Gauragopala dasa: Many have laughed when told their existence in the material world is just the dream condition of the marginal living entity (soul). However, by reading Srila Prabhupadaâs books, we find that the material condition and creation is simply made up of their own self-centred imaginations, thoughts, dreams all over shadowed by the reactions (karma) to their actions that are all a factual reality yet temporary.
This impermanent reality known as the mahat-tattva (material creation) is experienced by first choosing to leave Goloka (The eternal imperishable Kingdom of God), not as oneâs perpetual nitya-siddha or mukta body that is forever there in Goloka beyond the material gross and subtle body, but as their secondary nitya-baddha sub-conscious bodiless state that is only able to have form by entering unlimited material vessels or containers within the mahat-tattva that are all created and manufactured from the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.
Srila Prabhupada â âThis material creation is the spirit soul’s dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Maha-Vishnu, as the Brahma-Samhita describes â âThis material world is created by the dreaming of Maha-Vishnu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creationâ. 4.29.83.http://vedabase.net/sb/4/29/83/en
Srila Prabhupada – âEverything happening within time, which consists of past, present and future, is merely a dream. This is the secret in understanding in all the Vedic literature.â SB. 4.29.2b.
Srila Prabhupada – âOur contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this So this situationâ Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1
Srila Prabhupada – âWhen the dream is finished, we come to another dream: âOh, this is my house. This is my family. This is my bank balance.â This is going on. Dream. One dream at night, one dream at daytime. But who is dreaming? That is the living entity. So his business is different. Not dreaming, daytime dreaming and night-time dreaming. He has to come to the actual platform. That is Krsna consciousness. If he takes to Krsna consciousness, that is his actual life. Otherwise, heâs in the dreamlandâ Bombay, December 27, 1972
Srila Prabhupada – âOur separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment onlyâ. Letter to Australian devotees
Hari Bol – Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
We need to be a little cautious in describing the material energy as a dream. The mayavadis use the expression: brahma satya, jagat mithya. Brahman is real and true, but the material world is false. The vaishnava conception does not say that the material energy is false. It is Krishna’s energy, apara prakriti, but Krishna’s. And everything is resting in Krishna as pearls are strung on a thread.
The dreamlike description is appropriate when describing material consciousness which is forgetful of Krishna. However, when Krishna consciousness arises, then everything is related to Krishna and belongs to Krishna. What we have in our hand, that we can offer to Krishna in service. We know that the mind (mana) is one of Krishna’s inferior material energies, and yet Krishna says: manmana bhava mad bhakto…think of me and become my devotee.
So, we have to be very clear how we can proceed without becoming either impersonalists or overly cynical. This human life gives us the opportunity to reawaken our original Krishna consciousness, and that takes place within this form, even if it is not the final form for the jiva-atma. Pusta Krishna das
Interesting post by Pusta Krishna Prabhu however, it must be made clear that it was previously mentioned that the mahat-tattva or material creation is very real but a temporary manifestation created from the dreams of Maha-Vishnu – “By reading Srila Prabhupadaâs books we find that the material condition and creation is simply made up of their own self-centred imaginations, thoughts and dreams all over shadowed by the reactions (karma) to their actions that are all a factual reality yet temporary”.The dream state of the marginal living entity in the material creation is nothing like the mundane dreams one has in their biological sleeping body.
This is where many misunderstand the dreaming condition of the baddha-jiva condition. The dreaming state simply means one is living in an existence that is temporary, fades and decays and is forgotten, just like a dream one has at night. Nevertheless we know, unlike the dreams we have at night, that our material existence is very real but temporary. However, from the top most platform in Goloka of endless Krishna Consciousness, the material creation from the viewpoint of the nitya-siddha devotee, IS nothing other than a passing insignificant DREAM.
Srila Prabhupada – âOur separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other thingsâ. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami 1972
Srila Prabhupada â âActually, you are not conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Donât you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krishna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourselves always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krishna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadamâ. Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur – “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul’s original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83
Srila Prabhupada â âThe Lord’s dreaming conditions are also factual manifestationsâ. Srimad Bhagavatam 1.16.26-30
This quote is an important point when understanding what a âdreamâ is on the highest platform in Vaishnava teachings. This reference makes it very clear that we cannot compare our mundane biological dreams with the dreams of the baddha-jiva dream condition outside of Goloka.
