By Dayananda das
“Material prescribed duties” are simply honest, responsible work.(1) Regarding sva-dharma (prescribed duties), the Gita, Bhagavatam, and Cc all explain dharma and sva-dharma, and their teachings should be coordinated for a good understanding. Krishna and Prabhupada teach that karma-yoga is the preliminary stage of bhakti.(2) For ISKCON followers, karma-yoga means that devotees offer the results of their work, from one to one-hundred percent, to the sankirtana movement. To the extent that they offer their wealth and lives, they are advanced.(3) The Bhagavatam reinforces this point by teaching that whether one’s sva-dharma is material or spiritual it should provoke the glorification of the Supreme.(4) Although temple maintenance and deity worship are all important adjuncts to sankirtana, the essential ISKCON dharma or sva-dharma is sankirtana-yajna,(5) and Mahaprabhu asks us to offer our words, wealth, life and intelligence to sankirtana.(6) He teaches that dharma is established by the mahajanas,(7) and thus our ISKCON dharma is established by Mahaprabhu and Prabhupada.
In Ekendra’s article (http://www.dandavats.com/?p=2584#), his understanding of the tension between one’s material and spiritual sva-dharmas is not adequately developed.(8) The ISKCON process of transcending material sva-dharmas is done by following Mahaprabhu’s and Prabhupada’s instructions to engage in sankirtana-yajna as much as possible. In the Gita, chapter three verses nine to fifteen, Krishna establishes the importance of yajna, and its intimate connection with karma-yoga. Then in chapter four verse thirteen, He states that He has established the four varnas to cooperate for yajna.(9) In verse twenty, He explains that work (for yajna) should be done without attachment to the results, and from twenty-three to thirty-three He launches into a technical discussion of yajnas. Finally, in verse thirty-four, He tells us to accept a guru to learn about yajna.
Thus, based on the dharma and sva-dharma teachings of Gita, Bhagavatam, and Cc, ISKCON gurus and brahmanas should engage everyone in sankirtana-yajna. They should engage householders who dovetail one percent or more, and brahmacaris and sannyasis who give one hundred percent.(10) In other words, whether one is ninety-nine percent engaged in material sva-dharma or zero percent, every ISKCON devotee should engage some percent in the transcendental sva-dharma, which is sankirtana-yajna.
In conclusion, since Prabhupada quantifies a person’s karma-yoga as one to one-hundred percent, it could be argued that ISKCON’s collective remittance to the BBT is an indicator of ISKCON’s karma-yoga–a quantification of the society’s advancement. If so, let’s all work together to increase annual remittances from a paltry $5 million worldwide to the hundreds of millions that they should be. Particularly, those of us who are leaders, brahmanas, and even initiated devotees are responsible (sva-dharma) to work for such results.
(1) ACBS conversation in N.V. 6/26/76, ‘The householders should earn a livelihood by honorable means” Letter to Pusta Krishna 10/29/77, ‘If you feel Maya attracting, then live an honest life as a householder and contribute to our movement.’ ACBS letter to Harikesa 2/1/77 ‘The tendency you report of the householders living at the expense of others in our Society, is not good. One way to earn money is by selling books, they can be given a salary or commission. But if you say that they do not want to do that, yes, they should do some honest work.’ SB
7.14.7 purport, ‘The householders are specifically responsible for seeing that the laws of the Supreme Personality of Godhead are maintained. [‘] As stated in Bhagavad-gita, yajnad bhavati parjanyah [Bg. 3.14]. So that rainfall will be regulated, humanity should perform yajnas, sacrifices.’ SB 2.1.3 lecture Paris
6/12/74, ‘Even formerly, although they were engaged in eating, sleeping, mating, still, they had some responsibility to maintain family. Family means to get one’s self married and take charge of the wife and children and… That is grihastha life.’
(2) BTG, 5/20/56 ‘Yajna’ ‘In the Bhagwad-gita, Krishna recommends that everyone should be engaged in work for the satisfaction of Vishnu. That is the right type of karma or work which leads gradually to the stage of karma-yoga, or the preliminary stage of devotional activities.’
(3) Bg 3.1-5 lecture–L.A. 12/20/68 ‘We should remain in the congested city and preach this Krishna consciousness movement without being affected by this contamination of city life.’ [‘] ‘Link up the results of your work with Krishna. That is called karma-yoga.’ [‘] ‘The more you spend, and the more you become balanceless for spending Krishna, then the more you are benefited. And how one can, unless one is spiritually advanced how he can sacrifice his hard-earned money for Krishna?’ Bg 3.6-10 lecture–L.A. 12/23/68 ‘Devotee means one who has engaged his senses cent percent for the service of the Lord’he is pure devotee.’ [‘] ‘[Rupa Gosvami] showed us the example of how a grihastha should live. Not that out of hundred dollars, ninety-nine percent for my wife, and one percent for Krishna.’ [‘] ‘Anyway, if one cannot sacrifice cent percent, let him sacrifice at least one percent, two percent. The more he does, the more he becomes free from bondage, and the more he uses his earnings for sense gratification, the more he becomes bound by the laws of material nature.’
(4) SB 1.2.3 Man’s sva-dharmas are ‘useless labor if they do not provoke attraction for the message of the Personality of Godhead.’
(5) Cc Adi 3.19 ‘I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age’nama-sankirtana, the congregational chanting of the holy name.’
(6) Cc Adi 9.39, 42 ‘Distribute this Krishna consciousness movement all over the world. Let people eat these fruits and ultimately become free from old age and death.’ [‘] ‘It is the duty of every living being to perform welfare activities for the benefit of others with his life, wealth, intelligence and words.’ Also, Cc Adi 3.78 purport, ‘Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is the father and inaugurator of the sankirtana movement. One who worships Him by sacrificing his life, money, intelligence and words for the sankirtana movement is recognized by the Lord and endowed with His blessings. All others may be said to be foolish, for of all sacrifices in which a man may apply his energy, a sacrifice made for the sankirtana movement is the most glorious.’
(7) Cc Madhya 17.185, ‘A devotee’s behavior establishes the true purpose of religious principles [dharma-stapana-hetu].’ See the purport for the full flavor of this verse.
(8) Ekendra quotes Bg 2.31 purport, but he misses Bg 3.35 purport, ‘Materially, prescribed duties are duties enjoined according to one’s psychophysical condition, under the spell of the modes of material nature. Spiritual duties are as ordered by the spiritual master for the transcendental service of Krishna.’ [‘] ‘..when one transcends the modes of material nature and is fully situated in Krishna consciousness, he can perform anything and everything under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master.’
(9) Light of Bhagavat, verse 21 purport, ‘The intelligent class of men, the brahmanas, are to inspire the kshatriyas and vaisyas in performing sacrifices for spiritual cultivation.’
(10) SB 10.7 purport, ‘The only yajna recommended in this age is sankirtana-yajna. Yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah (SB 11.5.32). Yajna is meant to satisfy Vishnu (yajnarthat karmano ‘nyatra loko ‘yam karma-bandhanah [Bg. 3.9]). Because in this age there are no qualified brahmanas, people should perform yajna by chanting the Hare Krishna mantra (yajnaih sankirtana-prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah). Life is meant for yajna, and yajna is performed by the chanting of Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.’ Note that these are some of Prabhupada’s final words to us.
Website: www.sankirtana-yajna.com
It is very unclear what are the main differences between this article and Ekendra Pr’s previous article. This proposes ‘Sankirtana’ as the means to transcend and Ekendra Pr’s proposes ‘Bhakti Yoga’….
After all the convoluted development of the idea in this article of ‘everyone needs to do books’ (more and more), it appears that both come to the same point… so what is the difference? It seems that some terms have different meaning (or connotations) for both authors, but ‘coincidentally’ the conclusion is the same…. devotional service.
