W.S. Urquhart. When I was student, he said. So he is a great authority in psychology.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation after Press Conference — July 9, 1975, Chicago
Here, Srila Prabhupada clearly states that it is not a Vedic statement but a psychological one. Therefore, in the face of new “evidence” to the contrary, to not accept the former statement does not constitute guru-aparadha.
Prabhupada: Yes. Pure devotee does not aspire anything, simply to be engaged in loving service of the Lord, wherever it may be. It doesn’t matter. [break]
Jayadvaita: …they know everything and they’re perfect in everything. But sometimes, from our material viewpoint, we see some discrepancies. Just like we think that…
Prabhupada: Because material viewpoint. The viewpoint is wrong; therefore you find discrepancies.
Jayadvaita: So we should think that we have the defect.
Prabhupada: Yes. Acarya is explained, bhakti-samsanah: “One who’s preaching the cult of devotional service, he’s acarya.” Then why should you find any discrepancy?
Jayadvaita: Because we see… For instance, sometimes the acarya may seem to forget something or not to know something, so from our point of view, if someone has forgotten, that is…
Prabhupada: No, no, no. Then…
Jayadvaita: …an imperfection.
Prabhupada: That is not the… Then you do not understand. Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God. His business is to preach bhakti cult. That is acarya.
Jayadvaita: And that is the perfection.
Prabhupada: That is the perfection. Hare Krsna.
Jayadvaita: So we have a misunderstanding about what perfection is?
Prabhupada: Yes. Perfection is here, how he is preaching bhakti cult. That’s all.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Morning Walk — April 8, 1975, Mayapur
Here, Srila Prabhupada makes it clear that perfection in Krsna consciousness doesn’t mean that the acarya cannot make a mistake regarding material affairs. “Acarya is not God, omniscient. He is servant of God….. That is the perfection.”
To conclude, Srila Prabhupada, as a model student, accepted his teacher as the authority in then contemporary western psychology. This doesn’t mean that in order to be good disciples or grand disciples, we have to accept professor Urquhart as the ultimate authority.
May this find you well in this auspicious month of Karttika.
Your servant,
Visakha Priya dasi
Visakha Priya didi, I completely agree with you and I would also say that larger brain does not mean smarter people. I heard in Iskcon many times that women are less intelligent than men. Do anyone knows if there are any sastra evidence about this?
If women are considered to be less intelligent, then why does Lord Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita 10.34 verse that among women I am intelligence?
BG10.34
“I am all-devouring death, and I am the generator of all things yet to be. Among women I am fame, fortune, speech, memory, intelligence, faithfulness and patience.”
And again, the fact that learning and wisdom are represented as women, as a female personality, and learning is considered to be the gift of the female personality, Saraswati devi…
I am am surprised that this topic is be rehashed again. Here links to two excellent articles on the topic by Hari Sauri Prabhu:
Srila Prabhupada said that women are less-intelligent than men. Can we support this? http://www.dandavats.com/?p=600
And, “A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article“: http://www.dandavats.com/?p=740
Dear Prabhu, you say that you are surprised that”this topic is being rehashed again.” But actually, it hasn’t been solved entirely. What about the point recently raised about Sri Krishna’s statement in Bhagavad-gita 10.34 that “Among women I am fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience.” What does that mean? I really would like to know, not because I want to establish myself as equal or superior but because it is a genuinely puzzling statement.
Your servant,
Visakha Priya dasi
Srila Prabhupada says: “The seven opulences listed – fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience – are considered feminine.”
In Sanskrit grammar words are divided into genders “lingas” male, female and neuter. These words come under female gender.
Atmavidya dasa: “I am am surprised that this topic is be rehashed again…”
Topic about intelligent for Iskcon devotes is solved entirely. We should just accept Srila Prabhupada’s quotes and accept his word as final….
His words about intelligent for devotes are that anyone—man or woman—who takes to Krishna Consciousness is intelligent. And if we want to compare man and woman,s intelligent in Iskcon we should accept Prabhupada,s statement that in Iskcon society the girls are more intelligent than the boys.
But some of us would really like to know the sastra evidence about women,s intelligent in general.
We all know that Krishna said :” Among women, I am intelligence!” What that means is that among all the women of this world, the feminine deity who presides over memory, smrti is a representative of Krishna. This is also described by Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur, another great Vaishnav acharya. These are all, in the Vedic cosmology, the wives of Dharma. That means that whenever a person follows Dharma, then these qualities manifest in him. So again, the fact that learning and wisdom are represented as women, as a female personality, and learning is considered to be the gift of the female personality, Saraswati devi, that should make us a bit cautious about not misapplying or misunderstanding the idea that women are less intelligent.
If the Institute for Spiritual Culture actually wants to bring about “a cultural revolution for the re-spiritualization of the entire human society” it must distill the essential teachings of the tradition from the inessential teachings, and prioritize the former.
The notion that women are less intelligent–are never to be given independence etc. are not the essential teachings of Krsna consciousness. They are what Bhaktivinode referred to as the cultural baggage of the tradition and as such are subject to revision.
Intelligent, educated, independent, career women are certainly eligible to practice Krsna consciousness, and doing so they are not obliged to subscribe to the notion that they are less intelligent or are required to become subservient to men.
Why? Because cultural teachings taken primarily from the dharma shastras are subject to time and place consideration and adjustment. This is what Srila Prabhupada did when he created the brahmacharini asrama (which he admitted was not Vedic), and when he permitted his sanyassi disciples to don wigs and western clothes for preaching.