Within the material creation the nitya-baddha secondary dream state becomes contained in an ethereal body (subtle) then in a biological vessel (gross) as in our case within this material world. Such facilities are provided by Maha-Vishnu so the baddha-jiva can express their mistaken material selfish desires. We understand that on the higher material ethereal heavenly worlds within the mahat-tattva, where the marginal living entity as the baddha-jiva secondary condition, is contained in an ethereal body, all thoughts, dreams and desires are instantaneously on a level of immediate actions.
We see within the heavenly planets of the mahat-tattva and even its Satya-yugas on the middle planetary systems like our earth planet, there is also no difference between âthoughtsâ âdreamsâ and âactionsâ. It is only at the end of the Dwarpa-yuga and the entire Kali-yuga, does ones thoughts, imaginings and dreams of the biological gross body no longer instantly materialize and therefore do not create karma. In this way those trapped in the Kali-yuga have dreams and thoughts that no longer materialize as they would in the Satya-Yuga or the heavenly planets thus we are not punished or reward for our thoughts, dreams and wishes, we are judged only by our actions.
On the other hand within the Vaikunthaâs all thoughts are instant actions of loving devotion within Krishna lila though, when one chooses to think or dream of their own self-importance, they instantly activate their nitya-baddha sub-consciousness and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu that are in the realm of past, present and future.
Srila Prabhupada â âJust like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the “seen” disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original positionâ. April 20, 1972, in Tokyo
When everything is related to Krishna through pure devotional service, then it becomes Spiritual even while in the material creation.
Pushta Krishna Prabhu’s realization is important, This is how I understand it . The dreamlike description is appropriate when describing material consciousness, which is forgetful of Krishna. However, when Krishna consciousness begins to arise even within the baddha-jiva sub-conscious condition trapped within material vessels within the material energy, then everything is related to Krishna and belongs to Krishna and is therefore on the pure spiritual platform beyond the influences of the three modes of material nature (mahat-tattva) and material mundane non-Krishna Conscious dream state of Maha-Vishnu.
What we have in our hand, that we can offer to Krishna in service. We know that the mind (mana) is one of Krishnaâs inferior material energies, and yet Krishna says: manmana bhava mad bhaktoâŠthink of me and become my devotee. In this way, as one begins to re-awaken their Krishna Consciousness via the embodied baddha-jiva condition of consciousness, the material energy is gradually transformed to spiritual energy and becomes an offering to Krishna.
So, we have to be very clear how we can proceed in our Krishna Consciousness while in the material world. This human life gives us the opportunity to re-awaken our original Krishna consciousness, and regain and again become aware of our perpetual nitya-siddha body in Goloka. We must not forget that even in the material creation the presents of pure devotees and aspiring devotees are actually on the spiritual platform beyond the influence of the mahat-tattva and Maya.
Srila Prabhupada – “The spark of soul âoriginallyâ comes from the spiritual world to the material world . . . there is a bona fide method for the attainment of spiritual perfection by the spiritual spark of soul, and, if he is properly guided, then he is very easily sent back home, back to Godhead, where from he originally fell.” – 1968 letter by Prabhupada to Canadian cardiologist Wilfred G. Bigelow.
Hare Krishna, your fallen yet aspiring servant Gauragopala dasa
This is a very good discussion. On the one hand, our forgetfulness of Krishna launches us into a self-centric bubble of disconnected reality, ie disconnected from Krishna. On the other hand, although we are not of this world in terms of our identity truly as “para-prakriti”, we are now tatashta or in the middle, on the shore of reality.
One way to conceive of Krishna consciousness in this plane is that with deep faith we accept that ‘everything is within Krishna, like pearls strung on a thread’. I sometimes take an example from the Srimad Bhagavatam to use to help us see how our life within matter can help our spiritual life. When the issue of how the Kuru Dynasty would be removed from the world before Krishna’s departure in the Battle of Kurukshetra, the example is given how a thorn may be used to remove another thorn that is stuck in the skin. Similarly, and I must admit perhaps even in a faulty way, I use that example to show how we can use this material energy when spiritualized through service, to defeat material consciousness.
The idea is that I want to emphasize in this blog, that there is a risk of salvationism entering when we take the material world as only a dream (and I know that you have not done that). That is the brahma-satya,jagat-mithya pitfall. Rather, we ignore any tendency toward salvation, instead placing loving service as the only necessity for us, and live within the world of Krishna consciousness. Living from inside out, rather than outside in. Utility for service the principle, not self-indulgent independent sense exploitation.