If the word ‘yajna’ was used as much in the previous article, it doesn’t mean that the concept wasn’t there. Obviously Ekendra Pr is giving a social analysis of the link between ‘bhakti’ and ‘varnasrama’ based on Srila Prabhupada’s purports. Dayananda Prabhu is emphasizing on ‘sankirtana’ as the prescribed duties -for everyone-, also based on SP’s statements. However, this approach has a more limited angle, (let’s say for Iskcon members) but a valid one neverhteless.
It would be useful that the authors communicate directly to clarify understandings. For me -as a reader- it still kept me wondering, what is the difference?
Thank you, Dayananda. You have nicely answered my question about material sva-dharma, backed up with authoritative statements. One can earn a living by some honest means (presumably according to one’s natural qualities and abilities), and use the results as far as possible for assisting the sankirtan mission of ISKCON.
When I think about varnasram dharma, one thing I notice about it is that Krishna created this system which is very practical. People engage in honest work and participate in sacrifice according to their qualities and different types of work, and society works nicely:
The basic necessities of rain, sunlight, moonlight, arable land, fuel, precious and useful metals and so on are provided by the demigods. The humans also make good use of these necessities, growing the crops, distributing the necessities of food, shelter, clothing, medical care, and offering them back to God in gratitude. The criminal elements in society are curbed, the necessary roads and damns and so on are built and maintained, the garbage gets disposed of, the fires get put out, and so on. The overall goal is to please Vishnu through acts of sacrifice.
It seems that most of the practical functions are somehow being taken care of in our materialistic civilization (i.e., the production and distribution of wealth, etc.), but because the goal is not sacrifice (sankirtan), the situation is precarious.
There is no fixed goal in modern society. They do not know that the goal of life, whether individually or collectively, is to please Hari. A man will work and try to provide security for his family, and then he will spend his leisure time watching pointless TV shows and movies or engaged in frivolous sports for entertainment.
Also, much of the work is not “honest.” There is a huge industry of meat production from factory farms torturing the poor animals, and other huge industries for intoxication (big distribution of alcoholic beverages and other drugs), illicit sex (from hard core pornography and actual prostitution to the other pornography that pervades our entertainment, advertising and information complex which bhakta Allen Ginsburg dubbed “the consciousness industry”), and gambling (from casinos and card rooms and sports gambling to state sponsored lotteries and even highly-speculative “investment” schemes).
The saving grace for the whole system is sankirtan yajna. We can see in the temples where devotees are going out regularly for book distribution and harinama how the entire atmosphere becomes very blissful and enlivened. The devotees become very happy and “bright-faced”. Sankirtan gives us all a proper use for our spare time and a proper way to engage our hard-earned money.
I vaguely remember a story about how there was a big drought or something when Srila Prabhupada was young, and then some sadhus organized a massive sankirtan festival and the rains came.
Similarly, today the earth is beset with problems, from global warming and pollution to nuclear arms races and terrorist threats (not to mention anxieties caused by the U.S.-led war in Iraq and fears of a belligerent and unilateralist U.S. superpower.)
We can help alleviate the burdens of the earth by organizing mass sankirtan festivals.
Here in San Jose, even though we are a small temple with no brahmacari ashram and no full-time temple devotees, we have at least one weekend sankirtan festival per month. (We had two in December) We go out for a big harinama street chanting on Friday night (with a nice book table on display), and then on Saturday and Sunday we get as many devotees as possible out on book distribution.
(This is all due to the powerful influence of Vaisesika dasa).
We do not emphasize big individual scores. We do emphasize leaving everyone we meet with a good impression.
The system works nicely, and in this way householders are becoming very attached to going out on sankirtan. Parents bring their families out too, and in this way there is a nice outing for the whole family.
Anyway, I am glad Dayananda is continuing to speak out about this point. We know this is our mission, the highest welfare work.
H.H. Kesava Bharati Swami was speaking about this at last night’s Sunday feast: Krishna has everything and is not in want of anything, but some of His unlimited parts and parcels (jivas) are engaged in trying to exploit His external energy and are thus suffering like anything. Krishna wants to wake them up, and He is engaging us in this compassionate activity, which is good for them and good for us too.
The Vaisnavas are para duhkha duhkhi, and thus they want us to distribute these books to all corners of the world. Everyone should become familiar with Bhagavad Gita and with chanting the Maha Mantra. We should use whatever resources we can spare (our surrender can be measured by how much we use) for assisting in this sankirtan.
You’re welcome, Akruranatha Prabhu and thank you immensely for your moral support, and your recent postings emphasizing sankirtana.
In New York for the last six months, we have also followed Vasesika’s lead, and started to engage our congregations in the Monthly Festival program. After years of neglect, many of our householders are spoiled or untrained; however, they are gradually stepping forward. Moreover, as soon as more householders do volunteer, we hope to engage them in standard sales prospecting, home visits to sell sets, and follow-up knowledge services. (1-2-3) The key here is “knowledge services.” Vaish and I have discussed this for three years. If we can package services with Bhagavatam and Cc sets, we can sell them for premium prices, rather than cheapening them, as is the current trend. The ISKCON precedent for such an approach is Prabhupada’s life membership, by which he originally intended to sell his sets along with “temple devotee association” services, or in plain terms, guest house services.
Operating a services business is difficult, but even more difficult in ISKCON. I find that ironic, since devotional service is supposed to be our basic theme.
ys, d
Iksvaku,
Yes, I emphasized yajna, or sankirtana-yajna, as the core of varnasrama. In a few of my postings on dandavats.com, I’ve argued, citing Prabhupada, that ISKCON devotees should emphasize sankirtana-yajna as the foundation for varnasrama.
Regarding Ekendra’s use of the term bhakti-yoga, devotees often use the terms bhakti-yoga and Krishna consciousness in a broad generic way, and they assume these terms are well defined, but they are not necessarily so within the context of a particular presentation. Therefore, I use the term karma-yoga which is the preliminary stage of bhakti, and which is closely linked to sankirtana-yajna. For householders, karma-yoga means offering their hard earned money to the sankirtana movement. This fact escapes some in ISKCON, because some of ISKCON’s teachers place emphasis on sadhana-bhakti-yoga while ignoring karma-yoga.
You’ve written, “Dayananda Prabhu is emphasizing on ’sankirtana’ as the prescribed duties -for everyone-, also based on SP’s statements. However, this approach has a more limited angle, (let’s say for Iskcon members) but a valid one neverhteless.” I’m not sure what you mean by “limited angle.” Do you really mean to say that sankirtana is limited? What do you mean? What I mean is that someone can say, “bhakti-yoga,” but I am saying that sankirtana is the specific means through which we in ISKCON approach bhakti-yoga. Mahaprabhu and Prabhupada established sankirtana as our religion. Sankirtana embodies the first three processes–hearing, chanting, remembering–and in ISKCON sankirtana is supported by the other the six. (Refer to the nine processes defined by Prahlada Maharaja [SB 7.5.23-24].)
With affection, d
Reporter: Does “surrender” mean that someone would have to leave his family ?
Srila Prabhupada: No.
Reporter: But suppose I were to become an initiate. Wouldn’t I have to come and live in the temple ?
Srila Prabhupada: Oh, yes.
Reporter: What about Work ? Would I have to give up job ?
Srila Prabhupada: No, you’d simply have to give up your bad habits and chant the Hare Krsna mantra on these beads – that’s all.
Reporter: Would I have to give any financial support.
Srila Prabhupada: No, that is your voluntary wish. If you give, that’s all right. And if you don’t, we don’t mind. We do not depend on anyone’s financial contribution. We depend on Krsna.
Reporter: I wouldn’t have to give any money at all ?
Srila Prabhupada: No.
There is a major contradiction in Prabhupada’s statement here and the article’s insistence that giving our money to ISKCON for book distribution is a step on the path to bhakti.
Cbrahma Prabhu:
IMHO, the interview you quoted does not contradict the obviously true proposition that giving money to ISKCON preaching projects is a step on the path to bhakti.