In these cases and many others Srila Prabhupada adjusted the cultural tradition in subservience to the ideal (Krsna consciousness) establishing precedence that his spiritual master had not. He did not freeze the cultural tradition to the time of his guru and neither should his followers as cultural revision is necessary to keep the essential spirituality of the tradition vibrant in face of ever changing times.
ISKCON has demonstrated some understanding of this in considering the ‘women diksa guru’ question and putting women on the GBC etc. but much more needs to be done.
In any case it should be fully understood that teachings on “the subservience of women to men” etc. are not absolute or essential principles of Krsna consciousness.
Brahma Dasa wrote:
That they are not “essential” in your opinion, doesn’t make them false. And when it comes to making judgements on certain issues they are essential. Such as should women be in management positions should they be diksha gurus.
They are in fact true statements of guru, sadhu, and sastra and no amount of waving around the “essential” magic wand makes them any less true.
Yes, the doctrine is not essential–in other words KC can be practiced without subscribing to the idea that women are less intelligent.
And the GBC composed primarily of men has concluded that women can be on the GBC and in positions of management–In iskcon thats the judgement that counts as true. Its absurd to think putting women in positions of management is against guru, sadhu and shastra. (The GBC decision on the matter proves that). Right?
Hmmmm lets see the 3rd offense against the holy name to is to disregard the instruction of the spiritual master or consider him an ordinary man. And the 4th offense is to blaspheme the Vedic literature or literature in the pursuance of the Vedic version.
So the spiritual master Srila Prabhupada and the Vedic literature discuss this topic and affirm it to be true. So by deny the truth of these facts (not subscribing to them) is in fact offensive to the Holy Name. So how can one practice KC by offending the Guru and the Vedas?
Your essentialist arguments leads to absurdity.
When you try to reduce everything to its most essential part you destroy the wholeness. This is just reductionism.
The most essential part of a car is the engine. It provides the power. But if you get rid of the tires, windows, seats, mirrors, doors, etc you don’t have a car anymore and you just have an engine laying on the ground and you are not going to get anywhere.
Your notion of “essentialism” is not a wholelistic view of Vaisnavism. It leads to absurdity and worse.
It’s not an offense to present the essential teachings of scripture and the spiritual master in light of time, place, and circumstance. This is what is expected of a mature disciple, and what Srila Prabhupada himself did.
“The teacher (ācārya) has to consider time, candidate and country… The ācārya’s duty is to accept the essence of devotional service. There may be a little change here and there as far as yukta-vairāgya (proper renunciation) is concerned. The essence of devotional service must be taken into consideration, and not the outward paraphernalia.” CC Madhya 23.105 Purport
Not all teachings found in scripture or spoken by the guru are equally important or applicable. Indeed, chanting Hare Krsna is an essential principle of devotional service, while teachings on the intelligence or trustworthiness of women are subject to time and place considerations. Indeed, they are non-essential because one can practice Krishna consciousness successfully without subscribing to them.
“One should try to live in Vṛndāvana and pass his time constantly remembering Kṛṣṇa’s name, fame, pastimes and qualities under the direction and protection of an expert devotee. This is the sum and substance of all instruction regarding the cultivation of devotional service.” NOI
The automobile analogy presented here is not applicable because besides the engine autos always require wheels and other parts to progress—whereas in Krsna consciousness progress is not at all dependent on subscribing to the idea that women are less intelligent.
Indeed, chanting Hare Krsna is independent of relative time—place—circumstance considerations.
An uneducated person can make progress in prison if he or she chants. Similarly, a woman who graduated with honors from Stanford can make progress in Krsna consciousness if she chants; and she certainly doesn’t need to subscribe to the notion that she is less intelligent than men.
brahma
Please accept my humble obeisances.
I read all these comments, it is also interesting that someone claims that shastra does not say that women constitution is lower than a man and so on. It is interesting how far someone may go to…and at the end she qoute her husband. So dear Niscala you claimed that you are equal but ultimatelly when pushed by contraarguments into corner you seek protection and intelligence of your husband, now you see what about all these contraarguments were for.
So many young ladies fight for her equality but I am sure when they will be of honourable age as Devaki Devi Dasi is than they will reach to same conclusion as this article is.
Wish you good chanting,
Mahaksa Das
As Baladev Vidya Bhusana says the more one tries to disprove sastra the more it gets proved.
Brahma Prabhu said: Intelligent, educated, independent, career women are certainly eligible to practice Krsna consciousness, and doing so they are not obliged to subscribe to the notion that they are less intelligent or are required to become subservient to men.
Yes, independant career women can also become Krsna conscious – no doubt.
Becoming Krsna conscious means that we receive an internal transformation. It is not an external thing, and we remain the same as we have been. KC is all about transformation. We are meant to transform our heart, our consciousness, our world view, our tastes, our habits, our likes and dislikes and our patterns of behavior. So usually if independant career women actually receive a deeper transformation through Krsna consciousness, they lose their taste for being independant career women, and they realize that there are much higher and beautiful aims to strive for in life when being in a woman’s body.
I remember once when I gave the course “Exploring the Roots of Spiritual Culture” in Mayapur, one young lady who was a lawyer from London shared a wonderful realization: “Now I realize that the world has enough lawyers! But what my family needs is a true mother and wife…..!”