A good discussion, thought provoking, cleansing to the heart, stimulating feelings of separation from Krishna. What more could any hopeful bhakta ask for?
Pusta Krishna das
Pusta Krishna prabu says – “we are not of this world in terms of our identity truly as âpara-prakritiâ, we are now tatashta or in the middle, on the shore of reality”.
Pusta Krishna prabhu says here we are now tatastha. This should be further clarified in this discussion. Actually the marginal living entity is ALWAYS tatastha-sâakti
Tatastha-sâakti is not some region in outer space but is rather the disposition of the marginal living enter which simply translates to âoneâs ability to chooseâ. This is also the meaning of the word âmarginalâ in relation to the jiva-tattva.
The marginal living entities very nature in Goloka is that we are eternally tatastha sâakti or marginal which means we have the free-will to choose to always remain serving Krishna as our perpetual nitya-siddha body, or seek to be independent enjoyers away from Krishna in Goloka by entering the material world as our nitya-baddha dream state.
It is not that Maya sneaks into Vaikuntha and tricks some soul into falling but rather the tendency to forget Krishna is part of our âmarginalâ nature, which also makes us tatastha (having free-will to choose).
We always have that option, a choice, thus we are also called tatastha sâakti. We simply use our free will to choose, and it has nothing to do with Maya. She enters the picture AFTER we have made our choice to enter Her domain, which is the maha-tattva (material) creation of Maha-Vishnu. Free will is eternal even in Goloka and in fact without our âsovereignty as a living beingâ to either forget or remember Krishna, then we would not have any individuality, no independent personality and no ability to love.
Srila Prabhupada – âThat independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldownâ. Mayapur, India, on February 19, 1976,
Professor â âAre there any souls that are always good? …They’re not foolish, they don’t fall down?â
Srila Prabhupada â âMajority, ninety percent, they are always good. They never fall downâ.
Professor â âSo we’re among the ten percent?â
Srila Prabhupada â âYesâ Talk in Los Angeles on June 23, 1975 between Prabhupada and a professor.
Hare Krsna your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
Pusta Krishna prabhu writes – “we can use this material energy when spiritualized through service, to defeat material consciousness”.
Yes, as we begin to re-awaken our Krishna Consciousness within the material dreams of Maha-Vishnu, the material energy is gradually transformed to spiritual energy and becomes an offering to Krishna even though it is all still part of the mahat-tattva dreams of Maha-Vishnu. This realization is important and defeats the impersonalists who say the ‘dream’ creation is false and an illusion. The Vaishnavaâs on the other hand say the mahat-tattva is very real but temporary.
Srila Prabhupada â âAccording to Mayavadi philosophy, this manifested world or material world is mithya or maya, false. Their preaching principle is brahma-satya jagat-mithya. According to them, only the Brahman effulgence is true, and the cosmic manifestation is illusory or false. But according to Vaishnava philosophy, this cosmic manifestation is caused by the Supreme Personality of Godheadâ. â. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âThis conception of the material world is very nicely explained by Srila Rupa Gosvami, who said that renunciation of this material world as illusory or false without knowledge that the material world is also the manifestation of the Supreme Lord is of no practical valueâ. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âThe Vaishnavas are free of attachment to this world because generally the material world is accepted as an object of sense gratification. The Vaishnavas are not in favour of sense gratification; therefore, they are not attached to material activitiesâ. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âThe Vaishnava accepts this material world according to the regulative principles of the Vedic injunctions. Since the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the original cause of everything, the Vaishnava sees everything in relationship with Krsna, even in this material world. By such advanced knowledge, everything becomes spiritualised. In other words, everything in the material world is already spiritual, but due to our lack of knowledge we see things as materialâ. Bhaktivedanta purport of the Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âAs such the Vaishnavas do not take this cosmic manifestation to be false. The Vaishnava philosopher sees everything in this material world in relationship with the Supreme Lordâ. The Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âThe conception of a life of sense gratification is illusion, but the conception of service by the jivatma to the Paramatma, even in this material world, is not at all illusory. A Krsna conscious person is fully aware of this fact, and thus he does not take this material world to be false, but acts in the reality of transcendental service. The devotee therefore sees everything in this material world as an opportunity to serve the Lord. He does not reject anything as material, but dovetails everything in the service of the Lord. Thus a devotee is always in the transcendental position, and everything that he uses becomes spiritually purified by being used in the service of the Lordâ. The Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada â âHow the living entity becomes liberated from the modes of material nature after surrendering unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead is illustrated by a sleeping man within a room. When a man is sleeping, everyone sees that he is present within the room, but actually the man himself is not within that body, for while sleeping a man forgets his bodily existence, although others may see that his body is present. Similarly, a liberated person engaged in devotional service of the Lord may be seen by others to be engaged in the household duties of the material world, but since his consciousness is fixed in Krsna he does not live within this world. His engagements are different, exactly as the sleeping man’s engagements are different from his bodily engagementsâ. The Eighty-seventh Chapter of Krsna, “Prayers by the Personified Vedas.”