Srila Prabhupada was only stressing to the reporter that giving of money is voluntary. (We generally do not charge people for bhakti yoga “lessons” or for attending kirtan “performances” as other groups do).
“If you don’t give, we don’t mind.” We do not depend on your financial contribution. That is true.
(Temple managers and other leaders should be careful not to commit themselves to big expensive projects that make our temples unduly dependent on obtaining large amounts of money, draining resources away from the important preaching work of getting our devotees out there to greet the public with books in their hands and smiles on their faces. If we are always begging only for money and more money, we will not make a good impression.)
Mainly, we are *giving*, constantly *giving*: “Please take this book, please chant this mantra, please worship Krishna, let me give you answers to your questions as I have heard through disciplic succession from those who really know, the answers are in these books, let me show you where Krishna (or Sukadeva, or Kapila, or Narada Muni)answers that question.”
We do not spend a lot on advertising and have not yet become very good at staying favorably in the media limelight (these days, if you are not on television, you do not exist). Maybe we can improve on getting some attractive billboards up or have signs about Bhagavad Gita on the public buses.
Still, our best form of advertising is to go out and greet the public in person, as often as possible, not for collecting money (with flowers, stickers, candy or other paraphernalia), but for propogating real spiritual awareness of Krishna, presenting these authorized books which are themselves worshipable Deities of Krishna.
It is not that Krishna needs anything from us, but we need to offer Him everything. We need to reestablish our connection with Him as His servants, His devotees, His property.
Krishna definitely advises us to give all the results of our work to Him, for our own benefit.
Mayi sarvani karmani sannyasyadhyatma cetasa. . . (BG 3.30). Yat karosi yad asnasi yaj juhosi .. . tat karusva mad arpanam (BG 7.27) Mat karma-krn mat-paramo. . . (BG 11.55)
As Srila Prabhupada has written in his Bhaktivedanta Purport to BG 12.10: “One should be sympathetic to the propagation of Krishna consciousness. There are many devotees who are engaged in the propagation of Krishna consciousness, and they require help. So, even if one cannot directly practice the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga, he can try to help such work. Every endeavor requires land, capital, organization and labor. Just as in business one requires a place to stay, some capital to use, some labor and some organization to expand, so the same is required in the service of Krishna. * * * If one cannot sacrifice the results of his activities, the same person can still sacrifice some percentage to propagate Krishna consciousness. This voluntary service to the cause of Krishna consciousness will help one rise to a higher state of love for God, whereupon one becomes perfect.”
Srila Prabhupada frequently encouraged the voluntary giving of donations. In fact, he has frequently written and stated that his householder disciples should give 50% of their income to support the preaching mission.
Thus, the idea that giving the fruits of our labor to help spread Krishna consciousness can help us make spiritual advancement should not be controversial in the slightest. We should all be convinced of this.
Thanks again Dayananda for bringing this important point to the forefront.
cbrahma, you’ve written, “There is a major contradiction in Prabhupada’s statement here and the article’s insistence that giving our money to ISKCON for book distribution is a step on the path to bhakti.”
When there are differences in sastra, then both statements are accepted. I’m not going to go into too much detail in my response, because I already quoted statements about giving wealth in footnotes (3) and (6).
You are not alone in presenting questions about the importance of the 50% principle, or even the general principle of giving money. For example, an apparent contradiction might arise from this Bhagavatam statement: “The personality of Kali, by the directions of Maharaja Pariksit was allowed to live in those five places.” (SB 1.17.40) The five places are meat eating, illicit sex, gambling, intoxication, and accumulation of money. In his purport two verses later, Prabhupada speaks of the 50% principle in association with these five places. Therefore, one might question why Prabhupäda didn’t introduce five regulative principles.
The short answer is that giving money is a matter of householder training along with relationships with gurus and brahmanas. When Prabhupada trained his householders as their guru and as a brahmana, he asked them to give 50%, and they did so based on relationship, and his skill in offering that discipline. Giving 50% is not a part of the viddhi (basic principles), because it is a more advanced stage.
In any case, if someone does not have the honest desire to reconcile these apparent differences, and without feeling a strong connection and commitment to Mahaprabhu and Prabhupada, one may not feel commitment enough to donate a significant part of his or her income. That poses the question of how one might advance in karma-yoga or bhakti-yoga as a householder. For the answer to that, I would refer to the two lectures I quoted in footnote (3) in their entirety.
From practical experience, I was able to give 50% because of the following: As a newly initiated householder, I read chapter 1.17 of the Bhagavatam, and decided that giving is a kind of fifth regulative principle. Most important, however, was that Prabhupada regularly asked me how much I was making and how much I was giving. For reinforcement, I attended and was motivated by the two lectures referred to in footnote (3) as well as a number of similar ones.
With affection, ys, d
Dayananda Pr,
Thanks for your reply.
My question was basically ‘what is the difference between the two articles?’.
In your answer you argue that ‘ devotees often use the terms bhakti-yoga and Krishna consciousness in a broad generic way’ without defining such broad generic misconstruction of the term.
It could also be said that ‘bhakti yoga’ (with all its ‘preliminary stages’) it is most broad and could include many situations in which an individual is potentially ‘on its way’ towards bhakti. Sri Krishna presents such broad approach at the end of Bg, chpt 12 and in other places. I don’t find the concept of Bhakti been miscontructed in Ekendra Pr’s article. It seems that you perceived it like that and took it as a ‘scapegoat’ to counteract whatever other distortions some devotees may have.
It simple words; the difference is not presented clearly, the consequent argument seems blurry, the further it is develop the more difficult it gets to see the difference. It seems that it is clear in your mind but it is not so in the article.
When I say ‘a more limited angle’, obviously I do not mean that ‘sankirtana is limited’, but rather your presentation in comparison with how Ekendra Pr presents his view. I do agree with your conviction about sankirtan but the way that you develop your point, particularly in apparent contradiction with the previous article does not match up. It is based on the assumption that Ekendra Pr is misinterpreting ‘bhakti yoga’. Before addressing his view there is a need to clearly explain where it is wrong.
In any case, congratulations for your enthusiasm about sankirtan, this is more a matter of plain confusion of semantics.
Ys, Id
Why doesn’t ISKCON optimize this “primarily books” principle and just become a book publishing/retailing corporation. It seems maintaing temples is an unnecessary overhead.
Iksvaku,
You’ve miscontrued the tension between my direction and Ekendra’s. Ekendra is not wrong. I’m arguing for a different shade of grey. ISKCON is a big ship and devotees often argue for it to be steered differently. I’ve long valued ISKCON’s leadership, the brahmanas, and the average devotees along with their perspectives and contributions. Having said that, I do have strong opinions about the philosophical and strategic perceptions of some, and I hope that airing my perspectives might provoke interest in changing direction. I’m a pragmatist, and not a dictator. Thus, although I do not appreciate it when my perspectives are dismissed out of hand, they certainly should not be accepted without critical analysis. Nevertheless, I do hope to contribute to adjustments in ISKCON’s direction, but not radical adjustments.
Regarding my inability to communicate ideas, you may be right in saying that. I take considerable time to construct each of my postings; however, not everyone may understand my points and I accept that as my fault. Akruranath, if you are reading this, I would deeply appreciate if you would evaluate the effectiveness of my communications from your perspective (either here or offline).
Iksvaku, I have something to learn in my exchanges with every devotee, and I appreciate your comments.
With affection, ys, d
cbrahma,
I’m resigned to agree to a stalemate with you. I can only say that ISKCON is Prabhupada’s first priority; book distribution his close second.
I could say more, but am reminded of the story of the monkeys and the birds from Pancatantra. The birds had built protective, thatched nests that sheltered them from a violent storm. After the storm, they suggested to a group of monkeys, who greatly suffered from the hail and driving rain, that they too should build nests. The monkeys simply got angry at the audacity of the birds–that they had the gall to advise them–and tore up the birds’ nests.
ys, d
I am following the discussion and will write more later. I am due for a court appearance right now and must complete a brief this evening. Therefore I am giving only quick, sketchy responses here:
I think Dayananda is doing a good job communicating an important point, and with further friendly discussions all these points can be further clarified.