So you career ladies out there: if you DON’T want to transform your life, heart, world view etc, then better stay away from this course….!!
Devaki devi dasi,
The mission statement on your website calls for “the re-spiritualization of the entire human society” but you say that ladies who don’t subscribe to your world-view that women are less intelligent/must be subservient to men should avoid your course. In other words the vast majority of women (and men) in the western world should avoid your course.
Your course is restricted (fine)—but the general course of Krsna consciousness is open to all regardless of their socio-political worldview. In other words, women are not required to be subservient to men or believe themselves ‘less intelligent’ to practice Krsna consciousness and perfect their lives. So ultimately it doesn’t matter if they are career women or housewives because there is no material qualification to practice Krsna consciousness. In other words, if a businessman can be Krsna conscious so can a businesswomen, to think otherwise is material.
Not only are modern non-devotee women loathe to accept the doctrine of subservience to men, but a large number of Iskcon women are re-considering it as well; particularly as so many Iskcon men have utterly failed them in this regard.
Consider this note I received from an Iskcon devotee:
Dear Brahma Prabhu,
I have been a faithful devotee in Iskcon for many years. I appreciate the balanced and relevant way that you have approached the subject (of women). This brings up the point of how those who consider themselves the followers of Srila Prabhupada want to take his statements on women. Taking them verbatim for all time seems to be one reason why ISKCON is so bogged down with the problems it is having in this area. Don’t you think that continuing in this way will make ISKCON more and more irrelevant to educated people as time marches on?
My answer to this question is yes, I do think that in modern times preaching that women are less intelligent than men etc. will make Iskcon more and more irrelevant to educated people. (Particularly when such preaching is based on erroneous information such as women’s brains are half the size as mens).
So my point here is that ‘less intelligent/subservient to men’ may work for you and some other good ladies of Iskcon (and that’s fine with me) but the doctrine is not absolute—not true and applicable in all circumstances—therefore it is subject to reconsideration and adjustment.
Iskcon must do this or remain irrelevant to educated people in the modern world.
All the best, brahma dasa
brahma dasa says:
The mission statement on your website calls for “the re-spiritualization of the entire human society” but you say that ladies who don’t subscribe to your world-view that women are less intelligent/must be subservient to men should avoid your course. In other words the vast majority of women (and men) in the western world should avoid your course.
No, I am not saying this. You did not read my statement with care and attention. Often we simply want to hear what we want to hear, just so we can shoot back. We are not open enough to actually try to understand the other person speaking. This is what we call selective hearing. It especially happens through internet, because we don’t see the other person in front of us, and catch their mood with which he/she is speaking.
I am saying those women who don’t want to receive a deep transformation but rather want to stay how they have always been should avoid this course! Kindly try to understand that the process of KC is meant to bring about a deep transformation of our heart, our world view, our likes and dislikes, our TASTES, our attachements, etc.
Believe it or not: I myself am a good example of a German professional career woman, who I was 30 years ago, receiving a deep transformation – by the power of the holy name and the process of KC.
I used to work in the medical field in Germany, specialized in rehabilitation, earning big money, self-employed – a professional career woman. And by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada I realized immediately, as soon as I came to KC, that there is much more to life than being a career woman. So KC has changed my taste, my world views, attachements, desires, etc. And unless it is doing this, our spiritual practice remains rather superficial and external. In BG 2.69 Krsna describes that the day of the materialist is the night to the introspective sage. So if we want to become true spiritualists, then the day of the materialist has to eventually become night to us. Then we have received a transfomration on deeper levels. It is a gradual proces, which each and everyone of us has to do themselves, in their own pace, and voluntarily. It is not something which can be imposed and forced on others. It can only be inspired.
And by the way: we also have a course for the men aswell – ‘Men in Spiritual Culture.’ We just had it recently in Goloka Dham/Germany. Please read the article which is now posted on Dandavats entitled “Men in Spiritual Culture – What a Paradigm Shift…..!” All participants found it extremely transformational. And once again: for all those men WHO DO NOT WANT TO TRANSFORM THEMSELVES, BUT RATHER WANT TO KEEP THINGS AS THEY ARE – you better stay away from this course aswell….!!
ISKCON is meant is meant for “the re-spiritualization of the entire human society” but we only initiate members into our society who agree to follow the 4 regulated principles, chant 16 rounds per day etc. Thus the vast majority of the worlds population who are engaged in the 4 sinful activities are not allowed. By definition a society is exclusive in that it only includes those who follow the rules of that society.
Thus ISKCON is open to any and everyone who wants to follow our rules but not to others. The same applies to Mataji’s course.
And BTW the vast majority of men in the western world do not subscribe to the views that you say they subscribe to, and their is a growing tide of women who are also against gender equity.
Actually it is not erroneous but factual and here the links that Atmavidya Prabhu provided that go deep into the topic.
Srila Prabhupada said that women are less-intelligent than men. Can we support this? http://www.dandavats.com/?p=600
And, “A response to Hari-kirtana prabhu regarding my article“: http://www.dandavats.com/?p=740
ISKCON in the West has become irrelevant because of those who want to make it “main stream” instead of providing an alternative to modern secular society.
What you are espousing is the same thing I hear every day from secularist, leftists, social engineers, marxists, LGBT, etc etc, all things that are dragging society down and have no basis in eternal truths but rather in trying to get some sort of market share by watering the “product” down.