Srila Prabhupada – “Of course, everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But, in the present status of our life, we have not only forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship (our nitya-siddha body) with the Lord. Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can âreviveâ that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position.” Introduction to Bhagavad-gita As It Is.
If you revive, regain or re-establish someone who has fallen from a higher position, that means he/she was once âoriginallyâ in that position of nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious awareness. Similarly, if you revive and re-establish an eternal occupation like ones svarupa, that means the âmemoryâ of ones nitya-siddha body is again gradually remembered, re-established and regained. This process of becoming free from the nitya-baddha temporary material dream begins through selfless devotional service to the pure devotees of Lord Krishna Caitanya within this material creation as Pusta Krishna Prabhu has nicely explained.
Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam 8.1.9
Even the impersonal Brahmajoyti attained by impersonalist yogis and jnanis is just another mundane dream state of the baddha-jiva.
Hari Bol your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
The vaishnavas are both great philosophers and compassionate loving souls. And, seeking experience of that knowledge (vijnana), they dive deeply into the wisdom. Krishna describes His Gita as the king of education…because it gives direct perception of the self by realization (BG 9:2), raja-vidya. So while we may gain self-realization through this knowledge, still we hanker for so much more because our identity cannot be separated from Krishna (acintya bhedabheda tattva). The ultimate realization, we know, will come only by the grace of Krishna. bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah (BG 1855), tesam evanukampartham …(BG 10:11). Often we would wonder how some could hear the Holy Names or the profound philosophy of Bhagavad Gita and yet not be moved toward Krishna consciousness as we may have been. The caitya-guru, Sri Paramatma, is the Permitter, revealing Himself as He likes, and He says in measure to our surrender to Him. Remembering how Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu commented while observing an illiterate man with the Gita in his hands crying tears of love…Mahaprabhu heard the man say how he was remembering how Krishna, acting as the Charioteer, drove Arjuna on his chariot onto the field of Kuruksetra. Despite being illiterate, Mahaprabhu labeled the man the “real knower of the Gita”. It is remarkable.
Regarding the issue of identity, that does not change. We are the same identity whether we are in this body or in the spiritual world. But, the consciousness is different, indeed. There in the spiritual world, love and ecstasy are all in all. We do not care to even think about ourselves being overwhelmed by the beauty and extreme sweetness of Sri Krishna. Krishna consciousness is the very environment. We do not disappear or lose our individuality in Krishna consciousness, but rather rasa, sweet exchange of love and ecstasy with Krishna plays on and on, ever-increasing. This is the essential reality of Krishna as the Supreme Enjoyer, Who has expanded His senses through us as well, to increase and taste His beautiful reality (hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktirucyate).
We are so fortunate to have the association of sincere seekers like Gauragopala Prabhu who always writes with great sincerity of purpose. How fortunate we are to have this forum, Dandavats.com, to give us who are immersed in truly “dream-like” activities to be able to re-awaken regularly through Krishna katha as we have here on Dandavats. Pusta Krishnadas
It is very inspiring to read the realizations of Pusta Krishna Prabhu, to leave the mahat-tattva or material creation one has to spiritualise their nitya-baddha consciousness.
Pusta Krishna dasa â âRegarding this issue of ‘identity’ that does not change, we are actually the same identity whether we are in this material body or in the spiritual world. But, the consciousness is different, indeed. There in the spiritual world, love and ecstasy are all in all. We do not care to even think about ourselves being overwhelmed by the beauty and extreme sweetness of Sri Krishna. Krishna consciousness is the very” environmentâ.