Cbrahma may be unnecessarily combative or sarcastic regarding closing temples.
Actually, though, I think book distribution is at least as important as opening temples. I would say more important, because the book distribution can go on without the temples (we could meet in each others’ homes), but the temples cannot really go on without book distribution and harinama sankirtan.
Srila Prabhupada’s BBT formula was to spend 50% on opening new centers and 50% on printing more books. Some leaders have tended to ignore this and spend more on the temples than the books, which is a big mistake.
Srila Prabhupada sometimes said our temples should be like bases of operation from which book distribution goes forth.
Opening new temples or expanding existing temples should be done only after very careful consideration of the overall strategy for how to promote Krishna consciousness in the area. It should be done to support the book distribution, and should not be done at the expense of book distribution. Otherwise, the temples may have difficulty maintaining themselves or making new devotees, they will become a “burden” and will close, there will be no more “hari hari bol”. Srila Prabhupada warned us about this.
I agree with Iksvaku that further discussion of the differences between Ekendra’s position and Dayananda’s can be useful. I never understood Ekendra and Dayananda to be in serious conflict: Dayananda just wanted to emphasize a different point.
For that reason, I think it was proper for Dayananda to start a new thread. Besides, Dayananda has such important things to say, I think he should write many primary articles, rather than just commenting on other articles.
Ekendra seemed to be emphasizing that devotees should stick to their material duties according to varna and asrama while performing bhakti yoga.
(I mentioned that I have a hard time understanding what my material duties according to varna and asrama are)
I agree with both Ekendra and Dayananda’s points.
At least, we can say that although Lord Caitanya approved abandoning varnasrama duties for the sake of bhakti (e.g., in the talks between Ramananda Raya and the Lord, abandoning varnasrama for bhakti was a higher principle than performing varnasrama duties for satisfying the Lord), that is certainly a higher level than I am functioning at.
It is important IMHO that devotees should know their own level of advancement (i.e., how free they are from material desire and how attached they are to Krishna consciousness), and should act accordingly. Their goals should be to get to the next step, rather than to try to jump ahead (say, making a pretence of bhava while still being under the sway of material desires)
I understood Ekendra to be making this important point: we should continue to be moral people, performing our duties under varnasrama, not artificially pretending to be beyond ordinary morality because we are advanced bhaktas. Some of us (like myself) are not that advanced.
For example, only a brahmana is supposed to receive charity. If a devotee is unable to really come to the brahminical platform, but still maintains his or her household by collecting charity under false pretenses, then uses the collected money for material sense enjoyment, that is immoral. There will be karmic reactions.
Dayananda nicely answered my question about material duties. Basically, I do not need to worry about whether I am a sudra, vaisya or whatever. I should make an honest living and be a generally moral person, and as far as possible I should support Srila Prabhupada’s sankirtan mission.
The whole point of the varnasrama system is to satisfy Vishnu. (samsiddhir hari tosanam). Ekendra and Dayananda agree on this.
Dayananda’s perspective is that the varnasrama system accomplishes this through directing all society toward sacrifice. The sacrifice for this age is the congragational chanting of the Maha Mantra. The BBT is also the “brhad mrdanga” and distribution of Prabhupada’s books is the primary basis of our sankirtan in ISKCON. (books are the basis)
So, if we really want to talk about varnasrama, we have to recognize that the four varnas and four asramas should all be cooperating to engage in sankirtan yajna, especially book distribution.
Dayananda is right that too often we neglect that point.
Getting hung up in details about social behavior of the different varnas may be less important than the purpose, which is to carry out the sankirtan yajna.
(Srila Prabhupada did not instruct us to perform vedic fire yajnas–our yajna is sankirtan)
I thought Dayananda’s point was very effectively made, but more discussion is appropriate.
I want to see Dayananda and other senior Prabhupada disciples explaining Srila Prabhupada’s emphasis on book distribution. I remember Srila Prabhupada always pushing this point, so I am a little concerned that Cbrahma seems opposed to it.
But maybe that is just the nature of internet discussions sometimes. I know I am a big faultfinder, and that tendency can get magnified even more when blogging. Please Cbrahma, do not take any offence at my words above. I am sure we can all have a very useful and important discussion regarding the importance of book distribution in ISKCON, without quarreling.
I would especially like Dayananda to further discuss (if he is comfortable doing so) Srila Prabhupada’s instructions to him as a householder who had a job. That is a topic that really interests me.
obeisances to all here.
All glories to His Divine Grace.
I just got back online after shifting house. i didn’t even know that my article was posted here. I put that article on www.gopala.org along with the other essays I wrote for the bhakti-sastri course. Dayananda Prabhu wrote:
I’m all ears here. I never claimed to be an expert on these subjects and I never asked for my article to be published in a forum such as this. I DO appreciate you pointing out that the sva-dharma has to be aimed at sacrifice as I don’t think I emphasised this enough in the original article.
In any case thanks to all for their association.
ys, ekendra das
Dayananda Pr:
PAMHO AGTSP
Thank you again for taking the time to answer and particularly in a polite, respectful and yes,… humble way.
It is improper for me to ‘question’ senior devotees in their presentations. I am sorry if I came across the wrong way. I was interested in the ‘social’ angle of Ekendra Pr’s article (since I’m doing Social Studies)… anything in that line attracts my attention. Your article brought quite a pragmatic and a bit radical ‘approach’ to the discussion; that everyone should support sankirtana and ‘things will be alright’. Although at first it sounded somewhat abrupt, after following the thread it is clearer what are the main points; devotional service (from Ekendra’s article), and specifically this has to be ‘translated’ into supporting book distribution (from your writings). Did I get it right this time?
All along I presented my question regarding the difference between the two articles since I did not spot them at first sight. Now -from your explanations- things seem clearer.
Surprisingly, and apart from the topic of leadership and temples’ existence, I felt very inspired by this discussion since it goes around book distribution, which was close to Prabhupada’s heart. No questions asked.
These exchanges have made me think the value of SP’s books and the importance in trying to assist his mission. It reminds me the spirit of ‘the old days’ ( I joined in the early 8Os) when books where the focal point…. (In my temple for a few years at least).
You are right we shall all get back to the understanding that by assisting Prabhupada’s mission of increasing book distribution things will improve in society and “everything will be like Vaikuntha” (Srila Prabhupada).
Thank you very much, dandavats…
Humbly, your servant,
Iksvaku dasa
Dear Ekendra prabhu,
I hope your not too upset with us for publishing your article. As it was in the public domain and as editors we appreciated it very much we thought it would be good if the Dandavats readers were able to get the benefit of it.
If you like in future we can check with you first before posting anything of yours, even if it already is in the public domain.
Again apologies for any inconveniences.
Your servant, Praghosa dasa.
I want to properly thank Cbrahma for inspiring further discussion. These threads seem to need a little leavening, in the form of controversy.
I have noticed that sometimes a nice article is posted and it is so uncontroversial that no one discusses it. Without further discussion, the ideas expressed in the original article die on the vine before they can be fully developed and explained more expansively from different angles.
Sometimes a little controversy inspires more fruitful discussions. (I only hope we can keep the controversy within limits so that no devotees’ feelings are hurt).
Cbrahma’s statements may be like the grain of sand that causes the oyster of Dayananda to produce more pearls of spiritual wisdom.
I hope he takes no offence at me saying this. I really do appreciate his contribution.
One important point about Ekendra’s original article is, if we are going to keep performing our duties according to varna and asrama while practicing sadhana bhakti, it means we have to be good people.
Srila Prabhupada often did not emphasise material morality. Sometimes he said that if someone can become a devotee, then automatically they will exhibit all good qualities (yasyasti bhaktir bhagavaty akincina . . . )
[Therefore, ISKCON does not expend energy making separate propaganda for vegetarianism or against alcohol and drugs, pornography, etc. There is no need, because if people’s hearts are turned in devotion to Krishna they will automatically become vegetarian and give up intoxication and illicit sex.]