And soon to be able to attract the “intelligent class” we will also accept abortion err I mean be “pro-choice” as one feted “devotee” politician is already doing. And then to reach those meat eaters we will allow meat eating, but that will conflict with reaching out to vegans for whom some want to stop milk drinking. You will simply not be able to please everyone, if you do you will please no one. That is what happen when you try to please everyone and give up eternal principles as being “out of date.”
Women don’t have to believe they are ‘less intelligent’ in order to chant 16 rounds and follow the 4 regulative principles, and such women can and have taken initiation into Krsna consciousness.
And that’s my point— the doctrine that women are ‘less intelligent’ is nonessential to chanting, following the principles, and taking initiation into Krsna consciousness.
The provided lectures by Hari-sauri dasa contain absolutely no scientific evidence that women are less intelligent than men. Yes, women are psychologically different and generally more emotional, but he provides no scientific evidence whatsoever that they are less intelligent.
What he and other Iskcon writers (both men and women) have done is to apply indirect meaning to Srila Prabhupada’s statements on the subject. In Hari-sauri’s words — it is a fact (that women are less intelligence) from a transcendental perspective, not from a material perspective.”
The problem with this approach is that it is evident in the case cited in Devaki dd’s article that Srila Prabhupada is discussing material intelligence. He says, “I was student of psychology in my college life. Dr. Urquhart said, I remember still, that the brain substance has been found up to 64 ounce, while brain substance of woman has been found, highest, 34 ounce. Therefore woman class (laughs) is not so intelligent as man. There is no question of competition. It is actual, scientific fact.—Then in the article Devaki dasi concurs saying “The fact that women are less intelligent refers to material intelligence.”
So back to my original objection. Regardless of ones position on the subject–in this case Srila Prabhupada is citing misinformation that he learned from Dr. Urquhart almost 100 years ago. Although cited and apparently believed by Srila Prabhupada, this particular piece of information on women brain size is not correct and therefore should not be preached or referred to as being a scientific fact. Doing so is an embarrassment to Srila Prabhupada and his movement.
I rest my case.
Brahma dasa
ACBSP
I found Hari Sauri’s articles very interesting and well researched. I do not find your comments to be well founded or helpful.
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please excuse me for such a lengthy post.
I have read the kind comments and points made especially those regarding my postings and am presently not able to answer all of them. I therefore plan to work on a separate article covering all the points. I do want to make some points here though relating to a post where someone said the Guru can be wrong and also relating to post where we are told some of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions were not essential to implement.
Brahma Prabhu wrote
If the Institute for Spiritual Culture actually wants to bring about “a cultural revolution for the re-spiritualization of the entire human society” it must distill the essential teachings of the tradition from the inessential teachings, and prioritize the former.
So this is your opinon. Someone else may have another opinion. Why should we follow you or someone else? Why don’t we just follow what Srila Prabhupada put in his books as this society is based on those teachings by default, why do we need to distill them? We were instructed by Srila Prabhupada on how continue the work of his society and so we carry it forward that way (see the quote from BG, which appears after the one below). Actually if we want to speak about priorities then Srila Prabhupada did say on a morning walk in 1974 to ‘immediately’ establish varnasrama colleges. There is absolutely no sign of that.
Generally we were taught by Srila Prabhupada to strictly follow the Guru in our Krishna consciousness practice and this will enable us to succeed, otherwise we will fail:
For advancement in anything, especially in spiritual life, one must strictly follow the bona fide instructions of the teacher. Aditi did this. She strictly followed the instructions of her husband and guru. As confirmed in the Vedic injunctions, yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [SU 6.23]. One should have complete faith in the guru, who helps the disciple make progress in spiritual life. As soon as the disciple thinks independently, not caring for the instructions of the spiritual master, he is a failure (yasyaprasadan na gatih kuto ‘pi). Aditi very strictly followed the instructions of her husband and spiritual master, and thus she was successful.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SB 8.17.1
This is just one quote but I a sure we can all find out other quotes within seconds. So,in Bhagavad-gita Srila Prabhupada says in BG1.40
As children are very prone to be misled, women are similarly very prone to degradation. Therefore, both children and women require protection by the elder members of the family. According to Canakya Pandita, women are generally not very intelligent and therefore not trustworthy. So the different family traditions of religious activities should always engage them, and thus their chastity and devotion will give birth to a good population eligible for participating in the varnasrama system. On the failure of such varnasrama-dharma, naturally the women become free to act and mix with men, and thus adultery is indulged in at the risk of unwanted population.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 1.40
Now, in the Manu-samhita it is clearly stated that a woman should not be given freedom. That does not mean that women are to be kept as slaves, but they are like children. Children are not given freedom, but that does not mean that they are kept as slaves. The demons have now neglected such injunctions, and they think that women should be given as much freedom as men. However, this has not improved the social condition of the world. …..But modern education has artificially devised a puffed — up concept of womanly life, and therefore marriage is practically now an imagination in human society. ……The demons, therefore, do not accept any instruction which is good for society, and because they do not follow the experience of great sages and the rules and regulations laid down by the sages, the social condition of the demoniac people is very miserable.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bg 16.7
What is Srila Prabhupada’s point here? It looks very clear to me and thus in no need for interpretation or deeper analysis. He also used sastric references. Souls in woman bodies show less intelligence and so a system of social order is required which would suit that and also for other purposes. It is natures plan for some reason. Does it mean they won’t go back to Godhead? No, Srila Prabhupada says clearly that it doesn’t disqualify them from spiritual advancement or attaining the goal (as does Sri Krishna). They may well advance faster than souls in man bodies. Krishna consciousness is simple for the simple minded and complicated for those who are complicated. You can try to interpret this is up or down or sideways or get other references and use some word jugglery but the meaning is very clear.