Pusta Krishna dasa â âWe do not disappear or EVER lose our individuality in Krishna consciousness, but rather rasa, sweet exchange of love and ecstasy with Krishna plays on and on, ever-increasing. This is the essential reality of Krishna as the Supreme Enjoyer, Who has expanded His senses through us as well, to increase and taste His beautiful reality (hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktirucyate)”.
Understanding how oneâs nitya-siddha body in Goloka is situated for those who have chosen to âdreamâ they are in the material creation, is just like a person who is on his own bed but dreaming he is somewhere and someone else. It is that âdream stateâ which is the ânitya-baddha conscious conditionâ. Actually, he is always on his own bed, even in the dream. Similarly, we are always in Goloka as nitya-siddha even when we âdreamâ or âthinkâ we are in the material creation as nitya-baddha.
Srila Prabhupada – “So to go to Krishna (God) means you will have to acquire your original, spiritual body. The spiritual body is already there, but we are now covered by this material subtle and gross body”. Letter from Srila Prabhupada in 1972 to devotees in Australia
When one is fully Krishna conscious and âawakensâ the memory and âawarenessâ of their svarupa or nitya-siddha (spiritual) bodily relationship with Krishna, the billion or so life times âdreamingâ in the maha-tattva (material world) as nitya-baddha will be no more than a moment. In fact it will be as if they never left.
Srila Prabhupada – âOur contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situationâ Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1 your fallen servant Gauragopala das
Being busy with my work toward organizing medical care for a refugee camp in Haiti (going nicely so far, by the way), I have not looked at this article for some time. It is such a wonderful topic to contemplate. One thing that came to my mind in reading the last comments by Gaurangagopal das, the progression of Krishna consciousness as described by Srila Rupa Goswami came to mind. The foundation of spiritual life is faith, sraddha, and acceptance that Krishna is our Guardian. From this, association with bhaktas, The sadhu-sanga, nourishes the bhakti. Bhajana-kriya, devotional service, takes place, and unwanted things, anartha-nivritti, disappear (Godhead is light, nescience is darkness…where there is Godhead, there is no darkness). Gradually steadiness and taste for bhakti come alive, and lastly the spiritual sentiments of joy and ecstacy leading to prema. Krishna will facilitate our service with an appropriate sentiment (raso vai saha), and an appropriate spiritual form. The entire environment in Krishna consciousness is conscious of Krishna, serving the Center. Self-awareness is replaced by Krishna consciousness, the original consciousness of the jiva soul and all beings. When we enter into that world, either by glimse or by immersion, that reality of Krishna consciousness is so natural and free from fear. It is our Home, and it is the plane when we awaken from our alienated dream-like self-absorbed (false ego) state.
These are all wonderful things to contemplate. Krishna describes that He gives the intelligence to the bhakta by which they can come back to Him (dadami buddhi yogam tam, yena mam upayanti te). We are so fortunate that Krishna and His devotees have come to the prison house of this material world to reform us and bring us back to our Krishna conscious eternal life. Were it not for the mercy of Srila Prabhupad, millions of jiva souls around the world who are now happily serving Krishna…what can you say? Srila Prabhupad’s legacy will live on and on. Hare Krishna. Pusta Krishna das
PustaKrishna dasa – “Self-awareness is replaced by Krishna consciousness, the original consciousness of the jiva soul and all beings. When we enter into that world, either by glimpse or by immersion, that reality of Krishna consciousness is so natural and free from fear. It is our Home, and it is the plane when we awaken from our alienated dream-like self-absorbed (false ego) state”.
What has been written in this incredible discussion is enlightening; the language we each use is little different but the message is the same. I find PustaKrishna Prabhu scholarly realizations as a further education in Krishna Consciousness; it is proof that the association of devotees is so, so important. What a wonderful tool the Internet is.