Even though devotees will undoubtedly quickly become perfectly moral people by practicing bhakti yoga (kshipram bhavati dharmatma sasvac-chantim nigacchati . . . BG 9.31), it might help our preaching mission to give a little training in manners and common courtesy (which might be seen as part of varnasrama dharma–i.e., to behave properly in all respects according to one’s position in society and relation with others.)
Real “kindness to all jivas” is sankirtan, inasmuch as the world is suffering and gliding toward hell due to a lack of the information about Krishna and His devotional service found in Srila Prabhupada’s books.
Devotees are “sarva-bhuta-hite ratah” (always busily engaged in working for the welfare of all beings), and the ultimate welfare work is sankirtan (“para upakara”).
But sometimes the success of the sankirtan mission could be hampered by our still rough manners in our immature stage.
Not that having nice, refined manners is an end in itself, but it can be part of our sankirtan “craft” to learn how to be charming, considerate ladies and gentlemen, so that whenever someone encounters an ISKCON devotee they think, “what special, wonderful people those Hare Krishnas are.”
The public should see practically how devotees are acquiring all the good qualities of the demigods (. . . sarvair gunas tatra samasate surah)
It is more than just “craft”, because observing proper etiquette is part of sadhana bhakti, too. Especially with the other devotees, we should see that all these vaisnavas are very special people and treat each other accordingly. (krishneti yasya giritan manasadriteya…)
Then, when a newcomer visits our temple, they will be blown away by seeing how respectfully and lovingly the devotees all relate to one another and how happy everyone is. I am not talking about an artificial imposition of some rules, but we should really be overflowing with these nice feelings for the other devotees.
When we go out on street sankirtan together, those transcendental qualities of our interpersonal relations should also be evident. It is very attractive, and it inspires people to come over to our book table to see “what we’ve got”. They can tell we’ve got something special.
Kesava Bharati Goswami was saying in Bhagavad Gita class last night (paraphrasing) that Srila Prabhupada instructed that when someone comes to an ISKCON temple they should feel that they have entered Vaikuntha. All the sights, sounds, smells, high standards of deity worship, cleanliness, sumptuous prasadam, and spirit of hospitality to our guests and loving dealings with each other should totally captivate the heart of the visitor. If we can function at that standard, then we can prosecute the sankirtan mission very effectively.
Sometimes we fall short of the mark. A visitor to the temple may see dirty socks on the doorstep, or kaupina hanging up to dry in the bathroom. They may come to the temple and not be greeted warmly, or an unhappy devotee may (God forbid) be rude to them, or may be quarreling with another devotee. In this way, the vaikuntha atmosphere will be less apparent.
So, an important part of Ekendra’s original article is that, whether as “sadhana bhakti” or as ordinary morality (varnasrama dharma), the devotees have to be considerate, conscious of everyone’s feelings (no less so for those of other ashram residents than for guests), and very clean and polite, neatly groomed and dressed, and “first class” in all respects.
We should not think, “I am doing bhakti yoga, I am above such considerations.” Even if you are doing bhakti yoga, Krishna commands you to observe these rules of ordinary morality and etiquette. That was one thing I got from Ekendra’s article.
I do not see it in conflict with Dayananda’s emphasis on preaching (preaching is the essence), because our sankirtan yajna will not be as successfully accomplished if we are not mindful of the principle that devotees should generally be first-class moral people.
Sometimes devotees equate discussion of varnasram dharma with economic development, or how we earn our living. Of course it is a much bigger topic than that.
Some focus on setting an example of how people can live a less sinful, more natural way of life in self-sufficient, pollution free spiritual farm communities, separate from the materialistic civilization. That is certainly laudable, and we must do something to stress the importance of cow protection and “simple living”. Srila Prabhupada did approve and encourage such rural projects.
However, if devotee householders can earn an honest living in the city and use some percentage of the fruits for supporting sankirtan, that is also very worthwhile. We should not discourage it if it is right for a specific devotee.
Obviously, a devotee should not be a bank robber, drug dealer, or run a liquor shop, steakhouse or brothel, but there is no harm in being a doctor, an engineer, or even a factory worker who gives some percentage of income (ideally 50%) to support the preaching mission.
(Every occupation is covered by some fault, and modern doctors may use drugs that have been developed by animal research or are taken in gelatin capsules, or whatever. Maybe they can provide vegetarian options for the benefit of devotees… Anyway, all these activities can be purified by donating to support ISKCON’s preaching.)
When we have to attend college, get jobs, satisfy relatives and so on, we learn lessons about how to be decent people in a fully functioning society. Those lessons can be applied in how we execute more direct devotional activities, such as how we interact with people on book distribution or other devotional engagements. Maybe we are being prepared in a way for better preaching later on.
Obviously, if a man can remain a brahmacari and spend his full time favorably in direct Krishna conscious activities (book distribution, pujari, temple cleaning or adminsiatration), so much the better.
But if he is not on that level of freedom from material desires he should not artificially be pushed to make a false show of renunciation. Being a good husband and father and an upstanding pillar of the community while practicing Krishna consciousness and instructing others about Krishna’s teachings to the best of one’s capacity can also lead to complete perfection.
Being a phony renunciate, always striving and failing against the strong force of one’s own material nature, pretending to be on a different level than we actually are, accomplishes little and may even give ISKCON a bad reputation. “Better an honest street sweeper than a charlatan yogi.”
[Srila Prabhupada almost always disapproved of his disciples going off to chant in a secluded place. Sometimes he became furious upon learning that a disciple had without his approval tried to make a show of “nirjana bhajana”. I am unaware of Srila Prabhupada ever approving it, except I heard a rumor that once he gave “babaji” initiation to a terminally-ill disciple. Upendra Prabhu told me that once when he was going through a rough patch Srila Prabhupada lovingly instructed him to just go to Vrndavana and study his books, but in his humble, sincere way Upendra regretfully told me he did not follow the instruction.]
Realistically, most of us will for some time find our “bhakti” is mixed with karma and jnana. Few of us are going to quickly exhibit “uttama bhakti” (anyabhilasita sunyam jnana karmady anavrttam). It is a gradual process. Sure, it is “simple for the simple,” but how many of us are really that simple?
Some of us will remain practicing karma yoga (which is a preliminary kind of devotional service), doing our regular activities but trying to offer the fruits to Krishna by making donations of money to ISKCON and trying to see Krishna as the proprietor of our homes, families, minds. This may be the proper engagement for many of us according to our own level of advancement. As Ekendra pointed out, even advanced devotees may do this to set a good example.
Gradually, by giving money to ISKCON projects, by serving the advanced, brahminical devotees and the preaching mission (such as going out for weekend book distribution, volunteering to clean or paint or repair the temple, etc.), by engaging in japa and kirtan, trying to be attentive and avoid the ten offenses, studying Srila Prabhupada’s books and attending classes, we will eventually be promoted to full-time spiritual duties in bhakti yoga. We have to hanker for it.
One might reasonably ask, if material activities are pointless and Krishna will supply all the necessities of life to a fully surrendered devotee, why should anyone bother going to school, getting a job, raising a family, etc.?
The answer is that nature is forcing us to do all those things, whether we like it or not, but Krishna has arranged the world in such a way that we can do them and please Him at the same time. He does not want us to sit on our duffs and have Him supply our necessities. He wants us to convince the whole world to take up this yuga dharma of Lord Caitanya’s sankirtan movement, and show that it is practical for everyone in any stage of advancement.
Krishna does not want us to do nirjana bhajan. He did not want Arjuna to go to the forest and live by begging. He actually wanted Arjuna to kill the Kauravas, including even Bhisma, Drona and the other great personalities. “Mam anusmara yudhya ca”
To be self realized does not mean to become inactive, but to act according to Krishna’s desires (as a spirit soul), and to see the material urges of the mind and senses for what they are, i.e., temporary products of our gross and subtle material bodies, which are external coverings.