For those who say that Srila Prabhupada made a mistake or can make a mistake (as one person did say in their comment), well then who should we follow? You? If some points need clarification then we can have a discussion with the assumption that Sri Guru is correct but we could not understand his instruction. Its should not be based on the assumption that Sri Guru wrong and so we have to find another way.
We have to follow someone and some system. After so many lifetimes of following our own rascal minds and scientist and philosophers we now dedicate to following Krishna through his representative, the likes of which will only come to this world once every day of Lord Brahma. So this society, ISKCON was meant for following Srila Prabhupada and his books. Its right there written under every ISKCON sign; founder-acarya…If some of the members decide that now we don’t want to follow Srila Prabhupada because we think he is wrong or a product of his environment, or we want interpret his statements in his books or put footnotes, well the first thing is that is Guror avajna; considering the spiritual master to be an ordinary person or disobeying his orders and as mentioned in the quote above and this well block further advancement. Secondly, you cannot do this here in ISKCON as it has a different basis of instruction. ISKCON is based directly on Srila Prabhupada’s instructions and any change to that effect will be a deviation.
You may take some of these words as extreme, but actually for a person to declare their Guru as wrong or capable of doing wrong is very extreme unless of course the Guru has deviated which is not the case here. If we can decide how to chart out our path or that of the society based on our own opinions then why would we need a Guru at all? Arjuna said to Krishna in Bhagavad-gita that he accepts everything that Krishna told him. But we are smarter because we know what to accept and what not to accept? This is just not how the system of Guru-disciple works. In fact this quote showing Srila Prabhupada’s warning appears in the book ‘Srila Prabhupada Nectar’ by Satsvarupa Das Goswami:
Not being loyal to Prabhupada means to create a very serious erosion in the most crucial place — dedication to the guru. Prabhupada once said that if you lose faith in the guru, it is like a crack at the very foundation of your Krsna consciousness.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => SPN 2-49:
Lets make things simple again and just accept Srila Prabhupada’s quotes and accept his word as final otherwise if we start interpreting and adjusting, then we start a dangerous precedent and don’t know where it will end up. And anyway the whole idea is antithetical to the concept of surrender to the Guru.
As mentioned in an earlier comment this has gone off the main topic of the post and so I won’t mention any more on this topic or reply any comments on it. Thank you.
Yours servant,
Murari das wrote: “Souls in woman bodies show less intelligence…”
Do you have any sastric references? (not Srila Prabhupada,s purports) Where does this idea come from?
If women are considered to be less intelligent, then why does Lord Krishna say in the Bhagavad Gita 10.34 verse that among women I am intelligence?
10.34
I am Death among plunderers. I am the origin of all that shall be born. In women I am fame, prosperity, eloquence, memory, intelligence, endurance and forgiveness.
Among women, I am intelligence; what that means is that among all the women of this world, the feminine deity who presides over memory, smrti is a representative of Krishna. This is also described by Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur, another great Vaishnav acharya. These are all, in the Vedic cosmology, the wives of Dharma. That means that whenever a person follows Dharma, then these qualities manifest in him. So again, the fact that learning and wisdom are represented as women, as a female personality, and learning is considered to be the gift of the female personality, Saraswati devi, that should make us a bit cautious about not misapplying or misunderstanding the idea that women are less intelligent.
Dear Mataji,
My brother is getting married we want to find him a good match, could you please give us the contact information of these women “intelligence, fame, prosperity. eloquence, memory, endurance and forgiveness.”
You will of course think this to be a ridiculous and sarcastic question. Why? Because you will not be able to find them.
It appears that this refers to the shaktis of the Lord and all shaktis are feminine by nature. They are all persons but not of this world. Just as there is Sarasvati the goddess of learning. But would be a major stretch to then extrapolate and say that all human women are the goddess of learning.
Just see the hypocrisy! Murari Prabhu will not answer any more comments on the matter because he is unable to refute what I took the trouble to compile to establish the fact that a non Vedic statement may be rejected without constituting an offense to Guru. Whatever I wrote is not what I “think.” It is not “my opinion.” It is what Prabhupada himself discussed with inquiring disciples, and it has been recorded for posterity. The conversation with Jayadvaita Swami is very important. But I guess it takes a little extra intelligence to understand it without waving the spectre of guru-aparadha. We shouldn’t fool ourselves that we can understand Srila Prabhupada’s books without guidance. We need a living guru and the guru must be in good standing. Krsna, of course, knows everything, and if we want to fool ourselves, He will guide us accordingly. I am not writing this post for Murari Prabhu but for the benefit of people who are not fanatics and want to understand Srila Prabhupada’s teachings properly. His Holiness Giriraj Swami mentioned on several occasions that Srila Prabhupada had asked his disciples “Who is most important? the person Bhagavat or the book Bhagavat?” And then he gave the answer: the person Bhagavat is more important “because he can catch you by the ear.” Srila Prabhupada made a clear distinction between Vaisnavis and ordinary women. It’s there in the Cc, it’s there in numerous conversations, it’s there in letters, and it’s there in the Bhagavatam too. Dear readers, please pay attention to what the person Bhagavat is saying. Have you ever wondered why so many “independent” women disciples of Srila Prabhupada have so much love and affection and faith in him that although now very elderly, they still flock to Vrindavan–or anywhere else for that matter–to share with us Srila Prabhupada’s message of love and surrender—not to a hairy, malodorant bag of stool and urine and pus and mucus, but to the sublime message of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They have spent their lives in Krsna consciousness, and even if some of them defected at some point, they came back and continued to serve, despite the despicable attitude of unintelligent men who think themselves superior just because they have bigger brains or feet or whatever. And to criticize them constitutes Vaisnava aparadha.