It is always very enlivening to read his comments on Dandavats. Personally I have always had these views on the jiva-tattva since the early years of ISKCON where I personally associated with Srila Prabhupada and even with PustaKrishna Prabhu in 1976 in Melbourne and India. (see â âAn interesting story from the early days of ISKCONâ http://www.dandavats.com/?p=5003
Our personal realizations are so important however; one must stay within the dominion of our Spiritual Masterâs teachings. The language maybe a little different but the message is unchanged. Srila Prabhupada encourages us to express our realizations in this way –
Srila Prabhupada â âEvery one of you. What is your realization? You write your realization â what you have realized about Krishna. That is required. It is not passive. Always you should be active. Whenever you find time, write. Never mind â two lines, four lines, but you write your realizations. Sravanam, kirtanam. Writing or offering prayers, glories this is one of the functions of a Vaishnava. You are hearing, but you have to write also. Then, writing means smaranam â remembering what you have heard from your spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada Los Angeles 1971
We see the teachings of all past Acaryas through the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, he represents all of them. Reading his books, letters and listening to his lectures are all we really need. As Srila Prabhupada said â âEverything you need to know is in my Booksâ
Jai Srila Prabhupada! Your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa
Indeed, it is a wonderful discussion. Remember, that what we are often trying to express in words is “acintya”, inconceivable by the mundane mind. On the one hand, we accept that (mamaivamsa jiva loke) we are all part of Krishna, we are His, we are within Him. Yet, we have our individual identity (na jayate, na mriyate) forever. In material or conditioned consciousness, being influenced by false ego, ahamkara, we have misguided interests outside of Krishna consciousness. Our senses are engaged for other than pleasing Krishna. On the other hand, in the purified and liberated (“natural”) state of the jiva-atma, there is only Krishna and Krishna interaction (hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate). The jiva soul is thrilled beyond conception (anandam buddhi vardanam), overwhelmed with love and ecstatic exchange with Krishna (raso vai sah).
Acintya bhedabheda tattva…inconceivable. We are so fortunate to have the guidance of Srila Prabhupad. He gave us so much. You can never tire of discussing the topics in his writings. The main point, if anything is worthwhile that I have had to say here, is that the jiva-souls real self-interest is in Krishna and Krishna consciousness, but the ideal of Krishna consciousness virtually runs counter to one trying to establish their “own” separate interest. It may be a consolation, given in the Bhagavad gita, if one is not able to make the transition into faithful devotional life. But, the devotional life is the goal, and the means to that goal, both. Krishna is so kind, He has the desire to enlighten His devotees with some realization so that their faith can deepen and their love be awakened.
We may try to awaken ourselves, we may try to obtain realization, we may try anything…but all is dependent upon the mercy of Krishna. Therefore, we have our Sri Gurudeva to give us shelter and engagement. Then, we much follow Srila Rupa Goswami’s advice, utsahan niscayat dhairyat…enthusiasm patience and determination. Patience is vital. Sometimes we become disenheartened if we don’t get the “juice”. Krishna is not with-holding nectar from us. He knows our hearts, He is our dearmost Friend. We must try to reciprocate with His friendship, and pray to Him for sincerity to awaken, for faith to deepen, for love of Krishna to be uncovered, and for helping us to serve the other vaishnavas who are so very dear to Krishna. All Glories to Srila Prabhupad! Pusta Krishna das
There is a great Gary Larson “The Far Side” cartoon, which shows a group of cows grazing in a pasture, and one of them is looking up with a hilarious, startled expression and saying, “Hey, wait a minute! This is grass! We’ve been eating grass!”
Similarly, transcendentalists are “waking up” to the understanding that this material life of fruitive activity is something futile, insubstantial, incapable of truly satisfying us, unsuited to our real nature. “We are just dreaming!” “We’ve been eating grass!”
Impersonalists only have a partial picture. They know fruitive activities are futile, but they do not know about the real activities of spiritual life. Therefore their renunciation is incomplete, phalgu vairagya. They stop eating grass, but they do not know what they should eat instead. They think of spiritual life as a negation of the illusion. Figuratively, they are fasting.
Devotees know that the temporary, material universe was created by Krishna with a purpose, as part of His srsti-lila, and that we have a real purpose to fulfill even with our “dreaming” bodies here in this temporary world.
Krishna did not allow Arjuna to retire from the battlefield, though we cannot even imagine how difficult it must have been to think of opposing superiors like Drona and Bhisma in battle.
Lord Caitanya did not allow Sanatan Goswami to give up his body in Jagannatha Puri, when it was covered with oozing sores. The Lord told him, “You should not think it is your body, that you may discard it. It is My property and I still have work to do through you. You have to go to Vrndavan, reestablish the holy places, write literatures, etc.”