When one engages all the senses in active service to Krishna, the senses become automatically controlled, and any urges to engage the senses in material activities become insignificant and easy to tolerate, when we are full in realization that we are not these bodies and minds and deeply satisfied by dint of our proper connection to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
The expert horseman does not jerk the reins but lets the horse go for a moment in the direction it wants while gradually bringing the horse back under control. Similarly, we need to carefully observe the movements and desires of our own minds and gradually bring them under full control. (See, S.B. 11.20.21) This may involve engaging in some material occupational duties, and there is no shame in doing so.
Krishna wants us to be properly situated and not to try to act in a way that is not appropriate to our actual level of realization. If we are householders, he does not want us to abandon our duties to our family in an immature stage, and then later find we want to associate again with women (which is most abominable for one who has taken vows of renunciation).
We need to give due consideration to satisfying our relatives. (When Sri Rupa Goswami took sannyas he gave 25% of his wealth to family members as an example that we should not abandon such duties.)
Lord Caitanya would not even let Raghunatha Das take sannyas at first. He sent Raghunatha home where he expertly performed some diplomatic activity to save his uncle and father from political calamity. Lord Caitanya said, “Don’t be a crazy fellow”. He gave the example that a woman with a paramour performs her duties to her husband very perfectly (so he will not suspect anything), but in her heart she is thinking, “when will I see my lover?”
Of course, the varnasrama system is that a boy from about 5 – 25 years old should be properly trained as a brahmacari so that one has sufficient sense control and a foundation in spiritual life to execute the duties of the other asramas properly. ISKCON should definitely continue striving to provide good training for full-time brahmacari devotees.
Anyway, these are perhaps just a jumble of random thoughts related to the issue of “the relationship of bhakti and varnasrama” as expressed by both Ekendra and Dayananda, but I hope they are somewhat relevant to the discussion and could promote further discussion.
I appreciate Ekendra’s discussion of karma yoga and bhakti yoga in terms of the first six chapters of the Gita.
(I have heard it said, the first six chapters deal primarily with karma yoga, and the last six with jnana yoga, with bhakti yoga, the confidential heart of the Gita, being expressed in Chapters 7-12, protected on either side by the other sections. That may be an oversimplification of what Srila Prabhupada explains, for example in his purports to BG 12.20 and 13.1-2)
I also very much appreciate Dayananda’s insight that how we can practice karma yoga involves a special recognition of Srila Prabhupada’s desire that we propagate Krishna consciousness and somehow try to assist in that sankirtan mission, which is based on book distribution.
It is Lord Caitanya’s “sankirtan movement,” after all. Param vijayate Sri Krishna sankirtanam!
In this stream, comment 12, Akruranatah Prabhu has suggested that devotees displaying bhava are doing so artificially if they still have anarthas, or material desires. This is a misundertanding of the process. It is by the fire of the flames of ecstasy that the last vestiges of material desires are burned up. Bhava occurs, by Sri Krsna’s mercy, BEFORE the devotee has necessarily completely purified their mentality. We all have experience of ecstatic states which encouraged and purified us, and this is the process, not that one cannot experience love of Godhead until one is cent per cent pure. It is a question of degree, also, however. Bhava has preliminary and advanced stages.
Ekendra, as I mentioned to Iksvaku, I did not mean to say that anything in your article was wrong; however, my intent was to introduce another prespective. Please continue to write, and I for one will appreciate it.
Cbrahma, my last response to you was a little harsh, and it should not have been. Akruranatha covered for me on that, but I should mention that I agree with him. We have these discussions to air our differences and perspectives. I hit the enter key too quickly on my posting to you. In the future, I welcome your comments regardless of whether they appeal to my ego.
To the broader group of readers, I’d like to point out a couple of articles I wrote.
One was about Vaisesika and ISV (ISKCON Silicon Valley). http://www.dandavats.com/?p=182. The latest news about Vaish is that his group, of which Akruranatha is a part, came in fifth in North America in 2006 BBT remittances by using a radical new method. They (Vaish) mobilized 40 members in their congregation to set up tables and have mini-festivals once a month throughout the S.F. Bay area. Using a strategy of “many hands make light work” they doubled their BBT remittances–this year’s over last year’s. Believe it or not, that’s radical and controversial in ISKCON! I’ve spoken to many ISKCON devotees–from top to bottom (administratively)–who are sitting, waiting for more brahmacaris in order to have a resurgence in book distribution. Why wait? Let us do it, ourselves–everyone doing a little bit. If you are already doing some distribution, then turn to your neighbor devotee and convince her or him, too. If you don’t want to distribute, go out with someone who does and keep them company, and maybe chant a little. If you don’t want to go out, drive someone who does. If you don’t want to drive, well you get the idea…
The other article is on Krishna conscious family values. http://www.dandavats.com/?p=2592. Based on Akruranatha Prabhu’s request, I may post another family article that I wrote about the 50% principle.
Thus ends my postings on this thread.
Here’s a link to the Purusa Sukta (Rig Veda, mandala 10, sukta 90), which describes the original universal yajna. (http://www.sankirtana-yajna.com/purusa-sukta/index.htm) If you have broadband, listen to the chanting–beautiful. When we go on sankirtana, we connect with that ancient, primeval yajna of creation. We serve Krishna. We satisfy Mahaprabhu and Prabhupada. We purify ourselves. Moreover, aside from all that lofty stuff, we have fun. Don’t we Akruranatha Prabhu?
Tamohara makes a good point in comment #19. I remember reading one purport (I think it is in the Gita, but I cannot find it now), where Srila Prabhupada says that even a neophyte can experience ecstatic symptoms by chanting the holy names (or words to that effect).
In chapter 13 of Nectar of Devotion, Srila Prabhupada quotes Rupa Goswami as stating that the five kinds of devotional activities — residing in Mathura, worshiping the Deity, reciting Srimad Bhagavatam, serving a devotee, and chanting the Hare Krishna mantra — are so potent that a small attachment for any one of them can arouse devotional ecstacy even in a neophyte.
Sometimes Krishna gives a beginning devotee special mercy, appearing to that devotee to give an impetus for seriously applying himself or herself to sadhana bhakti.
In the First Canto, Narada Muni related to Vyasa a story of such a “sphurti” appearance of the Lord, when he told his “how I came to Krishna consciousness” story. Narada saw Krishna in his meditation, but then his meditation broke and he felt distressed by the separation. He could not by any mechanical means get that vision back (Krishna appears by His own sweet will).
Then, Krishna’s voice explained to Narada that he was not yet qualified to see Krishna, and would not see Him again in that lifetime. It gave Narada’s practice of bhakti yoga a keener edge, as having once seen Krishna he was very eager to achieve complete success.
The intent of my statement in comment #12 was that devotees who are not steadily on the platform of ecstatic love, as described in Chapter 18 of NOD, must still be careful to practice the regulative principles.
Even further, I was saying in #12 that devotees who may not even be steady in vaidhi bhakti can still participate in ISKCON according to their capacity (e.g., by giving money or telling people they know how nice Krishna consciousness is).
It is important for us to acknowledge and understand that devotees are on different levels of advancement and act accordingly. Even devotees who are unwilling or unable to follow the four regs or chant 16 rounds should still be engaged according to their capacity (i.e., they may work for Krishna, or give the fruits of their work to support the propagation of Krishna consciousness).
We should not make such devotees feel unwelcome or despised, and for their part they should have great respect for the devotees who are strictly following the regulative principles. They should not be permitted to discourage more serious devotees or to dampen the high standards in the temples and ashramas.
[I want to explore more this theme of the relation of those who are not following all the regulative principles or chanting all their rounds and how they can be engaged, e.g. in the life membership program.]