Please let us shy away from all fanatical, uninformed, biased, and provincial attitudes which will surely ruin ISKCON if not dealt with properly. For that kind of people, varnasrama is urgently required. I can hear some people say, “Prabhupada said that no one should think himself above varnasrama.” But look at the magnificent memoir and biography of Yamuna devi that just came out a few days ago in Vrindavan. Read the testimonies, look at the photographs, and your understanding of Srila Prabhupada mission, a mission inherited from a long line of illustrious acaryas–not a fanatical, deviant, unenligthened sect promoting the bodily conception of life–your understanding may deepen. People of the stature of Yamuna devi, Mondakini devi dasi, Visakha dasi, Moksalaksmi devi dasi, and Malati devi, to name only a few of the most well-known disciples of Srila Prabhupada, are not “ordinary women.” And who cares for the size of your brain if you are not using properly and do not surrender to the acarya and the disciplic succession he established?
Hare Krsna. Your servant,
Visakha Priya dasi
Dear Mataji,
Hare Krsna. You are dragging out the old quote from Srila Prabhupada that ISKCON women are “special.”
This was brought up recently and challenged in several comments in an article by Mahatma Prabhu but no one including you could respond to the challenge. Here is a link to the unanswered comments/questions.
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=13077#comment-19518
Basically they ask such questions such as: does this mean that all sastric references to women do not apply to women in ISKCON? Do the laws of nature no longer apply to ISKCON women? Does this mean that ISKCON women, being “special” are never affected by maya?
If ISKCON women are special does it mean that ISKCON men are also special or are they just ordinary?
Do sastric references about men not apply to men in ISKCON or are only ISKCON women excluded from sastric oversight because of their “special” nature?
Can you please explain why Bhakti is gender specific and only edifies females, making them “special” but has no effect whatsoever on males leaving them as ordinary?
Since only the women are affected by Bhakti and thus become “special” why should males even take it up since they can never become “special” an exclusively female prerogative?
And if women are “special” why do I see so many of my female friends (self included) having difficulty in their spiritual life and even falling away? Maybe they are not “special” enough.
As Balakrsna Prabhu pointed out in the comment I linked to —
Dear Madana Mohini,
Thank you for your comment. The “old quote” I supposedly dragged out of the shadows is from Sri Caitanya-caritamrita and goes as follows: Not knowing that boys and girls in countries like Europe and America mix very freely, these fools and rascals criticize the boys and girls in Krsna consciousness for intermingling. But these rascals should consider that one cannot suddenly change a community’s social customs. However, since both the boys and the girls are being trained to become preachers, those girls are not ordinary girls but are as good as their brothers who are preaching Krsna consciousness. Therefore, to engage both boys and girls in fully transcendental activities is a policy intended to spread the Krsna consciousness movement. These jealous fools who criticize the intermingling of boys and girls will simply have to be satisfied with their own foolishness because they cannot think of how to spread Krsna consciousness by adopting ways and means that are favorable for this purpose. Their stereotyped methods will never help spread Krsna consciousness. Therefore, what we are doing is perfect by the grace of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, for it is He who proposed to invent a way to capture those who strayed from Krsna consciousness.
>>> Ref. VedaBase => Adi 7.31–32.
I think this quote will answer the question you charged me with not answering in Mahatma Prabhu’s thread, namely that if women in Krsna consciousness are special, then why not the men? I remember that while reading that comment I found it rather foolish and couldn’t be bothered to answer it. Because it is so obvious (to me at least) that surrendered souls are all special, regardless of their costume.
One personal aside: Some days ago in Srila Prabhupada’s samadhi in Vrindavan, I met Phalini devi dasi. Smiling brightly she introduced herself and asked me my name and then she said, “Oh, I think we are acquainted on the internet.” And I replied, “Yes, and I think we have different views.” She didn’t react to my comment and then I said that actually, internet relationships were misleading. She replied that her husband said the same thing. She then began to play the harmonium and her husband began leading a little kirtan for the pleasure of Srila Prabhupada, and I happily participated.
Hare Krsna!
You didn’t actually answer the question but gave a diplomatic reply. If you actually think that men are special too then it doesn’t look good to use the “special” card in trying to defend women. It just makes all us women look bad.
Atmavan manyate jagat.
Thank you for this posting. I completely agree with its contents. Of course, the next question will be to ascertain who, among the the persons claiming to be linked to the parampara, is truly linked and divinely guided. As Srila Prabhupada said, “Spiritual life is undoubtedly difficult but material life is impossible.”
One personal question: Are you the Atmavidya Prabhu who lived in South Africa for some time in the nineteen eighties?
Why are the women who believe that they are less intelligent and should be submissive to men arguing with the men who tell them they are wrong? To me that simply means they don’t really believe what they preach. What they are doing is taking something Prabhupada said or wrote on a number of occasions and trying to make that out to be something very important, even though in their interactions with men they do not practice what they preach.