I have to admit my own tendency to use the idea that “the material world is a dream” to shirk my duties. “Who cares if I am a little negligent?” “It’s only temporary.” “This too will pass.” “It’s just grass. We’ve all been eating grass!”
But that is not the attitude of a real Vaisnava. Srila Prabhupada was “never a lazy fellow.” A Vaisnava takes his work in this world very seriously, because it is Krishna’s work. He is a man (or woman) on a mission, very capable, committed, expert, determined, averse to wasting time, practical. This concentrated activity in serving the guru’s orders can be described as “practical samadhi.” This anxiety about doing our service well is described as “transcendental anxiety.”
And we should demonstrate the same vigor, fortitude and resourcefulness in all our endeavors…
Devotees should be known as serious, capable people, expert in whatever they do.
Because after all, the real joke in the Far Side cartoon is that cows are *supposed* to eat grass. They have specially-designed, ruminant digestive systems that make them perfectly suited to eating grass.
Similarly, we have been given these material natures as humans that are designed to function according to nature’s laws and according to the natures God has given us. We can work, build, farm, trade, lead, organize, marry and raise children, pay our taxes, perform our public duties, just as nondevotees do.
The only difference is one of consciousness. We see things in proper perspective. We have to regulate our senses to perform our duties properly in accordance with scriptural injunctions and avoid sinful life (four prohibitions). We have to learn the art of dedicating everything to the sankirtan mission. We have to see our purpose in life as one of developing our dormant spiritual consciousness, of waking up to our real identity as loving servants of Krishna.
We have to do that with all parts of our beings, with our bodies, our senses, our speech, our hidden, subconscious intentions, everything. We have to do it in “dreaming” as well as in waking, in the office or factory as well as in the temple. We have to do it in our relationships and dealings with others.
Yes, we can appreciate and understand the ideal of the yogi who goes to a secluded place to meditate to become free of the “dreaming” world, but how many of us can do that? It is not necessary. It is not even really desired. This is the age of sankirtan, and the system of hearing and chanting Srila Prabhupada has given us is practical for modern people who live in cities and have jobs and families. It is practical. “A healthy life, as Caitanya wrought.”
We do not want people to think, like Woody Allen in the film “Hannah and Her Sisters,” “Who am I kidding? I cannot become a Hare Krishna.” (It is too strange, too difficult).
We want them to think, “I love Hare Krishnas and associate with them whenever I can. I love prasadam. I love their literature and their cultural mission to spread enlightenment. I want to support it and begin regulating my life as they do.”
So, understanding the world as a dream is good, but we need to understand and play our proper role within this dream.
“Krishnera nitya dasa” means we are His servants wherever we go. Even here in this dream world.
Respected Gauragopala das, I read that report that you referred to above regarding the 1976 visit of Srila Prabhupad to the Melbourne Temple. That was a very ecstatic visit. The kirtans in the temple were glorious, as were the bhaktas. We are not perfect, but we are rightly situated with Krishna and Vaishnava. The events that you describe show that devotees are willing to give their lives for Krishna if necessary. All the while, Sri Krishna is witnessing the intense feelings within our hearts. Our great fortune is that Srila Prabhupad not only is a most qualified Acharya, but he also awakened seriousness within our hearts and minds, giving rise to yearning for God, Sri Krishna, that is the greatest gift of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.
I, too, relish these wonderful topics. When I heard Srila Prabhupad’s explanation about why those men were harassing the devotees, simply saying that it was a sign that the Krishna consciousness movement was having an effect, then I was reminded what His Divine Grace used to say: “The caravan of elephants pass by and the dogs are barking”. Such disturbances, as disconcerting as they might be, were looked upon like that by Srila Prabhupad.
The great benefit of sadhu-sanga, association with devotees, is that one’s hankering for Krishna increases in such association. As such devotional light enters our life, darkness of material consciousness is history. I thank you for such kind opportunities to remember Krishna and Srila Prabhupad again and again. And, we all thank you for taking your service so seriously to protect Srila Prabhupad during his stay in Melbourne.
Pusta Krishna das
The following conversation is between His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and a university student that took place in Los Angeles, in January of 1974.
Student. â âIn your books you say this world is like a dreamâ.
Srila Prabhupada. â âYes. It is a dreamâ.