My limited understanding of NOD (please, advanced devotees, enlighten me further), is that devotees generally go through a preliminary stage of sadhana bhakti (devotional service in practice), which is divided into two divisions of (1) vaidhi bhakti (following regulations on the order of the guru even if there is no attraction) and (2) raganuga bhakti (following regulations with spontaneous attraction).
The raganuga stage is still part of sadhana bhakti. That is clear from the Nectar of Devotion.
Beyond the stage of devotional service in practice under regulations, there is devotional service in ecstacy (bhava). In chapter 17 of NOD Srila Prabhupada writes that at this stage one is on the platform of uttama adhikari, perfect devotion.
When I wrote in comment #12 about bhava, I was referring to that stage. Nine characteristics of such an uttama adhikari devotee are described, with examples, in Chapter 18 of NOD. It is my (theoretical) understanding that in this stage of bhava bhakti, the anarthas of material contamination have already been destroyed. I have no personal realization about this. I am just relating what I have heard.
Further beyond the bhava stage, when one’s attachment and taste are intensified, a devotee reaches the highest goal of pure love of Godhead or “prema”.
It sounds plausible that a devotee practicing sadhana bhakti will experience ecstacy that burns up the last vestiges of material desire, as Tamohara has written, after which point the devotee will reach the stage of devotional service in ecstacy as an uttama adhikari, as Srila Prabhupada describes in Chapters 17 and 18 of NOD.
I am eager to hear evidence from Srila Prabhupada’s books on these points, even though they are beyond my personal level of realization.
O.K. I can’t resist this.
Akruranatha, you’ve written “It sounds plausible that a devotee practicing sadhana bhakti will experience ecstacy that burns up the last vestiges of material desire…” I’m not addressing your point head on, but bringing up an issue of language. Sadhana bhakti either includes or works in conjunction with karma-yoga (depending on perspective), which is integrated with sankirtana-yajna. My point is that bhajana-kriya, or following the order of the guru (refer to Rupa Go’s, adau sraddha, etc.), and specifically sankirtana, works in conjunction with sadhana. In ISKCON, sadhana is often identified only with chanting rounds, worship, and perhaps attending Mangala Aratrika.
Also, here’s a quote I like about bhava. Mahaprabhu inaugurated nama-sankirtana as the yuga-dharma, which gives the four mellows of bhava-bhakti: yuga-dharma pravartaimu nama-sankirtana cari bhava-bhakti diya nacamu bhuvana, “I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age—nama-sankirtana, the congregational chanting of the holy name. I shall make the world dance in ecstasy, realizing the four mellows of loving devotional service.” (Cc Adi 3.19)
Dear prabhu’s.
Please excuse my intrusion here. I am not sure what positive contribution i can make to this discussion. Perhaps I can just mention some observations.
Clearly, the various occupations we see in present society are not quite comparable to the ideal as given by Lord Krsna in the Bhagavad Gita. Due to the less-than-human nature of these exploited or exploiting tendencies which make up the entirety of economic developmental needs, we have to describe them as preverse reflections of the required standard. Likewise, any householder devotee having to fend for the family and kin within the same domain out of neccessity, not choice, cannot be said to be fulfilling his natural varna duty, in accordance with an inclination backed by wise counsel. It follows then, that to ascribe definite varna traits ito devotees earning a living in situations contrary to their instincts is not a true indicator their real status.
Until such a time when conditions exist we may lend superficial descriptions based upon monetary capabilities.To tithe or give laksmi to the temple may or may not again, reflect whether or not the individual is proportionately Krsna conscious. I feel a little uneasy when ones genuine spiritual advancement is measured in terms of percentages. of the monetary kind. Yes, Srila Prabhupada said 50% if possible, but many other factors have to be consdered too. If a devotee worships deities at home and devotes a good deal of time and expense in this effort, or may cultivate sravanam kirtanam as to make tangible spiritual advancement thereof, perhaps lessening his visible contribution to the temple, would that make him any lesser? There may be other legitimate reasons like disability, distance or even incompatibilities and so on.
If a devotee’s spirituality is measured this way, then there is discordance in defining Bhakti yoga and varnasrama dharma. Is not the latter a more external conductor to a devotee’s internal mood? If Krsna consciousness can be practiced anywhere, favorable of course, does it depend on visisbility? Is a full time devotee only a temple devotee? Cannot a householder living outside of the temple be full time?
The principles of varnasrama then must be more applicable to those who require moral and societal assurances to help them get a footing on the rungs of the yoga ladder. Even so, without a valid working model in place, I wonder what headway we can make, except to discuss and give consent.
I sometimes wonder if the implementation of varnasrama-dharma is aimed at the vaisnavas or part-time devotees or general populace. Who are the intended recipients?
As for whether varnasrama-dharma is related to Bhakti-yoga or a yajna centered life seems to be almost identical in approach. Bhakti-yoga could be more accomodating in terms of the nine different processes, whereas yajna could be more specific, in this case book distribution. Either way the sacrifice of chanting Hare Krsna is central to both.
It is an interesting topic, but I do wonder again if all the insight will have any meaningful translation into susstance. Oak trees do grow from acorns though!
Ys, Kesava Krsna dasa.
I wholeheartedly concur with Dayananda that going on book distribution is very blissful and fun for the whole family. For those who used to go out but have not been out in a while, you should try this nice method spearheaded by Vaisesika.
One thing Dayananda said about going out and chanting if you do not want to stop people and try to sell them books: It is really fantastic! It “purifies the ether” and makes book distribution more enjoyable and effective.
The last few times we went out in Santa Cruz, Srutadeva brought a harmonium and chanted. One guy with a banjo case bought a Krishna book from me, then sat down and jammed with Srutadeva for an hour. (When the guy took his banjo out of its case, we saw that it had “All You Need Is Love” written on the drumhead) :-)
We set up a nice, attractive book table with a good variety of books (we find having verticle display racks are much more appealing than laying the books flat on the table).
We light incense and have a little framed picture of Srila Prabhupada, and with a few devotees distributing books together with some kirtan or soft bhajans in the background, it creates a whole vaikuntha atmosphere around the book table. Some of our customers comment how nice it is. Aging former hippies come up and tell us they always loved Hare Krishna and appreciate what we are doing.
We basically present the books on their merit, directly explaining what we find to be so relevant about these books. We don’t have “quotas” and no one is pressured to sell a certain amount of books. We do not even announce individual scores.
We try to connect with our customers and offer to follow up and speak with them about the books later. (I usually give them my own business card along with a temple mantra card). We do not look at them as ways to make money, but as potential devotees and friends. (We do not find people bringing the books back and wanting their money back, or throwing them away.)
We do not try to trick or push people into buying if they are not interested. We look for the “low hanging fruits.”
If someone says “I do not want to buy this book because I am a Christian”, we may suggest that many Christians like Ralph Waldo Emerson and Martin Luther King, Jr. have read the Bhagavad Gita, but we let them know we respect their faith and their decision not to buy. (Those same people may later decide to buy, just to see what it is really about, especially if they found us to be polite and respectful people.)
We never waste time arguing with Christians or those who are inimical to Krishna. There are lots of sincere potential customers who need our attention and we are not out there to argue.
We do not overdo it. If we can only spare 4 hours or even 2 hours on one weekend a month, we just do that much. No one will think the less of you for just coming out a little. Watch out,though, because once you get a taste, you may not want to quit.
I am finding a lot more interest in Krishna and Bhagavad Gita than there used to be back in the 70s (when many Americans had not even heard of Krishna). In one of the four colleges that make up U.C. Santa Cruz, reading the Bhagavad Gita is a requirement.
Lots of young Americans in their teens and twenties have heard something about Krishna and they are curious about it and are happy to part with $5 or $10 for a good book. I like doing Gitas and Krishna books together, so they can get the “two bhagavatams” (i.e., the philosophy spoken by Krishna, and the descriptions of Krishna’s appearance and activities).