And why should they? Clearly they see themselves as more intelligent and superior to the men they argue with, as do many women. Why should you artificially act or feel lees intelligent when faced with men you feel superior in intellect? Clearly many women are smarter and more capable of leadership than many men. To deny that in the name of dogma goes against the experience of everyone in the world. ISKCON will never be accepted on a wide scale outside of the Hindu community, and in fact will be castigated continually as long as they take a stubborn stand on things that will never be acceptable to most people as important points of contention and dogma.
Bhakti is outside of material considerations, ISKCON needs to be seen as a purely spiritual environment in order to succeed outside of Hindu society. Making a point of dogma centered around belittling half the population is not going to go over with most people – obviously. The opposite will occur. Enemies will be made for no reason other than stubborn insistence on misguided ideology, that also serves no purpose in Bhakti practice. With modern media so invasive and all-pervading it’s really advisable for ISKCON to get it’s house in order before they become the target of media attacks. Seriously, how long can this go on before the adults take charge?
Dear Devaki, you wrote: I am saying those women who don’t want to receive a deep transformation but rather want to stay how they have always been should avoid this course!
You wrote this in response to Brahma who has argued that deep transformation in Krsna consciousness is effected by our sadhana practices- chanting the maha-mantra, and following the four regulative principles . You have also agreed with him that a career woman can become Krsna conscious. So if it is sadhana that brings about our Krsna consciousness, which is the very definition of sadhana given in Bhakti-rasmrita sindhu, and if career women can also become Krsna conscious, as you have said, then what is the nature of the deep transformation you refer to, which you imply that your course will facilitate? Or is your course just about sadhana?
If it is a deep transformation in Krsna consciousness,and your course is just about sadhana, then this statement implies that all who stay away from your course are not sincere in their sadhana, being not interested in a deep transformation in their Krsna consciousness. But they could have shown their sincerity in other ways, or they could already have received a deep transformation. If your course is not about sadhana, but about the superiority and inferiority of people in relation to their gender, their level of intelligence and so on- that is not sadhana. So how could it bring about a deep transformation in Krsna consciousness?
Your next statement places the deeper transformation through Krsna consciousness before loss of interest as a career woman:
You wrote: So usually if independant career women actually receive a deeper transformation through Krsna consciousness, they lose their taste for being independant career women, and they realize that there are much higher and beautiful aims to strive for in life when being in a woman’s body.
I completely agree with this. If by chanting, hearing, remembering the lotus feet of Krsna, His lila, His associates and His dhama, a career woman loses all taste for being a career woman and wants to dedicate herself completely to Krsna, then it would certainly prove she has a higher taste. But the loss of desire for material acquisition comes naturally as a result of bhakti, one does not have to strive for it separately. Jnana and vairagya are described as the results of bhakti. When the loss of desire for material acquisition occurs, a devotee wants to give up all sense of I and mine- except in relation to Krsna, and thus, there is a complete transformation of ahankara into spiritual ego. He does not see himself or herself in relation to his method of livelihood, and though he may not change it, he loses his taste for that identification, and the material facility it offers.
At this point a devotee does not see in terms of his body, and other’s bodies, but in terms of everyone’s relationship to Krsna. If he or she is on the uttama adhikari platform, he or she will see themselves as servants of everyone. If he or she is on the intermediate platform, there will be spiritual discrimination in terms of spiritual advancement. That “madhyam adhikari” will see more advanced devotees, less advanced devotees and peers, and will serve all of them- but in different ways. He or she will help the less advanced, he or she will be friends with peers, and menially serve the more advanced devotee.
In such spiritually enlightened souls, there will be no sense of superior or inferior on the bodily platform, as this is the hallmark of the kanishta devotee.
Dear Niscala Mataji,
thank you for your question. I am posting below some testimonials written by ladies who took part in the course recently in Radhadesh. It might be more convincing to hear from them, rather than from me.
Radhadesh – Belgium, September 2014
Visakha Devi Dasi, Radhadesh
I found the entire course ‘Women in Spiritual Culture’ extremely interesting and relevant. For the first time I could deeply understand the controversial topics about women, relationships between men and women, behavior, dress codes, etc. Everything just made so much sense and it was a relief to get insights into the proper perspective. I really liked the explanation about the powerful female energy and how it can be destructive to ultimately the entire society, or, on the contrary inspire and empower the men. The whole topic of women submitting to men simply became so wonderful – it completely lost this bitter taste it often had before. I feel totally at ease now being in a woman’s body, having the privilege of being a mother and striving to become a chaste and submissive wife. I feel really excited to apply everything I learnt in order to bring more harmony and stability into my life.
I very much appreciated how Devaki Mataji shared her personal experiences and also the mistakes she made herself in the past, before gaining insights into this lost and forgotten knowledge of spiritual culture. I really appreciate that she encouraged us where we stand without putting pressure or judging those who have not come up to a higher level yet.