Student â âHow is it a dream?â
Srila Prabhupada. â âFor example, last night you had some dream, but now it has no value. It is gone. And again, tonight when you sleep, youâll forget all these things and dream. You wonât remember, when you are dreaming tonight, âIâve got my house; Iâve got my wife.â Youâll forget it all. So all of this is a dreamâ.
Student. â âIs it true, or is it not true?â
Srila Prabhupada. â âHow could it be true? At night you forgot it. Do you remember when you sleep that youâve got your wife and youâre sleeping on a bed? When you have gone some three thousand miles away and seen something totally different in your dream, do you remember that youâve got a place to reside in?â
Student â âNoâ.
Srila Prabhupada â âSo this is a dream. Tonight. What you are seeing now will become only a dream, just as what you know it was only a dream. So both are dreams. You are simply a visitor, thatâs all. You are seeing this dream and that dream. You, the spirit soul, are factual. But your material body and the material surroundings you are seeing âthis is dreamâ.
Student. â âBut I have the impression that this experience is true and my dream is not true. What is the difference?â
Srila Prabhupada. â âNo. This experience is all untrue! How could it be true? If it were true, how could you forget it at night? How could you forget it, if it were true? At night do you remember all this?â
Student â âNo. I donât remember.â
Srila Prabhupada â âThen-how could it be true? Just as you donât remember the dream you saw last night and so you call it a âdream,â similarly this experience-because you forget it at night-this is also a dreamâŠ.â
Student â âI have the impressâ
Srila Prabhupada. â âThis is a day dream; that is a night dream. Thatâs all. When you dream at night, then you perceive that as being real. Yes. You think that is real. It is a dream, but you are crying, âThere is a tiger! Tiger! Tiger!â Where is the tiger? But you are seeing it as a fact-a tiger. âIâm being killed by a tiger.â But where is the tiger? âŠOr you dream you are embracing some beautiful girl. Where is that beautiful girl? But actually it is happeningâ.
Student â âIt is happeningâ?
Srila Prabhupada â âIn one sense it is happening, because there is discharge of semen. Nocturnal emission. But where is that girl? Is it not a dream? But similarly, this so-call real-life experience is also a dream.
You are getting the impression of factuality, but it is a dream. Therefore it is called maya-sukhaya, illusory happiness. Your nighttime happiness and your day time are the same thing. At night you are dreaming you are embracing a nice beautiful girl, and there is no such thing.
Similalrly, in the daytime also, whatever âadvancementâ you are making-this also like that. Maya-sukhaya: You are dreaming, âThis process will make happyâ or âThat process is only a dream. You are taking this daydream as reality because the duration is long.
At night when you dream, the duration is just half an hour. But this daydream lasts for twelve-hour dream, and that is half-hour dream-but actually both of them are dreams. Because one is twelve-hour dream, you are accepting it as real. This is call illusionâ.
Student â âIllusionâ.
Srila Prabhupada. â âYesâŠ. You are making a distinction between and animal and yourself, but you are forgetting that just as the animal will die, you will also die. So where is your advancement? Will you remain forever? You will also die. So where is your advancement over an animal?
That is stated in the Vedic literatures. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam-cal samanam etat pasubhir naranam this business âeating, sleeping, sex life, and defending-this is also the animalâs business, and you are doing the same.
So how are you distinct from an animal? You will die; the animal will die. But if you say, âI will die after one hundred years, and this ant will die after one hour,â that does mean that you are in reality. It is a question of time, Or take this huge universe-it will all be destroyed.
As your body will be destroyed, this universe will also be destroyed. Annihilation. Dissolution. Natureâs way-the whole thing will be dissolved.
Therefore, it is a dream. It is a long duration of dream, thatâs all. Nothing else. But the advantage of having this human body is that in this dream, you can realize the reality-God. That is the advantage. So if you donât take advantage of this dream, then you are missing everythingâ.
Student. â âSo Iâm half-asleep?â
Srila Prabhupada. â âYes, that is the situation. Therefore, the Vedic literatures say, uttistha: âGet up! Get up! Get up!â Jagrata: Become awakened!â Prapya varan nibodhata: âNow you have got the opportunity: utilize it.â Tamasi ma jyotir gama:
âDonât stay in darkness; come to the light.â These are Vedic injunctions. And we are teaching the same thing, âReality is here-Krsna. Donât remain in this dark place. Come to the higher consciousnessâ. Los Angeles, in January of 1974.