Sometimes I tell people who say they know the Gita that in the Gita it says that if you know the transcendental nature of Krishna’s birth and activities you will be liberated from samsara and never take birth again. I then say that Krishna’s transcendental birth and activities are so nicely explained in the Krishna book that just by reading these stories they will understand and become enlightened, fully liberated people.
One line I use is that this Bhagavad Gita is the original Classic work in which Krishna Himself explains yoga, meditation, karma and reincarnation, and that Krishna is known as the greatest authority on yoga. (I use the word “Classic” alot)
In Santa Cruz I have been telling people that the Gita is the essential part of the great Classical Epic Mahabharata, which is much longer than anything written by Homer or Virgil and is the longest poem in the history of the world. I tell them how in the Gita, Krishna explains all of the philosophy of the upanishads and Vedanta in a concise poem of 700 verses that also explains Krishna’s unique position as the supreme Godhead.
After using this spiel (all the while showing nice pictures, of course), I have had young people come up to me and tell me that their friend bought that book that’s part of the “longest poem” and they wanted it, too. :-)
We also set up tables in front of favorable Indian grocery stores. Many of the customers are already Life Members or already have some of Prabhupada’s books. They still like to contribute, many are happy to learn there is an ISKCON temple in town (because they use to visit one back in India), many like to purchase the CD ROM version of the Gita (a hot – selling item)
One of our very enthusiastic newer members, Vyenkatesh (who is a Physics student in the Ph.D. program at Stanford), not only sells books at book tables, but has spearheaded our “smart boxes” program.
“Smart boxes” was an idea that I think originated with Kamalavati dasi in New Vrindaban. We have little book stands with suggested donation prices on the books and a strongbox attached for people to place their donations. Venkatesh keeps finding more locations to put these “smart boxes”, mostly in Indian grocery stores and restaurants. He just goes around keeping them stocked and harvesting the contributions. It works nicely.
The vast majority of our book distributors in ISV (San Jose) have never lived in an ISKCON ashram and are not yet initiated. However, by getting the congregation out on book distribution, we find they get more out of reading and chanting and they quickly get interested in committing to more service and in getting initiated.
I could talk all day about this program. It is so much fun to present Srila Prabhupada’s books to people on their merits.
Also, those devotees who may not have spare time to go out, or who may be shy about stopping strngers and talking to them in public, sometimes are coming forward to sponsor a case of Gitas or otherwise give a donation to purchase books from the BBT for distribution.
Akruranatha Prabhu; Your response much appreciated. You and I are much the same age in this body, and we both play a professional role in our work, so I am very happy that your response was very nice.
My conditoning in regards to lawyers ( liars ) ; well; you can see where I’m coming from. My offense in past was in thinking of your occupation instead of your transcendental position. As well, I was thrown by your, what probably mistakenly, seemed to me, association with the idea of all relgions being equal; this topic already covered somewhat strenously here and in other websites. I’m afraid that I brought some of my biases to the forum.
The book Jiva Dharma has elaborate explanations of the stages of bhakti, and I will make it a point myself to bring forth something further on this topic. There was quite a discussion on this topic elsewhere recently. For now, let me say that the raganuga stage is for those who are inward-oriented, have little regard for rules and regulations although following them all scrupulusly, and who have a taste for service, spontaneously, not merely done because intellectually we see the value. The inwardly directed devotee sits peacefully in his spiritual place, analyzing the sensory information that comes in, while the outwardly oriented soul goes out to the objects of enjoyment or sensation from his spiritual position within the heart, so to speak. The raganuga devotee rapidly acheives deeper and deeper levels of concentration and bliss, his preliminary bhavas become steady and deeper, and eventually full-blown love of Godhead blossoms .
Yes, some devotees speak of bhava occurring after the anarthas are cleared, while others take a tak more like as I described. I would be very interested to hear if Sivarama Maharajah, or any of our dear Godbrothers, can elaborate on this specific?
At Vaisesika’s house last night, H. H. Kesava Bharati Maharaja was saying something very relevant. Unfortunately it was not recorded and it was so far over my head that I cannot properly repeat it here, but I will try.
He was reading from Brhad Bhagavatamrta about Gopa Kumar meeting with Narayana in Vaikuntha, but still feeling attracted to Gopal. Eventually Narayana indicated that Gopa Kumar would not be satisfied in Vaikuntha and he should go to Goloka. Narada Muni then instructed him that he could not go directly to Goloka from Vaikuntha and would have to return to Vraja on earth in order to get there.
Some discussion ensued, and K.B. Maharaja was inspired to make some very interesting observations.
He said that when we do sadhana bhakti in ISKCON (including of course book distribution or carrying out whatever spiritual duties we have been ordered to do), even though we are still in the realm of vaidhi bhakti, we should not misunderstand this to mean our destination is Vaikuntha.
Because we are in the line from Lord Caitanya, the six goswamis, and Srila Prabhupada, even the vidhi or rules and regulations we are following lead us to worshiping Krishna in Goloka. The mantras we chant (including Hare Krishna mantra) and all of the activities we do are such that they will eventually lead us to Krishna’s lotus feet.
(Maharaja also allowed that some devotees, like Murari Gupta or Anupama, may be devotees of Lord Caitanya but still have attraction to worship another form of the Lord, and then Lord Caitanya will accept service in that way as Rama, Narayana, etc. — but that is a side issue)
Here is the best part, which Dayananda will love:
Maharaja said that the only way to reach higher bhakti like raganuga, bhava and prema is to go on sankirtan following in the mood of Lord Caitanya.
He said Lord Caitanya is our istha deva and He is Radha and Krishna but in the mood of a (sankirtan) devotee serving in separation. (!!!)
We must not try to see Krishna, but to act in such a way that He wants to see us. That means, we must act in a way that will please Prabhupada (i.e., by doing nice preaching).
We cannot jump over our spiritual master and try without any authorization to practice nirjana bhajana or siddha pranali meditation or to focus our attention only on certain books and pastimes. [Can anyone seriously imagine Srila Prabhupada being pleased by that?]
We have to follow the path chalked out for us: we should read and discuss *all* of Srila Prabhupada’s books and try to convince others to appreciate these books and this Hare Krishna movement. We need to practice sankirtan on Srila Prabhupada’s order. That is the *only* for us to get to Goloka.
I have tried to give the sum and substance of Maharaja’s statements above, but I cannot do so with the gravity and realization that would do it justice. I only ask the devotees to please forgive me for not having taken a tape recorder.
hare krishna
charity is act of vedic culture.charity should given to the right person at right time and place.it said the househoulder who doesn’t give in charity the house will
be called as a place of ghosts.so,it is very important to give in charity especially grihastas.srila prabhupada says being as a brahmachari already he is fifty percent
liberated then what about grihastas .the only way is to become a devotee of lord krishna and offering all his wealth in the service of lord and giving in charity to
the krishna consiousness preachers. so,that the money will be spent for a right cause and purpose.
balaji gouranga das
I happened to come across this article on a recent search and reviewed some of the dialog.
There is at least one post here that questions whether this type of discussion on varnasrama-dharma will actually produce any tangible results.
Here’s my realization. It has to start somewhere. Through these discussions people (such as myself) become educated. When individuals in our society have a more functional understanding of how varnasrama works then there is a gradual and natural progression into our individual activity and then social structure – just like sambandha evolves into prayojana. This is true individually and then collectively as more people become educated by association.
So I think this topic is worth revisiting again and again at this phase in our movement’s development so that we develop a functional understanding for how to implement varnasrama. I also think that these discussions set a precedent that implementation needs to be discussed in practical ways according to time, place and circumstance so that we don’t become intellectually lazy and try to over-simplify and ‘impersonalize’ this beautiful natural way that humans can live now.
I’ve had a lot of thoughts on varnasrama since I wrote the original article that Dayananda Prabhu commented on. Even better than my thoughts are those offered by His Holiness Bhakti Vidya Purna Maharaja here. This is the first part of three classes which are also available on the same site by searching his name.