Sri Kumari Devi Dasi, Kuwait
Devaki Mataji’s course in its entirety is very illustrative and practical. I was especially impressed by the concept that women are meant to be the auspicious source of energy to men. It also tremendously helped to understand that when women, consciously or unconsciously choose to not be the auspicious source of inspiration, and instead compete with men – it throws them off balance first, and then their relationships with women, and finally how on a communal and global scale the imbalance leads to mistreatment of women in the form of exploitation: physically, financially and even emotionally. For months I have been quite disturbed about the mistreatment of women – rape, violence, etc – and I would wonder whether Krsna consciousness has the answer to everything. I was hoping and praying for a practical answer firmly based in Krsna consciousness, which could explain and perhaps even provide solutions to the afore mentioned global issues. Devaki Mataji’s course gives this answer and the solutions – for women and men alike. I am thankful for her enlightening seminar which came at a time when I was quite frustrated of blaming the other gender. I am convinced, with her blessings and mercy, that girls and women have this power and energy to turn in themselves to Krsna and in the process also serve and inspire their families and communities to do just the same.
Bhaktin Lara Orlic, Croatia
The topic that affected me the most is the understanding how a woman should behave towards men, how she should be the source of auspiciousness for them, and not a seductive and cosmopolitan girl. I wish I had heard about this knowledge as a young girl which would have spared me from wasting many years of my life which I have spent in trying to be a hip modern Western urban girl. Modern lifestyle has spoiled me in so many ways. No matter how much I tried to adjust to the modern lifestyle, people would tell me: “This is not you. You are trying to be somebody who you are not.”
Only now I understand what they meant.
And at least with the help of this seminar today I can make a new list of my values and priorities.
I had no idea that the tools to a woman’s beauty and being herself are the qualities of tolerance and shyness, resulting in chastity. And that these are the qualities which ultimately make a woman most attractive and desirable for men. I am happy to learn these things, and I secretly hope they will bring some changes to my life. At least I can stop hankering to be something which I am not. I find that some restriction, correction and discipline works as a kind of protective fence – like in a garden where beautiful flowers can grow. I see this knowledge of the principles of spiritual culture as a challenge for me to become more mature, responsible and selfless, and more mother-like. I pray that the weaknesses in my character can become a source for spiritual growth leading to a beneficial transformation.
Madan-mohan Mohini Dasi, Radhadesh
This course “Women in Spiritual Culture” is a wonderful tool women can utilize in discovering, realizing and expressing their nature being in a woman’s body. It is a challenging journey into the inner corners of ourselves. It clears away many of the misconceptions, fears and brings relief.
Especially interesting was to hear and understand the differences between materialistic and spiritual culture and our roles. I was affected the most by the deeper explanations of the position of the mother. The fact that the position and role of women is so important – at home and within society at large, that they create the whole atmosphere through their powerful energy was very new to me.
My realization is that we women hold the key to our happiness, and the happiness of others around us. What a great responsibility!
Here are some testimonials of men who took the course “Men in Spiritual Culture”:
Goloka Dham – Germany, October 2014
Advitya Baladev Das, Goloka Dham/Germany
This course ‘Men in Spiritual Culture’ opened my eyes to what spiritual culture is actually all about. It should be taken by every devotee in a men’s body and should be included in the Bhakta Program in each ISKCON temple.
Purna Tattva Das, Antwerpen/Belgium
Back to the future!
Devaki Mataji’s course ‘Men in Spiritual Culture’ is indeed wonderful. Although I have read Srila Prabhupada’s books already for 37 years my understanding of the principles of spiritual culture is now greatly extended. Her words are like a magnifying glass giving deep insights into Srila Prabhupada’s words and showing us how we as mankind have deviated from real culture – spiritual culture. We have to turn around and go back to the point where we have deviated. The past is our future – Vedic spiritual culture.
Rama Gopala Das, Gauradesh (Cologne), Germany
Dear Mother Devaki, I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for this deep and wonderful inspiration you have given me. With your two seminars ‘Giving and Accepting Shelter’ and ‘Men in Spiritual Culture’ you have given me great hope in regards to the future of my relationship with Lord Krsna. These two seminars made it easy for me to discover subtle anarthas within my heart, and by the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga I want to transform and uproot them now.
Also I want to beg with sincere heart forgiveness from all the women who I may have disrespected or hurt due to my ignorance, with the desire to transform my attitude and behavior and take blessings from my mothers.
Thank you kindly for this extraordinary gift.
Radha Madhava Das, FFL Vrindavan/India
Devaki Mataji’s course ‘Men in Spiritual Culture’ gave me deep insights into the psychology of men and women. She could very nicely connect it with our process of devotional service and its culture, based on the teachings of Srila Prabhupada – in an amazing and deep way I have never heard before. Therefore this course brought me much closer to Srila Prabhupada and helped me to understand what he is actually saying in his purports in the Bhagavatam.
This course also gave me a great foundation to my dealings, attitude and association with women which will be beneficial for my entire life in Krsna consciousness. The valuable and most important role of women within this society was presented in a most wonderful way.
This course is a ‘must’ for all those devotees who want to get deeper insights into the subtleties of the complicated relationship between men and women, and who want to live it successfully – not only in married life, but in all dealings with the other gender.
Thank you very much, Devaki Mataji, for your wonderful service.
Please keep it up….!
In regards to sadhana – the course gives us a most wonderful foundation to deep and offenseless chanting. Infact, the ultimate goal of spiritual culture is to give us a peaceful mind, stability and harmony in life, so we can get on deeper levels of chanting. This is why I am also conducting Holy Name Retreats in all the countries where I preach. You can get some further info on www.theholynameretreat.net
I would feel excited to one day meet you on one of those retreats – the next one we will have in Ekachakra Dham….!